Re: Top-quoting Was: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Winston Polhamus]

+1

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 14, 2019, at 10:37 PM, Stephen Satchell  wrote:
> 
>> On 1/14/19 7:14 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote:
>> Please experience the wonders of the top-quote.  See your local psychedelic 
>> distributor if you are somehow not "experiencing" anything ...
> 
> I experience a savings in time with non-edited top quoting.  If I don't
> see meaningful new content within the first 20 lines, I ignore it as
> worthless...unless it's a topic I'm following closely.
> 
> And, yes, I use a text-only mail reader.  I don't like HTML mail,
> because it's an attack vector for ne'er-do-wells.  As long as the mail
> reader allows "self-clicking" URLs, just NO.
> 

Top-quoting Was: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Stephen Satchell]

On 1/14/19 7:14 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote:
> Please experience the wonders of the top-quote.  See your local psychedelic 
> distributor if you are somehow not "experiencing" anything ...

I experience a savings in time with non-edited top quoting.  If I don't
see meaningful new content within the first 20 lines, I ignore it as
worthless...unless it's a topic I'm following closely.

And, yes, I use a text-only mail reader.  I don't like HTML mail,
because it's an attack vector for ne'er-do-wells.  As long as the mail
reader allows "self-clicking" URLs, just NO.

RE: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Keith Medcalf]

Whenever someone has a "experience" while reading an e-mail message or viewing 
a web page, one has to wonder what sort of drugs they are on ...  It is the LSD 
that provides the "experience", not whether you are viewing an e-mail message 
or a web-page-over-SMTP ...

Please experience the wonders of the top-quote.  See your local psychedelic 
distributor if you are somehow not "experiencing" anything ...

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>-Original Message-
>From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong
>Sent: Monday, 14 January, 2019 15:22
>To: Valdis Kletnieks
>Cc: nanog@nanog.org
>Subject: Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect
>Appliance upgrade is starting
>
>
>
>> On Jan 13, 2019, at 12:11 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:55:54 +0100, Christoffer Hansen said:
>>
>>> (*it is frustrating when content parity between HTML and PLAINTEXT
>>> sections is e-mails is inconsistent. :/ )
>>
>> Back when we were designing MIME,  somebody (Vernon Schryver?)
>stated
>> that multipart/alternative with text/plain and text/html was
>*always* incorrect.
>>
>> If the two parts are semantically equal, then one is superfluous
>and doesn't
>> need to be sent. (Remember bandwidth costs in 1992...)
>>
>> If the two parts aren't semantically equal, then one part is
>deficient at best
>> and actively misleading at worst, and should not be sent.
>
>This involves a number of erroneous assumptions, IMHO…
>
>1. All recipients have the ability to consume either form.
>2. HTML cannot offer a better experience to some recipients while
>remaining semantically
>   equivalent to the plain text content.
>3. The improved recipient experience afforded by HTML has no value
>beyond what can be
>   done in plain text.
>4. The cost of bandwidth will remain fixed at 1992 levels.
>
>While I’m not a huge fan of the various forms of rich text for most
>emails, I do acknowledge that they do sometimes have merit and that
>in those cases, having a plain-text alternative included in the
>message for backwards compatibility with less capable or automated
>email consumers is, IMHO, preferable to not having it and consumes
>very little bandwidth by today’s standards.
>
>Owen

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Owen DeLong]

> On Jan 13, 2019, at 12:11 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:55:54 +0100, Christoffer Hansen said:
> 
>> (*it is frustrating when content parity between HTML and PLAINTEXT
>> sections is e-mails is inconsistent. :/ )
> 
> Back when we were designing MIME,  somebody (Vernon Schryver?) stated
> that multipart/alternative with text/plain and text/html was *always* 
> incorrect.
> 
> If the two parts are semantically equal, then one is superfluous and doesn't
> need to be sent. (Remember bandwidth costs in 1992...)
> 
> If the two parts aren't semantically equal, then one part is deficient at best
> and actively misleading at worst, and should not be sent.

This involves a number of erroneous assumptions, IMHO…

1.  All recipients have the ability to consume either form.
2.  HTML cannot offer a better experience to some recipients while 
remaining semantically
equivalent to the plain text content.
3.  The improved recipient experience afforded by HTML has no value beyond 
what can be
done in plain text.
4.  The cost of bandwidth will remain fixed at 1992 levels.

