Re: idiot reponse

2020-02-26 Thread Matthew Petach
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 4:15 PM J. Hellenthal via NANOG 
wrote:

> Wtf kinda one word response is that lol
>


You missed the *very* important second line of the response, which makes
the first, one-word line meaningful.

Go back and read it again.  ;)

Matt



>
> --
>  J. Hellenthal
>
> The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says
> a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
>
> On Feb 26, 2020, at 15:03, Selphie Keller 
> wrote:
>
> 
> postfix =)
>
> /^From: .*@electricforestfestival\.com/ DISCARD
>
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 09:54, Christopher Morrow 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 11:46 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>
>>> I send to nanog-ow...@nanog.org, but I never hear back.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I had sent this privately but I thought/think: nanog-admin@
>>
>> I could totally be wrong :)
>>
>


Re: idiot reponse

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Rousell
On 27/02/2020 00:30, Patrick Schultz wrote:
>
> I've also seen employees leaving companies and their addresses being
> rerouted to the support mailbox.
>

That's a very interesting point. I had not considered it as a possible
cause of this problem.


-- 
Mark Rousell



Re: idiot reponse

2020-02-26 Thread Patrick Schultz
I've also seen employees leaving companies and their addresses being rerouted 
to the support mailbox.

-- 
Patrick

Am 27.02.2020 um 01:25 schrieb Mark Rousell:
> On 26/02/2020 16:24, Randy Bush wrote:
>> act...@nanog.org seems to no longer exist.  how should i be whining
>> about the following?
>>
>> From: Electric Forest Festival 
>> Subject: Forest HQ Has Received Your Message: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber 
>> Suggestions
>> To: ra...@psg.com
>> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:15:25 +
>>
>>   Electric Forest 2020 will take place on June 25-28, 2020.   Forest HQ has 
>> received your email. Help save precious resources by reviewing the 
>> information below and looking up common questions in The Forest Frequently 
>> Asked Questions: Experience.ElectricForestFestival.com  Please contact 
>> Festival Ticketing Support at 855-279-6941 for all issue regarding your 
>> purchase or for account troubleshooting.  Electric Forest is sold out. Lyte 
>> is the only HQ endorsed way to get passes now that it’s sold out.  To know 
>> when all things Electric Forest 2020 are happening sign up to the EF 
>> Newsletter.  Happy Forest!  
>
> This (or what it appears to be) is happening on an increasing number of mail 
> lists. It's not many but it's there I don't know who is behind it or why, but 
> it's an increasing annoyance.
>
> This is a quick summary of what seems to be happening:
> (1) A legitimate company's or organisation's helpdesk email address is signed 
> up to a mail list like this one.
> (2) Every time someone posts to the list, they receive an automated 
> notification from the helpdesk.
> (3) On mail lists where DMARC mitigation is in effect, the notification comes 
> back to the mail list.
> (4) A consistent pattern is that the helpdesk staff seem utterly incapable of 
> unsubscribing themselves from the list. They always seem to need to be 
> unsubscribed by a list admin.
>
> The key question to my mind is how do these helpdesks get signed up at all? 
> Presumably it's not the helpdesk staff themselves signing them up. It would 
> appear that someone, somewhere has found a vulnerability in Mailman (as far 
> as I can recall I've only
> seen this on Mailman lists) and is intentionally signing up legitimate 
> company helpdesks to mail lists.
>
> Lists with an active admin/mod can fix the problem quickly by unsubscribing 
> the helpdesk.
>
> Is it an attempted (rather feeble) DoS on the mail lists affected, on the 
> concept of a mail list, or on the companies affected? I don't know. I can't 
> see any real point to it. But it's happening.
>
>
>
> -- 
> Mark Rousell


Re: idiot reponse

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Rousell
On 26/02/2020 16:24, Randy Bush wrote:
> act...@nanog.org seems to no longer exist.  how should i be whining
> about the following?
>
> From: Electric Forest Festival 
> Subject: Forest HQ Has Received Your Message: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber 
> Suggestions
> To: ra...@psg.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:15:25 +
>
>   Electric Forest 2020 will take place on June 25-28, 2020.   Forest HQ has 
> received your email. Help save precious resources by reviewing the 
> information below and looking up common questions in The Forest Frequently 
> Asked Questions: Experience.ElectricForestFestival.com  Please contact 
> Festival Ticketing Support at 855-279-6941 for all issue regarding your 
> purchase or for account troubleshooting.  Electric Forest is sold out. Lyte 
> is the only HQ endorsed way to get passes now that it’s sold out.  To know 
> when all things Electric Forest 2020 are happening sign up to the EF 
> Newsletter.  Happy Forest!  

This (or what it appears to be) is happening on an increasing number of
mail lists. It's not many but it's there I don't know who is behind it
or why, but it's an increasing annoyance.

This is a quick summary of what seems to be happening:
(1) A legitimate company's or organisation's helpdesk email address is
signed up to a mail list like this one.
(2) Every time someone posts to the list, they receive an automated
notification from the helpdesk.
(3) On mail lists where DMARC mitigation is in effect, the notification
comes back to the mail list.
(4) A consistent pattern is that the helpdesk staff seem utterly
incapable of unsubscribing themselves from the list. They always seem to
need to be unsubscribed by a list admin.

The key question to my mind is how do these helpdesks get signed up at
all? Presumably it's not the helpdesk staff themselves signing them up.
It would appear that someone, somewhere has found a vulnerability in
Mailman (as far as I can recall I've only seen this on Mailman lists)
and is intentionally signing up legitimate company helpdesks to mail lists.

Lists with an active admin/mod can fix the problem quickly by
unsubscribing the helpdesk.

Is it an attempted (rather feeble) DoS on the mail lists affected, on
the concept of a mail list, or on the companies affected? I don't know.
I can't see any real point to it. But it's happening.



-- 
Mark Rousell



Re: idiot reponse

2020-02-26 Thread J. Hellenthal via NANOG
Wtf kinda one word response is that lol

-- 
 J. Hellenthal

The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

> On Feb 26, 2020, at 15:03, Selphie Keller  wrote:
> 
> 
> postfix =)
> 
> /^From: .*@electricforestfestival\.com/ DISCARD
> 
>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 09:54, Christopher Morrow  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 11:46 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>> I send to nanog-ow...@nanog.org, but I never hear back.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> I had sent this privately but I thought/think: nanog-admin@
>> 
>> I could totally be wrong :)  


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature


Re: idiot reponse

2020-02-26 Thread Selphie Keller
postfix =)

/^From: .*@electricforestfestival\.com/ DISCARD

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 09:54, Christopher Morrow 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 11:46 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> I send to nanog-ow...@nanog.org, but I never hear back.
>>
>>
>>
> I had sent this privately but I thought/think: nanog-admin@
>
> I could totally be wrong :)
>


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Nick Hilliard

Randy Bush wrote on 26/02/2020 16:14:

We use plenty of multi-mode, but only in the data centre, between our
own kit, for racks within the same cage.


so you have to stock both single and multi?  hmmm


in-cabinet multimode can make sense, as long as you keep the stock types 
contained, i.e. highly restricted number of transceiver and cable types. 
SR4 + MTP vs LR4 + SMF is a good example here.


