Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Pjotr Prins]

On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 07:15:01PM +0200, Bjørn Forsman wrote:
> On 5 October 2015 at 18:20, Eelco Dolstra  wrote:
> > IIRC, Nix can't be included in the Debian repo because it violates the FHS 
> > (by
> > creating a non-standard directory, /nix).
> 
> Maybe we can move /nix to some FHS compatible sub-directory? Possibly
> /opt/nix? (Only partly joking...)

Chances of Nix going into Debian are fairly slim. After all these
years they had ample time to consider it and I am sure they did ;).

Maybe GNU Guix will pave the way - being a GNU project it is harder to
ignore.

Pj.
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Roland Koebler]

Hi,

+1 for 1) -> add postinst to the Debian-Package
plus: clean up the documentation (see below)


I'm an experienced Linux user (and programmer) but new to Nix, and since
I like the concept of Nix and NixOS, I wanted to try Nix on Debian:

So, I first downloaded the Debian-package from
https://hydra.nixos.org/release/nix/nix-1.10 and installed it with
dpkg -- and then found that this does not work because of missing
dependencies.

I then manually installed the missing dependencies; but unfortunately,
Nix still did not work, because /nix did not exist.

I then found https://nixos.org/wiki/Installing_Nix_on_Debian and
https://nixos.org/nix/manual/#ch-installing-binary -- and didn't
know why there are two different manuals for the same purpose, and
didn't know which one I should follow or whether one is up-to-date
and the other one is outdated.

I ended up removing the Debian-package again, and then used
https://nixos.org/nix/install instead.


So, installing Nix is much more complicated than it would have to
be. This should be improved by:

1. Fix the manual:
   The instructions on https://nixos.org/nix/manual/#ch-installing-binary
   are incomplete: It says that I can use the install-scipt and 
   mkdir+chown /nix -- or that I can install a binary package.
   But then, I still have to create+chown /nix, so

 $ dpkg -i nix_1.8-1_amd64.deb

   -> 

 $ dpkg -i nix_1.8-1_amd64.deb
 $ mkdir /nix
 $ chown alice /nix

   (The same is probably valid for the rpm-version)

2. Single-User vs. Multi-User-Mode:
   Being new to Nix, I first didn't know what "Multi-User-Mode" meant,
   and whether I should install Nix in Single-User or Multi-User-Mode.
   A better explaination in chapter 1 of the manual would be great.
   (Single-User-Mode: only 1 user can install/remove packages; this can
   be root or some other user. Multi-User-Mode: every user can install/
   remove packages for himself.)

3. One Manual instead of two:
   https://nixos.org/wiki/Installing_Nix_on_Debian and
   https://nixos.org/nix/manual/#ch-installing-binary
   should be unified, so that it's clear which one should be used.

   In addition, I think it's strange that the "/etc/init.d/nix-daemon"-
   script is not included in nix, but should be copy-and-pasted from
   the wiki-page.

4. Links on download-pages:
   Add a link from the download-page 
https://hydra.nixos.org/release/nix/nix-1.10
   to the install-instructions.

5. Install-scripts in packages:
   Add postinstall-scripts to the packages.
   For Debian, the ideal solution would be to add a postinst-script,
   which asks if Nix should be used in single- or multi-user mode,
   who should own /nix, and maybe who should be added to the nixbld-
   group. (And maybe to add Nix to the official Debian-repository.)


Best regards
Roland


PS: I have not yet tried NixOS, but Nix itself seems to be quite powerful
and useful in other Linux-distributions: It looks to be the easiest
way to (a) install newer versions of some software in e.g. Debian stable,
(b) install software without root-priviledges and (c) package software
in a distribution-independent manner.
So, I think Nix itself would be quite useful for many Debian users,
if they would know about it, and if Nix would be advertised for these
purposes.


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:35:01AM +0100, Thomas Hunger wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Slight ramble ahead.
> 
> I've managed to get several people to try Nix after constantly raving about
> it and all but one had a bad experience. The reason AFAICT is that they
> first check for nix in their default package tool (apt-get, pacman, ...).
> These packages install nix-*  binaries but they don't help with the single
> or multi-user /nix setup. So the first thing they see is "error: creating
> directory ?/nix?: Permission denied".
> 
> I can think of two solutions 1) make the packages set up nix correctly so
> nix-env is usable out of the box and 2) Remove all custom packages and tell
> people to use the installer script.
> 
> I know 2 is quite radical but to me it seems preferable to leaving people
> who aren't necessarily great unix admins googling for an error with no
> solution on the first results page.
> 
> ~
> 
> 
> [1]
> https://nixos.org/wiki/Installing_Nix_on_Debian
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://lists.science.uu.nl/pipermail/nix-dev/attachments/20150922/d495b933/attachment.html
>  
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Bjørn Forsman]

On 5 October 2015 at 18:20, Eelco Dolstra  wrote:
> IIRC, Nix can't be included in the Debian repo because it violates the FHS (by
> creating a non-standard directory, /nix).

Maybe we can move /nix to some FHS compatible sub-directory? Possibly
/opt/nix? (Only partly joking...)