While I’m not a huge fan of the various forms of rich text for most emails, I 
do acknowledge that they do sometimes have merit and that in those cases, 
having a plain-text alternative included in the message for backwards 
compatibility with less capable or automated email consumers is, IMHO, 
preferable to not having it and consumes very little bandwidth by today’s 
standards.

Owen

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Stacy W. Smith]

On Jan 13, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Christoffer Hansen  
wrote:
> Could you please fix the below type notification e-mails to ALSO be
> available if one ONLY USES PLAIN-TEXT email clients?

Thanks for the feedback. I will make sure this gets forwarded to the correct 
group within Netflix.

--Stacy
(aka sta...@netflix.com )

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Stephen Satchell]

On 1/13/19 8:01 PM, Brian Kantor wrote:
> Clearly, editing inclusions is a lost art.

No, it isn't a lost art.  As you can see, there are some of us who know
perfectly well how to edit, and have e-mail tools that make this easy.
(Using Thunderbird here.)  Smartphone mail programs make excerpting a
hard task, by the nature of the human interface.

Making matters worse, Joe SixPack and Suzie Latchhook are not taught to
do it, because of a despicable lack of BOFH personnel.

(Time to take my gout meds.)

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Brian Kantor]

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 11:24:56PM -0500, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
> The September That Never Ended was so long ago that pretty much
> everybody from before that event is now well into "get off my lawn"
> territory.

Yes, I'm afraid we are.

But I think it's more "get off my net".

...!moskvax!kgbvax!kremvax!brian

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[valdis . kletnieks]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:01:20 -0800, Brian Kantor said:
> Clearly, editing inclusions is a lost art.
>   - Brian

The September That Never Ended was so long ago that pretty much
everybody from before that event is now well into "get off my lawn"
territory.

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Brian Kantor]

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 07:02:43PM -0800, James Downs wrote:
> Now if only we could get everyone to stop top-posting.

The only way you'll get people to stop top-posting is to get them
to stop including every d*mn message in the thread in every posting.

With all that cr*p in there, any response at the bottom is lost.

Clearly, editing inclusions is a lost art.
- Brian

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Jared Mauch]

Yes. It’s still a very effective anti spam technique. 

Sent from my iCar

> On Jan 13, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> People use plain-text e-mail on purpose?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> From: "Christoffer Hansen" 
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2019 1:46:08 PM
> Subject: Fwd: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance 
> upgrade is starting
> 
> Sent to NANOG,
> 
> Anyone from NETFLIX subscribed?
> 
> 
> Could you please fix the below type notification e-mails to ALSO be
> available if one ONLY USES PLAIN-TEXT email clients?
> 
> Currently the notice information is formatted in such a way the
> PLAIN-TEXT section is completely EMPTY.
> ONLY the HTML section contains information.
> 
> (E-mail client on my case is Thunderbird)
> 
> -- 
> Cheers
> 
> Christoffer
> 
>  Forwarded Message 
> Subject: (Netflix/***) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance
> upgrade is starting
> Resent-From: ***
> Date: *** Jan 2019 ***
> From: Netflix 
> Reply-To: no_re...@netflix.com
> To: ***
> 
> 
> 
> Netflix
> 
> 
> Hello ***,
> 
> The scheduled upgrade of your Open Connect Appliance(s) (OCAs) is
> beginning now. The list of affected appliances is:
> 
> IP Address Name Facility
> *** *** ***
> 
> 
> 

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[James Downs]

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 06:01:24PM -0800, Seth Mattinen wrote:

> That's the primary reason I am plain text only: people that think 
> they're being whimsical by picking fonts and colors that are hard to read.

Now if only we could get everyone to stop top-posting.

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Jason Hellenthal via NANOG]

HTML gets converted to text here without images unless I want them the 
power of knowledge and ingenuity goes a long way.

-- 
 J. Hellenthal

The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

> On Jan 13, 2019, at 20:01, Seth Mattinen  wrote:
> 
>> On 1/13/19 2:49 PM, Bryce Wilson wrote:
>> Not to name any names, but there are a few people on this list that for 
>> whatever reason use different fonts or sizes. I like having all of my text 
>> the same size because I can then use the features built into my email client 
>> to change the size as I need for my eyes and the screen I am using. I am 
>> also able to change the font when the email does not already specify one. 
>> More importantly, what is the need to use a different font in your emails? 
>> One of the people that I converse with outside of this list uses a cursive 
>> font which is also in a different color. It’s very hard to read and I see no 
>> need for it at all.
> 
> 
> That's the primary reason I am plain text only: people that think they're 
> being whimsical by picking fonts and colors that are hard to read.