Nick


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Simon Leinen
Randy Bush writes:
> since we're at this layer, should i worry about going 3m with dacs at
> low speed, i.e. 10g?  may need to do runs to neighbor rack.

No, 3m is totally fine for passive DAC, never had any issues with those.
(5m should also be fine, we just have less experience with that because
most we use DAC mostly for server/ToR cabling, usually using QSFP(28) to
SFP+/SFP28 break-out cables.)
-- 
Simon.


Re: IPv6 for Verizon FIOS

2020-02-26 Thread Christopher Morrow
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:39 PM j k  wrote:
>
> In Ashburn, VA, Dynamic user, with Ubiquity router performing a proper DHCPv6 
> request for over 3 years. Documented on my Security Onion server showing no 
> response.
>

Yea, it's clearly enabled 'somewhere' (most likely on a few select
edge devices: "GWR" role).
It's enabled for Joe... nor for me (in Reston, va)... I can tcpdump my
edge interface all day long I see zero ip6 packets.

"not deployed"
"in a test setup"
"for 2 yrs means zero plan to actually deploy"

#hopeisnotanoption

> Joe Klein
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:07 PM Christopher Morrow  
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:42 PM Brian Ellwood  wrote:
>> >
>> > https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32136440-Networking-IPv6-working
>>
>> this is from 2yrs ago.
>> there's no evidence this is either progressing or actually working for
>> anything but some test sets.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Enjoy the read
>> >
>> > TLDR they are doing some test deployments in:
>> >
>> > - Ashburn, VA
>> > - Richmond/Midlothian, VA
>> > - Spotsylvania, VA
>> > - Waltham, MA
>> >
>> > “It’s Coming (TM)"
>> >
>> > —
>> > Brian Ellwood
>> > Senior Systems Engineer
>> > INOC Data Centers
>> > O: 518-689-4350
>> >
>> > > On Feb 26, 2020, at 12:05, j k  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Does anyone have a contact at Verizon FIOS?
>> > >
>> > > Please respond off list.
>> > >
>> > > V/R,
>> > >
>> > > Joe Klein
>> > > "inveniet viam, aut faciet" --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 
>> > > 1)
>> > > "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
>> > >
>> >


Re: IPv6 for Verizon FIOS

2020-02-26 Thread j k
In Ashburn, VA, Dynamic user, with Ubiquity router performing a proper
DHCPv6 request for over 3 years. Documented on my Security Onion server
showing no response.

Joe Klein


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:07 PM Christopher Morrow 
wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:42 PM Brian Ellwood  wrote:
> >
> > https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32136440-Networking-IPv6-working
>
> this is from 2yrs ago.
> there's no evidence this is either progressing or actually working for
> anything but some test sets.
>
>
>
> > Enjoy the read
> >
> > TLDR they are doing some test deployments in:
> >
> > - Ashburn, VA
> > - Richmond/Midlothian, VA
> > - Spotsylvania, VA
> > - Waltham, MA
> >
> > “It’s Coming (TM)"
> >
> > —
> > Brian Ellwood
> > Senior Systems Engineer
> > INOC Data Centers
> > O: 518-689-4350
> >
> > > On Feb 26, 2020, at 12:05, j k  wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone have a contact at Verizon FIOS?
> > >
> > > Please respond off list.
> > >
> > > V/R,
> > >
> > > Joe Klein
> > > "inveniet viam, aut faciet" --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II,
> Scene 1)
> > > "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
> > >
> >
>


Re: IPv6 for Verizon FIOS

2020-02-26 Thread Brian Ellwood
> this is from 2yrs ago. there's no evidence this is either progressing or 
> actually working for anything but some test sets.

Correct, hence, “It’s coming (TM)”

However, if you read the thread or even jumped to the end there was a post 
Yesterday 12:48 pm where a residential user in that test footprint confirmed 
IPv6 connectivity on a Ubiquiti edge device.

There are Verizon employees in that 30 page thread discussing it - there’s is 
no official statement or word from Verizon on availability, capability, 
deadline and so forth.

—
Brian Ellwood
Senior Systems Engineer
INOC Data Centers
O: 518-689-4350

> On Feb 26, 2020, at 13:07, Christopher Morrow  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:42 PM Brian Ellwood  wrote:
>> 
>> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32136440-Networking-IPv6-working
> 
> this is from 2yrs ago.
> there's no evidence this is either progressing or actually working for
> anything but some test sets.
> 
> 
> 
>> Enjoy the read
>> 
>> TLDR they are doing some test deployments in:
>> 
>> - Ashburn, VA
>> - Richmond/Midlothian, VA
>> - Spotsylvania, VA
>> - Waltham, MA
>> 
>> “It’s Coming (TM)"
>> 
>> —
>> Brian Ellwood
>> Senior Systems Engineer
>> INOC Data Centers
>> O: 518-689-4350
>> 
>>> On Feb 26, 2020, at 12:05, j k  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have a contact at Verizon FIOS?
>>> 
>>> Please respond off list.
>>> 
>>> V/R,
>>> 
>>> Joe Klein
>>> "inveniet viam, aut faciet" --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1)
>>> "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
>>> 
>> 



Re: IPv6 for Verizon FIOS

2020-02-26 Thread John Covici
I got a note its available for DYNAMIC residential customers only, not
yet for people with static ips.

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:07:11 -0500,
Christopher Morrow wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:42 PM Brian Ellwood  wrote:
> >
> > https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32136440-Networking-IPv6-working
> 
> this is from 2yrs ago.
> there's no evidence this is either progressing or actually working for
> anything but some test sets.
> 
> 
> 
> > Enjoy the read
> >
> > TLDR they are doing some test deployments in:
> >
> > - Ashburn, VA
> > - Richmond/Midlothian, VA
> > - Spotsylvania, VA
> > - Waltham, MA
> >
> > “It’s Coming (TM)"
> >
> > ―
> > Brian Ellwood
> > Senior Systems Engineer
> > INOC Data Centers
> > O: 518-689-4350
> >
> > > On Feb 26, 2020, at 12:05, j k  wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone have a contact at Verizon FIOS?
> > >
> > > Please respond off list.
> > >
> > > V/R,
> > >
> > > Joe Klein
> > > "inveniet viam, aut faciet" --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1)
> > > "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
> > >
> >
> 

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

 John Covici wb2una
 cov...@ccs.covici.com


Re: IPv6 for Verizon FIOS

2020-02-26 Thread Christopher Morrow
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:42 PM Brian Ellwood  wrote:
>
> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32136440-Networking-IPv6-working

this is from 2yrs ago.
there's no evidence this is either progressing or actually working for
anything but some test sets.



