Re: End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study)
Once upon a time, William Herrin said: > Ordinary ionization-based smoke detectors use a 10-year lithium > battery, which is about the same lifespan as the americium-based > detector circuit as it begins to decay into neptunium. Also, some detectors are wired to household 120VAC service, so the battery is a backup, not primary, power source. I think this is required in modern residential building codes. My house was built 30 years ago and has this. I think larger homes even connect all the detectors together (so one detector going off can trigger all to alarm). And for typical 9V replaceable battery models, the "change the battery twice a year" bit is not based on the actual load, but just trying to get people to think about it (and maybe then getting it changed once a year, which is perfectly fine and maybe even still more often than needed). -- Chris Adams
Re: End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study)
This is because there is only enough undecayed Americium in the 10-YO smoke detectors to supply radioactive boyscouts with reactor fuel :) -mel > On Jan 13, 2021, at 11:49 PM, b...@theworld.com wrote: > > > On January 14, 2021 at 04:56 j...@baylink.com (Jay R. Ashworth) wrote: >> Well, it probably gets way worse: if it's a "permanent" battery, it will be >> harder to find, and harder to replace... > > No, you don't replace the permanent batteries in these 10 year smoke > detectors, you toss the whole smoke detector and buy a new one. Heroic > efforts aside. > > So you don't need to find the right battery. > > FWIW many smoke detectors bought in the past 10-15 years (I dunno but > something like that) even with typical replaceable batteries have some > sort of timer in them so when they hit 10 years they begin beeping in > a slightly different pattern (like two short beeps every 60 seconds) > and replacing the battery doesn't help. It just begins doing that on > the fresh battery until you figure out that you need to toss the > detector and buy a new one. > > Ran into that, looked it up on their web site as I was confused why a > new battery wasn't helping and they confirmed that means the detector > has expired buy a new one. > > I assume these 10 year sealed smoke detectors somehow came out of > that. > >> >> - Original Message - >>> From: "William Herrin" >>> To: "jra" >>> Cc: b...@theworld.com, nanog@nanog.org >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 11:52:47 PM >>> Subject: Re: End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and >>> Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study) >> >>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:58 PM Jay R. Ashworth wrote: >>>> Last time I looked, consumer residential smoke detectors were still running >>>> off 9V alkaline batteries, which are expected to run the device for 6 >>>> months >>>> of 1/99 duty cycle (or less, probably *way* less). >>> >>> Ordinary ionization-based smoke detectors use a 10-year lithium >>> battery, which is about the same lifespan as the americium-based >>> detector circuit as it begins to decay into neptunium. >>> >>> You may now resume your argument over how much battery drain is too much. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Bill Herrin >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/ >> >> -- >> Jay R. Ashworth Baylink >> j...@baylink.com >> Designer The Things I Think RFC >> 2100 >> Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover >> DII >> St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 >> 1274 > > -- >-Barry Shein > > Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | > http://www.TheWorld.com > Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD > The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Re: End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study)
On January 14, 2021 at 04:56 j...@baylink.com (Jay R. Ashworth) wrote: > Well, it probably gets way worse: if it's a "permanent" battery, it will be > harder to find, and harder to replace... No, you don't replace the permanent batteries in these 10 year smoke detectors, you toss the whole smoke detector and buy a new one. Heroic efforts aside. So you don't need to find the right battery. FWIW many smoke detectors bought in the past 10-15 years (I dunno but something like that) even with typical replaceable batteries have some sort of timer in them so when they hit 10 years they begin beeping in a slightly different pattern (like two short beeps every 60 seconds) and replacing the battery doesn't help. It just begins doing that on the fresh battery until you figure out that you need to toss the detector and buy a new one. Ran into that, looked it up on their web site as I was confused why a new battery wasn't helping and they confirmed that means the detector has expired buy a new one. I assume these 10 year sealed smoke detectors somehow came out of that. > > - Original Message - > > From: "William Herrin" > > To: "jra" > > Cc: b...@theworld.com, nanog@nanog.org > > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 11:52:47 PM > > Subject: Re: End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and > > Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study) > > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:58 PM Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > >> Last time I looked, consumer residential smoke detectors were still > >> running > >> off 9V alkaline batteries, which are expected to run the device for 6 > >> months > >> of 1/99 duty cycle (or less, probably *way* less). > > > > Ordinary ionization-based smoke detectors use a 10-year lithium > > battery, which is about the same lifespan as the americium-based > > detector circuit as it begins to decay into neptunium. > > > > You may now resume your argument over how much battery drain is too much. > > > > Regards, > > Bill Herrin > > > > > > -- > > Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/ > > -- > Jay R. Ashworth Baylink > j...@baylink.com > Designer The Things I Think RFC > 2100 > Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover > DII > St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 > 1274 -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study)
