Re: Internet mauled by bears
On 20/09/11 7:15 AM, Jason Baugher wrote: Horses are okay, but you have to tie things to the wire so they can see it. They're too dumb to remember where it is, apparently. This has nothing to do with the horse's ability to see or remember where the fence it. It has to do with the value (both financial and emotional) the owner places on the animal, and the ensuing costs if it breaks the fence. Horses can get hurt quite easily, vet bills can run into hundreds or thousands of dollars quite quickly. Most horse owners will spend far more than the replacement cost of the animal in vet bills and husbandry to heal it when it gets injured, because the animal has a member of the household status in their lives and can't easily be replaced by a similar animal. So they flag wire fences to help the horse avoid getting hurt. Then there's liability. In many states, if a horse gets out on the road and gets hit, the horse owner is liable for the damages to the car and occupants. If someone in the car is injured or killed (likely if the horse is hit head-on and comes thru the windshield) the liability costs can be significant, run into millions of dollars. For this reason, many equestrian insurance policies require that electric fencing be flagged. Other livestock aren't as likely to cause fatal injuries to car occupants if they are hit, because the animal's body is lower to the road, less likely to come over the hood. jc
Re: Internet mauled by bears
while we still lived on the farm, two vallies away was gordon, who ran a dairy farm, milked, and delivered around coos and curry counties twice a week. he told of deciding to go down to the big city, san francisco. so he put good clothes on and packed a suitcase and headed south (a long day drive). he said that when he got to san francisco, he was amazed that people were walking around in farm coveralls like those he left at home. all the country boy engineers here make me think of gordon's story. randy
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On 9/22/2011 9:58 AM, JC Dill wrote: On 20/09/11 7:15 AM, Jason Baugher wrote: Horses are okay, but you have to tie things to the wire so they can see it. They're too dumb to remember where it is, apparently. This has nothing to do with the horse's ability to see or remember where the fence it. It has to do with the value (both financial and emotional) the owner places on the animal, and the ensuing costs if it breaks the fence. Horses can get hurt quite easily, vet bills can run into hundreds or thousands of dollars quite quickly. Most horse owners will spend far more than the replacement cost of the animal in vet bills and husbandry to heal it when it gets injured, because the animal has a member of the household status in their lives and can't easily be replaced by a similar animal. So they flag wire fences to help the horse avoid getting hurt. Then there's liability. In many states, if a horse gets out on the road and gets hit, the horse owner is liable for the damages to the car and occupants. If someone in the car is injured or killed (likely if the horse is hit head-on and comes thru the windshield) the liability costs can be significant, run into millions of dollars. For this reason, many equestrian insurance policies require that electric fencing be flagged. Other livestock aren't as likely to cause fatal injuries to car occupants if they are hit, because the animal's body is lower to the road, less likely to come over the hood. jc That's interesting to know. It's also interesting to note that other animals, with the possible exception of sheep, will not run through an electric fence once they know that it is there. Sheep do it intentionally.
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On 9/22/2011 8:31 AM, Jason Baugher wrote: On 9/22/2011 9:58 AM, JC Dill wrote: [re: horses] Other livestock aren't as likely to cause fatal injuries to car occupants if they are hit, because the animal's body is lower to the road, less likely to come over the hood. That's interesting to know. It's also interesting to note that other animals, with the possible exception of sheep, will not run through an electric fence once they know that it is there. Sheep do it intentionally. Domesticated sheep are born with vague intelligence, but this is gone by the time they are adults. There can be no speaking of intention, because they are incapable. A lamb bounces around, playful and amusing, and if it sees a fence, it *stops* short of the fence. Sheep will run straight into the fence, and snap their necks, if at the front of a herd. Been there. Seen it. Sheep are stupid. Really. -- ...most of us have as our claim to fame the ability to talk to inanimate objects and convince them they want to listen to us. Valdis Kletnieks
RE: Internet mauled by bears
Can we take this offline? I don't believe livestock behavior patterns have much operational content. Thanks, Chuck -Original Message- From: Jason Baugher [mailto:ja...@thebaughers.com] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 11:31 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Internet mauled by bears On 9/22/2011 9:58 AM, JC Dill wrote: On 20/09/11 7:15 AM, Jason Baugher wrote: Horses are okay, but you have to tie things to the wire so they can see it. They're too dumb to remember where it is, apparently. This has nothing to do with the horse's ability to see or remember where the fence it. It has to do with the value (both financial and emotional) the owner places on the animal, and the ensuing costs if it breaks the fence. Horses can get hurt quite easily, vet bills can run into hundreds or thousands of dollars quite quickly. Most horse owners will spend far more than the replacement cost of the animal in vet bills and husbandry to heal it when it gets injured, because the animal has a member of the household status in their lives and can't easily be replaced by a similar animal. So they flag wire fences to help the horse avoid getting hurt. Then there's liability. In many states, if a horse gets out on the road and gets hit, the horse owner is liable for the damages to the car and occupants. If someone in the car is injured or killed (likely if the horse is hit head-on and comes thru the windshield) the liability costs can be significant, run into millions of dollars. For this reason, many equestrian insurance policies require that electric fencing be flagged. Other livestock aren't as likely to cause fatal injuries to car occupants if they are hit, because the animal's body is lower to the road, less likely to come over the hood. jc That's interesting to know. It's also interesting to note that other animals, with the possible exception of sheep, will not run through an electric fence once they know that it is there. Sheep do it intentionally.
