Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
In my neck of the woods, critical locations often exist in the middle of nowhere, resulting in underserved facilities, where best effort networks such as metro Ethernet cannot be trusted to remain available 24x7x365. Many times, during prime business hours, I will see a telco metro Ethernet spanning tree convergence which results in my traffic re-routing for 20-30 seconds over my private backup network path, then switching back to the metro Ethernet path after the telco technicians have finished their maintenance. Several times when I have called in a trouble ticket, the telco tech has asked what is the big deal, it was only a 20 second outage?. In the Enterprise environment, a planned spanning tree convergence in the middle of business hours is one of the quickest ways for a network engineer to be relieved of their duties, but apparently the bar is considerably lower in the telco environment. Not only that, but the telco SLAs associated with metro Ethernet are totally bogus, with a best round trip SLA of 20 milliseconds, ranging up to 50 milliseconds for bronze service. For short distances of 100 miles or less (rule of thumb is that light travels over fiber at 0.80 x speed of light, or 1000 miles in 10 milliseconds), an SLA of 20-50 milliseconds amounts to fraud, just another way for the telcos to scam the consumer. The tone of many of the entries on this thread where the user is depicted as being unreasonable, underscores the need for a coordinated national broadband policy in the USA, based upon the Australian model in which the government is building out fiber to every residence and business, no matter where they are located. Regards, David On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Will Orton w...@loopfree.net wrote: We've run into an issue with a customer that has been confounding us for a few months as we try to design what they need. The customer has a location in the relative middle of nowhere that they are trying to build a protected OC3 to. Ultimately, their traffic on it will be packet data (IP/ethernet, not channelized/voice). But they seem to be absolutely 100% set on the idea that they build with Cisco ONS boxes and that they run and control the D1-D12 bytes in order to manage protection switching on the OC3 (and have their DCC channel for management). Since this is the middle of nowhere, we are having to piece it together from a few runs of dark fiber here and there and lit services from about 3 other providers to get from the desired point A to the desired point B. The issues we seem to be hitting are: -We seem to be unable to find anyone who sells lit OC3 with D1-D12 transparency for the client. Sometimes we can get D1-D3, but that's it. -lit OC3/12/48 is ridiculously expensive comapred to 1g ethernet waves or 10g waves (choice LAN/WAN ethernet or OC192) 10g waves are cheap enough that we have entertained the idea of buying them and putting OC-192/muxponders on the ends to provide the OC-3, but even then I'm having trouble finding boxes that will do D1-D12 transparency for client OC-3. Building the whole thing on dark fiber so that we could specify the exact equipment on every hop isn't going to happen, as the protect path is about 1000 miles and the geography is such that we don't really have a market for all the other wasted capacity there would be on that path. Having much more experience with ethernet/packet/MPLS setups, we are trying to get the client to admit that 1g/10g waves running ethernet with QoS would be as good as or better in terms of latency, jitter, and loss for their packet data. So far they will barely listen to the arguments. And then going the next leap and showing them that we could work towards 50ms protection switching with MPLS/BFD/etc packet-based protocols is another stretch. Am I missing something here that my customer isn't, or is it the other way around? -Will
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
This *was* a troll, right...? On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 10:55 AM, david peahi davidpe...@gmail.com wrote: In my neck of the woods, critical locations often exist in the middle of nowhere, resulting in underserved facilities, where best effort networks such as metro Ethernet cannot be trusted to remain available 24x7x365. Many times, during prime business hours, I will see a telco metro Ethernet spanning tree convergence which results in my traffic re-routing for 20-30 seconds over my private backup network path, then switching back to the metro Ethernet path after the telco technicians have finished their maintenance. Several times when I have called in a trouble ticket, the telco tech has asked what is the big deal, it was only a 20 second outage?. In the Enterprise environment, a planned spanning tree convergence in the middle of business hours is one of the quickest ways for a network engineer to be relieved of their duties, but apparently the bar is considerably lower in the telco environment. Not only that, but the telco SLAs associated with metro Ethernet are totally bogus, with a best round trip SLA of 20 milliseconds, ranging up to 50 