> Enjoy the read
>
> TLDR they are doing some test deployments in:
>
> - Ashburn, VA
> - Richmond/Midlothian, VA
> - Spotsylvania, VA
> - Waltham, MA
>
> “It’s Coming (TM)"
>
> —
> Brian Ellwood
> Senior Systems Engineer
> INOC Data Centers
> O: 518-689-4350
>
> > On Feb 26, 2020, at 12:05, j k  wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have a contact at Verizon FIOS?
> >
> > Please respond off list.
> >
> > V/R,
> >
> > Joe Klein
> > "inveniet viam, aut faciet" --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1)
> > "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
> >
>


Re: [External] Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Hunter Fuller
nah. We do up to 10m on knockoff 40G DACs in production. It's no problem.

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 11:44 AM Randy Bush  wrote:

> since we're at this layer, should i worry about going 3m with dacs at
> low speed, i.e. 10g?  may need to do runs to neighbor rack.
>
> randy
>


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Chris Adams
Once upon a time, Coy Hile  said:
> I'd expect that from the ToR -> Servers would be MMF, but that other
> infrastructure cabling would be SMF.
> Even using aftermarket optics, putting single-mode transceivers in
> every server and access port would quickly become cost-prohibitive,
> would it not?

If you are looking to save a buck on the ToR->server connection, why not
just use DAC cables?
-- 
Chris Adams 


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Randy Bush
since we're at this layer, should i worry about going 3m with dacs at
low speed, i.e. 10g?  may need to do runs to neighbor rack.

randy


Re: IPv6 for Verizon FIOS

2020-02-26 Thread Brian Ellwood
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32136440-Networking-IPv6-working

Enjoy the read

TLDR they are doing some test deployments in:

- Ashburn, VA
- Richmond/Midlothian, VA
- Spotsylvania, VA
- Waltham, MA

“It’s Coming (TM)"

—
Brian Ellwood
Senior Systems Engineer
INOC Data Centers
O: 518-689-4350

> On Feb 26, 2020, at 12:05, j k  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have a contact at Verizon FIOS?  
> 
> Please respond off list.
> 
> V/R,
> 
> Joe Klein 
> "inveniet viam, aut faciet" --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1)
> "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
> 



Re: IPv6 for Verizon FIOS

2020-02-26 Thread chris
get ready to wait and keep waiting

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:11 PM j k  wrote:

> Does anyone have a contact at Verizon FIOS?
>
> Please respond off list.
>
> V/R,
>
> Joe Klein
>
> "inveniet viam, aut faciet" --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1)
> "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
>


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Tinka


On 26/Feb/20 19:09, Mike Hammett wrote:

> When you're buying thousands or tens of thousands, you're also not
> shopping off of the FiberStore web site.

Not necessarily :-).

Mark.


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Tinka



On 26/Feb/20 18:56, Brandon Martin wrote:

>   On the fixed side, I have enough trouble convincing folks that APC
> and UPC plugs are different

On that note, I migrated our network from DC to AC in 2007, and that was
a major philosophical drama.

At current job, all Transport kit runs DC for historical reasons. But
when I joined in 2012, I got rid of DC for IP kit and went with AC.

Nowadays, data centres either don't have DC, charge a premium for it, or
you have to build your own DC plant which connects to - you guessed it - AC.

Mark.


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mike Hammett
When you're buying thousands or tens of thousands, you're also not shopping off 
of the FiberStore web site. 


Also, DACs are even cheaper. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Mark Tinka"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 11:05:46 AM 
Subject: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions 




On 26/Feb/20 18:33, Mike Hammett wrote: 



1G 
--- 
MM $6/ea 
SM $7/ea 


10G 
--- 
MM $18/ea 
SM $24/ea 
DAC $9.50-$18/pair (length dependent) 


25G 
--- 
MM $39/ea 
SM $59/ea 
DAC $23-$51/pair (length dependent) 






Not a significant price difference from SM to MM, but DAC is even cheaper. 


When you're buying thousands or 10's of thousands every year, that price 
difference adds up. 

Mark. 



IPv6 for Verizon FIOS

2020-02-26 Thread j k
Does anyone have a contact at Verizon FIOS?

Please respond off list.

V/R,

Joe Klein

"inveniet viam, aut faciet" --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1)
"I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Tinka


On 26/Feb/20 18:33, Mike Hammett wrote:
> 1G
> ---
> MM $6/ea
> SM $7/ea
>
> 10G
> ---
> MM $18/ea
> SM $24/ea
> DAC $9.50-$18/pair (length dependent)
>
> 25G
> ---
> MM $39/ea
> SM $59/ea
> DAC $23-$51/pair (length dependent)
>
>
>
> Not a significant price difference from SM to MM, but DAC is even cheaper.

When you're buying thousands or 10's of thousands every year, that price
difference adds up.

Mark.


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Tinka



On 26/Feb/20 18:30, Warren Kumari wrote:

> Of course, sometimes you don't have the option of SM - you are
> connecting some someone else than they only do MM, or you are
> connecting to a piece of kit which doesn't have replaceable optics, or
> you have legacy cabling which is MM, or... but, the cost of the optics
> these days is not really the limiting factor.

We are not flexible on use of SM for customer links.

Over the years, plenty of customers have requested use of MM, and we
have always insisted our conditions against that.

Mark.


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Brandon Martin

On 2/26/20 11:43 AM, Filip Hruska wrote:
Some NICs don't support SM optics, so even if you would like to run SM 
everywhere, it's not necessarily possible depending on the equipment.
For example, I had issues with some SolarFlare cards which happily take 
10G-SR MM but won't take 10G-LR SM.


Is this because they're dumb, or is there some serious reason?  AFAIK, 
the electrical side of the SFP+ is the same for all 10G-R PHYs.


My philosophy has generally been that all fixed infrastructure installed 
in this era might as well be single-mode.  If I'm just dropping a patch 
cord in a raceway or similar, I'll use multi-mode in many cases.  On the 
fixed side, I have enough trouble convincing folks that APC and UPC 
plugs are different let alone trying to explain why you can plug SM 
optics into MMF and it will (generally) work while the other way around 
does not beyond a few meters and, since SMF can't be gotten rid of 
entirely in fixed infrastructure, I'll take the normalization where I 
can get it.

