subject:"questions about ARIN ipv6 allocation"

Re: questions about ARIN ipv6 allocation

2021-12-13 Thread Owen DeLong via NANOG



> On Dec 11, 2021, at 02:44 , John Curran  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 10 Dec 2021, at 5:00 PM, John Gilmore > > wrote:
>> ...
>> Owen, the root of your problem is that you signed an LRSA with ARIN,
>> rather than keeping your legacy resources un-tainted by an ARIN contract
>> that deliberately reduced your rights
> 
> 
> Signing a contract with ARIN certainly clarifies and makes specific the 
> rights involved, but it is not possible to say “reduces” with any certainty 
> as the existing rights are rather unclear without a specific statement of 
> what rights were granted at the time.   Alas, issuance of number resources in 
> the early days did not make the rights or associated obligations clear.   
> Some legacy resource holders find entering into an RSA with ARIN to be quite 
> useful and others prefer not to – that choice is up to them, and is not 
> required as the the ARIN Board of Trustees has directed that ARIN continue to 
> provide the same basic registration services available at our formation to 
> all legacy resource holders without fee or contract. 

There is at least one certain reduction… It removes the right to stop doing 
business with ARIN without surrendering the rights you had before you started.

>> The short-term contract for the transfer honors and retains the legacy
>> status of those resources: that you own them, not the ARIN fiction that
>> an RIR now controls them and will steal them from you if you stop paying
>> them annually.
> 
> For organizations that do enter into a registration agreement with ARIN, 
> there are indeed obligations (such as payment of registry fees) that are 
> quite real but also benefits such as the ability to obtain new services 
> funded by such fees and participation in the governance of ARIN.  As noted 
> above - folks can enter into an agreement (or not) as they deem best.  Note 
> one of the other advantages of the upcoming change to ARIN’s fee structure is 
> that it will also open up ARIN membership and voting to all contracted 
> registry customers with IPv4 or IPv6 number resources – rather than just 
> those previously deemed ISPs – so those who do enter into a RSA and choose to 
> participate in ARIN governance will have the equal ability to vote for the 
> Board and set ARIN’s practices with regard to legacy resource holders. 

I have no use for these supposed new services (which as near as I can tell boil 
down to RPKI and a new version of an IRR which equivalent service can be 
obtained elsewhere at no cost, such as ALTDB).

Since I’ve never used any of these supposed new services and they are of no 
benefit to me, subsidizing them at an ever increasing price ins’t an attractive 
option.

There was a time when entering into the agreement seemed best. Unfortunately, 
the problem is the hotel California nature of the agreement. You can check in 
any time you like, but you can never leave (at least not in tact).

Owen

Re: questions about ARIN ipv6 allocation

2021-12-11 Thread John Curran


On 10 Dec 2021, at 5:00 PM, John Gilmore mailto:g...@toad.com>> 
wrote:
...
Owen, the root of your problem is that you signed an LRSA with ARIN,
rather than keeping your legacy resources un-tainted by an ARIN contract
that deliberately reduced your rights

Signing a contract with ARIN certainly clarifies and makes specific the rights 
involved, but it is not possible to say “reduces” with any certainty as the 
existing rights are rather unclear without a specific statement of what rights 
were granted at the time.   Alas, issuance of number resources in the early 
days did not make the rights or associated obligations clear.   Some legacy 
resource holders find entering into an RSA with ARIN to be quite useful and 
others prefer not to – that choice is up to them, and is not required as the 
the ARIN Board of Trustees has directed that ARIN continue to provide the same 
basic registration services available at our formation to all legacy resource 
holders without fee or contract.

The short-term contract for the transfer honors and retains the legacy
status of those resources: that you own them, not the ARIN fiction that
an RIR now controls them and will steal them from you if you stop paying
them annually.

For organizations that do enter into a registration agreement with ARIN, there 
are indeed obligations (such as payment of registry fees) that are quite real 
but also benefits such as the ability to obtain new services funded by such 
fees and participation in the governance of ARIN.  As noted above - folks can 
enter into an agreement (or not) as they deem best.  Note one of the other 
advantages of the upcoming change to ARIN’s fee structure is that it will also 
open up ARIN membership and voting to all contracted registry customers with 
IPv4 or IPv6 number resources – rather than just those previously deemed ISPs – 
so those who do enter into a RSA and choose to participate in ARIN governance 
will have the equal ability to vote for the Board and set ARIN’s practices with 
regard to legacy resource holders.

Thanks,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers

Re: questions about ARIN ipv6 allocation

2021-12-10 Thread John Gilmore

Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote:
> The double billing (had it been present at the time) would have prevented me
> from signing the LRSA for my IPv4 resources.

Owen, the root of your problem is that you signed an LRSA with ARIN,
rather than keeping your legacy resources un-tainted by an ARIN contract
that deliberately reduced your rights.

When ARDC transferred 44.192/10 via ARIN, the recipient lost the legacy
status of the address block. That was an ARIN requirement, which was OK
with that particular recipient. However, ARIN is not your only option.

It is possible to transfer legacy resources such as IPv4 address blocks
from ARIN to RIPE, having them be recognized as legacy blocks under RIPE
jurisdiction. You can do this without signing any long term contract
with RIPE, if you like; or you can choose to become a long-term paying
RIPE member, under their fee schedule. All you need is to have any
Internet resources in Europe -- like a virtual machine in a data center
there, or a DNS server. I'm sure of this because I have done it; see

https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/lookup?source=ripe=209.16.159.0%20-%20209.16.159.255=inetnum

The short-term contract for the transfer honors and retains the legacy
status of those resources: that you own them, not the ARIN fiction that
an RIR now controls them and will steal them from you if you stop paying
them annually.

Randy Bush detailed a similar transfer process back in 2016:

https://archive.psg.com/160524.ripe-transfer.pdf

The process is more bureaucratic and cumbersome than you expect;
Europeans named bureacracy in the 1800s, and RIPE has raised it to a
painful art. But once it's done, you are out from under the ARIN
anti-legacy mentality forever.

John Gilmore

PS: If you want RPKI, which I didn't, you can sign a RIPE long term
contract, pay them annually, and (according to Randy) they will STILL
honor your ownership of your resources, unlike ARIN.

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