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:55:04 EDT, Chuck Church said: Can we take this offline? I don't believe livestock behavior patterns have much operational content. What's the mathematical difference between modelling a sheep stampede and modelling a slashdotting? The word is sheeple for a reason... pgpkVvnByCr6R.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Internet mauled by bears
I'd believe that regarding the cattle. When the company I used to work for years ago was focused more on residential services including dial-up, we had a customer who constantly complained about problems getting or staying connected to our dial-up service. When one of our techs was on the phone discussing the problem, he heard this steady ticking noise. When asked what that noise was, the customer told him it was interference from his electric fence for his cows. Long story short, the electric fence was causing all the noise on the phone line messing up his connection. Now the funny part is he found turning the fence off would improve his connectivity, but he said whenever he did that his cows would escape! So, there might be some truth to that. :) -Vinny -Original Message- From: PC [mailto:paul4...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 1:25 AM To: Jason Baugher Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Internet mauled by bears On the other hand, I've been told that during a power outage cattle can sometimes smell that the electricity is gone... all their noses start sniffing after one in the pasture starts... and make a run for it... Probably is an old wives tale... Yeah, Sheep or Goat proof fence? Good luck. Here they just let them roam and the sheep herders follow them... until they bring them out of the mountains for the winter. On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Jason Baugher ja...@thebaughers.comwrote: On 9/20/2011 2:37 AM, Joel jaeggli wrote: On 9/19/11 18:49 , Richard Barnes wrote: And if they turn up the voltage on the fence high enough, dinner could be cooked by the time the crew gets there! montana experience says: cows have rather thick skin, sheep come with insulation, and bison will go through anything that gets in their way including 3 x 6 diameter corner posts and 4 strands of barbed and 2 hot wires. horses on the other hand are pansies. livestock always ends up on the other side of the fence... In Illinois: Cows actually train to electric fence (hot wire) fairly well. They don't like being shocked too much. Once they get used to the fence, you can shut it off and they'll stay in for weeks because they won't even attempt it. That said, sometimes you get a cow that just really wants to be difficult and will go through anything. That cow is suddenly turned into hamburger. Pigs also train to electric fence well. As tough as their hide is, it shocks well. Sheep are difficult. Other than when they are recently sheared, they have a natural protection across 95% of their body. Unless it hits them in the head or lower leg, they aren't going to feel it. Even when sheared, they are a very stubborn animal. I've seen them standing facing a fence, swaying forward and backward, almost like they're trying to time the shock pulse. Then they go on through and tear up the wire and posts in the process. I've seen 4 strands of wire spaced about 10 inches apart and they won't stay in. Horses are okay, but you have to tie things to the wire so they can see it. They're too dumb to remember where it is, apparently. There is a big range of fence boxes. Some have a long pulse that isn't too hot. If you hold one of these, they make your hand and arm muscles clench up but they don't hurt too much. The other end of the range have a short hot pulse that will jump a good distance and will burn through green weeds. These hurt. On Sep 19, 2011 9:34 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanianops.lists@**gmail.comops.li...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:20 AM, John van Oppen jvanop...@spectrumnet.us wrote: We had a cow br... Your crews turning up there the next time a cow tries its luck are guaranteed a steak dinner then.
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On 9/19/11 18:49 , Richard Barnes wrote: And if they turn up the voltage on the fence high enough, dinner could be cooked by the time the crew gets there! montana experience says: cows have rather thick skin, sheep come with insulation, and bison will go through anything that gets in their way including 3 x 6 diameter corner posts and 4 strands of barbed and 2 hot wires. horses on the other hand are pansies. livestock always ends up on the other side of the fence... On Sep 19, 2011 9:34 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian ops.li...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:20 AM, John van Oppen jvanop...@spectrumnet.us wrote: We had a cow br... Your crews turning up there the next time a cow tries its luck are guaranteed a steak dinner then.