--
Brandon Martin


Re: idiot reponse

2020-02-26 Thread Christopher Morrow
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 11:46 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I send to nanog-ow...@nanog.org, but I never hear back.
>
>
>
I had sent this privately but I thought/think: nanog-admin@

I could totally be wrong :)


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Fearghas Mckay



> On 26 Feb 2020, at 11:33, Mark Tinka  wrote:
> 
> I'm certain someone from Flex has NANOG chatter on "Promiscuous Mode" :-).

Yes :)

f


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Filip Hruska
It really depends on what you're interconnecting. 

Some NICs don't support SM optics, so even if you would like to run SM 
everywhere, it's not necessarily possible depending on the equipment.
For example, I had issues with some SolarFlare cards which happily take 10G-SR 
MM but won't take 10G-LR SM.

Filip

On 26 February 2020 5:30:56 pm GMT+01:00, Warren Kumari  
wrote:
>On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 11:20 AM Coy Hile  wrote:
>>
>> On 2020-02-26 11:14, Randy Bush wrote:
>> >> We use plenty of multi-mode, but only in the data centre, between
>our
>> >> own kit, for racks within the same cage.
>> >
>> > so you have to stock both single and multi?  hmmm
>> >
>> > randy
>>
>> I'd expect that from the ToR -> Servers would be MMF, but that other
>> infrastructure cabling would be SMF.
>> Even using aftermarket optics, putting single-mode transceivers in
>every
>> server and access port would quickly become cost-prohibitive, would
>it
>> not?
>
>Cisco GLC-SX-MM Compatible 1000BASE-SX SFP 850nm 550m DOM Transceiver
>Module - $6.00 - https://www.fs.com/products/11774.html
>Cisco SFP-GE-L Compatible 1000BASE-LX/LH SFP 1310nm 10km DOM
>Transceiver Module - $7.00 - https://www.fs.com/products/12622.html
>
>Yup, it is $1.00 more for SM, and you need 2 per link, but unless you
>are doing *lots* that's likely not cost-prohibitive. The delta on 10G
>is a bit more ($21 vs $18), but still not crazy-pants territory...
>
>Of course, sometimes you don't have the option of SM - you are
>connecting some someone else than they only do MM, or you are
>connecting to a piece of kit which doesn't have replaceable optics, or
>you have legacy cabling which is MM, or... but, the cost of the optics
>these days is not really the limiting factor.
>
>>
>> --
>> Coy Hile
>> coy.h...@coyhile.com
>
>
>
>-- 
>I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
>idea in the first place.
>This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
>regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
>of pants.
>   ---maf

-- 
Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: idiot reponse

2020-02-26 Thread Mike Hammett
I send to nanog-ow...@nanog.org, but I never hear back. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Randy Bush"  
To: "North American Network Operators' Group"  
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 10:24:03 AM 
Subject: idiot reponse 

act...@nanog.org seems to no longer exist. how should i be whining 
about the following? 

From: Electric Forest Festival  
Subject: Forest HQ Has Received Your Message: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber 
Suggestions 
To: ra...@psg.com 
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:15:25 + 

Electric Forest 2020 will take place on June 25-28, 2020. Forest HQ has 
received your email. Help save precious resources by reviewing the information 
below and looking up common questions in The Forest Frequently Asked Questions: 
Experience.ElectricForestFestival.com Please contact Festival Ticketing Support 
at 855-279-6941 for all issue regarding your purchase or for account 
troubleshooting. Electric Forest is sold out. Lyte is the only HQ endorsed way 
to get passes now that it’s sold out. To know when all things Electric Forest 
2020 are happening sign up to the EF Newsletter. Happy Forest! 



Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mike Hammett
1G 
--- 
MM $6/ea 
SM $7/ea 


10G 
--- 
MM $18/ea 
SM $24/ea 
DAC $9.50-$18/pair (length dependent) 


25G 
--- 
MM $39/ea 
SM $59/ea 
DAC $23-$51/pair (length dependent) 






Not a significant price difference from SM to MM, but DAC is even cheaper. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Coy Hile"  
To: "Randy Bush"  
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 10:19:37 AM 
Subject: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions 

On 2020-02-26 11:14, Randy Bush wrote: 
>> We use plenty of multi-mode, but only in the data centre, between our 
>> own kit, for racks within the same cage. 
> 
> so you have to stock both single and multi? hmmm 
> 
> randy 

I'd expect that from the ToR -> Servers would be MMF, but that other 
infrastructure cabling would be SMF. 
Even using aftermarket optics, putting single-mode transceivers in every 
server and access port would quickly become cost-prohibitive, would it 
not? 

-- 
Coy Hile 
coy.h...@coyhile.com 



Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Tinka



On 26/Feb/20 18:30, Randy Bush wrote:

>
> i wish flexoptix did 400g DACs.  we have two boxes from the same ODM
> with interfaces whose sole pupose is to interconnect the two boxes,
> and the optics are coded for different vendors.  unbelievable.

I'm certain someone from Flex has NANOG chatter on "Promiscuous Mode" :-).

Mark.


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Tinka



On 26/Feb/20 18:19, Coy Hile wrote:

>
> I'd expect that from the ToR -> Servers would be MMF, but that other
> infrastructure cabling would be SMF.

I've been designing in-data-centre cabling between routers with MM since
2007. Back then, there was a real material saving in doing that,
relegating SM to backbone links and customer connections.

Even then, while the savings are not as wild given it makes more sense
to buy optics from 3rd party suppliers in 2020 than you could in 2007,
savings are savings.

Operationally, there is zero issues. As long as you don't exceed the
distance limits of MM, you'll do okay.

> Even using aftermarket optics, putting single-mode transceivers in
> every server and access port would quickly become cost-prohibitive,
> would it not?

The only servers we have running some part of the network infrastructure
are our VMware-based CSR1000v RR's. As they are out-of-path RR's, a
copper optic running Cat-6 is fine. Other servers are running basic
services that don't require fibre, e.g., DNS, TACACS+, e.t.c.

I imagine that if any of our servers needed to go fibre, they'd also run MM.

The only part of our network where SM is the standard (and you won't
find any MM) is our terrestrial and marine Transport infrastructure.

Mark.



Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Warren Kumari
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 11:20 AM Coy Hile  wrote:
>
> On 2020-02-26 11:14, Randy Bush wrote:
> >> We use plenty of multi-mode, but only in the data centre, between our
> >> own kit, for racks within the same cage.
> >
> > so you have to stock both single and multi?  hmmm
> >
> > randy
>
> I'd expect that from the ToR -> Servers would be MMF, but that other
> infrastructure cabling would be SMF.
> Even using aftermarket optics, putting single-mode transceivers in every
> server and access port would quickly become cost-prohibitive, would it
> not?