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Seth Mattinen]

On 1/13/19 2:49 PM, Bryce Wilson wrote:

Not to name any names, but there are a few people on this list that for 
whatever reason use different fonts or sizes. I like having all of my text the 
same size because I can then use the features built into my email client to 
change the size as I need for my eyes and the screen I am using. I am also able 
to change the font when the email does not already specify one. More 
importantly, what is the need to use a different font in your emails? One of 
the people that I converse with outside of this list uses a cursive font which 
is also in a different color. It’s very hard to read and I see no need for it 
at all.



That's the primary reason I am plain text only: people that think 
they're being whimsical by picking fonts and colors that are hard to read.

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Bryce Wilson]

I’m fine with HTML emails to some extent (mainly the inclusion of clickable 
links) but I am not a fan of formatting.

Not to name any names, but there are a few people on this list that for 
whatever reason use different fonts or sizes. I like having all of my text the 
same size because I can then use the features built into my email client to 
change the size as I need for my eyes and the screen I am using. I am also able 
to change the font when the email does not already specify one. More 
importantly, what is the need to use a different font in your emails? One of 
the people that I converse with outside of this list uses a cursive font which 
is also in a different color. It’s very hard to read and I see no need for it 
at all.

The final reason that I dislike some HTML emails is because my email reader has 
a dark mode which is much more easy on the eyes. Some formatting, though I am 
unsure what (it appears to me imbedded images), causes the email to display 
with a white background instead of the dark gray that normally shows. This is 
both not nice to look at and out of place with the other emails.

While I don’t use a plain text email reader myself, I know that they are still 
commonly in use and have their place. One example of where I personally use one 
is on a terminal where I am automatically sending emails to interact with some 
email based systems.

Thanks ~ Bryce Wilson, AS202313, EVIX, AS137933/AS209762

> On Jan 13, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes Mike,
> All of my email clients are set to plain text only. 
> 
> Email is for text. Not HTML. Not incredimail. You know that :)
> 
> On Jan 13, 2019, at 14:50, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
>> People use plain-text e-mail on purpose?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP
>> 
>> From: "Christoffer Hansen" 
>> To: nanog@nanog.org
>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2019 1:46:08 PM
>> Subject: Fwd: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance 
>> upgrade is starting
>> 
>> Sent to NANOG,
>> 
>> Anyone from NETFLIX subscribed?
>> 
>> 
>> Could you please fix the below type notification e-mails to ALSO be
>> available if one ONLY USES PLAIN-TEXT email clients?
>> 
>> Currently the notice information is formatted in such a way the
>> PLAIN-TEXT section is completely EMPTY.
>> ONLY the HTML section contains information.
>> 
>> (E-mail client on my case is Thunderbird)
>> 
>> -- 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Christoffer
>> 
>>  Forwarded Message 
>> Subject: (Netflix/***) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance
>> upgrade is starting
>> Resent-From: ***
>> Date: *** Jan 2019 ***
>> From: Netflix 
>> Reply-To: no_re...@netflix.com
>> To: ***
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Netflix
>> 
>> 
>> Hello ***,
>> 
>> The scheduled upgrade of your Open Connect Appliance(s) (OCAs) is
>> beginning now. The list of affected appliances is:
>> 
>> IP Address Name Facility
>> *** *** ***
>> 
>> 
>> 

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Matt Hoppes]

Yes Mike,
All of my email clients are set to plain text only. 

Email is for text. Not HTML. Not incredimail. You know that :)

> On Jan 13, 2019, at 14:50, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> People use plain-text e-mail on purpose?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> From: "Christoffer Hansen" 
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2019 1:46:08 PM
> Subject: Fwd: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance 
> upgrade is starting
> 
> Sent to NANOG,
> 
> Anyone from NETFLIX subscribed?
> 
> 
> Could you please fix the below type notification e-mails to ALSO be
> available if one ONLY USES PLAIN-TEXT email clients?
> 
> Currently the notice information is formatted in such a way the
> PLAIN-TEXT section is completely EMPTY.
> ONLY the HTML section contains information.
> 
> (E-mail client on my case is Thunderbird)
> 
> -- 
> Cheers
> 
> Christoffer
> 
>  Forwarded Message 
> Subject: (Netflix/***) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance
> upgrade is starting
> Resent-From: ***
> Date: *** Jan 2019 ***
> From: Netflix 
> Reply-To: no_re...@netflix.com
> To: ***
> 
> 
> 
> Netflix
> 
> 
> Hello ***,
> 
> The scheduled upgrade of your Open Connect Appliance(s) (OCAs) is
> beginning now. The list of affected appliances is:
> 
> IP Address Name Facility
> *** *** ***
> 
> 
> 

