Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Mark Tinka]

On 25/Aug/16 11:10, Randy Bush wrote:

>
> how does this work for mpls vpn based services across continent/country?
> i.e. are there inter-provider mpls vpn issues?

Interestingly, being a relatively young player in the MPLS space, we see
Africa slowly moving away from typical l3vpn services as more
countries/cities/metros get fibre, as a result of businesses moving
their IT infrastructure into some kind of cloud. It's not happening
quickly, but it is happening, and I think what the SD-WAN (yet another
buzz word) boys are doing will only accelerate the process.

That has meant that the only progressive inter-provider MPLS NNI's we
are seeing in/for the region are l2vpn's, and despite all the promises
of BGP-driven l2vpn NNI's, I'd say all the l2vpn NNI's we are setting up
are simple back-to-back VLAN's. Can't possibly mess those up :-).

Mark.

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Randy Bush]

> At Level 3, a VPOP is a POP that we operate under someone else's
> license.  For example, we have VPOPs in a number of markets throughout
> the Asia Pacific region, including countries like China, Vietnam,
> Indonesia, and others.  We are buying a service from a partner that
> has an operating license in that country where they provide routers,
> entrance facilities, colo and other related infrastructure items, but
> we otherwise operate it as a full POP.  It's in our OSS/BSS systems
> like any other location.

how does this work for mpls vpn based services across continent/country?
i.e. are there inter-provider mpls vpn issues?

randy

RE: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Siegel, David]

Different providers use the term with different definitions, but this is how we 
use it:

At Level 3, a VPOP is a POP that we operate under someone else's license.  For 
example, we have VPOPs in a number of markets throughout the Asia Pacific 
region, including countries like China, Vietnam, Indonesia, and others.  We are 
buying a service from a partner that has an operating license in that country 
where they provide routers, entrance facilities, colo and other related 
infrastructure items, but we otherwise operate it as a full POP.  It's in our 
OSS/BSS systems like any other location.

As far as our customers can tell, there is nothing virtual about it.  It looks 
like any other node on our network, so the distinction is purely internal to 
our company and how we have to manage support for the site.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Mark Tinka
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:58 AM
To: Yucong Sun <sunyuc...@gmail.com>; Rod Beck 
<rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com>; William Herrin <b...@herrin.us>
Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?



On 24/Aug/16 01:20, Yucong Sun wrote:

> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I understand on layer 2 or like william point out (on anything other 
> than
> IP) it make total sense.
>
> However on layer 3, with existing transit bandwith with said provider 
> it would be redudant. (Assume The one you wanted peer at site b is 
> already peering with your provider).

The term "virtual PoP" is more commercial than it is technical.

As William mentioned, you are providing services via someone else's 
infrastructure. It is between you and that other network to determine how much 
of their infrastructure you will depend on.

But ultimately, the objective is for you to reduce your exposure in what you 
would consider a new venture that still needs some proofing.

Mark.

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Dave Cohen]

The key is really that it could mean different things for different providers, 
although I would agree that the gist is that the location is enabled to look 
and feel like a POP without the provider installing the full complement of 
requisite hardware. A provider I worked at in the past, for example, defined a 
virtual POP as a non-POP location at which POP pricing was offered - the actual 
method of delivery there being both irrelevant to it being defined that way and 
unimportant to the concept as a whole. It let the company be price-competitive 
with others that may have made more extensive investments in hardware at 
higher-demand locations, and it was purely based on a business justification. 
There was no specific technical definition (although in reality we were 
transparent with our customers about methodology anyway) - this contrasts with 
other providers that are clearly using it in a way that does define a technical 
approach. It's just an approach specific to that provider.

> On Aug 23, 2016, at 6:51 PM, Rod Beck <rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, except it is done via Switched Ethernet and VLANs. The idea behind 
> virtual peering. Your gear is in Amsterdam and someone gives you VLANs to 
> LINX.
> 
> 
> - R.
> 
> 
> 
> From: NANOG <nanog-boun...@nanog.org> on behalf of William Herrin 
> <b...@herrin.us>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:46 AM
> To: Yucong Sun
> Cc: NANOG
> Subject: Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Yucong Sun <sunyuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I came across the idea of the virtual POP  , but the website for them have
>> way too much jargon to me[1][2][3], can someone explain it like i'm five
>> (:-D)?
> 
> A virtual Point Of Presence means that you provide services at a
> location via someone else's facilities.
> 
> The classic example was extending a PRI for dialup modems inside a
> particular local calling area via a point-to-point T1 back to your
> modem bank somewhere else that would have been a long distance call
> for those customers. If you put a modem bank in their local calling
> area, it's a POP. If you extend the circuit from their local calling
> area back to your modem bank elsewhere, it's a virtual POP.
> 
> Modern examples of virtual POPs are much fancier but it's the same basic idea.
> 
> 
>> 1. Is virtual POP basically a L2VPN?
> 
> It can be. Depends on what service you're extending from the "virtual" 
> location.
> 
> 
>> 2. Do such vPOP have guaranteed latency/bandwidth?
> 
> Depends on what you're extending and how.
> 
> 
>> 3. Is that really useful?
> 
> It can be. It can let you dip your toes in a market without a large
> up-front investment in equipment and backhaul.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
> 
> 
> --
> William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
> Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
> Dirtside Systems<http://www.dirtside.com/>
> www.dirtside.com
> Welcome! You are our 370,765 th guest. Dirtside builds ground systems and 
> ground system software for the satellite and mobile communications industries.
> 
> 

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Rod Beck]

Yes, except it is done via Switched Ethernet and VLANs. The idea behind virtual 
peering. Your gear is in Amsterdam and someone gives you VLANs to LINX.