Cisco GLC-SX-MM Compatible 1000BASE-SX SFP 850nm 550m DOM Transceiver
Module - $6.00 - https://www.fs.com/products/11774.html
Cisco SFP-GE-L Compatible 1000BASE-LX/LH SFP 1310nm 10km DOM
Transceiver Module - $7.00 - https://www.fs.com/products/12622.html

Yup, it is $1.00 more for SM, and you need 2 per link, but unless you
are doing *lots* that's likely not cost-prohibitive. The delta on 10G
is a bit more ($21 vs $18), but still not crazy-pants territory...

Of course, sometimes you don't have the option of SM - you are
connecting some someone else than they only do MM, or you are
connecting to a piece of kit which doesn't have replaceable optics, or
you have legacy cabling which is MM, or... but, the cost of the optics
these days is not really the limiting factor.

>
> --
> Coy Hile
> coy.h...@coyhile.com



-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Randy Bush
> What is more important to us is that the optics are multi-rate. And
> even more important now, is that our 3rd party optics suppliers can
> allow us to code and re-code optics to our heart's content.

i wish flexoptix did 400g DACs.  we have two boxes from the same ODM
with interfaces whose sole pupose is to interconnect the two boxes,
and the optics are coded for different vendors.  unbelievable.

randy


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Brandon Martin

On 2/25/20 10:48 PM, Abhi Devireddy wrote:
L2 rings IMHO seem pretty brittle. I know there are L2 ring products 
like Juniper BTI, which use ERPS and not strictly STP/RSTP to move 
blocking ports, and those seem a little better although it's mostly 
statically configured.


For a strict ring topology like this, I'd certainly consider E-RPS or 
similar over [R]STP if you were going to do this all at L2.  It's a lot 
more "predictable" in my experience insofar as it's harder to shoot 
yourself in the foot by mistuning some knob somewhere and getting 
behavior you don't expect.


That said, I'd be loathe to put 30+ switches on a ring even within the 
same building unless I had little other choice.


One thing that I haven't seen explored in this thread is the idea of 
doing things at L3.  If you've got 4 fibers, you can use Bi-Di optics to 
build a partial mesh/ladder/braid as you go up the building.  That can 
be a mess at L2 with (R)STP, but carving out an IGP area and doing it at 
L3 is often not nearly so ugly.  If you've got L3 switches (which are 
cheap, these days), it may be a good option, though it may also be 
annoying from an IP subnetting POV unless you overlay it with something 
like an IPv4-in-IPv6 core (MAP, 464XLAT, etc.) or an L2-in-IP overlay 
like VXLAN both of which substantially increase the conplexity of the 
situation.


Using CWDM or DWDM with 8-16 channels on either 2 or 4 trunks across 
your 4 fibers to do a more conventional home-run with multi-chassis LAG 
or similar is another reasonable option.


I'd avoid stacking 30+ switches even where you have stacking support 
over fiber especially if the switches aren't in a physical stack.  Too 
much opportunity for split-brain scenarios IMO.


I'd contribute to the "see really hard if you can just drop more fiber 
down the riser" echo chamber.

--
Brandon Martin


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Tinka



On 26/Feb/20 18:14, Randy Bush wrote:

> so you have to stock both single and multi?  hmmm

Optics are dirt cheap. We don't pay the equipment vendors for their
flavour :-).

That said, stocking MM and SM is cheaper than stocking just SM, because
we can reliably predict when/where we shall use either.

For MM, it is always on the same floor, within a space of 1 - 10 racks,
all nicely pinched together.

In the old days, equipment vendors always shipped MM ports before SM
anyway. Over 13 years ago, some line cards only shipped with MM for
10Gbps ports for almost 6 months before SM options were available. We
had the same issue with our first 100Gbps ports as little as 2 years
ago, for MPO cables.

For customer circuits, SM pricing can be scoffed at. What is more
important to us is that the optics are multi-rate. And even more
important now, is that our 3rd party optics suppliers can allow us to
code and re-code optics to our heart's content.

Mark.



idiot reponse

2020-02-26 Thread Randy Bush
act...@nanog.org seems to no longer exist.  how should i be whining
about the following?

From: Electric Forest Festival 
Subject: Forest HQ Has Received Your Message: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber 
Suggestions
To: ra...@psg.com
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:15:25 +

  Electric Forest 2020 will take place on June 25-28, 2020.   Forest HQ has 
received your email. Help save precious resources by reviewing the information 
below and looking up common questions in The Forest Frequently Asked Questions: 
Experience.ElectricForestFestival.com  Please contact Festival Ticketing 
Support at 855-279-6941 for all issue regarding your purchase or for account 
troubleshooting.  Electric Forest is sold out. Lyte is the only HQ endorsed way 
to get passes now that it’s sold out.  To know when all things Electric Forest 
2020 are happening sign up to the EF Newsletter.  Happy Forest!  


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Coy Hile

On 2020-02-26 11:14, Randy Bush wrote:

We use plenty of multi-mode, but only in the data centre, between our
own kit, for racks within the same cage.


so you have to stock both single and multi?  hmmm

randy


I'd expect that from the ToR -> Servers would be MMF, but that other 
infrastructure cabling would be SMF.
Even using aftermarket optics, putting single-mode transceivers in every 
server and access port would quickly become cost-prohibitive, would it 
not?


--
Coy Hile
coy.h...@coyhile.com


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Baldur Norddahl
At the very minimum use bidirectional modules so you will have four
channels. That way you would only have 15 switches on a chain. Also be sure
to configured your STP weight so the cut will be in the middle. So one
fiber will normally be transmitting to 7 switches, the other fiber to the
other 8 switches.

This is still inferior to the WDM solutions proposed, but I fear you have
multimode fiber and might not have that choice.

Regards,

Baldur


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:33 AM Norman Jester  wrote:

> I’m in the process of choosing hardware
> for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate
> any tips.
>
> There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a
> POE switch on each floor using this fiber.
>
> The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy
> chain the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the
> failover side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails
> it doesn’t take the whole string down.
>
> The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would
> not try more than 3 to 5. This is not something I typically do (stacking
> switches). I have fears of STP and/or RSTP issue stacking past Ethernet
> switch to switch limits (if they still exist??)
>
> Is there a device with a similar protocol as the old 3com (now HP IDF)
> stacking capability via fiber?
>
> I’d like to use something inexpensive as its to power ubiquiti wifi on
> each floor.  Ideally if you know something I don’t about ubiquiti switches
> that can do this I’d appreciate knowing.
>
> Norman
>
>


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Randy Bush
> We use plenty of multi-mode, but only in the data centre, between our
> own kit, for racks within the same cage.

so you have to stock both single and multi?  hmmm

randy


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Tinka



On 26/Feb/20 17:43, adamv0...@netconsultings.com wrote:

> On that note would you gents recommend single-mode or multimode fiber for 
> buildings?