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Christoffer Hansen]

On 13/01/2019 21:11, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
> Back when we were designing MIME,  somebody (Vernon Schryver?) stated
> that multipart/alternative with text/plain and text/html was *always* 
> incorrect.

-_-

> If the two parts are semantically equal, then one is superfluous and doesn't
> need to be sent. (Remember bandwidth costs in 1992...)

I can imagine.

> If the two parts aren't semantically equal, then one part is deficient at best
> and actively misleading at worst, and should not be sent.

In 2019 I would hope this are not the case. Cause Cheap Bandwidth
compared to the 90'ies.

Still not always the case. Sadly. :/

-Christoffer



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

RE: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Keith Medcalf]

On Sunday, 13 January, 2019 12:51, Mike Hammet wrote:

>People use plain-text e-mail on purpose?

There is another kind of e-mail?  Or are you referring to Web-Pages-over-SMTP?

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[valdis . kletnieks]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:55:54 +0100, Christoffer Hansen said:

> (*it is frustrating when content parity between HTML and PLAINTEXT
> sections is e-mails is inconsistent. :/ )

Back when we were designing MIME,  somebody (Vernon Schryver?) stated
that multipart/alternative with text/plain and text/html was *always* incorrect.

If the two parts are semantically equal, then one is superfluous and doesn't
need to be sent. (Remember bandwidth costs in 1992...)

If the two parts aren't semantically equal, then one part is deficient at best
and actively misleading at worst, and should not be sent.

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Christoffer Hansen]

On 13/01/2019 20:50, Mike Hammett wrote:
> People use plain-text e-mail on purpose? 
I do most of the time.

(*it is frustrating when content parity between HTML and PLAINTEXT
sections is e-mails is inconsistent. :/ )

-- 
Christoffer

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[valdis . kletnieks]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 13:50:58 -0600, Mike Hammett said:

> People use plain-text e-mail on purpose? 

Yes.  Next question?

Re: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Mike Hammett]

People use plain-text e-mail on purpose? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Christoffer Hansen"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2019 1:46:08 PM 
Subject: Fwd: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance 
upgrade is starting 

Sent to NANOG, 

Anyone from NETFLIX subscribed? 


Could you please fix the below type notification e-mails to ALSO be 
available if one ONLY USES PLAIN-TEXT email clients? 

Currently the notice information is formatted in such a way the 
PLAIN-TEXT section is completely EMPTY. 
ONLY the HTML section contains information. 

(E-mail client on my case is Thunderbird) 

-- 
Cheers 

Christoffer 

 Forwarded Message  
Subject: (Netflix/***) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance 
upgrade is starting 
Resent-From: *** 
Date: *** Jan 2019 *** 
From: Netflix  
Reply-To: no_re...@netflix.com 
To: *** 



Netflix 


Hello ***, 

The scheduled upgrade of your Open Connect Appliance(s) (OCAs) is 
beginning now. The list of affected appliances is: 

IP Address Name Facility 
*** *** *** 

 

Fwd: (Netflix/GlobalConnect a/s) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance upgrade is starting

[Christoffer Hansen]

Sent to NANOG,

Anyone from NETFLIX subscribed?


Could you please fix the below type notification e-mails to ALSO be
available if one ONLY USES PLAIN-TEXT email clients?

Currently the notice information is formatted in such a way the
PLAIN-TEXT section is completely EMPTY.
ONLY the HTML section contains information.

(E-mail client on my case is Thunderbird)

-- 
Cheers

Christoffer

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:(Netflix/***) Scheduled Open Connect Appliance
upgrade is starting
Resent-From:***
Date:   *** Jan 2019 ***
From:   Netflix 
Reply-To:   no_re...@netflix.com
To: ***



Netflix


Hello ***,

The scheduled upgrade of your Open Connect Appliance(s) (OCAs) is
beginning now. The list of affected appliances is:

IP Address  NameFacility
*** *** ***