Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Aiden Koh]

Hi all:)
first of all, thank you so much Dalibor, what you do is truly amazing; much
like everyone that has heard of you and your work, I'm really grateful for
what you have brought to this great community. I hope in time to come, you
can successfully expand this market and attract many more customers. There
are definitely potential markets waiting for you in the emerging countries,
especially when the "age of analog" is picking up pace in the new
generation. Think turntables, instant cameras, Moleskine notebooks. (On
this topic this bestselling book called " the revenge of analog" by David
Sax, is great).

Also to JohnK and neonjohn, I must thank you for opening me to the
realities of real world manufacturing. I never really understood the
difficulties that come with such manufacturing feats. I really do have a
lot of ground to cover:D From what you guys have said, I understand that my
approach is fundamentally flawed. (doing market research first before
thinking about manufacturing feasibility.)

Anyways, I still believe it's doable to bring the nixie tubes into
mainstream society:)





On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:41 AM, chuck richards 
wrote:

> Dalibor,
>
> Thanks again for all that you do.
>
> You obviously have devoted your whole life for the past several
> years to the manufacturing of high-quality brand new large nixie
> tubes.
>
> There will always be some folks on the side-lines who want to
> talk about and to theorize about "better" and "cheaper" methods
> of tube production.
>
> Not bloody likely!!
>
> What you have accomplished is most remarkable!
>
> I especially like reading the part where you explain that
> computers and automation don't help much.
>
> That is a fact that people who have never tried any production
> methods will argue with.  But, as you point out, once one actually
> does their experiments and starts learning how to get it done, one
> will find that computers and automation just can't cope with the
> entire situation very well at all.
>
> Again, congratulations to you and your entire team of dedicated
> people!
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > Original Message 
> >From: dali...@farny.cz
> >To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
> >Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new
> >nixie tubes
> >Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >>Hello!
> >>
> >>I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of someone
> >who
> >>spent last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-)
> >>
> >>IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so
> >cheap, even
> >>in 60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8 (equal to
> >today's
> >>$64) when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no mercury.
> >Large
> >>tube (B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the nixie
> >tubes
> >>were cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R
> >engineers
> >>and whole tube backing industry. They were produced in large
> >quantities for
> >>lot of equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for
> >digital
> >>clocks, they were simply expensive for consumer market.
> >>You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly russian
> >tubes -
> >>their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists willing
> >to pay
> >>for it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large
> >volumes in
> >>soviet central planned economy, even when the demand was decreasing
> >- this
> >>is why there are still full stocks of them in former soviet
> >countries.
> >>
> >>You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont have
> >much new
> >>technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The
> >use of
> >>computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new
> >technologies like
> >>laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction,
> >jigs..).
> >>There are tens of operations involved in the
> >assembly/sealing/pumping
> >>procedures - the quantity of machines needed for automated line
> >would be
> >>big and their price very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few $M would
> >be
> >>necessary just for the machinery. You would also soon find that
> >automation
> >>make demands on supplier's tolerances ( e.g. glass thickness,
> >diameter)
> >>which is beyond their standard production capabilities = back to
> >hand
> >>processing.. This is one of the reason why large factories like
> >Blackburn
> >>had own facilities for production of all the raw materials/prefabs.
> >>Last year, I had a meeting with people from german company producing
> >
> >>glassworking machines - simple semiautomated machine just for
> >sealing
> >>operation (stem/envelope) which still needs operator starts at
> >$250.000 and
> >>its production capacity is not so high (my estimation was 30
> >tubes/hour).
> >>And this is one of very few pieces of equipment you can purchase,
> >the rest
> >>is necessary to develop - according to your specifications and
> >process
> 

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Instrument Resources of America]

There are a LOT of WANNABE's out there that do NOT have the slightest 
clue as to what is involved in such a venture!!!   Ira.



On 4/21/2017 9:41 AM, chuck richards wrote:

Dalibor,

Thanks again for all that you do.

You obviously have devoted your whole life for the past several
years to the manufacturing of high-quality brand new large nixie
tubes.

There will always be some folks on the side-lines who want to
talk about and to theorize about "better" and "cheaper" methods
of tube production.

Not bloody likely!!

What you have accomplished is most remarkable!

I especially like reading the part where you explain that
computers and automation don't help much.

That is a fact that people who have never tried any production
methods will argue with.  But, as you point out, once one actually
does their experiments and starts learning how to get it done, one
will find that computers and automation just can't cope with the
entire situation very well at all.