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:37:55AM -0700, Joel jaeggli wrote: cows have rather thick skin, sheep come with insulation, and bison will go through anything that gets in their way including 3 x 6 diameter corner posts and 4 strands of barbed and 2 hot wires. horses on the other hand are pansies. livestock always ends up on the other side of the fence... Man, whoever invents the Moebius fence will make a FORTUNE. -- David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence Deck of Cards: $1.29. 101 Solitaire Variations book: $6.59. Cheap replacement for the one thing Windows is good at: priceless -- Shane Lazarus
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On 9/20/2011 2:37 AM, Joel jaeggli wrote: On 9/19/11 18:49 , Richard Barnes wrote: And if they turn up the voltage on the fence high enough, dinner could be cooked by the time the crew gets there! montana experience says: cows have rather thick skin, sheep come with insulation, and bison will go through anything that gets in their way including 3 x 6 diameter corner posts and 4 strands of barbed and 2 hot wires. horses on the other hand are pansies. livestock always ends up on the other side of the fence... In Illinois: Cows actually train to electric fence (hot wire) fairly well. They don't like being shocked too much. Once they get used to the fence, you can shut it off and they'll stay in for weeks because they won't even attempt it. That said, sometimes you get a cow that just really wants to be difficult and will go through anything. That cow is suddenly turned into hamburger. Pigs also train to electric fence well. As tough as their hide is, it shocks well. Sheep are difficult. Other than when they are recently sheared, they have a natural protection across 95% of their body. Unless it hits them in the head or lower leg, they aren't going to feel it. Even when sheared, they are a very stubborn animal. I've seen them standing facing a fence, swaying forward and backward, almost like they're trying to time the shock pulse. Then they go on through and tear up the wire and posts in the process. I've seen 4 strands of wire spaced about 10 inches apart and they won't stay in. Horses are okay, but you have to tie things to the wire so they can see it. They're too dumb to remember where it is, apparently. There is a big range of fence boxes. Some have a long pulse that isn't too hot. If you hold one of these, they make your hand and arm muscles clench up but they don't hurt too much. The other end of the range have a short hot pulse that will jump a good distance and will burn through green weeds. These hurt. On Sep 19, 2011 9:34 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanianops.li...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:20 AM, John van Oppen jvanop...@spectrumnet.us wrote: We had a cow br... Your crews turning up there the next time a cow tries its luck are guaranteed a steak dinner then.
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On 09/20/11 00:37, Joel jaeggli wrote: livestock always ends up on the other side of the fence... Must be the greener pastures. -- END OF LINE --MCP
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On the other hand, I've been told that during a power outage cattle can sometimes smell that the electricity is gone... all their noses start sniffing after one in the pasture starts... and make a run for it... Probably is an old wives tale... Yeah, Sheep or Goat proof fence? Good luck. Here they just let them roam and the sheep herders follow them... until they bring them out of the mountains for the winter. On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Jason Baugher ja...@thebaughers.comwrote: On 9/20/2011 2:37 AM, Joel jaeggli wrote: On 9/19/11 18:49 , Richard Barnes wrote: And if they turn up the voltage on the fence high enough, dinner could be cooked by the time the crew gets there! montana experience says: cows have rather thick skin, sheep come with insulation, and bison will go through anything that gets in their way including 3 x 6 diameter corner posts and 4 strands of barbed and 2 hot wires. horses on the other hand are pansies. livestock always ends up on the other side of the fence... In Illinois: Cows actually train to electric fence (hot wire) fairly well. They don't like being shocked too much. Once they get used to the fence, you can shut it off and they'll stay in for weeks because they won't even attempt it. That said, sometimes you get a cow that just really wants to be difficult and will go through anything. That cow is suddenly turned into hamburger. Pigs also train to electric fence well. As tough as their hide is, it shocks well. Sheep are difficult. Other than when they are recently sheared, they have a natural protection across 95% of their body. Unless it hits them in the head or lower leg, they aren't going to feel it. Even when sheared, they are a very stubborn animal. I've seen them standing facing a fence, swaying forward and backward, almost like they're trying to time the shock pulse. Then they go on through and tear up the wire and posts in the process. I've seen 4 strands of wire spaced about 10 inches apart and they won't stay in. Horses are okay, but you have to tie things to the wire so they can see it. They're too dumb to remember where it is, apparently. There is a big range of fence boxes. Some have a long pulse that isn't too hot. If you hold one of these, they make your hand and arm muscles clench up but they don't hurt too much. The other end of the range have a short hot pulse that will jump a good distance and will burn through green weeds. These hurt. On Sep 19, 2011 9:34 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanianops.lists@**gmail.comops.li...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:20 AM, John van Oppen jvanop...@spectrumnet.us wrote: We had a cow br... Your crews turning up there the next time a cow tries its luck are guaranteed a steak dinner then.
