Re: subrate SFP?
On (2013-08-30 11:30 -0400), Tim Durack wrote: It would be interesting to have some other smart SFP options too, like macsec for example... Or HQoS in a SFP, for that one port which kills your ability to get away with cheap L3-switch style box :) But tbh the moment you'll need control-plane in the SFP, it becomes complicated for me to deploy, as then I need to figure out configuration backups, provisioning support etc. -- ++ytti
Re: subrate SFP?
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Jamie Bowden ja...@photon.com wrote: From: Saku Ytti [mailto:s...@ytti.fi] Considering that Dell and HP at least are shipping brand new hardware with IPMI/BMC/iLO/whatever management ports that can only speak 100mbit when every other Ethernet interface in the box at least gigabit, having a useful way to talk to that port without having to keep separate switching hardware around would be nice. I'm not holding my breath, but you know, along with a pony, this would be nice. Eh? That may have been the case a few years ago, but HP ILO4 and iDRAC7 specifically list 10/100/1000 even when using in dedicated port mode. And even in prior versions, you could have the port linking up at 1Gbps, by operating the management in Shared port mode (Sharing the management with the server's Eth0). I expect over time: support for linking up at 10/100 will get rarer and much more expensive. The niche status a 10/100 media converter as an SFP would have if produced is likely to mean it would retail at $2000+ per port device. It probably just makes more sense to go find an old obsolete top of rack switch, like a Cat3750 to get the small fraction of legacy copper ports required for out of band network and server management, which: by the way, should be part of a separate switching infrastructure anyways, to increase the chance it stays operational and useful for troubleshooting, in the event the production network experiences outage or has other issues requiring diagnosis. Jamie -- -JH
Re: subrate SFP?
On hp proliant gen8 servers with management and ilo on same port, with the server off the ports show up as 100mbps. Jimmy Hess mysi...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Jamie Bowden ja...@photon.com wrote: From: Saku Ytti [mailto:s...@ytti.fi] Considering that Dell and HP at least are shipping brand new hardware with IPMI/BMC/iLO/whatever management ports that can only speak 100mbit when every other Ethernet interface in the box at least gigabit, having a useful way to talk to that port without having to keep separate switching hardware around would be nice. I'm not holding my breath, but you know, along with a pony, this would be nice. Eh? That may have been the case a few years ago, but HP ILO4 and iDRAC7 specifically list 10/100/1000 even when using in dedicated port mode. And even in prior versions, you could have the port linking up at 1Gbps, by operating the management in Shared port mode (Sharing the management with the server's Eth0). I expect over time: support for linking up at 10/100 will get rarer and much more expensive. The niche status a 10/100 media converter as an SFP would have if produced is likely to mean it would retail at $2000+ per port device. It probably just makes more sense to go find an old obsolete top of rack switch, like a Cat3750 to get the small fraction of legacy copper ports required for out of band network and server management, which: by the way, should be part of a separate switching infrastructure anyways, to increase the chance it stays operational and useful for troubleshooting, in the event the production network experiences outage or has other issues requiring diagnosis. Jamie -- -JH -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: subrate SFP?
WOL uses 100Mb/s, the phy draws less that way. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 31, 2013, at 10:13, Charles N Wyble charles-li...@knownelement.com wrote: On hp proliant gen8 servers with management and ilo on same port, with the server off the ports show up as 100mbps. Jimmy Hess mysi...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Jamie Bowden ja...@photon.com wrote: From: Saku Ytti [mailto:s...@ytti.fi] Considering that Dell and HP at least are shipping brand new hardware with IPMI/BMC/iLO/whatever management ports that can only speak 100mbit when every other Ethernet interface in the box at least gigabit, having a useful way to talk to that port without having to keep separate switching hardware around would be nice. I'm not holding my breath, but you know, along with a pony, this would be nice. Eh? That may have been the case a few years ago, but HP ILO4 and iDRAC7 specifically list 10/100/1000 even when using in dedicated port mode. And even in prior versions, you could have the port linking up at 1Gbps, by operating the management in Shared port mode (Sharing the management with the server's Eth0). I expect over time: support for linking up at 10/100 will get rarer and much more expensive. The niche status a 10/100 media converter as an SFP would have if produced is likely to mean it would retail at $2000+ per port device. It probably just makes more sense to go find an old obsolete top of rack switch, like a Cat3750 to get the small fraction of legacy copper ports required for out of band network and server management, which: by the way, should be part of a separate switching infrastructure anyways, to increase the chance it stays operational and useful for troubleshooting, in the event the production network experiences outage or has other issues requiring diagnosis. Jamie -- -JH -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: subrate SFP?
Ah, I needed *another* reason to murder WOL in it's sleep. Thanks! Nick On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Joel Jaeggli joe...@bogus.com wrote: WOL uses 100Mb/s, the phy draws less that way. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 31, 2013, at 10:13, Charles N Wyble charles-li...@knownelement.com wrote: On hp proliant gen8 servers with management and ilo on same port, with the server off the ports show up as 100mbps. Jimmy Hess mysi...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Jamie Bowden ja...@photon.com wrote: From: Saku Ytti [mailto:s...@ytti.fi] Considering that Dell and HP at least are shipping brand new hardware with IPMI/BMC/iLO/whatever management ports that can only speak 100mbit when every other Ethernet interface in the box at least gigabit, having a useful way to talk to that port without having to keep separate switching hardware around would be nice. I'm not holding my breath, but you know, along with a pony, this would be nice. Eh? That may have been the case a few years ago, but HP ILO4 and iDRAC7 specifically list 10/100/1000 even when using in dedicated port mode. And even in prior versions, you could have the port linking up at 1Gbps, by operating the management in Shared port mode (Sharing the management with the server's Eth0). I expect over time: support for linking up at 10/100 will get rarer and much more expensive. The niche status a 10/100 media converter as an SFP would have if produced is likely to mean it would retail at $2000+ per port device. It probably just makes more sense to go find an old obsolete top of rack switch, like a Cat3750 to get the small fraction of legacy copper ports required for out of band network and server management, which: by the way, should be part of a separate switching infrastructure anyways, to increase the chance it stays operational and useful for troubleshooting, in the event the production network experiences outage or has other issues requiring diagnosis. Jamie -- -JH -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: subrate SFP?
Unless I missed something, iLO is always on when the machine has power; as such, WOL shouldn't be coming into play on reasonably modern HP servers. (That said, the power draw is likely still the reason, although I can't readily confirm Charles' observation on my only rackmount Gen8.) Jima On 2013-08-31 13:38, Joel Jaeggli wrote: WOL uses 100Mb/s, the phy draws less that way. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 31, 2013, at 10:13, Charles N Wyble charles-li...@knownelement.com wrote: On hp proliant gen8 servers with management and ilo on same port, with the server off the ports show up as 100mbps. Jimmy Hess mysi...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Jamie Bowden ja...@photon.com wrote: From: Saku Ytti [mailto:s...@ytti.fi] Considering that Dell and HP at least are shipping brand new hardware with IPMI/BMC/iLO/whatever management ports that can only speak 100mbit when every other Ethernet interface in the box at least gigabit, having a useful way to talk to that port without having to keep separate switching hardware around would be nice. I'm not holding my breath, but you know, along with a pony, this would be nice. Eh? That may have been the case a few years ago, but HP ILO4 and iDRAC7 specifically list 10/100/1000 even when using in dedicated port mode. And even in prior versions, you could have the port linking up at 1Gbps, by operating the management in Shared port mode (Sharing the management with the server's Eth0). I expect over time: support for linking up at 10/100 will get rarer and much more expensive. The niche status a 10/100 media converter as an SFP would have if produced is likely to mean it would retail at $2000+ per port device. It probably just makes more sense to go find an old obsolete top of rack switch, like a Cat3750 to get the small fraction of legacy copper ports required for out of band network and server management, which: by the way, should be part of a separate switching infrastructure anyways, to increase the chance it stays operational and useful for troubleshooting, in the event the production network experiences outage or has other issues requiring diagnosis. Jamie -- -JH -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: subrate SFP?
I got quite a bit of replies from sellers selling me cuSFP, insisting they work. So I'd like to clear up on this. For 10/100 to work on SFP slot, the PHY in the host needs to be multirate. Exception is SGMII which supposedly supports magic mode where SFP can ask it to send same bit 10 times, then SFP can discard 9/10 bits, to remain very dumb yet deliver 100M client on 1GE host. RGMII does not support this trick and this trick does not bring you down to 10M. One box that we have right now, which can't do any of this is ME-4924. There is absolutely no reason that you couldn't deliver 'media converter' or '2 port switch' in a SFP casing, to get that 1 10/100 port in every 4500-X or EX4550 port you need to cater some legacy. If my desire is odd (2 people have expressed off list they want same) this won't be built. But if this is somewhat common demand and missing product, we can certainly get such SFP built. Obviously this SFP would cost bit more than normal cuSFP, as it needs to do rudimentary buffering, packet dropping and it needs to have frame parser. On 29 August 2013 23:38, joel jaeggli joe...@bogus.com wrote: On 8/29/13 6:08 AM, Saku Ytti wrote: How do people deal with situation where you need =48 SFP/SFP+ ports, but you occasionally need one or two cu 10/100 ports? arista 7050s support 100 Mb/s on their copper sfp I have leveraged that, if you can break out the 40Gb/s ports you have as many as 64 ports of 10Gb/s. there are other switches that I've seen do this but they're not common. My problem is mostly around PDU/CDU management, in racks that otherwise would be 10Gb/s only and in general I've addressed it with dedicated switches that support many of these devices rather than just two. For some reason it's becoming quite rare for SFP port to natively support 10M and 100M rates. Technically obviously solution to me would be subrate SFP, which presents itself as 1GE to host, offering 100M or 10M to client. This would obviously break QoS at the host as host would still think it's 1GE and SFP itself would need to drop+buffer. But for my applications it would be fine, the 10M or 100M ports are typical some MGMT access interfaces. I can't imagine such SFP being complex or expensive, considering we have E1 over IP in a SFP, which includes control-plane and forwarding-plane inside SFP form-factor Is this demand peculiar? Could I source such SFP somewhere by showing there is demand? Putting 2 port switches or fibre converters with external PSU just to support few ports seem dirty. -- ++ytti
Re: subrate SFP?
There is absolutely no reason that you couldn't deliver 'media converter' or '2 port switch' in a SFP casing Yes, similar devices exist http://www.rad.com/10/SFP-Format-TDM-Pseudowire-Gateway/10267/ so it probably just needs more demand brandon
Re: subrate SFP?
I actually emailed RAD, MethodE and Avago yesterday and pitched the idea. MiTOP is my exact justification why it should technically be feasible. I guess it would be easier to pitch, if there would be commitment to buy, but I don't personally need many units, just 1-2 here and there. On 30 August 2013 11:56, Brandon Butterworth bran...@rd.bbc.co.uk wrote: There is absolutely no reason that you couldn't deliver 'media converter' or '2 port switch' in a SFP casing Yes, similar devices exist http://www.rad.com/10/SFP-Format-TDM-Pseudowire-Gateway/10267/ so it probably just needs more demand brandon -- ++ytti
Re: subrate SFP?
I actually emailed RAD, MethodE and Avago yesterday and pitched the idea. MiTOP is my exact justification why it should technically be feasible. I guess it would be easier to pitch, if there would be commitment to buy, but I don't personally need many units, just 1-2 here and there. I doubt you'd want to pay MiTOP prices, though. Steinar Haug, AS 2116
RE: subrate SFP?
From: Saku Ytti [mailto:s...@ytti.fi] I got quite a bit of replies from sellers selling me cuSFP, insisting they work. So I'd like to clear up on this. For 10/100 to work on SFP slot, the PHY in the host needs to be multirate. Exception is SGMII which supposedly supports magic mode where SFP can ask it to send same bit 10 times, then SFP can discard 9/10 bits, to remain very dumb yet deliver 100M client on 1GE host. RGMII does not support this trick and this trick does not bring you down to 10M. One box that we have right now, which can't do any of this is ME-4924. There is absolutely no reason that you couldn't deliver 'media converter' or '2 port switch' in a SFP casing, to get that 1 10/100 port in every 4500-X or EX4550 port you need to cater some legacy. If my desire is odd (2 people have expressed off list they want same) this won't be built. But if this is somewhat common demand and missing product, we can certainly get such SFP built. Obviously this SFP would cost bit more than normal cuSFP, as it needs to do rudimentary buffering, packet dropping and it needs to have frame parser. Considering that Dell and HP at least are shipping brand new hardware with IPMI/BMC/iLO/whatever management ports that can only speak 100mbit when every other Ethernet interface in the box at least gigabit, having a useful way to talk to that port without having to keep separate switching hardware around would be nice. I'm not holding my breath, but you know, along with a pony, this would be nice. Jamie
Re: subrate SFP?
I think this is a great idea. Maybe not a huge market, but I would buy them, instead of having to use dumb transceivers. It would be interesting to have some other smart SFP options too, like macsec for example... Tim: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 5:00 AM, Saku Ytti s...@ytti.fi wrote: I actually emailed RAD, MethodE and Avago yesterday and pitched the idea. MiTOP is my exact justification why it should technically be feasible. I guess it would be easier to pitch, if there would be commitment to buy, but I don't personally need many units, just 1-2 here and there. On 30 August 2013 11:56, Brandon Butterworth bran...@rd.bbc.co.uk wrote: There is absolutely no reason that you couldn't deliver 'media converter' or '2 port switch' in a SFP casing Yes, similar devices exist http://www.rad.com/10/SFP-Format-TDM-Pseudowire-Gateway/10267/ so it probably just needs more demand brandon -- ++ytti -- Tim:
subrate SFP?
How do people deal with situation where you need =48 SFP/SFP+ ports, but you occasionally need one or two cu 10/100 ports? For some reason it's becoming quite rare for SFP port to natively support 10M and 100M rates. Technically obviously solution to me would be subrate SFP, which presents itself as 1GE to host, offering 100M or 10M to client. This would obviously break QoS at the host as host would still think it's 1GE and SFP itself would need to drop+buffer. But for my applications it would be fine, the 10M or 100M ports are typical some MGMT access interfaces. I can't imagine such SFP being complex or expensive, considering we have E1 over IP in a SFP, which includes control-plane and forwarding-plane inside SFP form-factor Is this demand peculiar? Could I source such SFP somewhere by showing there is demand? Putting 2 port switches or fibre converters with external PSU just to support few ports seem dirty. -- ++ytti
Re: subrate SFP?
On 8/29/13 6:08 AM, Saku Ytti wrote: How do people deal with situation where you need =48 SFP/SFP+ ports, but you occasionally need one or two cu 10/100 ports? arista 7050s support 100 Mb/s on their copper sfp I have leveraged that, if you can break out the 40Gb/s ports you have as many as 64 ports of 10Gb/s. there are other switches that I've seen do this but they're not common. My problem is mostly around PDU/CDU management, in racks that otherwise would be 10Gb/s only and in general I've addressed it with dedicated switches that support many of these devices rather than just two. For some reason it's becoming quite rare for SFP port to natively support 10M and 100M rates. Technically obviously solution to me would be subrate SFP, which presents itself as 1GE to host, offering 100M or 10M to client. This would obviously break QoS at the host as host would still think it's 1GE and SFP itself would need to drop+buffer. But for my applications it would be fine, the 10M or 100M ports are typical some MGMT access interfaces. I can't imagine such SFP being complex or expensive, considering we have E1 over IP in a SFP, which includes control-plane and forwarding-plane inside SFP form-factor Is this demand peculiar? Could I source such SFP somewhere by showing there is demand? Putting 2 port switches or fibre converters with external PSU just to support few ports seem dirty.
