Re: [nfc-l] Dual-Polar Radar coming 2011-2012

[Colby Neuman]

Bryan,

You're information sounds good to me.  The Spokane, WA office is
planning on upgrading August/September 2011 for what it's worth.  I
wouldn't be surprised if the upgrades are pushed back though.

Colby

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Bryan Guarente  wrote:
> David, Andy, and other interested parties,
> According to some Technical Information Notices put out by the National
> Weather Service (NWS), the beta test for live data starts on November 17th.
> I haven't heard recently, but I thought the test bed was going to be
> Wichita, KS.  Plans may have changed since I last heard.  [Colby any word on
> this one?]  The Norman, OK radar is a research radar, and usually isn't
> available for regular viewing that I know of.  There are other dual-pol
> radars, multiple on trucks (used during Vortex 2) and a few that are
> portable, but not really mobile.  The Norman radar has been the go-to for
> dual-pol radars for some time in the U.S., but that will not likely turn
> over to be operational any time.  When the NWS upgrade to all the radars
> comes along, then most of the nation should be covered with this data.
> There are other radars (phased array) on the horizon that might be useful
> for bird detection as well, but I don't know enough about them yet to make
> any solid statements.
>
> I wanted to make a quick clarification about David's original posting.
> David mentioned that the radars will be able to get the drop-size
> distributions from their scans, but this is not exactly true.  The drop-size
> distributions may be inferred from the radar imagery, but this will be a
> poor assumption initially until we learn more about storms from this new
> source.  One of the things, we will get is actually hydrometeor
> characterization (precipitation type) from the radar scans.  However, the
> algorithm to identify the hydrometeors is not perfect, so there will be some
> issues.  According to the algorithm though, there is a distinct type/color
> for non-meteorological targets (i.e., birds, insects, and I think dust as
> well).  So it would be significantly easier to pick out possible birds on
> radar once these are in place, if we get access to this product.
>
> Bryan Guarente
> Instructional Designer
> The COMET Program
> University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
> Boulder, CO
>

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Re: [nfc-l] Dual-Polar Radar coming 2011-2012

[david nicosia]

Thanks Bryan for more details on this. I recently saw a presentation on 
Dual-polarization and
that is where I gleaned the information. I don't have the in-depth knowledge 
that you do. 

Our office (WFO Binghamton) is getting the dual-pole upgrade in June 2011. I 
know
we are near the top of the list but there will be others coming on-line before 
us. You are
correct that Norman is a research radar. I don't know if that data is available 
or
not for study before they deploy the others. 
 take care. 





From: Bryan Guarente 
To: nfc-l@cornell.edu
Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 4:45:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nfc-l] Dual-Polar Radar coming 2011-2012


David, Andy, and other interested parties,
According to some Technical Information Notices put out by the National Weather 
Service (NWS), the beta test for live data starts on November 17th.  I haven't 
heard recently, but I thought the test bed was going to be Wichita, KS.  Plans 
may have changed since I last heard.  [Colby any word on this one?]  The 
Norman, 
OK radar is a research radar, and usually isn't available for regular viewing 
that I know of.  There are other dual-pol radars, multiple on trucks (used 
during Vortex 2) and a few that are portable, but not really mobile.  The 
Norman 
radar has been the go-to for dual-pol radars for some time in the U.S., but 
that 
will not likely turn over to be operational any time.  When the NWS upgrade to 
all the radars comes along, then most of the nation should be covered with this 
data.  There are other radars (phased array) on the horizon that might be 
useful 
for bird detection as well, but I don't know enough about them yet to make any 
solid statements.  


I wanted to make a quick clarification about David's original posting.  David 
mentioned that the radars will be able to get the drop-size distributions from 
their scans, but this is not exactly true.  The drop-size distributions may be 
inferred from the radar imagery, but this will be a poor assumption initially 
until we learn more about storms from this new source.  One of the things, we 
will get is actually hydrometeor characterization (precipitation type) from the 
radar scans.  However, the algorithm to identify the hydrometeors is not 
perfect, so there will be some issues.  According to the algorithm though, 
there 
is a distinct type/color for non-meteorological targets (i.e., birds, insects, 
and I think dust as well).  So it would be significantly easier to pick out 
possible birds on radar once these are in place, if we get access to this 
product.