Re: Internet mauled by bears
One more problem: Many of these rural mountain small WISP towers (such as Idaho from this article), do not have electricity. Winter access is via snow machine, snow-shoe, or helicopter, -- and power is obtained via solar panels and batteries. They are often placed on forest service or BLM land, or other private property leases without facilities. On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 11:25 PM, PC paul4...@gmail.com wrote: On the other hand, I've been told that during a power outage cattle can sometimes smell that the electricity is gone... all their noses start sniffing after one in the pasture starts... and make a run for it... Probably is an old wives tale... Yeah, Sheep or Goat proof fence? Good luck. Here they just let them roam and the sheep herders follow them... until they bring them out of the mountains for the winter. On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Jason Baugher ja...@thebaughers.comwrote: On 9/20/2011 2:37 AM, Joel jaeggli wrote: On 9/19/11 18:49 , Richard Barnes wrote: And if they turn up the voltage on the fence high enough, dinner could be cooked by the time the crew gets there! montana experience says: cows have rather thick skin, sheep come with insulation, and bison will go through anything that gets in their way including 3 x 6 diameter corner posts and 4 strands of barbed and 2 hot wires. horses on the other hand are pansies. livestock always ends up on the other side of the fence... In Illinois: Cows actually train to electric fence (hot wire) fairly well. They don't like being shocked too much. Once they get used to the fence, you can shut it off and they'll stay in for weeks because they won't even attempt it. That said, sometimes you get a cow that just really wants to be difficult and will go through anything. That cow is suddenly turned into hamburger. Pigs also train to electric fence well. As tough as their hide is, it shocks well. Sheep are difficult. Other than when they are recently sheared, they have a natural protection across 95% of their body. Unless it hits them in the head or lower leg, they aren't going to feel it. Even when sheared, they are a very stubborn animal. I've seen them standing facing a fence, swaying forward and backward, almost like they're trying to time the shock pulse. Then they go on through and tear up the wire and posts in the process. I've seen 4 strands of wire spaced about 10 inches apart and they won't stay in. Horses are okay, but you have to tie things to the wire so they can see it. They're too dumb to remember where it is, apparently. There is a big range of fence boxes. Some have a long pulse that isn't too hot. If you hold one of these, they make your hand and arm muscles clench up but they don't hurt too much. The other end of the range have a short hot pulse that will jump a good distance and will burn through green weeds. These hurt. On Sep 19, 2011 9:34 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanianops.lists@**gmail.comops.li...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:20 AM, John van Oppen jvanop...@spectrumnet.us wrote: We had a cow br... Your crews turning up there the next time a cow tries its luck are guaranteed a steak dinner then.
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: He pointed out that these are the kind of problems city folk probably don't have in an urban area because there is a bear shortage. And backwoods towns have rednecks with shotguns, and bubba the backhoe driver exists everywhere there's a road .. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian (ops.li...@gmail.com)
RE: Internet mauled by bears
-Original Message- From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:ops.li...@gmail.com] On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: He pointed out that these are the kind of problems city folk probably don't have in an urban area because there is a bear shortage. And backwoods towns have rednecks with shotguns, and bubba the backhoe driver exists everywhere there's a road .. To be honest, while we have had some 'shotgun peppered' fiber runs in our rural TN town (mostly in one spot, due to dove hunters), after comparing notes with a lady that works for Mediacom I think it is preferable to having to have security escorts for their crews in some rough urban areas because gangs will shoot up plant then wait for the crews to show up so they can rob them. Everyone has issues as which are as diverse as the areas we deploy in. __ Eric Esslinger Information Services Manager - Fayetteville Public Utilities http://www.fpu-tn.com/ (931)433-1522 ext 165 This message may contain confidential and/or proprietary information and is intended for the person/entity to whom it was originally addressed. Any use by others is strictly prohibited. attachment: Eric J Esslinger.vcf
Re: Internet mauled by bears
Worth a read: http://blog.level3.com/2011/08/04/the-10-most-bizarre-and-annoying-causes-of-fiber-cuts/ On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Jason LeBlanc j...@packetpimp.org wrote: We have had fiber shot with what apparently was apparently a handgun in down town Miami. Interesting that is fairly common. On 09/19/2011 12:45 PM, Eric J Esslinger wrote: -Original Message- From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:ops.li...@gmail.com] On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Eugen Leitleu...@leitl.org wrote: He pointed out that these are the kind of problems city folk probably don't have in an urban area because there is a bear shortage. And backwoods towns have rednecks with shotguns, and bubba the backhoe driver exists everywhere there's a road .. To be honest, while we have had some 'shotgun peppered' fiber runs in our rural TN town (mostly in one spot, due to dove hunters), after comparing notes with a lady that works for Mediacom I think it is preferable to having to have security escorts for their crews in some rough urban areas because gangs will shoot up plant then wait for the crews to show up so they can rob them. Everyone has issues as which are as diverse as the areas we deploy in. __ Eric Esslinger Information Services Manager - Fayetteville Public Utilities http://www.fpu-tn.com/ (931)433-1522 ext 165 This message may contain confidential and/or proprietary information and is intended for the person/entity to whom it was originally addressed. Any use by others is strictly prohibited.