Single-mode, for sure. More predictable characteristics when you climb
up the capacity scale, e.g., 10Gbps to 40Gbps to 100Gbps.

We use plenty of multi-mode, but only in the data centre, between our
own kit, for racks within the same cage.

Between floors, multi-mode should be good for anywhere from 50m - 300m
(100Gbps all the way down to 1Gbps), but why risk it?

Mark.


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Baldur Norddahl
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 4:55 PM  wrote:

> On that note would you gents recommend single-mode or multimode fiber for
> buildings?
>
> adam
>
>
Single mode fiber for all new installs. There are only few uses cases where
multimode still saves a little money (100G optics) but otherwise there are
only downsides in my opinion. Single mode on the other hand will always
work no matter what application.

Regards,

Baldur


Re: he.net certificate expiriation

2020-02-26 Thread Dovid Bender
They know about it and when their system admins get in it will be
corrected. It's interesting because all of their other sites (e.g.
https://he.net) has a wild card that is valid till 2021.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 10:44 AM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> The *.he.net cert expired today so the looking glass is inaccessible from
> chrome if anyone here has a contact to rectify
>


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mike Hammett
Only single mode ever. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: adamv0...@netconsultings.com 
To: "Joel Jaeggli" , "Norman Jester"  
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 9:43:00 AM 
Subject: RE: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions 

> Joel Jaeggli 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:46 AM 
> 
> > There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a 
> > POE 
> switch on each floor using this fiber. 
> 
> You didn’t specify if the existing fiber is single or multi-mode however 
> 
On that note would you gents recommend single-mode or multimode fiber for 
buildings? 

adam 




Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mark Tinka



On 26/Feb/20 04:32, Norman Jester wrote:

> The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy 
> chain the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the 
> failover side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails it 
> doesn’t take the whole string down.

Curious - blowing more fibre through the riser is a no-go?

30 floors worth of kit with only two spans is tricky any way you look at
it. It would work, yes, but complexity will go up quite a bit.

Of course, if there is absolutely no chance to run more fibre up the
building, that is that. But if there is, just asking...

Mark.


RE: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread adamv0025
> Joel Jaeggli
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:46 AM
> 
> > There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE
> switch on each floor using this fiber.
> 
> You didn’t specify if the existing fiber is single or multi-mode however 
>
On that note would you gents recommend single-mode or multimode fiber for 
buildings?

adam



Re: [External] Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Hunter Fuller
If you can go fully dynamically routed, Layer 3 only, this problem
becomes much, much easier to solve given the constraints you mention.

Among others, Ruckus switches will stack over fiber, but nowhere near
30 units. I think the max is 12 and I would not recommend going over
8.

If you need L2, consider running it on an overlay, even if that
overlay is just GRE. Again, rings are child's play if you can
eliminate the L2 aspect.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 8:32 PM Norman Jester  wrote:
>
> I’m in the process of choosing hardware
> for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate 
> any tips.
>
> There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE 
> switch on each floor using this fiber.
>
> The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy 
> chain the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the 
> failover side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails it 
> doesn’t take the whole string down.
>
> The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would not 
> try more than 3 to 5. This is not something I typically do (stacking 
> switches). I have fears of STP and/or RSTP issue stacking past Ethernet 
> switch to switch limits (if they still exist??)
>
> Is there a device with a similar protocol as the old 3com (now HP IDF) 
> stacking capability via fiber?
>
> I’d like to use something inexpensive as its to power ubiquiti wifi on each 
> floor.  Ideally if you know something I don’t about ubiquiti switches that 
> can do this I’d appreciate knowing.
>
> Norman
>


Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 145, Issue 25

2020-02-26 Thread Jason Pope
The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would
> not try more than 3 to 5. This is not something I typically do (stacking
> switches). I have fears of STP and/or RSTP issue stacking past Ethernet
> switch to switch limits (if they still exist??)
> >
> > Is there a device with a similar protocol as the old 3com (now HP IDF)
> stacking capability via fiber?
> >
> > I’d like to use something inexpensive as its to power ubiquiti wifi on
> each floor.  Ideally if you know something I don’t about ubiquiti switches
> that can do this I’d appreciate knowing.
> >
> > Norman
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 23:02:27 -0800
> From: Ryan Hamel 
> To: Tim Požár 
> Cc: Norman Jester , "=?utf-8?Q?nanog=40nanog.org?="
> 
> Subject: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions
> Message-ID:
> <1582700307.local-913d815c-cd22-v1.2.1-5f094...@getmailspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I do not recommend doing that, it's 30 members in a single stack. Mine was
> only two, directly connected to each other.
>
> Treat your control plane like your L2, don't extend it farther than
> necessary.
> Ryan
> On Feb 25 2020, at 9:00 pm, Tim Požár  wrote:
> >
> > Also, Juniper switches will stack over fiber. I have deployed Virtual
> > Chassis over multiple IDFs. The VC ports can be (and highly suggested)
> > to be in a ring.
> >
> >
> https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/concept/virtual-chassis-ex4200-overview.html
> >
> https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/task/configuration/virtual-chassis-ex4300-configuring.html
> > On 2/25/20 6:32 PM, Norman Jester wrote:
> > > I’m in the process of choosing hardware
> > > for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d
> appreciate any tips.
> > >
> > > There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put
> a POE switch on each floor using this fiber.
> > > The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and
> daisy chain the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair
> as the failover side of the ring going back to the source so if one device
> fails it doesn’t take the whole string down.
> > > The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I
> would not try more than 3 to 5. This is not something I typically do
> (stacking switches). I have fears of STP and/or RSTP issue stacking past
> Ethernet switch to switch limits (if they still exist??)
> > > Is there a device with a similar protocol as the old 3com (now HP IDF)
> stacking capability via fiber?
> > > I’d like to use something inexpensive as its to power ubiquiti wifi on
> each floor. Ideally if you know something I don’t about ubiquiti switches
> that can do this I’d appreciate knowing.
> > > Norman
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/attachments/20200225/b7b96df7/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> --
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:59:58 +0100
> From: Bill Woodcock 
> To: "nanog@nanog.org" 
> Subject: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> > On 2/25/20 6:32 PM, Norman Jester wrote:
> > I’m in the process of choosing hardware
> > for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d
> appreciate any tips.
> >
> > There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a
> POE switch on each floor using this fiber.
> >
> > The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy
> chain the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the
> failover side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails
> it doesn’t take the whole string down.
> >
> > The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would
> not try more than 3 to 5.
>
> Yeah…  I’d regenerate every five L2 devices as well.  Which just means
> going up to L3 periodically.  Would it work for you to use the first pair
> for daisy-chaining switches on each floor that’s not a multiple of five,
> and then put the switches on the floors that are multiples of five into
> router mode, with a switch-group facing their own floor, but routed ports
> facing other floors?  Then use the second pair as an “express” lane between
> the exit, floor 10, and floor 20, to keep L3 hop-sounds down and provide
> some redundancy?
>
> -Bill
>
> -- next part --
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: signature.asc
> Type: application/pgp-signature
> Size: 833 bytes
> Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP
> URL: <
> http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/attachments/20200226/1eefe090/attachment-0001.sig
> >
>
> End of NANOG Digest, Vol 145, Issue 25
> **
>