Bryan Guarente
Instructional Designer
The COMET Program
University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
Boulder, CO



  
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Re: [nfc-l] Dual-Polar Radar coming 2011-2012

[Bryan Guarente]

David, Andy, and other interested parties,
According to some Technical Information Notices put out by the National Weather 
Service (NWS), the beta test for live data starts on November 17th.  I haven't 
heard recently, but I thought the test bed was going to be Wichita, KS.  Plans 
may have changed since I last heard.  [Colby any word on this one?]  The 
Norman, 
OK radar is a research radar, and usually isn't available for regular viewing 
that I know of.  There are other dual-pol radars, multiple on trucks (used 
during Vortex 2) and a few that are portable, but not really mobile.  The 
Norman 
radar has been the go-to for dual-pol radars for some time in the U.S., but 
that 
will not likely turn over to be operational any time.  When the NWS upgrade to 
all the radars comes along, then most of the nation should be covered with this 
data.  There are other radars (phased array) on the horizon that might be 
useful 
for bird detection as well, but I don't know enough about them yet to make any 
solid statements.  


I wanted to make a quick clarification about David's original posting.  David 
mentioned that the radars will be able to get the drop-size distributions from 
their scans, but this is not exactly true.  The drop-size distributions may be 
inferred from the radar imagery, but this will be a poor assumption initially 
until we learn more about storms from this new source.  One of the things, we 
will get is actually hydrometeor characterization (precipitation type) from the 
radar scans.  However, the algorithm to identify the hydrometeors is not 
perfect, so there will be some issues.  According to the algorithm though, 
there 
is a distinct type/color for non-meteorological targets (i.e., birds, insects, 
and I think dust as well).  So it would be significantly easier to pick out 
possible birds on radar once these are in place, if we get access to this 
product.

 Bryan Guarente
Instructional Designer
The COMET Program
University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
Boulder, CO


  
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Re: [nfc-l] Dual-Polar Radar coming 2011-2012

[david nicosia]

I know they have a test radar at Norman, OK but I don't believe the data is
operational or available. When I get some time( probably next
week) I am going to find out more on the availability of the data and will share
with this list. 

Dave Nicosia 





From: Andy Martin 
To: david nicosia ; nfc-l@cornell.edu
Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 11:30:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nfc-l] Dual-Polar Radar coming 2011-2012

Dave,

Are there any polarimetric radar stations (a beta site) with a web link up and 
running at the moment that we might view in coming weeks as fall migration 
starts to intensify?

Thanks,

Andy Martin
Gaithersburg, MD

On 7/6/2010 10:26 AM, david nicosia wrote: 
All, 
>
>The next two years will see all NWS radars equipped with
>dual polarization which essentially adds a vertically oriented pulse
>to the horizontal oriented pulse of energy. There will be a 
>slew of new radar products to learn and interpret. 
>
>The advantages of dual polar are that meteorologists will
>be able to better determine precipitation types, drop-sized
>distributions of raindrops and mixed precipitation. It also
>will determine non-meteorological targets better (birds!!). 
>
>There are interesting radar products like differential phase,
>which helps us with rainfall drop-sized distributions. I wonder
>if this new technology will help determine the size of migrating
>birds? Will a flock of geese appear different than
>songbirds? This could be an exciting time for "radar" birding. 
>
>For more information on this
>check out this website
>
>http://www.cimms.ou.edu/%7Eschuur/radar.html
>
>Dave Nicosia
>Johnson City, NY 
>
>
>



  
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Re: [nfc-l] Dual-Polar Radar coming 2011-2012

[Andy Martin]

Dave,

Are there any polarimetric radar stations (a beta site) with a web link 
up and running at the moment that we might view in coming weeks as fall 
migration starts to intensify?

Thanks,

Andy Martin
Gaithersburg, MD

On 7/6/2010 10:26 AM, david nicosia wrote:
> All,
> The next two years will see all NWS radars equipped with
> dual polarization which essentially adds a vertically oriented pulse
> to the horizontal oriented pulse of energy. There will be a
> slew of new radar products to learn and interpret.
> The advantages of dual polar are that meteorologists will
> be able to better determine precipitation types, drop-sized
> distributions of raindrops and mixed precipitation. It also
> will determine non-meteorological targets better (birds!!).
> There are interesting radar products like differential phase,
> which helps us with rainfall drop-sized distributions. I wonder
> if this new technology will help determine the size of migrating
> birds? Will a flock of geese appear different than
> songbirds? This could be an exciting time for "radar" birding.
> For more information on this
> check out this website
> http://www.cimms.ou.edu/~schuur/radar.html 
> 
> Dave Nicosia
> Johnson City, NY
>


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