milliseconds for bronze service. For short distances of 100 miles or less (rule of thumb is that light travels over fiber at 0.80 x speed of light, or 1000 miles in 10 milliseconds), an SLA of 20-50 milliseconds amounts to fraud, just another way for the telcos to scam the consumer. The tone of many of the entries on this thread where the user is depicted as being unreasonable, underscores the need for a coordinated national broadband policy in the USA, based upon the Australian model in which the government is building out fiber to every residence and business, no matter where they are located. Regards, David If service is critical enough to me that 20 second hiccups make a difference, I'll find two providers to provide connectivity to the location via relatively cheap waves, and I'll run link-node protection at my layer to get fast reconvergence in the sub-second range. And I'd warrant it'll still come out cheaper than the government-built costs we see in Australia. I really, really don't think more government intervention is the right answer. Matt
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
Matthew, On Sep 10, 2012, at 4:43 PM, Matthew Petach mpet...@netflight.com wrote: This *was* a troll, right…? I suspect it wasn't. There's some people who equate various types of services with others. I've been following this thread with some head-scratching going on. Some folks think ethernet can only be a metro solution with STP/RSTP/MSTP/VPLS in the cloud of another network. Others realize that saying ethernet as the encoding on the PHY is entirely different. (lan-phy, wan-phy, otu2, otu2e, etc). When it comes to talking SONET vs Ethernet it is good to be very explicit. There are a variety of ways to provide a redundant and protected service with ethernet vs sonet/sdh framing. Some of the carrier provided ethernet products result in weird pricing, or plain fear. I recall one ILEC that got an entire team on the phone with me for an ask about a 100m service purchase, because it was huge to them. Their price reflected it as well :) It was easier to stick with the city fiber network for backhaul as the pricing was sane. - Jared
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On 10/09/2012 21:43, Matthew Petach wrote: If service is critical enough to me that 20 second hiccups make a difference, I'll find two providers to provide connectivity um, what do you mean, two providers? to the location via relatively cheap waves This *is* a troll, right...? just sayin' that not everywhere has functional competition... Nick
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Nick Hilliard n...@foobar.org wrote: On 10/09/2012 21:43, Matthew Petach wrote: If service is critical enough to me that 20 second hiccups make a difference, I'll find two providers to provide connectivity um, what do you mean, two providers? to the location via relatively cheap waves This *is* a troll, right...? just sayin' that not everywhere has functional competition... Nick *heh* Fair enough. I guess it's really a question of what scale you're looking at. Even when building a greenfield datacenter in the middle of an empty field in an out-of-the-way corner of a state with cheap electricity, you can generally find two fiber providers that will run fiber into the location based on the premise of the long-term payback a 50MW datacenter brings with it. At smaller scales, I could see how it could become more challenging to convince a second provider it's worth their while to build out to your location. point taken--thanks! Matt
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
In message CAE_aTPPCPXMN-Rx2zRjG7FcbyDSqaT=gr7hc6+zhrj0pmts...@mail.gmail.com , david peahi writes: In my neck of the woods, critical locations often exist in the middle of nowhere, resulting in underserved facilities, where best effort networks such as metro Ethernet cannot be trusted to remain available 24x7x365. Many times, during prime business hours, I will see a telco metro Ethernet spanning tree convergence which results in my traffic re-routing for 20-30 seconds over my private backup network path, then switching back to the metro Ethernet path after the telco technicians have finished their maintenance. Several times when I have called in a trouble ticket, the telco tech has asked what is the big deal, it was only a 20 second outage?. In the Enterprise environment, a planned spanning tree convergence in the middle of business hours is one of the quickest ways for a network engineer to be relieved of their duties, but apparently the bar is considerably lower in the telco environment. Not only that, but the telco SLAs associated with metro Ethernet are totally bogus, with a best round trip SLA of 20 milliseconds, ranging up to 50 milliseconds for bronze service. For short distances of 100 miles or less (rule of thumb is that light travels over fiber at 0.80 x speed of light, or 1000 miles in 10 milliseconds), an SLA of 20-50 milliseconds amounts to fraud, just another way for the telcos to scam the consumer. The tone of many of the entries on this thread where the user is depicted as being unreasonable, underscores the need for a coordinated national broadband policy in the USA, based upon the Australian model in which the government is building out fiber to every residence and business, no matter where they are located. The NBN is to be delivered over a mixture of fibre (93% of homes), wireless and satellite services[1]. [1] http://www.nbn.gov.au/about-the-nbn/what-is-the-nbn/ Regards, David -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: ma...@isc.org