he.net certificate expiriation

2020-02-26 Thread Steve Jones
The *.he.net cert expired today so the looking glass is inaccessible from
chrome if anyone here has a contact to rectify


RE: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread adamv0025
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:46 AM
> To: Norman Jester 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Feb 25, 2020, at 18:34, Norman Jester  wrote:
> >
> > I’m in the process of choosing hardware for a 30 story building. If
> > anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate any tips.
> >
> > There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE
> switch on each floor using this fiber.
> 
> In my experience with retrofitting existing structures, if you have access to
> the riser at each floor as it sounds like you do, you would typically drop in 
> a
> new duct,  blow micro duct through it with a branch for each floor, have an
> MDF  or two In a utility spaces  and them you have the ability to reconfigure
> the fiber as necessary to meet your present and future needs.
> 
> You didn’t specify if the existing fiber is single or multi-mode however it is
> unlikely that the was enough slack built into two fiber runs to make 30
> additional splices so that approach seems dubious as a premise.
> 
> As you correctly surmise daisy chaining 30 switches is not an advisable
> network design practice.
> 
+1 to that,
Put your own fiber in and do a star topology to an MDF device.

adam




Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Abhi Devireddy
Hey Norman,
I'm in the middle of a construction project where we've got 50 data rooms in 
one building.
I've researched a lot of different options and we ended up with just home runs.

A couple of items to consider and think about:

  1.  Have you looked into the incremental additional costs associated with 
more fiber? Smallest that we've seen trunk fiber is 6 strands of SM fiber. When 
you look at pre-termed fiber with MTP/MPO connectors, it might be worthwhile to 
have home runs to each floor.
  2.  L2 rings IMHO seem pretty brittle. I know there are L2 ring products like 
Juniper BTI, which use ERPS and not strictly STP/RSTP to move blocking ports, 
and those seem a little better although it's mostly statically configured.

With one pair going up the stack and another coming down, what happens when a 
device in the middle releases some magic smoke? Do you have 2 devices at each 
landing?

Now that I've (maybe?) shot holes in some arguments, my personal preference, in 
a situation like this, would be to use passive DWDM.
With an OADM at each floor, you can easily terminate all the wavelengths at the 
home run location and have "dedicated" L1 paths to each floor. You could use 
the 2nd pair of fiber to even set up some form of link-agg if you so choose.

Another non-optimal option might also be something like GPON, although I've 
stayed away from that.

Passive DWDM would also give you room for expansion and you could have 10Gbe 
optics at each floor which would give you the full bandwidth at each landing.

Hope this helps. I'd be curious if anyone else has ever used DWDM in an 
intra-building scenario.

Thanks,
Abhi


From: NANOG  on behalf of Norman Jester 

Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 8:32 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

I’m in the process of choosing hardware
for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate any 
tips.

There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE 
switch on each floor using this fiber.

The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy chain 
the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the failover 
side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails it doesn’t 
take the whole string down.

The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would not 
try more than 3 to 5. This is not something I typically do (stacking switches). 
I have fears of STP and/or RSTP issue stacking past Ethernet switch to switch 
limits (if they still exist??)

Is there a device with a similar protocol as the old 3com (now HP IDF) stacking 
capability via fiber?

I’d like to use something inexpensive as its to power ubiquiti wifi on each 
floor.  Ideally if you know something I don’t about ubiquiti switches that can 
do this I’d appreciate knowing.

Norman



Help with survey on enterprise network challenges? (updated)

2020-02-26 Thread Joseph Severini
Hi,

My name is Joseph Severini, and I am a PhD student in the Computer
Science Department at Carnegie Mellon University.

I’m working on a research project to identify common operational
challenges in modern enterprise computer networks. I’ve put together a
survey to identify these challenges by analyzing some operational
problems found in the Network Engineering Stack Exchange open-source
dataset. You’ll be given a problem from the dataset and asked some
questions about it.

I would appreciate it if you would consider taking this survey, which
can be found at the link below:

http://cmu.ca1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_dm6i9znuPWlLDN3

The survey should take ~15 minutes. Participation is voluntary, with
no compensation, and all responses are anonymous. You must be at least
18 years old to complete the survey.

I advertised my survey here before, but I wanted to advertise it one
final time. I tweaked the question selection algorithm after feedback
I received last time (people thought the "pain-points" were not
painful enough). If you didn't submit the survey last time, please
consider taking it this time.

Thanks,
Joseph Severini

PhD Student
CMU Computer Science Department


Re: QUIC traffic throttled on AT residential

2020-02-26 Thread Paul Timmins
It's okay though, because we freed up UDP/53 by moving DNS to TCP/443, 
so then we can move HTTPS to UDP/53.


On 2/21/20 6:37 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:

First we moved the entire internet to TCP/443.

Now we propose moving it all to UDP/53.

What’s next? Why not simply eliminate port numbers altogether in favor 
of a single 16-bit client-side unique session identifier.


Owen

On Feb 21, 2020, at 15:20 , Matthew Petach > wrote:




On Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 13:31 Łukasz Bromirski > wrote:



[...]

Now… once we are aware, the only question is — where we go from here?

—
./



Well, it's clear the UDP 443 experiment wasn't entirely successful.

So clearly, it's time to use the one UDP port that is allowed through 
at the top of everyone's ACL rules, and update QUIC in the next 
iteration to use UDP/53.


*THAT* should solve the whole problem, once and for all.

;)

Matt





Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Kaiser, Erich
I would use single fiber CWDM muxing and OADM, then you can get it down to
7-8 switches per fiber.  CWDM single fiber has a max of 9 channels and the
optics are typically less expensive.


