Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[valdis . kletnieks]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 16:30:21 +, David Guo via NANOG said:
> They are based in Netherlands and may be not familiar with Germany business 
> laws

I'd expect that due diligence on their part would be to find an actual expert
on German business law.  And given that RIPE deals with most of Europe, I'd be
surprised if *nobody* in their legal department understands what are pretty
basic concepts of German law.

Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[David Guo via NANOG]

They are based in Netherlands and may be not familiar with Germany business laws

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>


From: NANOG  on behalf of Mel Beckman 

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 00:11
To: Carsten Bormann
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

When AI robots take over a regional registry, let us know. In the current 
world, there is no such thing as AI robots running any bureaucracy. They’re all 
run by fallible humans, and only humans are to blame. In this case, European 
humans. :)

-mel

> On Feb 15, 2019, at 8:06 AM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
>
>> On Feb 15, 2019, at 16:46, Mel Beckman  wrote:
>>
>> rant not operational, it’s not even North American
>
> While that is true, an event where a regional registry has been taken over by 
> (badly programmed) AI robots should be very much of interest both 
> operationally and for North Americans.
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>

Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[Mel Beckman]

When AI robots take over a regional registry, let us know. In the current 
world, there is no such thing as AI robots running any bureaucracy. They’re all 
run by fallible humans, and only humans are to blame. In this case, European 
humans. :)

 -mel

> On Feb 15, 2019, at 8:06 AM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 15, 2019, at 16:46, Mel Beckman  wrote:
>> 
>> rant not operational, it’s not even North American
> 
> While that is true, an event where a regional registry has been taken over by 
> (badly programmed) AI robots should be very much of interest both 
> operationally and for North Americans.
> 
> Grüße, Carsten
> 

Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[Carsten Bormann]

On Feb 15, 2019, at 16:46, Mel Beckman  wrote:
> 
> rant not operational, it’s not even North American

While that is true, an event where a regional registry has been taken over by 
(badly programmed) AI robots should be very much of interest both operationally 
and for North Americans.

Grüße, Carsten

Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[Job Snijders]

Dear Markus,

I think you are better off taking a deep breath, perhaps removing some
strongly worded sentences, and bring up the topic on one of the RIPE
mailing lists:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/ripe-mailing-lists/ripe-list

Kind regards,

Job

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 9:47 Mel Beckman  wrote:

> Sorry, but not only is your giant bolus of a rant not operational, it’s
> not even North American. Please respect the boundaries of our group and
> keep your venting in Europe where it belongs. This isn’t a flame, it’s just
> a polite request that you knock it off.
>
>  -mel beckman
>
> > On Feb 15, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Markus  wrote:
> >
> > Hi list!
> >
> > The following is off-topic/venting. It's about RIPE and my company in
> Germany. If you don't care about this even remotely, don't read on and
> don't flame me. I'm just so pissed and I have no other connection to the
> ISP (and related) community than the NANOG mailing list and I know there
> are some other European ISPs on this list. Here goes:
> >
> >
> > My company has been a RIPE LIR for 17 years now. This week was the first
> time ever that I became, was and still am really, really pissed at RIPE.
> >
> > There's some madness going on in RIPEs legal department. It appears they
> recently hired some retard who now wants to prove he/she is a smartass.
> Harsh words, but I have no other explanation for what's going on right  now!
> >
> > Here's the story:
> >
> > Sunday, 10th February, 17:08 CET: I sent away the online application for
> an additional LIR account. Automatic E-Mail confirmation received.
> >
> > Monday, 11th February, 15:07 CET: I didn't receive a human reply yet,
> and since the business day was nearing its end, I mailed them about the
> status, and asked whether I could come by their Amsterdam office the next
> day to sign the required documents - in order to speed up the whole process.
> >
> > Monday, 11th February, 15:57 CET: Reply from RIPE. Let me just copy and
> paste: "I regret to inform you that we do not offer the possibility to sign
> your contracts in our office and regrettably there is no option to speed up
> the application procedure." - Ok, no biggie. But then:
> >
> >
> > Quote start.
> >
> > "We can see that this is an additional LIR account for Lightup Network
> Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> >
> > We are currently reviewing applications with a legal entity type 'GmbH &
> Co. KG' together with our legal department and they have stated the
> following: "GmbH & Co. KG" is a sub-form of a "KG" (partnership).
> >
> > It normally consists of a general partner and one or more limited
> partners, which can be legal or natural persons.
> >
> > According to "Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration
> Data" the signing party of an agreement can either be a legal or a natural
> person. A "KG" is not considered a legal person and cant be the signing
> party in our agreements.
> >
> > The agreement can be signed though by one of the legal or natural
> persons that are partners (general or limited). We therefore cannot
> register Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> >
> > As you already have an LIR account with us, we will have to update your
> existing account, de.lightupnet, before we can register this second account
> for Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> >
> > I created a new ticket for your company update and my colleagues will
> contact you shortly for the update."
> >
> > Quote end.
> >
> >
> > That didn't sound so good. I've had a company with the legal form GmbH &
> Co. KG (it's a German company) for about 15 years now and my initial gut
> feeling was "That's just plain bullsh*t!".
> >
> >
> > Tuesday, 12th February, 12:30: I receive another E-Mail. New ticket, as
> they promised.
> >
> >
> > Quote start.
> >
> > "It has come to our attention, that the legal name of your LIR account
> has been registered incorrectly.
> >
> > It was advised by our Legal Department that the legal form of your
> company as "GmbH & Co. KG" is a form of a general partnership that does not
> have a legal personality.
> >
> > If there is a document proving opposite, please send it to us. According
> to our procedure, we can only sign an agreement with a legal person that
> has a legal personality or a natural person.
> >
> > Therefore, we will have to correct your legal name to  trading as "Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG">, instead of  Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG>."
> >
> > Quote end.
> >
> >
> > They also asked that I upload a photo/scan of my passport, which I did.
> I just thought: Ok, let them have their way. If they want to change my LIRs
> description, who really cares. All I want is to create a 2nd LIR and speed
> this whole thing up. But, since they want to be SO LEGALLY CORRECT, I
> replied and mentioned the following. Let me copy and paste.
> >
> >
> > Quote start.
> >
> > "I just uploaded my passport.
> >
> > However, following your logic, you need to change all of the following
> German 

Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[Mel Beckman]

Sorry, but not only is your giant bolus of a rant not operational, it’s not 
even North American. Please respect the boundaries of our group and keep your 
venting in Europe where it belongs. This isn’t a flame, it’s just a polite 
request that you knock it off. 

 -mel beckman

> On Feb 15, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Markus  wrote:
> 
> Hi list!
> 
> The following is off-topic/venting. It's about RIPE and my company in 
> Germany. If you don't care about this even remotely, don't read on and don't 
> flame me. I'm just so pissed and I have no other connection to the ISP (and 
> related) community than the NANOG mailing list and I know there are some 
> other European ISPs on this list. Here goes:
> 
> 
> My company has been a RIPE LIR for 17 years now. This week was the first time 
> ever that I became, was and still am really, really pissed at RIPE.
> 
> There's some madness going on in RIPEs legal department. It appears they 
> recently hired some retard who now wants to prove he/she is a smartass. Harsh 
> words, but I have no other explanation for what's going on right  now!
> 
> Here's the story:
> 
> Sunday, 10th February, 17:08 CET: I sent away the online application for an 
> additional LIR account. Automatic E-Mail confirmation received.
> 
> Monday, 11th February, 15:07 CET: I didn't receive a human reply yet, and 
> since the business day was nearing its end, I mailed them about the status, 
> and asked whether I could come by their Amsterdam office the next day to sign 
> the required documents - in order to speed up the whole process.
> 
> Monday, 11th February, 15:57 CET: Reply from RIPE. Let me just copy and 
> paste: "I regret to inform you that we do not offer the possibility to sign 
> your contracts in our office and regrettably there is no option to speed up 
> the application procedure." - Ok, no biggie. But then:
> 
> 
> Quote start.
> 
> "We can see that this is an additional LIR account for Lightup Network 
> Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> 
> We are currently reviewing applications with a legal entity type 'GmbH & Co. 
> KG' together with our legal department and they have stated the following: 
> "GmbH & Co. KG" is a sub-form of a "KG" (partnership).
> 
> It normally consists of a general partner and one or more limited partners, 
> which can be legal or natural persons.
> 
> According to "Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration 
> Data" the signing party of an agreement can either be a legal or a natural 
> person. A "KG" is not considered a legal person and cant be the signing party 
> in our agreements.
> 
> The agreement can be signed though by one of the legal or natural persons 
> that are partners (general or limited). We therefore cannot register Lightup 
> Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> 
> As you already have an LIR account with us, we will have to update your 
> existing account, de.lightupnet, before we can register this second account 
> for Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> 
> I created a new ticket for your company update and my colleagues will contact 
> you shortly for the update."
> 
> Quote end.
> 
> 
> That didn't sound so good. I've had a company with the legal form GmbH & Co. 
> KG (it's a German company) for about 15 years now and my initial gut feeling 
> was "That's just plain bullsh*t!".
> 
> 
> Tuesday, 12th February, 12:30: I receive another E-Mail. New ticket, as they 
> promised.
> 
> 
> Quote start.
> 
> "It has come to our attention, that the legal name of your LIR account has 
> been registered incorrectly.
> 
> It was advised by our Legal Department that the legal form of your company as 
> "GmbH & Co. KG" is a form of a general partnership that does not have a legal 
> personality.
> 
> If there is a document proving opposite, please send it to us. According to 
> our procedure, we can only sign an agreement with a legal person that has a 
> legal personality or a natural person.
> 
> Therefore, we will have to correct your legal name to  as "Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG">, instead of  Solutions GmbH & Co. KG>."
> 
> Quote end.
> 
> 
> They also asked that I upload a photo/scan of my passport, which I did. I 
> just thought: Ok, let them have their way. If they want to change my LIRs 
> description, who really cares. All I want is to create a 2nd LIR and speed 
> this whole thing up. But, since they want to be SO LEGALLY CORRECT, I replied 
> and mentioned the following. Let me copy and paste.
> 
> 
> Quote start.
> 
> "I just uploaded my passport.
> 
> However, following your logic, you need to change all of the following German 
> legal forms in your database to "Individual-name trading as ...":
> 
> - OHG
> - KG
> - GmbH & Co. OHG
> - GmbH & Co. KG
> 
> I understand that you would have to do that with a GbR, as a GbR cannot get 
> registered in the commercial register of companies and you need to specify 
> the names of the individuals. But I think with the above 4 legal forms you 
> are making as mistake here.
> 

OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[Markus]

Hi list!

The following is off-topic/venting. It's about RIPE and my company in 
Germany. If you don't care about this even remotely, don't read on and 
don't flame me. I'm just so pissed and I have no other connection to the 
ISP (and related) community than the NANOG mailing list and I know there 
are some other European ISPs on this list. Here goes:



My company has been a RIPE LIR for 17 years now. This week was the first 
time ever that I became, was and still am really, really pissed at RIPE.


There's some madness going on in RIPEs legal department. It appears they 
recently hired some retard who now wants to prove he/she is a smartass. 
Harsh words, but I have no other explanation for what's going on right  now!


Here's the story:

Sunday, 10th February, 17:08 CET: I sent away the online application for 
an additional LIR account. Automatic E-Mail confirmation received.


Monday, 11th February, 15:07 CET: I didn't receive a human reply yet, 
and since the business day was nearing its end, I mailed them about the 
status, and asked whether I could come by their Amsterdam office the 
next day to sign the required documents - in order to speed up the whole 
process.


Monday, 11th February, 15:57 CET: Reply from RIPE. Let me just copy and 
paste: "I regret to inform you that we do not offer the possibility to 
sign your contracts in our office and regrettably there is no option to 
speed up the application procedure." - Ok, no biggie. But then:



Quote start.

"We can see that this is an additional LIR account for Lightup Network 
Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.


We are currently reviewing applications with a legal entity type 'GmbH & 
Co. KG' together with our legal department and they have stated the 
following: "GmbH & Co. KG" is a sub-form of a "KG" (partnership).


It normally consists of a general partner and one or more limited 
partners, which can be legal or natural persons.


According to "Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration 
Data" the signing party of an agreement can either be a legal or a 
natural person. A "KG" is not considered a legal person and cant be the 
signing party in our agreements.


The agreement can be signed though by one of the legal or natural 
persons that are partners (general or limited). We therefore cannot 
register Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.


As you already have an LIR account with us, we will have to update your 
existing account, de.lightupnet, before we can register this second 
account for Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.


I created a new ticket for your company update and my colleagues will 
contact you shortly for the update."


Quote end.


That didn't sound so good. I've had a company with the legal form GmbH & 
Co. KG (it's a German company) for about 15 years now and my initial gut 
feeling was "That's just plain bullsh*t!".



Tuesday, 12th February, 12:30: I receive another E-Mail. New ticket, as 
they promised.



Quote start.

"It has come to our attention, that the legal name of your LIR account 
has been registered incorrectly.


It was advised by our Legal Department that the legal form of your 
company as "GmbH & Co. KG" is a form of a general partnership that does 
not have a legal personality.


If there is a document proving opposite, please send it to us. According 
to our procedure, we can only sign an agreement with a legal person that 
has a legal personality or a natural person.


Therefore, we will have to correct your legal name to trading as "Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG">, instead of 
."


Quote end.


They also asked that I upload a photo/scan of my passport, which I did. 
I just thought: Ok, let them have their way. If they want to change my 
LIRs description, who really cares. All I want is to create a 2nd LIR 
and speed this whole thing up. But, since they want to be SO LEGALLY 
CORRECT, I replied and mentioned the following. Let me copy and paste.



Quote start.

"I just uploaded my passport.

However, following your logic, you need to change all of the following 
German legal forms in your database to "Individual-name trading as ...":


- OHG
- KG
- GmbH & Co. OHG
- GmbH & Co. KG

I understand that you would have to do that with a GbR, as a GbR cannot 
get registered in the commercial register of companies and you need to 
specify the names of the individuals. But I think with the above 4 legal 
forms you are making as mistake here.


Although it is correct that a GmbH & Co. KG does not have a legal 
personality that differs from its general partners (Persoenlich haftende 
Gesellschafterin) or limited partners (Kommanditist), a GmbH & Co. KG is 
still a legal entity as its able to sue in front of court, or get sued 
in front of court. A GmbH & Co. KG can also purchase rights and enter 
into liabilities, can purchase property and other in rem rights related 
to estates. (Source: 
)


That being said,