Again, congratulations to you and your entire team of dedicated
people!

Chuck





 Original Message 
From: dali...@farny.cz
To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new
nixie tubes
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT)


Hello!

I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of someone

who

spent last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-)

IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so

cheap, even

in 60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8 (equal to

today's

$64) when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no mercury.

Large

tube (B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the nixie

tubes

were cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R

engineers

and whole tube backing industry. They were produced in large

quantities for

lot of equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for

digital

clocks, they were simply expensive for consumer market.
You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly russian

tubes -

their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists willing

to pay

for it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large

volumes in

soviet central planned economy, even when the demand was decreasing

- this

is why there are still full stocks of them in former soviet

countries.

You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont have

much new

technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The

use of

computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new

technologies like

laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction,

jigs..).

There are tens of operations involved in the

assembly/sealing/pumping

procedures - the quantity of machines needed for automated line

would be

big and their price very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few $M would

be

necessary just for the machinery. You would also soon find that

automation

make demands on supplier's tolerances ( e.g. glass thickness,

diameter)

which is beyond their standard production capabilities = back to

hand

processing.. This is one of the reason why large factories like

Blackburn

had own facilities for production of all the raw materials/prefabs.
Last year, I had a meeting with people from german company producing
glassworking machines - simple semiautomated machine just for

sealing

operation (stem/envelope) which still needs operator starts at

$250.000 and

its production capacity is not so high (my estimation was 30

tubes/hour).

And this is one of very few pieces of equipment you can purchase,

the rest

is necessary to develop - according to your specifications and

process

description.

But even if you had a fully equiped factory now, it would take you

long

time to get to working nixie tubes. It is not about machines, but

about the

operator/R - you need to know when the tube is sufficiently

degassed

before filling, what purity of the raw material is necessary, purity

of the

gases, time for aging etc.. Many factors, each of them can make your

tube

prone to failure. Not immediately, but after year of operation for

instance

- your backers will not wait years until you come up with working
combination..

Some data from our business:
- Our price for a tube is now set to $145.
- We make around 130 tubes per month (+ handful of clocks) with

monthly

revenue of around 20.000 USD.
- We are now a team of 5 people and this production volume makes us

really

busy (I work 7 days a week, all day long).
- We need 250 square meters (2700sqft) of space for our current

equipment.

- As for the "butique price" - my monthly net salary is $384, I get

paid

since February 2017 ;-) But my people's salary is above average (for

a

given profession and our region).
- I invested around $80.000 from my personal savings on the

beginning

I know that if I want to really succeed and earn money, I need to

cut down

the production costs. So I am 

[neonixie-l] Re: Trigger Tube Clock

[J Forbes]

Beautiful! This looks like it needs a video on youtube


On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 4:39:51 AM UTC-7, Sgitheach wrote:
>
> Hi All 
>
> Here's two pictures of a nixie/trigger tube clock built by Massimo Capra 
> in Barcelona. Still to have a clear acrylic cover fitted over. 
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Trigger Tube Clock

[David Speck MD]

Grahame,

I'd be interested in a set of the boards myself.

Thanks,

Dave Speck


On 4/21/2017 6:48 PM, 'Grahame' via neonixie-l wrote:



As for the price of a set of PCBs for a clock, it very dependant on 
the number of people showing interest. Counting you, it make just two 
people at the moment so I doubt if the price will be very good.


Grahame


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Re: [neonixie-l] Trigger Tube Clock

[Dylan Distasio]

I would also be interested depending on price.