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On 9/8/12, Måns Nilsson mansa...@besserwisser.org wrote: Subject: Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch? Date: Just the fact that BFD had to be reinvented shows that there is ample reason to prefer the steady-train-of-frames-with-status of SONET/SDH over perhaps-nobody-sent-a-packet-or-the-line-is-dead quagmire of Ethernet -- Not all Ethernet switching implementations are necessarily equal; there are 802.3ah OAM and 802.1ag connectivity fault management / Loopback (MAC ping) / Continuity Check Protocol / Link Trace. (Which aren't much use without management software, however.) There /are/ reasons to prefer SONET for certain networks or applications; so it might (or might not) be a reasonable requirement, it just depends. Price is not one of those reasons; all the added complexity and use of less common equipment has some major costs, not to mention risks, involved if mixing many different service providers' products. SONET comes at a massive price premium per port and switching table entry on hardware modules that are much more expensive than 10g switches, and providers often charge a big premium regardless... Therefore; it is not the least bit surprising that a 10g wave would be massively less expensive in many cases than an OC3 over a long distance between point A and point B. As I see it... if you are thinking of 1000 miles of dark fiber to nowhere to support an OC3, then forget the wasted capacity; the cost of all that dark fiber needed just for them should get added to the customer's price quote for the OC3. Same deal if instead you need an OC48 at various hops to actually carry that OC3 and be able to end-to-end and tunnel the DCC bytes over IP or restrict equipment choices so you can achieve that D1-12 byte transparency -- -JH
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
Subject: Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch? Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2012 at 01:15:35AM -0500 Quoting Jimmy Hess (mysi...@gmail.com): On 9/8/12, Måns Nilsson mansa...@besserwisser.org wrote: Subject: Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch? Date: Just the fact that BFD had to be reinvented shows that there is ample reason to prefer the steady-train-of-frames-with-status of SONET/SDH over perhaps-nobody-sent-a-packet-or-the-line-is-dead quagmire of Ethernet -- Not all Ethernet switching implementations are necessarily equal; there are 802.3ah OAM and 802.1ag connectivity fault management / Loopback (MAC ping) / Continuity Check Protocol / Link Trace. (Which aren't much use without management software, however.) Of course. There /are/ reasons to prefer SONET for certain networks or applications; so it might (or might not) be a reasonable requirement, it just depends. Yes. Price is not one of those reasons; all the added complexity and use of less common equipment has some major costs, not to mention risks, involved if mixing many different service providers' products. SONET comes at a massive price premium per port and switching table entry on hardware modules that are much more expensive than 10g switches, and providers often charge a big premium regardless... Yes. The 6x difference I alluded to was a comparison of line cards for OC192 and 10GE on major league routers, like CRS or T-series. Most of the bits are the same, yet the price \delta is insane. Therefore; it is not the least bit surprising that a 10g wave would be massively less expensive in many cases than an OC3 over a long distance between point A and point B. Especially since it might be possible to get it provisioneed e2e. As I see it... if you are thinking of 1000 miles of dark fiber to nowhere to support an OC3, then forget the wasted capacity; the cost of all that dark fiber needed just for them should get added to the customer's price quote for the OC3. Yup. Same deal if instead you need an OC48 at various hops to actually carry that OC3 and be able to end-to-end and tunnel the DCC bytes over IP or restrict equipment choices so you can achieve that D1-12 byte transparency I'm a simple man. I just want the bitpipe to do IP over. It so happens that the combined engineering of the telco business made for a nice set of signalling bells and whistles that tend to work well on long point-to-point circuits. If not perfectly well, then at least orders of magnitude better than a protocol that was designed to sometimes convey frames over one nautical mile of yellow coax. Then again, the yellow coax has evolved, significantly. -- Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina MN-1334-RIPE +46 705 989668 Didn't I buy a 1951 Packard from you last March in Cairo? signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Måns