RE: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
For GPON and Ethernet it's just SNMP counters. Frank -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 PM To: Livingood, Jason Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port So it looks like DOCSIS cable has a great solution with IPDR, but what about DSL, GPON, and regular Ethernet networks? It was mentioned that DSL uses radius, but most new DSL systems no longer use PPPoE, so I don't believe radius is a viable option. What about Wifi Access Points? What would be the best way to track usage across these devices? On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Livingood, Jason jason_living...@cable.comcast.com wrote: There are lots of ways to do it. Cable uses IPDR, which is baked into DOCSIS standards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Protocol_Detail_Record On 10/15/14, 1:38 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: So based on the response I have received so far it seems cable was a complicated example with service flows involved. What if we are talking about something simpler like keeping track of how much data flows in and out of a port on a switch in a given month? I know you can use SNMP, but I believe that polls in intervals and takes samples which isn't really accurate right? On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:40 PM, na...@jack.fr.eu.org wrote: Folks, use sflow with rrdtool! Quite awesome handy On 15/10/2014 20:14, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:06:56 -0500, Colton Conor said: on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Assume a 20mbit connection. How many times can this roll over a 32 bit counter in a month if it's going full blast?
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
So it looks like DOCSIS cable has a great solution with IPDR, but what about DSL, GPON, and regular Ethernet networks? It was mentioned that DSL uses radius, but most new DSL systems no longer use PPPoE, so I don't believe radius is a viable option. What about Wifi Access Points? What would be the best way to track usage across these devices? On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Livingood, Jason jason_living...@cable.comcast.com wrote: There are lots of ways to do it. Cable uses IPDR, which is baked into DOCSIS standards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Protocol_Detail_Record On 10/15/14, 1:38 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: So based on the response I have received so far it seems cable was a complicated example with service flows involved. What if we are talking about something simpler like keeping track of how much data flows in and out of a port on a switch in a given month? I know you can use SNMP, but I believe that polls in intervals and takes samples which isn't really accurate right? On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:40 PM, na...@jack.fr.eu.org wrote: Folks, use sflow with rrdtool! Quite awesome handy On 15/10/2014 20:14, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:06:56 -0500, Colton Conor said: on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Assume a 20mbit connection. How many times can this roll over a 32 bit counter in a month if it's going full blast?
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
There's no correlation between PPPoE and RADIUS. Many (if not all) BRAS/BNG platforms will support RADIUS based accounting for IPoE sessions. The majority of accounting is done that way; with outliers using some other mechanism (Diameter; proprietary vendor billing solutions; flow based platforms; or counters elsewhere on the network). WiFi in my experience also typically uses a RADIUS based approach, although it can depend on the deployment context. AJ Original Message From: Colton Conor Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:35 PM To: Livingood, Jason Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port So it looks like DOCSIS cable has a great solution with IPDR, but what about DSL, GPON, and regular Ethernet networks? It was mentioned that DSL uses radius, but most new DSL systems no longer use PPPoE, so I don't believe radius is a viable option. What about Wifi Access Points? What would be the best way to track usage across these devices? On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Livingood, Jason jason_living...@cable.comcast.com wrote: There are lots of ways to do it. Cable uses IPDR, which is baked into DOCSIS standards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Protocol_Detail_Record On 10/15/14, 1:38 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: So based on the response I have received so far it seems cable was a complicated example with service flows involved. What if we are talking about something simpler like keeping track of how much data flows in and out of a port on a switch in a given month? I know you can use SNMP, but I believe that polls in intervals and takes samples which isn't really accurate right? On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:40 PM, na...@jack.fr.eu.org wrote: Folks, use sflow with rrdtool! Quite awesome handy On 15/10/2014 20:14, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:06:56 -0500, Colton Conor said: on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Assume a 20mbit connection. How many times can this roll over a 32 bit counter in a month if it's going full blast?