On Apr 21, 2017 6:48 PM, "'Grahame' via neonixie-l" <
neonixie-l@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I don't believe the Z700U is doped. Its performance in the dark is brought
> about by the priming electrode that keeps a good amount of ionised atoms in
> the device so when the cathode-trigger gap is pulsed it breaks down readily
> and reliably. I've not had any problems with the Z700U in complete darkness
> whereas the XC18 trigger tube I tried to use before that was a doped tube
> and was pretty useless in the dark. It required light to keep operation
> reliable. I did try an experiment with a Z700U with the priming electrode
> unlit and it then didn't trigger reliably in the dark.
>
> As for the price of a set of PCBs for a clock, it very dependant on the
> number of people showing interest. Counting you, it make just two people at
> the moment so I doubt if the price will be very good.
>
> Grahame
>
>
> On 21/04/2017 20:45, Tidak Ada wrote:
>
>> No problems with the half life time of the doping of the ZM800U ? I can
>> remeber somebody here in Netherlands who needed to check the ZM700U tubes
>> in these, before he could make a well working clock.
>>
>> What will those trigger tube prints cost?
>>
>> eric
>>
>> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
>> Van: 'Grahame' via neonixie-l [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com]
>> Verzonden: vrijdag 21 april 2017 13:40
>> Aan: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
>> Onderwerp: [neonixie-l] Trigger Tube Clock
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> Here's two pictures of a nixie/trigger tube clock built by Massimo Capra
>> in Barcelona. Still to have a clear acrylic cover fitted over.
>>
>> Details are here:
>>
>> http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/nixie8.html
>>
>> I have run out of PCBs but could be convinced to get some more
>> manufactured if there was sufficient interest - please PM me and I'll gauge
>> interest. It is unlikely I'll do any kits again. The design uses a custom
>> wound mains transformer that is not hard to have made. The Z700U trigger
>> tubes are available in their thousands from a UK supplier.
>>
>> Note that the Z700U has a priming electrode so it doesn't have problems
>> operating in complete darkness.
>>
>> Enjoy
>>
>> Grahame
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Trigger Tube Clock

['Grahame' via neonixie-l]

Hi,

I don't believe the Z700U is doped. Its performance in the dark is 
brought about by the priming electrode that keeps a good amount of 
ionised atoms in the device so when the cathode-trigger gap is pulsed it 
breaks down readily and reliably. I've not had any problems with the 
Z700U in complete darkness whereas the XC18 trigger tube I tried to use 
before that was a doped tube and was pretty useless in the dark. It 
required light to keep operation reliable. I did try an experiment with 
a Z700U with the priming electrode unlit and it then didn't trigger 
reliably in the dark.


As for the price of a set of PCBs for a clock, it very dependant on the 
number of people showing interest. Counting you, it make just two people 
at the moment so I doubt if the price will be very good.


Grahame


On 21/04/2017 20:45, Tidak Ada wrote:

No problems with the half life time of the doping of the ZM800U ? I can remeber 
somebody here in Netherlands who needed to check the ZM700U tubes in these, 
before he could make a well working clock.

What will those trigger tube prints cost?

eric

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: 'Grahame' via neonixie-l [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 21 april 2017 13:40
Aan: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: [neonixie-l] Trigger Tube Clock

Hi All

Here's two pictures of a nixie/trigger tube clock built by Massimo Capra in 
Barcelona. Still to have a clear acrylic cover fitted over.

Details are here:

http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/nixie8.html

I have run out of PCBs but could be convinced to get some more manufactured if 
there was sufficient interest - please PM me and I'll gauge interest. It is 
unlikely I'll do any kits again. The design uses a custom wound mains 
transformer that is not hard to have made. The Z700U trigger tubes are 
available in their thousands from a UK supplier.

Note that the Z700U has a priming electrode so it doesn't have problems 
operating in complete darkness.

Enjoy

Grahame


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RE: [neonixie-l] Trigger Tube Clock

[Tidak Ada]

No problems with the half life time of the doping of the ZM800U ? I can remeber 
somebody here in Netherlands who needed to check the ZM700U tubes in these, 
before he could make a well working clock.

What will those trigger tube prints cost?

eric

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: 'Grahame' via neonixie-l [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] 
Verzonden: vrijdag 21 april 2017 13:40
Aan: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: [neonixie-l] Trigger Tube Clock

Hi All

Here's two pictures of a nixie/trigger tube clock built by Massimo Capra in 
Barcelona. Still to have a clear acrylic cover fitted over.

Details are here:

http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/nixie8.html

I have run out of PCBs but could be convinced to get some more manufactured if 
there was sufficient interest - please PM me and I'll gauge interest. It is 
unlikely I'll do any kits again. The design uses a custom wound mains 
transformer that is not hard to have made. The Z700U trigger tubes are 
available in their thousands from a UK supplier.

Note that the Z700U has a priming electrode so it doesn't have problems 
operating in complete darkness.

Enjoy

Grahame


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RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[chuck richards]

Dalibor,

Thanks again for all that you do.

You obviously have devoted your whole life for the past several
years to the manufacturing of high-quality brand new large nixie
tubes.

There will always be some folks on the side-lines who want to
talk about and to theorize about "better" and "cheaper" methods
of tube production.

Not bloody likely!!

What you have accomplished is most remarkable!

I especially like reading the part where you explain that
computers and automation don't help much.