Nilsson wrote: Still, the stupid f€%€/# that make prices for linecards made me go GE instead of OC48 for the most recent deployment. In Sweden, both vendors claim about 6 times as much, per megabit, for SDH line cards. The once-in-a-lifetime that happened here (took a while though) was WAN PHY for 10GE. All the benefit of SDH at Ethernet cost. When I approached the 40GE/100GE working group about getting a few of the benefits of this into that standard, I was instantly shut down by people who thought WAN PHY was a huge mistake that shouldn't be repeated. The only thing I wanted was to have frames sent all the times so one would get a basic bit error reading, plus having the PHY send some basic information such as I am seeing light and my world looks ok, so we could get PHY based interface-down when there was a fiber cut. But that wasn't to be, so the only way to get this will be to OTN-frame the whole thing I guess. *sigh* -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
Will Orton w...@loopfree.net writes: I've considered using J's PE-4CHOC3-CE-SFP (OC3 emulated SAToP), then I could do it all with gig-e underneath. Does anyone make a cheaper OC3 circuit emulation module or box? Most likely the customer wouldn't believe such a thing is possible and we'd have to put something in the contract allowing them SLA credit if their OC3 suffers too many timing slips or something. And so you find yourself at the intersection of two timeless maxims: 1) The customer is always right, but not everyone needs to be our customer. 2) Don't say no to the customer, let the customer say no thanks. Time to model the cost/benefit/profit margin of having these folks as a customer at all (I'd imagine that this circuit is not the only thing that they buy from you or you'd be running away even today). What are your engineering costs for this trick? Are you passing that on to the customer? You may find it advantageous to do a pricing model where you do circuit emulation on a hope-for-the-best basis and count on a maximum SLA payout every month (and still make money). Then if you fail to pay SLA credits from time to time, that's pure gravy. -r
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
OT, what is the _expected_ latency on each hop/ADM in the SDH/SONET network? HTH, Dan #13685 (RS/Sec/SP) The CCIE troubleshooting blog: http://dans-net.com Bring order to your Private VLAN network: http://marathon-networks.com On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Robert E. Seastrom r...@seastrom.com wrote: Will Orton w...@loopfree.net writes: I've considered using J's PE-4CHOC3-CE-SFP (OC3 emulated SAToP), then I could do it all with gig-e underneath. Does anyone make a cheaper OC3 circuit emulation module or box? Most likely the customer wouldn't believe such a thing is possible and we'd have to put something in the contract allowing them SLA credit if their OC3 suffers too many timing slips or something. And so you find yourself at the intersection of two timeless maxims: 1) The customer is always right, but not everyone needs to be our customer. 2) Don't say no to the customer, let the customer say no thanks. Time to model the cost/benefit/profit margin of having these folks as a customer at all (I'd imagine that this circuit is not the only thing that they buy from you or you'd be running away even today). What are your engineering costs for this trick? Are you passing that on to the customer? You may find it advantageous to do a pricing model where you do circuit emulation on a hope-for-the-best basis and count on a maximum SLA payout every month (and still make money). Then if you fail to pay SLA credits from time to time, that's pure gravy. -r
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
Subject: Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch? Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 10:50:31PM +1000 Quoting Julien Goodwin (na...@studio442.com.au): A few of the engineers at $DAYJOB still try and claim SONET is easier to troubleshoot, but that hasn't been my practical experience. With ethernet it's something like: - Layer 1 - light levels (DoM on nearly everything) - Layer 1 - link pulse - Layer 2 - can I send frames SONET it's, in practice: - Layer 1 - light levels (DoM on newer kit, SOL on older) - Layer 2 - Seemingly random collection of alarms - Layer 2 - Is PPP up? Just the fact that BFD had to be reinvented shows that there is ample reason to prefer the steady-train-of-frames-with-status of SONET/SDH over perhaps-nobody-sent-a-packet-or-the-line-is-dead quagmire of Ethernet -- I have run pretty large (for sweden) networks over SDH (POS linecards on top of waves, not a full SDH system) and essentially similar networks as GE over waves, and I truly prefer the failure modes and analysis tools in SDH to the guesswork and afterthought patches of alohanet.. Still, the stupid f€%€/# that make prices for linecards made me go GE instead of OC48 for the most recent deployment. In Sweden, both vendors claim about 6 times as much, per megabit, for SDH line cards. This can't really make sense. As others have said doing a diverse 1/10g ethernet quote and a protected SONET quote may be worthwhile, and adding a 20% pad to the SONET one for staff training may also be perfectly justifiable. Maybe training is more expensive (it takes some CPU to parse SLOF/SLOS and PLOP etc) but it leads to lower OPEX since the Maybe factor is essentially gone. Operationally it is quite worthwhile to say I have SLOS in my far end, which means somebody pulled a patch worngly in your just terminated maintenance window. instead of The line is dead, can you please check something? to your circuit provider. Yeah, SDH and similar probably will die, but cheap aint good. Only. -- Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina MN-1334-RIPE +46 705 989668 Is this going to involve RAW human ecstasy? signature.asc Description: Digital signature