(Topic at hand was just building an emergency alert system into smoke detectors rather than try to come up with some complex internet-oriented design.) On January 14, 2021 at 03:56 j...@baylink.com (Jay R. Ashworth) wrote: > Last time I looked, consumer residential smoke detectors were still running > off 9V alkaline batteries, which are expected to run the device for 6 months > of 1/99 duty cycle (or less, probably *way* less). Look again, as I said in the OP most consumer smoke detectors today are sealed ten year, can't replace the battery (well, not without surgery.) I've no idea off-hand what they're using inside tho it's probably not difficult to find out, $10 and a hammer if nothing else. > > An Energizer 9v is rated for 8.4VDC in the very general vicinity of 500mAh. > > > How does that compare to other factors like ambient temperature which > > also affects battery life but we mostly consider "in the noise"? > > A lot. Increasing the alert count from the 1 or 2 it probably is on most > smoke alarms to 2 or 3 a *week*, with LOUD analog speaker alert playback is > going to change that duty cycle, probably, to something like 10/90. > [ All numbers pulled out of my butt for illustration, but probably within > half an order of magnitude. ] I don't understand what you're designing but all I was suggesting was a smoke detector with a built in RF switch which upon hearing the magic signal started squawking "EMERGENCY ALERT!" or similar, perhaps with a coded word or two like "EMERGENCY TORNADO ALERT!" or perhaps a brief suggestion to consult your favorite emergency medium immediately (TV, radio, phone, religious text, etc.) Or perhaps that would be understood if it ever starts squawking "EMERGENCY ALERT!" or similar. Some of them now just start barking "EMERGENCY! EMERGENCY! FIRE! FIRE! GET OUT OF THE HOUSE" over and over. I hear them go off nearby fairly regularly so that rings in my head I'm not making it up. > > > Could we make the battery just a little more powerful? How much power > > would a bit of circuitry waiting for a "turn on! there's a new message > > coming in!" need? > > Well, parsing for EAS on the receiver is going to make its drain non-trivial, > too, I think. > > But there are "increasing the battery replacement frequency" problems *and* > "increasing the battery capacity and hence price, not to mention general > availability" problems balancing that out. > > Any way you play it, it has to be an optional model, not a general takeover > of the field, I suspect, or the "well we just won't bother anymore" factor > takes over. But none of these power problems etc applies to any of the other proposed solutions? Phones etc? Or internet connections in general? Meh, I'd like to hear the thoughts of a smoke detector product engineer. My WAG is the only major objection would be that they're already neck deep in regulatory compliance and OMG this would add another layer of that, new orgs to answer to, new paperwork, etc. But so what else is new, ask marketing if it'd be worthwhile anyhow. > Cheers, > -- jra > -- > Jay R. Ashworth Baylink > j...@baylink.com > Designer The Things I Think RFC > 2100 > Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover > DII > St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 > 1274 -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Re: End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study)
Well, it probably gets way worse: if it's a "permanent" battery, it will be harder to find, and harder to replace... - Original Message - > From: "William Herrin" > To: "jra" > Cc: b...@theworld.com, nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 11:52:47 PM > Subject: Re: End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and > Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study) > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:58 PM Jay R. Ashworth wrote: >> Last time I looked, consumer residential smoke detectors were still running >> off 9V alkaline batteries, which are expected to run the device for 6 months >> of 1/99 duty cycle (or less, probably *way* less). > > Ordinary ionization-based smoke detectors use a 10-year lithium > battery, which is about the same lifespan as the americium-based > detector circuit as it begins to decay into neptunium. > > You may now resume your argument over how much battery drain is too much. > > Regards, > Bill Herrin > > > -- > Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/ -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Re: End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study)
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:58 PM Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > Last time I looked, consumer residential smoke detectors were still running > off 9V alkaline batteries, which are expected to run the device for 6 months > of 1/99 duty cycle (or less, probably *way* less). Ordinary ionization-based smoke detectors use a 10-year lithium battery, which is about the same lifespan as the americium-based detector circuit as it begins to decay into neptunium. You may now resume your argument over how much battery drain is too much. Regards, Bill Herrin -- Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
End-user Alert Delivery (was Re: NDAA passed: Internet and Online Streaming Services Emergency Alert Study)
- Original Message - > From: b...@theworld.com > On January 4, 2021 at 21:19 valdis.kletni...@vt.edu (Valdis Klētnieks) wrote: > > First, that means your smoke alarm batteries run down faster, which is > > a major issue. > > That's the sort of argument I label "all sign, no magnitude". > > How much faster? If it took one minute of battery life off a 10 year > battery would that be a problem? 30 minutes? Well, let's address that. Last time I looked, consumer residential smoke detectors were still running off 9V alkaline batteries, which are expected to run the device for 6 months of 1/99 duty cycle (or less, probably *way* less). An Energizer 9v is rated for 8.4VDC in the very general vicinity of 500mAh. > How does that compare to other factors like ambient temperature which > also affects battery life but we mostly consider "in the noise"? A lot. Increasing the alert count from the 1 or 2 it probably is on most smoke alarms to 2 or 3 a *week*, with LOUD analog speaker alert playback is going to change that duty cycle, probably, to something like 10/90. [ All numbers pulled out of my butt for illustration, but probably within half an order of magnitude. ] > Could we make the battery just a little more powerful? How much power > would a bit of circuitry waiting for a "turn on! there's a new message > coming in!" need? Well, parsing for EAS on the receiver is going to make its drain non-trivial, too, I think. But there are "increasing the battery replacement frequency" problems *and* "increasing the battery capacity and hence price, not to mention general availability" problems balancing that out. Any way you play it, it has to be an optional model, not a general takeover of the field, I suspect, or the "well we just won't bother anymore" factor takes over. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