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014, Colton Conor wrote: So based on the response I have received so far it seems cable was a complicated example with service flows involved. What if we are talking about something simpler like keeping track of how much data flows in and out of a port on a switch in a given month? I know you can use SNMP, but I believe that polls in intervals and takes samples which isn't really accurate right? If you're measuring per month, there is no reason you can't use SNMP, poll that 64bit counter once per day or something, and then add the values up each month. It'll be accurate enough. SNMP isn't sampled, if you poll the IfOctet counter, it just counts upwards and if you're not worried about the switch rebooting, you could poll it once per month and be accurate. I'd say polling it once or a few times a day protects enough against that. -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se
Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
I see in past news articles that cable companies are inaccurately calculating customers data usage for their online GB of usage per month. My question is how do you properly determine how much traffic in bytes a port passes per month? Is it different if we are talking about an ethernet port on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Why are the cable companies having such a hard time? Is it hard to calculate data usage per port? Is it done with SNMP or some other method? What is the best way to monitor a 48 port switch for example, and know how much traffic they used? https://gigaom.com/2013/02/07/more-bad-news-about-broadband-caps-many-meters-are-inaccurate/
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:06:56 -0500, Colton Conor said: on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Assume a 20mbit connection. How many times can this roll over a 32 bit counter in a month if it's going full blast? pgp9gTbRaH7Y0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
On Oct 15, 2014, at 2:14 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:06:56 -0500, Colton Conor said: on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Assume a 20mbit connection. How many times can this roll over a 32 bit counter in a month if it's going full blast? If your switch doesn’t support 64-bit counters return it. - Jared
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
Folks, use sflow with rrdtool! Quite awesome handy On 15/10/2014 20:14, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:06:56 -0500, Colton Conor said: on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Assume a 20mbit connection. How many times can this roll over a 32 bit counter in a month if it's going full blast?
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
So based on the response I have received so far it seems cable was a complicated example with service flows involved. What if we are talking about something simpler like keeping track of how much data flows in and out of a port on a switch in a given month? I know you can use SNMP, but I believe that polls in intervals and takes samples which isn't really accurate right? On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:40 PM, na...@jack.fr.eu.org wrote: Folks, use sflow with rrdtool! Quite awesome handy On 15/10/2014 20:14, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:06:56 -0500, Colton Conor said: on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Assume a 20mbit connection. How many times can this roll over a 32 bit counter in a month if it's going full blast?
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: So based on the response I have received so far it seems cable was a complicated example with service flows involved. What if we are talking about something simpler like keeping track of how much data flows in and out of a port on a switch in a given month? I know you can use SNMP, but I believe that polls in intervals and takes samples which isn't really accurate right? It depends on what you're talking about. Network devices implementing the SNMP IF-MIB have counters for each interface that when polled, show the number of bytes being transmitted and received. Conventionally, network operators poll these counter values, compute the difference from the last time it was polled, and extrapolate a rate (bit volume over a time unit) from that. Often, this is done over a 5 minute interval. This introduces some averaging error. However, if an operator is just computing cumulative transfer, it's pretty easy. Just continue to sum up the counter value deltas from poll to poll. It could be easy to mess this up if the counter size is too small, or rolls more than once in-between polls. If a large telecom can't get billing correct, they shouldn't be allowed to do business. Easier solution: stop metering customers, and sink more money into expanded infrastructure.