RE: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
Does anyone make a cheaper OC3 circuit emulation module or box? Maybe Cisco ME 3600X 24CX Switch or Cisco ASR 903 Router adam
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On 07/09/12 02:38, Will Orton wrote: Having much more experience with ethernet/packet/MPLS setups, we are trying to get the client to admit that 1g/10g waves running ethernet with QoS would be as good as or better in terms of latency, jitter, and loss for their packet data. So far they will barely listen to the arguments. And then going the next leap and showing them that we could work towards 50ms protection switching with MPLS/BFD/etc packet-based protocols is another stretch. Am I missing something here that my customer isn't, or is it the other way around? A few of the engineers at $DAYJOB still try and claim SONET is easier to troubleshoot, but that hasn't been my practical experience. With ethernet it's something like: - Layer 1 - light levels (DoM on nearly everything) - Layer 1 - link pulse - Layer 2 - can I send frames SONET it's, in practice: - Layer 1 - light levels (DoM on newer kit, SOL on older) - Layer 2 - Seemingly random collection of alarms - Layer 2 - Is PPP up? Sure being able tell a provider that our kit is showing a particular alarm can sometimes be helpful, but for every time that's been helpful I've seen multiple circuits down for timing, often for no explainable reason (I have atomic standards at home, and still can't explain a few of the cases I've seen). As others have said doing a diverse 1/10g ethernet quote and a protected SONET quote may be worthwhile, and adding a 20% pad to the SONET one for staff training may also be perfectly justifiable. Also other then the ONS15300 series (which I'm amazed haven't been discontinued) I can see nothing that actually offers OC3 line ports, building something new using those today seems like using a 2500 as a console server, sure for a lab or demo perhaps, but otherwise I'm staying well away from them.
Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
We've run into an issue with a customer that has been confounding us for a few months as we try to design what they need. The customer has a location in the relative middle of nowhere that they are trying to build a protected OC3 to. Ultimately, their traffic on it will be packet data (IP/ethernet, not channelized/voice). But they seem to be absolutely 100% set on the idea that they build with Cisco ONS boxes and that they run and control the D1-D12 bytes in order to manage protection switching on the OC3 (and have their DCC channel for management). Since this is the middle of nowhere, we are having to piece it together from a few runs of dark fiber here and there and lit services from about 3 other providers to get from the desired point A to the desired point B. The issues we seem to be hitting are: -We seem to be unable to find anyone who sells lit OC3 with D1-D12 transparency for the client. Sometimes we can get D1-D3, but that's it. -lit OC3/12/48 is ridiculously expensive comapred to 1g ethernet waves or 10g waves (choice LAN/WAN ethernet or OC192) 10g waves are cheap enough that we have entertained the idea of buying them and putting OC-192/muxponders on the ends to provide the OC-3, but even then I'm having trouble finding boxes that will do D1-D12 transparency for client OC-3. Building the whole thing on dark fiber so that we could specify the exact equipment on every hop isn't going to happen, as the protect path is about 1000 miles and the geography is such that we don't really have a market for all the other wasted capacity there would be on that path. Having much more experience with ethernet/packet/MPLS setups, we are trying to get the client to admit that 1g/10g waves running ethernet with QoS would be as good as or better in terms of latency, jitter, and loss for their packet data. So far they will barely listen to the arguments. And then going the next leap and showing them that we could work towards 50ms protection switching with MPLS/BFD/etc packet-based protocols is another stretch. Am I missing something here that my customer isn't, or is it the other way around? -Will