Erich Kaiser
The Fusion Network
er...@gotfusion.net


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:43 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> DWDM can be done fairly cheap. Some combination of MUXes and OADM modules
> along the way. One possible solution is:
>
> First floor: https://www.fs.com/products/35887.html
> Every floor between: https://www.fs.com/products/70427.html
> Top floor: https://www.fs.com/products/35887.html
>
> Every floor gets 10G to aggregation switches on the top floor and bottom
> floor. The aggregation switches directly connect via the second pair.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
> 
> --
> *From: *"Ryan Hamel" 
> *To: *"Bradley Burch" 
> *Cc: *nanog@nanog.org
> *Sent: *Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:45:05 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions
>
> How would that work to solve Norman's problem? That sounds like a lot of
> money spending, and setup time, for nothing.
>
> Ryan
>
> On Feb 25 2020, at 8:21 pm, Bradley Burch 
> wrote:
>
>
> Should consider DWDM or GPON and in those look at passive optical
> technologies that can benefit the project.
>
> On Feb 25, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Norman Jester  wrote:
>
> I’m in the process of choosing hardware
> for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate
> any tips.
>
> There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a
> POE switch on each floor using this fiber.
>
> The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy
> chain the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the
> failover side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails
> it doesn’t take the whole string down.
>
> The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would
> not try more than 3 to 5. This is not something I typically do (stacking
> switches). I have fears of STP and/or RSTP issue stacking past Ethernet
> switch to switch limits (if they still exist??)
>
> Is there a device with a similar protocol as the old 3com (now HP IDF)
> stacking capability via fiber?
>
> I’d like to use something inexpensive as its to power ubiquiti wifi on
> each floor. Ideally if you know something I don’t about ubiquiti switches
> that can do this I’d appreciate knowing.
>
> Norman
>
>
>


Re: [EXT] Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Chuck Anderson
After 30 add/drops you may lose too much power.  There is a minimum 1.4dB per 
passthru and 1.3dB per add/drop, 3.5dB per MUX at the ends.

With these SFP+ modules:

https://www.fs.com/products/31238.html

it looks like you would have a 19-20 dB budget to work with.  You may be able 
to get 10 add/drops without amplification.

But they have amps too:

https://www.fs.com/products/72284.html

I'd definitely contact sales and talk to one of their engineers so they can 
design a complete working solution for you.

Are you sure you can't pull more fiber?  It may be cheaper.

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 07:42:23AM -0600, Mike Hammett wrote:
> DWDM can be done fairly cheap. Some combination of MUXes and OADM modules 
> along the way. One possible solution is: 
> 
> 
> First floor: https://www.fs.com/products/35887.html 
> Every floor between: https://www.fs.com/products/70427.html 
> Top floor: https://www.fs.com/products/35887.html 
> 
> 
> Every floor gets 10G to aggregation switches on the top floor and bottom 
> floor. The aggregation switches directly connect via the second pair. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - 
> Mike Hammett 
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Ryan Hamel"  
> To: "Bradley Burch"  
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:45:05 PM 
> Subject: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions 
> 
> 
> How would that work to solve Norman's problem? That sounds like a lot of 
> money spending, and setup time, for nothing. 
> 
> Ryan 
> 
> On Feb 25 2020, at 8:21 pm, Bradley Burch  wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should consider DWDM or GPON and in those look at passive optical 
> technologies that can benefit the project. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 25, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Norman Jester  wrote: 
> 
> I’m in the process of choosing hardware 
> for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate 
> any tips. 
> 
> There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE 
> switch on each floor using this fiber. 
> 
> The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy 
> chain the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the 
> failover side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails it 
> doesn’t take the whole string down. 
> 
> The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would not 
> try more than 3 to 5. This is not something I typically do (stacking 
> switches). I have fears of STP and/or RSTP issue stacking past Ethernet 
> switch to switch limits (if they still exist??) 
> 
> Is there a device with a similar protocol as the old 3com (now HP IDF) 
> stacking capability via fiber? 
> 
> I’d like to use something inexpensive as its to power ubiquiti wifi on each 
> floor. Ideally if you know something I don’t about ubiquiti switches that can 
> do this I’d appreciate knowing. 
> 
> Norman 
> 
> 
> 


Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Mike Hammett
DWDM can be done fairly cheap. Some combination of MUXes and OADM modules along 
the way. One possible solution is: 


First floor: https://www.fs.com/products/35887.html 
Every floor between: https://www.fs.com/products/70427.html 
Top floor: https://www.fs.com/products/35887.html 


Every floor gets 10G to aggregation switches on the top floor and bottom floor. 
The aggregation switches directly connect via the second pair. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Ryan Hamel"  
To: "Bradley Burch"  
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:45:05 PM 
Subject: Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions 


How would that work to solve Norman's problem? That sounds like a lot of money 
spending, and setup time, for nothing. 

Ryan 

On Feb 25 2020, at 8:21 pm, Bradley Burch  wrote: 




Should consider DWDM or GPON and in those look at passive optical technologies 
that can benefit the project. 



On Feb 25, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Norman Jester  wrote: 

I’m in the process of choosing hardware 
for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate any 
tips. 

There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE 
switch on each floor using this fiber. 

The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy chain 
the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the failover 
side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails it doesn’t 
take the whole string down. 

The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would not 
try more than 3 to 5. This is not something I typically do (stacking switches). 
I have fears of STP and/or RSTP issue stacking past Ethernet switch to switch 
limits (if they still exist??) 

Is there a device with a similar protocol as the old 3com (now HP IDF) stacking 
capability via fiber? 

I’d like to use something inexpensive as its to power ubiquiti wifi on each 
floor. Ideally if you know something I don’t about ubiquiti switches that can 
do this I’d appreciate knowing. 

Norman 






Re: Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

2020-02-26 Thread Bill Woodcock
> On 2/25/20 6:32 PM, Norman Jester wrote:
> I’m in the process of choosing hardware
> for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate 
> any tips.
> 
> There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE 
> switch on each floor using this fiber.
> 
> The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy 
> chain the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the 
> failover side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails it 
> doesn’t take the whole string down.
> 
> The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would not 
> try more than 3 to 5.

Yeah…  I’d regenerate every five L2 devices as well.  Which just means going up 
to L3 periodically.  Would it work for you to use the first pair for 
daisy-chaining switches on each floor that’s not a multiple of five, and then 
put the switches on the floors that are multiples of five into router mode, 
with a switch-group facing their own floor, but routed ports facing other 
floors?  Then use the second pair as an “express” lane between the exit, floor 
10, and floor 20, to keep L3 hop-sounds down and provide some redundancy?

-Bill



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