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
You may want to start learning more at http://www.netforecast.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/NFR5116_Comcast_Meter_Accuracy_Report.pdf. This report is written by Netforecast – the same firm interviewed by GigaOm in the story link you provided. Their first audit was in 2009: http://www.netforecast.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/NFR5101_Comcast_Usage_Meter_Accuracy_Original.pdf Their 2nd audit was in 2010: http://www.netforecast.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/NFR5101_Comcast_Usage_Meter_Accuracy.pdf And here is a report on best practices for data usage in cable networks: http://www.netforecast.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/NFR5110_ISP_Data_Usage_Meter_Specification_Best_Practices_for_MSOs1.pdf - Jason Livingood Comcast On 10/15/14, 12:06 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.commailto:colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: I see in past news articles that cable companies are inaccurately calculating customers data usage for their online GB of usage per month. My question is how do you properly determine how much traffic in bytes a port passes per month? Is it different if we are talking about an ethernet port on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Why are the cable companies having such a hard time? Is it hard to calculate data usage per port? Is it done with SNMP or some other method? What is the best way to monitor a 48 port switch for example, and know how much traffic they used? https://gigaom.com/2013/02/07/more-bad-news-about-broadband-caps-many-meters-are-inaccurate/
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
There are lots of ways to do it. Cable uses IPDR, which is baked into DOCSIS standards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Protocol_Detail_Record On 10/15/14, 1:38 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: So based on the response I have received so far it seems cable was a complicated example with service flows involved. What if we are talking about something simpler like keeping track of how much data flows in and out of a port on a switch in a given month? I know you can use SNMP, but I believe that polls in intervals and takes samples which isn't really accurate right? On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:40 PM, na...@jack.fr.eu.org wrote: Folks, use sflow with rrdtool! Quite awesome handy On 15/10/2014 20:14, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:06:56 -0500, Colton Conor said: on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Assume a 20mbit connection. How many times can this roll over a 32 bit counter in a month if it's going full blast?
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
On 10/15/14, 1:38 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: So based on the response I have received so far it seems cable was a complicated example with service flows involved. Don't forget that between your port on your DSL/Cable modem and the actual port they may be monitoring there could be transitions through various protocols that can chew up bandwidth with framing bits and whatnot. See: http://www.yourdictionary.com/cell-tax as an example. This can, in worse but common cases, be as much as one fifth of the bandwidth. -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
IPDR under DOCSIS and generally RADIUS or TACACS(+) for DSL. Unclear personally about fiber/FiOS deployments (never been near enough to know) Flow (sflow, nflow, ipfix, etc) generally doesn't scale and is woefully inaccurate. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: I see in past news articles that cable companies are inaccurately calculating customers data usage for their online GB of usage per month. My question is how do you properly determine how much traffic in bytes a port passes per month? Is it different if we are talking about an ethernet port on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Why are the cable companies having such a hard time? Is it hard to calculate data usage per port? Is it done with SNMP or some other method? What is the best way to monitor a 48 port switch for example, and know how much traffic they used? https://gigaom.com/2013/02/07/more-bad-news-about-broadband-caps-many-meters-are-inaccurate/ -- Genius might be described as a supreme capacity for getting its possessors into trouble of all kinds. -- Samuel Butler
Re: Keeping Track of Data Usage in GB Per Port
This all becomes even more complicated when some traffic isn't counted (Eg. free facebook) on a given service which generally then necessitates the need for some level of flow-based accounting, even if it's just collecting flows for the free traffic to subtract from the port counters. I can see how it could get messy. On 16.10.2014 12:20, Michael Loftis wrote: IPDR under DOCSIS and generally RADIUS or TACACS(+) for DSL. Unclear personally about fiber/FiOS deployments (never been near enough to know) Flow (sflow, nflow, ipfix, etc) generally doesn't scale and is woefully inaccurate. On Wednesday, October 15, 2014, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: I see in past news articles that cable companies are inaccurately calculating customers data usage for their online GB of usage per month. My question is how do you properly determine how much traffic in bytes a port passes per month? Is it different if we are talking about an ethernet port on a cisco switch vs a DSL port on a DSLAM for example? I would think these access switches would have some sort of stat you can count similar to a utility meter reader on a house. See what it was at last month, see what is is at this month, subtract last months from this months, and the difference is the total amount used for that month. Why are the cable companies having such a hard time? Is it hard to calculate data usage per port? Is it done with SNMP or some other method? What is the best way to monitor a 48 port switch for example, and know how much traffic they used? https://gigaom.com/2013/02/07/more-bad-news-about-broadband-caps-many-meters-are-inaccurate/