RE: Internet mauled by bears
We had a cow break down a door to a remote microwave site once...now we are the proud owners of a generator backed electric fence at that site...Rural physical plant issues are almost always entertaining. :) John -Original Message- From: Eric J Esslinger [mailto:eesslin...@fpu-tn.com] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 9:45 AM To: 'nanog@nanog.org' Subject: RE: Internet mauled by bears -Original Message- From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:ops.li...@gmail.com] On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: He pointed out that these are the kind of problems city folk probably don't have in an urban area because there is a bear shortage. And backwoods towns have rednecks with shotguns, and bubba the backhoe driver exists everywhere there's a road .. To be honest, while we have had some 'shotgun peppered' fiber runs in our rural TN town (mostly in one spot, due to dove hunters), after comparing notes with a lady that works for Mediacom I think it is preferable to having to have security escorts for their crews in some rough urban areas because gangs will shoot up plant then wait for the crews to show up so they can rob them. Everyone has issues as which are as diverse as the areas we deploy in. __ Eric Esslinger Information Services Manager - Fayetteville Public Utilities http://www.fpu-tn.com/ (931)433-1522 ext 165 This message may contain confidential and/or proprietary information and is intended for the person/entity to whom it was originally addressed. Any use by others is strictly prohibited.
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:20 AM, John van Oppen jvanop...@spectrumnet.us wrote: We had a cow break down a door to a remote microwave site once... now we are the proud owners of a generator backed electric fence at that site... Rural physical plant issues are almost always entertaining. :) Your crews turning up there the next time a cow tries its luck are guaranteed a steak dinner then. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian (ops.li...@gmail.com)
Re: Internet mauled by bears
And if they turn up the voltage on the fence high enough, dinner could be cooked by the time the crew gets there! On Sep 19, 2011 9:34 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian ops.li...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:20 AM, John van Oppen jvanop...@spectrumnet.us wrote: We had a cow br... Your crews turning up there the next time a cow tries its luck are guaranteed a steak dinner then. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian (ops.li...@gmail.com)
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 01:49, Richard Barnes richard.bar...@gmail.com wrote: And if they turn up the voltage on the fence high enough, dinner could be cooked by the time the crew gets there! Not quite. The point of the electric fence is to discourage moooving through it, but you do not want to kill (or seriously injure) your livestock. That, however does not always work as expected. Cows are really dumb creatures. And while an electric fence may discourage them, I have seen the extra special ones just lounge against the electric fence for a long time (I presume until the brain notices that something does not feel right, so perhaps they should consider, but only consider, being somewhere else). On a good day the cow goes (or does not go) where you want it. On a bad day you repair the electric fence. Gary
Re: Internet mauled by bears
On Sep 19, 2011, at 8:49 PM, Richard Barnes wrote: And if they turn up the voltage on the fence high enough, dinner could be cooked by the time the crew gets there! Nah, they are high frequency and high voltage, but very low current. It's uncomfortable and may cause local burning similar to a TENS unit turned up too high. Here's another critter ate the Internet blog post: http://blog.lafayetteprofiber.com/2008/06/nutria-ratsand-fiber.html --Chris (who once fell off the top of a dual level loading chute when he didn't see the hot wire that someone strung 3 feet above the chute.)