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On the surface this makes me want to cry. I could be missing something as well. On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Will Orton w...@loopfree.net wrote: We've run into an issue with a customer that has been confounding us for a few months as we try to design what they need. The customer has a location in the relative middle of nowhere that they are trying to build a protected OC3 to. Ultimately, their traffic on it will be packet data (IP/ethernet, not channelized/voice). But they seem to be absolutely 100% set on the idea that they build with Cisco ONS boxes and that they run and control the D1-D12 bytes in order to manage protection switching on the OC3 (and have their DCC channel for management). Since this is the middle of nowhere, we are having to piece it together from a few runs of dark fiber here and there and lit services from about 3 other providers to get from the desired point A to the desired point B. The issues we seem to be hitting are: -We seem to be unable to find anyone who sells lit OC3 with D1-D12 transparency for the client. Sometimes we can get D1-D3, but that's it. -lit OC3/12/48 is ridiculously expensive comapred to 1g ethernet waves or 10g waves (choice LAN/WAN ethernet or OC192) 10g waves are cheap enough that we have entertained the idea of buying them and putting OC-192/muxponders on the ends to provide the OC-3, but even then I'm having trouble finding boxes that will do D1-D12 transparency for client OC-3. Building the whole thing on dark fiber so that we could specify the exact equipment on every hop isn't going to happen, as the protect path is about 1000 miles and the geography is such that we don't really have a market for all the other wasted capacity there would be on that path. Having much more experience with ethernet/packet/MPLS setups, we are trying to get the client to admit that 1g/10g waves running ethernet with QoS would be as good as or better in terms of latency, jitter, and loss for their packet data. So far they will barely listen to the arguments. And then going the next leap and showing them that we could work towards 50ms protection switching with MPLS/BFD/etc packet-based protocols is another stretch. Am I missing something here that my customer isn't, or is it the other way around? -Will
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On 06/09/2012 17:38, Will Orton wrote: The customer has a location in the relative middle of nowhere that they are trying to build a protected OC3 to. Not sure if I see the problem here. Show them the bill for an OC3 service, and then show them the bill for the equivalent ethernet service. This usually works for me. If they want to pay for OC3 when there's no compelling reason to, who are you to argue? Nick
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Nick Hilliard n...@foobar.org wrote: On 06/09/2012 17:38, Will Orton wrote: The customer has a location in the relative middle of nowhere that they are trying to build a protected OC3 to. Not sure if I see the problem here. Show them the bill for an OC3 service, and then show them the bill for the equivalent ethernet service. This usually works for me. If they want to pay for OC3 when there's no compelling reason to, who are you to argue? (remember, of course, to pad that bill by 8% so you profit more on the more expensive link... go telecom think!)
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 06:00:37PM +0100, Nick Hilliard wrote: Not sure if I see the problem here. Show them the bill for an OC3 service, and then show them the bill for the equivalent ethernet service. This usually works for me. If they want to pay for OC3 when there's no compelling reason to, who are you to argue? Nick Yes, of course the response is, figure out how to make the OC3 cheaper. :) So we're rapidly approaching a response of you've engineered yourself into a corner, take it or leave it. I just can't see how to get OC3 D1-D12 tunneled through without doing it as a mix of OC-48 and dark fiber for the entire path and specifying lots of complicated boxes just to get those bytes through. That cost is an order of magnitude more than just buying OC3 from multiple carriers (who can't tunnel D1-D12), which is a magnitude more than buying mpls-based gig-e or gig-e wave. I wasn't around (well, I was just a T1/DS3 customer) when all the OC3/12/48 SONET networks were built 10-15 years ago. I suppose they were all built directly on the fiber (maybe with WDM but no layer1.5-2 muxing) and the provider was always the one who handled protection switching? I've considered using J's PE-4CHOC3-CE-SFP (OC3 emulated SAToP), then I could do it all with gig-e underneath. Does anyone make a cheaper OC3 circuit emulation module or box? Most likely the customer wouldn't believe such a thing is possible and we'd have to put something in the contract allowing them SLA credit if their OC3 suffers too many timing slips or something. -Will
Re: Are people still building SONET networks from scratch?
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Will Orton w...@loopfree.net wrote: . I suppose they were all built directly on the fiber (maybe with WDM but no layer1.5-2 muxing) and the provider was always the one who handled protection switching? or protection at the optical layer isn't as predictable for all aspects as L3 'protection' is... or something.