- R.



From: NANOG <nanog-boun...@nanog.org> on behalf of William Herrin 
<b...@herrin.us>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:46 AM
To: Yucong Sun
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Yucong Sun <sunyuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I came across the idea of the virtual POP  , but the website for them have
> way too much jargon to me[1][2][3], can someone explain it like i'm five
> (:-D)?

A virtual Point Of Presence means that you provide services at a
location via someone else's facilities.

The classic example was extending a PRI for dialup modems inside a
particular local calling area via a point-to-point T1 back to your
modem bank somewhere else that would have been a long distance call
for those customers. If you put a modem bank in their local calling
area, it's a POP. If you extend the circuit from their local calling
area back to your modem bank elsewhere, it's a virtual POP.

Modern examples of virtual POPs are much fancier but it's the same basic idea.


> 1. Is virtual POP basically a L2VPN?

It can be. Depends on what service you're extending from the "virtual" location.


> 2. Do such vPOP have guaranteed latency/bandwidth?

Depends on what you're extending and how.


> 3. Is that really useful?

It can be. It can let you dip your toes in a market without a large
up-front investment in equipment and backhaul.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
Dirtside Systems<http://www.dirtside.com/>
www.dirtside.com
Welcome! You are our 370,765 th guest. Dirtside builds ground systems and 
ground system software for the satellite and mobile communications industries.

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Mark Tinka]

On 24/Aug/16 01:20, Yucong Sun wrote:

> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I understand on layer 2 or like william point out (on anything other than
> IP) it make total sense.
>
> However on layer 3, with existing transit bandwith with said provider it
> would be redudant. (Assume The one you wanted peer at site b is already
> peering with your provider).

The term "virtual PoP" is more commercial than it is technical.

As William mentioned, you are providing services via someone else's
infrastructure. It is between you and that other network to determine
how much of their infrastructure you will depend on.

But ultimately, the objective is for you to reduce your exposure in what
you would consider a new venture that still needs some proofing.

Mark.

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Jared Mauch]

This could be done with an OPS and diverse fibers or a dual transponder type 
solution or an Ethernet ring amongst other solutions. 

It generally means to router geeks that a router isn't there, but some other 
technology is in use. Often it is a growing market or declining market for the 
provider. 

Jared Mauch

> On Aug 23, 2016, at 7:20 PM, Yucong Sun  wrote:
> 
> However on layer 3, with existing transit bandwith with said provider it
> would be redudant. (Assume The one you wanted peer at site b is already
> peering with your provider).

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Yucong Sun]

Thanks for the explanation.

I understand on layer 2 or like william point out (on anything other than
IP) it make total sense.

However on layer 3, with existing transit bandwith with said provider it
would be redudant. (Assume The one you wanted peer at site b is already
peering with your provider).

Cheers.

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 15:51 Rod Beck <rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com>
wrote:

> Yes, except it is done via Switched Ethernet and VLANs. The idea behind
> virtual peering. Your gear is in Amsterdam and someone gives you VLANs to
> LINX.
>
>
> - R.
>
>
> --
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-boun...@nanog.org> on behalf of William Herrin <
> b...@herrin.us>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:46 AM
> *To:* Yucong Sun
> *Cc:* NANOG
>
> *Subject:* Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Yucong Sun <sunyuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I came across the idea of the virtual POP  , but the website for them
> have
> > way too much jargon to me[1][2][3], can someone explain it like i'm five
> > (:-D)?
>
> A virtual Point Of Presence means that you provide services at a
> location via someone else's facilities.
>
> The classic example was extending a PRI for dialup modems inside a
> particular local calling area via a point-to-point T1 back to your
> modem bank somewhere else that would have been a long distance call
> for those customers. If you put a modem bank in their local calling
> area, it's a POP. If you extend the circuit from their local calling
> area back to your modem bank elsewhere, it's a virtual POP.
>
> Modern examples of virtual POPs are much fancier but it's the same basic
> idea.
>
>
> > 1. Is virtual POP basically a L2VPN?
>
> It can be. Depends on what service you're extending from the "virtual"
> location.
>
>
> > 2. Do such vPOP have guaranteed latency/bandwidth?
>
> Depends on what you're extending and how.
>
>
> > 3. Is that really useful?
>
> It can be. It can let you dip your toes in a market without a large
> up-front investment in equipment and backhaul.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
> --
> William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
> Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
> Dirtside Systems <http://www.dirtside.com/>
> www.dirtside.com
> Welcome! You are our 370,765 th guest. Dirtside builds ground systems and
> ground system software for the satellite and mobile communications
> industries.
>
>

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Yucong Sun  wrote:
> I came across the idea of the virtual POP  , but the website for them have
> way too much jargon to me[1][2][3], can someone explain it like i'm five
> (:-D)?

A virtual Point Of Presence means that you provide services at a
location via someone else's facilities.

The classic example was extending a PRI for dialup modems inside a
particular local calling area via a point-to-point T1 back to your
modem bank somewhere else that would have been a long distance call
for those customers. If you put a modem bank in their local calling
area, it's a POP. If you extend the circuit from their local calling
area back to your modem bank elsewhere, it's a virtual POP.

Modern examples of virtual POPs are much fancier but it's the same basic idea.


> 1. Is virtual POP basically a L2VPN?

It can be. Depends on what service you're extending from the "virtual" location.


> 2. Do such vPOP have guaranteed latency/bandwidth?

Depends on what you're extending and how.


> 3. Is that really useful?

It can be. It can let you dip your toes in a market without a large
up-front investment in equipment and backhaul.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: