RE: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Fox, Barbara via NANOG]

I asked a submarine guy how much the fibers can carry because this sounded low 
to me.  His response:

it depends on the type of cable. Older cables (with embedded dispersion 
compensation) have a lot less capacity and I have seen some as low as 1Tb/s per 
fiber pair and some as high as 10Tb/s per fiber pair. All newer D+ Cables that 
have been deployed in the last 5 years and will be the only cables deployed 
going forward can easily carry 20Tb/s of capacity per fiber pair. Something 
Like Havfrue can support 22T per fiber pair and there are 8 fiber pairs for a 
total of 176T.

Barbara

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mark Tinka
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 7:13 AM
To: Rod Beck ; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair


On 1/27/21 13:39, Rod Beck wrote:
How much spectrum is a half fibre? It must be standardized in some fashion.

It would be based on the amount of capacity each fibre in the overall system 
can carry across a given line system span.

So say a cable system is able to carry 960Gbps per fibre pair, and it has 5 
fibre pairs, that means a half fibre pair purchased by one of the consortium 
members would be 480Gbps.

It is also possible for a consortium member to own a full + a fractional fibre 
pair, e.g., two and a-half fibre pairs. In such a contract, for example, say a 
24 fibre-pair system could carry 1.2Tbps per fibre pair, that member would have 
3Tbps of capacity.

Mark.

Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/27/21 19:54, Mike Hammett wrote:

I believe strand counts were small because the power needed for that 
many amplifiers was too much to bear for budgets.


Also because the amount of capacity we are talking about nowadays, 
driven by the content folk, is something telco's could only (and still) 
dream of.





I suspect it's a combination of more power efficient amplifiers and a 
greater willingness to bear the extra costs to get the capacity that 
hyperscalers need.


Have many of those higher strand count cables been proposed that have 
any distance to them that don't have a variety of hyperscalers in the 
anchor tenants?


You guessed it... it's not traditional telco's pushing cable builds anymore.



It's a lot cheaper to power a 300 km cable than a 3,000 km cable.


It's not uncommon to have multiple fibre pairs on shorter spans and 
fewer on longer/express ones. But yes, longer systems cost a lot more 
money; for everything, not just power.


Mark.

Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/27/21 18:11, Rod Beck wrote:

What is interesting is this new deep sea design. In the old days 
cables had 4 to 8 pairs max. Now I am seeing Orange talking about 18 
pairs and 24 pairs. With more widely regeneration.


Because of the way current submarine cables are being built (mainly by 
the content folk, less by traditional telco's), limiting the number of 
fibre pairs does not make sense anymore, especially for them since they 
would be partnering with some carriers along the route.


I mean, you're already laying it. Fibre, itself, doesn't cost that 
much... the cost is elsewhere.


Mark.

Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/27/21 16:52, Fox, Barbara wrote:

I asked a submarine guy how much the fibers can carry because this 
sounded low to me.  His response:




That was just an example to illustrate the commercial contracting, not 
the technical capabilities.


Cables currently being laid in the sea are going in at anywhere between 
16 and 24 fibre pairs. The design capacity per fibre pair of these 
systems is 20Tbps, with a possible 480Tbps of Shannon limit capability.


Mark.

Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Mike Hammett]

I believe strand counts were small because the power needed for that many 
amplifiers was too much to bear for budgets. 

I suspect it's a combination of more power efficient amplifiers and a greater 
willingness to bear the extra costs to get the capacity that hyperscalers need. 


Have many of those higher strand count cables been proposed that have any 
distance to them that don't have a variety of hyperscalers in the anchor 
tenants? It's a lot cheaper to power a 300 km cable than a 3,000 km cable. 


Also, I don't just mean in the MRC, but in the NRC of the plant needed to 
supply and transmit that much power. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Rod Beck"  
To: "Barbara Fox" , "Mark Tinka" , 
nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 10:11:29 AM 
Subject: Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair 


What is interesting is this new deep sea design. In the old days cables had 4 
to 8 pairs max. Now I am seeing Orange talking about 18 pairs and 24 pairs. 
With more widely regeneration. 



https://www.orange.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2021/orange-takes-leading-role-us-europe-route-two-new-generation-submarine
 





Orange takes a leading role in the US to Europe route with two new generation 
submarine cables linking the East Coast to France | Orange Com 
After the landing of the Dunant cable, a Google project announced back in March 
2020, Orange announces it is now ready for service for its wholesale and 
business customers. With 12 fibre pairs with over 30 Tbps of capacity each, 
multiplying by three the previous generation of transatlantic submarine cables 
capacity. Orange also announces the signature of a partnership on the AMITIÉ 
cable ... 
www.orange.com 



Regards, 



Rdoerick. 








From: Fox, Barbara  
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 3:52 PM 
To: Mark Tinka ; Rod Beck 
; nanog@nanog.org  
Subject: RE: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair 



I asked a submarine guy how much the fibers can carry because this sounded low 
to me. His response: 

it depends on the type of cable. Older cables (with embedded dispersion 
compensation) have a lot less capacity and I have seen some as low as 1Tb/s per 
fiber pair and some as high as 10Tb/s per fiber pair. All newer D+ Cables that 
have been deployed in the last 5 years and will be the only cables deployed 
going forward can easily carry 20Tb/s of capacity per fiber pair. Something 
Like Havfrue can support 22T per fiber pair and there are 8 fiber pairs for a 
total of 176T. 

Barbara 



From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mark Tinka 
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 7:13 AM 
To: Rod Beck ; nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair 



On 1/27/21 13:39, Rod Beck wrote: 



How much spectrum is a half fibre? It must be standardized in some fashion. 



It would be based on the amount of capacity each fibre in the overall system 
can carry across a given line system span. 

So say a cable system is able to carry 960Gbps per fibre pair, and it has 5 
fibre pairs, that means a half fibre pair purchased by one of the consortium 
members would be 480Gbps. 

It is also possible for a consortium member to own a full + a fractional fibre 
pair, e.g., two and a-half fibre pairs. In such a contract, for example, say a 
24 fibre-pair system could carry 1.2Tbps per fibre pair, that member would have 
3Tbps of capacity. 

Mark. 

Re: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Rod Beck]

What is interesting is this new deep sea design. In the old days cables had 4 
to 8 pairs max. Now I am seeing Orange talking about 18 pairs and 24 pairs. 
With more widely regeneration.

https://www.orange.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2021/orange-takes-leading-role-us-europe-route-two-new-generation-submarine
[https://www.orange.com/sites/orangecom/files/styles/crop_4_3_large/public/2021-01/Amiti%C3%A9%20Dunant.jpg?h=dcad9be9=ZFfo2VK1]<https://www.orange.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2021/orange-takes-leading-role-us-europe-route-two-new-generation-submarine>
Orange takes a leading role in the US to Europe route with two new generation 
submarine cables linking the East Coast to France | Orange 
Com<https://www.orange.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2021/orange-takes-leading-role-us-europe-route-two-new-generation-submarine>
After the landing of the Dunant cable, a Google project announced back in March 
2020, Orange announces it is now ready for service for its wholesale and 
business customers. With 12 fibre pairs with over 30 Tbps of capacity each, 
multiplying by three the previous generation of transatlantic submarine cables 
capacity. Orange also announces the signature of a partnership on the AMITIÉ 
cable ...
www.orange.com


Regards,

Rdoerick.



From: Fox, Barbara 
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 3:52 PM
To: Mark Tinka ; Rod Beck 
; nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: RE: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair


I asked a submarine guy how much the fibers can carry because this sounded low 
to me.  His response:



it depends on the type of cable. Older cables (with embedded dispersion 
compensation) have a lot less capacity and I have seen some as low as 1Tb/s per 
fiber pair and some as high as 10Tb/s per fiber pair. All newer D+ Cables that 
have been deployed in the last 5 years and will be the only cables deployed 
going forward can easily carry 20Tb/s of capacity per fiber pair. Something 
Like Havfrue can support 22T per fiber pair and there are 8 fiber pairs for a 
total of 176T.



Barbara



From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mark Tinka
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 7:13 AM
To: Rod Beck ; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: Half Fibre Pair





On 1/27/21 13:39, Rod Beck wrote:

How much spectrum is a half fibre? It must be standardized in some fashion.

It would be based on the amount of capacity each fibre in the overall system 
can carry across a given line system span.

So say a cable system is able to carry 960Gbps per fibre pair, and it has 5 
fibre pairs, that means a half fibre pair purchased by one of the consortium 
members would be 480Gbps.

It is also possible for a consortium member to own a full + a fractional fibre 
pair, e.g., two and a-half fibre pairs. In such a contract, for example, say a 
24 fibre-pair system could carry 1.2Tbps per fibre pair, that member would have 
3Tbps of capacity.

Mark.

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/27/21 13:39, Rod Beck wrote:

How much spectrum is a half fibre? It must be standardized in some 
fashion.


It would be based on the amount of capacity each fibre in the overall 
system can carry across a given line system span.


So say a cable system is able to carry 960Gbps per fibre pair, and it 
has 5 fibre pairs, that means a half fibre pair purchased by one of the 
consortium members would be 480Gbps.


It is also possible for a consortium member to own a full + a fractional 
fibre pair, e.g., two and a-half fibre pairs. In such a contract, for 
example, say a 24 fibre-pair system could carry 1.2Tbps per fibre pair, 
that member would have 3Tbps of capacity.


Mark.

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Rod Beck]

How much spectrum is a half fibre? It must be standardized in some fashion.

Regards,

Roderick.


From: NANOG  on behalf 
of Mark Tinka 
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 12:33 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: Half Fibre Pair



On 1/26/21 22:51, Rod Beck wrote:

Can someone explain to me what is a half fibre pair? I took it literally to 
mean a single fibre strand but someone insisted it was a large quantity of 
spectrum. Please illuminate. On or off list as you please.

It is language used in the submarine world, where a member of the consortium 
may not be able to afford a full fibre pair on the system.

Don't take it literally :-).

Mark.

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/26/21 22:51, Rod Beck wrote:

Can someone explain to me what is a half fibre pair? I took it 
literally to mean a single fibre strand but someone insisted it was a 
large quantity of spectrum. Please illuminate. On or off list as you 
please.


It is language used in the submarine world, where a member of the 
consortium may not be able to afford a full fibre pair on the system.


Don't take it literally :-).

Mark.

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Ask Bjørn Hansen]

> On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:51, Rod Beck  wrote:
> 
> Can someone explain to me what is a half fibre pair? I took it literally to 
> mean a single fibre strand but someone insisted it was a large quantity of 
> spectrum. Please illuminate. On or off list as you please. 

Depending on the context it could be a single fibre strand for use with 
bi-directional transceivers.

I am guessing it’s not commonly used though, just based on nobody suggesting 
this.


Ask

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Matthew Petach]

You can see the terminology getting referenced in articles such as this one
from Telegeography:

https://www.submarinenetworks.com/en/insights/a-new-coming-for-submarine-cable-systems-the-independent-infrastructure-developers

"Further PLCN incorporates Spectrum Manager, that allows the C+L band to be
sliced into blocks of spectrum that can be independently assigned to
separate SLTE that is owned, operated and upgraded by the party leasing the
spectrum. PLCN has productized it in terms of Minimum Spectrum Unit (MSU)
which is 5% of the total C+L band capacity i.e. 5% of 240x100G or 1.2 Tbps.
It’s extended further as virtual fiber pair with Quarter Fiber Pair as
5xMSU or 6 Tbps and Half Fiber Pair as 10xMSU or 12 Tbps. This notably is
not unique to PLCN and is supported by most [of] the cable systems designed
post 2015 or supported with upgrades."





On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 2:49 PM Rod Beck 
wrote:

> Actually it is standard language in the undersea cable world for a large
> spectrum purchase. Sometimes a fiber pair on a system may be too much, but
> the buyer still wants many terabits of capacity. "
>
> The Half Fiber Pair is the same as 10*MSUs in a virtual fiber pair, either
> in C-band or L-band. I believe these are primarily used in transocean
> routes."
>
>
> This is what I have learned so far.
>
>
> Now that deep sea cables are being deployed with as many as 24 pairs,
> there will be more players doing fractional purchases.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* William Herrin 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 10:56 PM
> *To:* Rod Beck 
> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org 
> *Subject:* Re: Half Fibre Pair
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 12:52 PM Rod Beck
>  wrote:
> > Can someone explain to me what is a half fibre pair? I took it
> > literally to mean a single fibre strand but someone insisted it
> > was a large quantity of spectrum. Please illuminate.
>
>
> Maybe it's like half a pair of glasses, the perfect accessory for the
> one-eyed man who's king.
>
> Seriously though, it sounds like a bad language construction. If a
> vendor is offering you that, I'd ask for clarification. Are they
> leasing a dedicated strand of fiber end-to-end? Dedicated wavelength
> directions delivered by fiber? Something else?
>
> If you're thinking of offering it, find better words.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Rod Beck]

Actually it is standard language in the undersea cable world for a large 
spectrum purchase. Sometimes a fiber pair on a system may be too much, but the 
buyer still wants many terabits of capacity. "

The Half Fiber Pair is the same as 10*MSUs in a virtual fiber pair, either in 
C-band or L-band. I believe these are primarily used in transocean routes."


This is what I have learned so far.


Now that deep sea cables are being deployed with as many as 24 pairs, there 
will be more players doing fractional purchases.





From: William Herrin 
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 10:56 PM
To: Rod Beck 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: Half Fibre Pair

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 12:52 PM Rod Beck
 wrote:
> Can someone explain to me what is a half fibre pair? I took it
> literally to mean a single fibre strand but someone insisted it
> was a large quantity of spectrum. Please illuminate.


Maybe it's like half a pair of glasses, the perfect accessory for the
one-eyed man who's king.

Seriously though, it sounds like a bad language construction. If a
vendor is offering you that, I'd ask for clarification. Are they
leasing a dedicated strand of fiber end-to-end? Dedicated wavelength
directions delivered by fiber? Something else?

If you're thinking of offering it, find better words.

Regards,
Bill Herrin

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

Back in the day, there were these things called half-circuits or half-cables.

Telephone companies in different countries would “share” a cable under the 
ocean, where the company in each country would own “half” the cable - i.e. from 
their shore to the middle of the ocean.

I have no idea what the context here is, but ….

-- 
TTFN,
patrick

> On Jan 26, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Ben Cannon  wrote:
> 
> I’d internet that to be a really weird way to describe a single strand as 
> well, but I could see a confused person asserting it’s 44 out of 88 
> wavelengths? I’ve never heard that.
> 
> Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE
> 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC 
> CEO 
> b...@6by7.net 
> "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the 
> world.”
> 
> FCC License KJ6FJJ
> 
> Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Rod Beck  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Can someone explain to me what is a half fibre pair? I took it literally to 
>> mean a single fibre strand but someone insisted it was a large quantity of 
>> spectrum. Please illuminate. On or off list as you please. 
>> 
>> Regards, 
>> 
>> Roderick. 
>> 
>> Roderick Beck
>> VP of Business Development
>> United Cable Company
>> www.unitedcablecompany.com 
>> New York City & Budapest
>> rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com
>> Budapest: 36-70-605-5144
>> NJ: 908-452-8183 
>> 
>> 

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Ben Cannon]

I’d internet that to be a really weird way to describe a single strand as well, 
but I could see a confused person asserting it’s 44 out of 88 wavelengths? I’ve 
never heard that.

Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC 
CEO 
b...@6by7.net
"The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the 
world.”

FCC License KJ6FJJ

Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.

> On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Rod Beck  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Can someone explain to me what is a half fibre pair? I took it literally to 
> mean a single fibre strand but someone insisted it was a large quantity of 
> spectrum. Please illuminate. On or off list as you please. 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> Roderick. 
> 
> Roderick Beck
> VP of Business Development
> United Cable Company
> www.unitedcablecompany.com
> New York City & Budapest
> rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com
> Budapest: 36-70-605-5144
> NJ: 908-452-8183 
> 
> 

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 12:52 PM Rod Beck
 wrote:
> Can someone explain to me what is a half fibre pair? I took it
> literally to mean a single fibre strand but someone insisted it
> was a large quantity of spectrum. Please illuminate.


Maybe it's like half a pair of glasses, the perfect accessory for the
one-eyed man who's king.

Seriously though, it sounds like a bad language construction. If a
vendor is offering you that, I'd ask for clarification. Are they
leasing a dedicated strand of fiber end-to-end? Dedicated wavelength
directions delivered by fiber? Something else?

If you're thinking of offering it, find better words.

Regards,
Bill Herrin

Re: Half Fibre Pair

[Craig]

single strand / cwdm optics

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 3:52 PM Rod Beck 
wrote:

> Can someone explain to me what is a half fibre pair? I took it literally
> to mean a single fibre strand but someone insisted it was a large quantity
> of spectrum. Please illuminate. On or off list as you please.
>
> Regards,
>
> Roderick.
>
> Roderick Beck
> VP of Business Development
>
> United Cable Company
>
> www.unitedcablecompany.com
>
> New York City & Budapest
>
> rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com
>
> Budapest: 36-70-605-5144
>
> NJ: 908-452-8183
>
>
> [image: 1467221477350_image005.png]
>