That is a fact that people who have never tried any production
methods will argue with.  But, as you point out, once one actually
does their experiments and starts learning how to get it done, one
will find that computers and automation just can't cope with the
entire situation very well at all.

Again, congratulations to you and your entire team of dedicated
people!

Chuck



>
>
> Original Message 
>From: dali...@farny.cz
>To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
>Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new
>nixie tubes
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
>
>>Hello!
>>
>>I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of someone
>who 
>>spent last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-)
>>
>>IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so
>cheap, even 
>>in 60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8 (equal to
>today's 
>>$64) when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no mercury.
>Large 
>>tube (B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the nixie
>tubes 
>>were cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R
>engineers 
>>and whole tube backing industry. They were produced in large
>quantities for 
>>lot of equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for
>digital 
>>clocks, they were simply expensive for consumer market.
>>You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly russian
>tubes - 
>>their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists willing
>to pay 
>>for it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large
>volumes in 
>>soviet central planned economy, even when the demand was decreasing
>- this 
>>is why there are still full stocks of them in former soviet
>countries.
>>
>>You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont have
>much new 
>>technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The
>use of 
>>computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new
>technologies like 
>>laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction,
>jigs..). 
>>There are tens of operations involved in the
>assembly/sealing/pumping 
>>procedures - the quantity of machines needed for automated line
>would be 
>>big and their price very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few $M would
>be 
>>necessary just for the machinery. You would also soon find that
>automation 
>>make demands on supplier's tolerances ( e.g. glass thickness,
>diameter) 
>>which is beyond their standard production capabilities = back to
>hand 
>>processing.. This is one of the reason why large factories like
>Blackburn 
>>had own facilities for production of all the raw materials/prefabs.
>>Last year, I had a meeting with people from german company producing
>
>>glassworking machines - simple semiautomated machine just for
>sealing 
>>operation (stem/envelope) which still needs operator starts at
>$250.000 and 
>>its production capacity is not so high (my estimation was 30
>tubes/hour). 
>>And this is one of very few pieces of equipment you can purchase,
>the rest 
>>is necessary to develop - according to your specifications and
>process 
>>description.
>>
>>But even if you had a fully equiped factory now, it would take you
>long 
>>time to get to working nixie tubes. It is not about machines, but
>about the 
>>operator/R - you need to know when the tube is sufficiently
>degassed 
>>before filling, what purity of the raw material is necessary, purity
>of the 
>>gases, time for aging etc.. Many factors, each of them can make your
>tube 
>>prone to failure. Not immediately, but after year of operation for
>instance 
>>- your backers will not wait years until you come up with working 
>>combination..
>>
>>Some data from our business:
>>- Our price for a tube is now set to $145.
>>- We make around 130 tubes per month (+ handful of clocks) with
>monthly 
>>revenue of around 20.000 USD.
>>- We are now a team of 5 people and this production volume makes us
>really 
>>busy (I work 7 days a week, all day long).
>>- We need 250 square meters (2700sqft) of space for our current
>equipment.
>>- As for the "butique price" - my monthly net salary is $384, I get
>paid 
>>since February 2017 ;-) But my people's salary is above average (for
>a 
>>given profession and our region).
>>- I invested around $80.000 from my personal savings on the
>beginning
>>
>>I know that if I want to really succeed and earn money, I need to
>cut down 
>>the production costs. So I am step by step making our manufacture

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[JohnK]

Yep, wonderful stuff and I was aware of it.  By Dalibor's work I meant more 
than the production -sorry, me being language-lazy. The tantalizing stills 
at the start and of the move to the castle are more the thing I meant. A 
complete "life of..." I guess :-))   The everyday things that don't get 
recorded but are treasured later [and not just for their rarity].
It brings to mind bugs in an archaeology show we are getting at present. It 
often uses "dig cam", that is the self filming by the teams. The vid is 
fine, the audio is often atrocious. Seems they don't know about muffling 
wind noise  :-( What a missed opportunity!


John K



- Original Message - 
From: "Malcolm Miles" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 9:22 PM
Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie 
tubes





I know that there have been video snippets of Dalibor's work,
but it warrants a full documentary.


The Art of Making a Nixie Tube
37 minutes of sheer amazement at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxL4ElboiuA

--
Best wishes,
Malcolm

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RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Malcolm Miles]

> I know that there have been video snippets of Dalibor's work, 
> but it warrants a full documentary. 

The Art of Making a Nixie Tube
37 minutes of sheer amazement at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxL4ElboiuA

-- 
Best wishes,
Malcolm

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