- Bjørn
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Eelco Dolstra]

Hi,

On 05/10/15 16:08, Roland Koebler wrote:

> I then found https://nixos.org/wiki/Installing_Nix_on_Debian and
> https://nixos.org/nix/manual/#ch-installing-binary -- and didn't
> know why there are two different manuals for the same purpose, and
> didn't know which one I should follow or whether one is up-to-date
> and the other one is outdated.

There is only one Nix manual. The wiki is not an authoritative source - being a
wiki, anybody can edit it, so anybody can add information that duplicates (or
contradicts) the manual. Which is not to say the manual is always up to date :-)

>In addition, I think it's strange that the "/etc/init.d/nix-daemon"-
>script is not included in nix, but should be copy-and-pasted from
>the wiki-page.

AFAIK nobody has created a PR to have it included.

> 5. Install-scripts in packages:
>Add postinstall-scripts to the packages.
>For Debian, the ideal solution would be to add a postinst-script,
>which asks if Nix should be used in single- or multi-user mode,
>who should own /nix, and maybe who should be added to the nixbld-
>group. (And maybe to add Nix to the official Debian-repository.)

IIRC, Nix can't be included in the Debian repo because it violates the FHS (by
creating a non-standard directory, /nix).

-- 
Eelco Dolstra | LogicBlox, Inc. | http://nixos.org/~eelco/
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Alastair Pharo]

Hi,OK I'll see if I can do anything about nix.sh.Yes I too am experiencing the locale problem. I'm using LANG=C to get around it for the time-being. It wasn't a problem till recently so I figured it was an Arch issue -- I didn't see the issue you referenced till just now, but I did see that some people on the Archlinux forums were complaining about the same locale problems with other binaries [1]. I haven't tried but from that info it's possible that installing the [testing] glibc on arch will solve the issue.Cheers,Alastair[1]: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=200845Thomas Hunger escribió:Hi Alaistair,Thanks for doing that change! We've tried your package on a fresh install and it doesn't add the channel or `$HOME/.nix-profile/etc/profile.d/nix.sh`. After we've added those manually we ran into the locale bug in [1]. Are you getting that bug as well? And if so, did you manage to work around that?~[1]https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/599On 23 September 2015 at 10:15, Alastair Pharo  wrote:Hi Thomas,

I’m the author of this script by the way.  I didn’t say that before.

The bulk of the work that it does is in the install file which is not
easy to view from the AUR website, so I’m not sure if you saw it.
Here is a link to it in the git repo viewer.  It’s still a very
simple script; it’s mostly just doing what is described on the wiki for
Debian:


  create users
  make a skeleton /nix folder
  display a message telling the user how to enable the daemon.


It wasn’t doing (2) properly until a few minutes ago; previously it was
failing if /nix/store didn’t exist.  As you will see, the installer is
basically just a shell script that gets run as root when the package is
installed, so if there is a more official version of this process, it
would probably be quite easy to include it there.

Cheers,

Alastair

On 23 September 2015 18:02, Thomas Hunger wrote:


  Alastair,

Looking at [1] it looks like the only thing that package does is setting an
env variable - how did you get your /nix tree started? Maybe we could
extend nix-multiuser to execute your /nix steps on start?




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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Joachim Schiele]

i couldn't have found better words! this is so true and basically the
idea which drives nix in the first place.

On 23.09.2015 10:20, Adrien Devresse wrote:
> An other point to consider is the integration aspect.
> 
> Nix requires a system install in a shared environment. The daemon needs
> to be setup properly, group created, etc
> In most companies, the sysadmin will simply refuse to install on any
> existing  shared system anything which is not packaged properly, and for
> very good reasons.
> 
> Not providing platform specific packages will very likely slow down the
> adoption of Nix in professional environment for such reasons.
> I agree the platform specific packages have their own issues, but from
> an administration point of view, they are needed.
> 
> 
> Adrien
> 
> 
> 
> Le 23/09/2015 00:50, Thomas Hunger a écrit :
>> The deb can be inspected with "dpkg -c". It contains all the nix-*
>> commands, man pages, some perl, headers and some basic nix library
>> functions. What's missing is a postinst script that setting up the
>> things according to [1] (probably needs updating).
>>
>> On reflection platform specific packages would be useful to work
>> around issues like [2] which one of my friends hit today. And as
>> Vladimir says for the multi-user setup with the daemon. I'm not sure I
>> have the energy to go around and fix all the packages but maybe debian
>> and arch would be a good start.
>>
>> ~
>>
>> [1]
>> https://nixos.org/wiki/Installing_Nix_on_Debian
>>
>> [2]
>> https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/599
>>
>>
>> On 22 September 2015 at 22:31, Vladimír Čunát > > wrote:
>>
>> On 09/22/2015 10:03 PM, zimbatm wrote:
>> > On the other end, it would be nice if installing nix was just a
>> > matter of running `curl -L
>> > https://nixos.org/nix-current/$(uname)-$(arch).tar.bz2
>>  |
>> tar xa -C
>> > /nix && ln -s /nix/bin/nix-env /usr/local/bin` and then setup the
>> > profile.
>>
>> I think the nix daemon complicates things a bit, as you need to
>> plug it
>> into the host OS services.
>>
>> Vladimir
>>
>>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Thomas Hunger]

Hi Alaistair,

Thanks for doing that change! We've tried your package on a fresh install
and it doesn't add the channel or
`$HOME/.nix-profile/etc/profile.d/nix.sh`. After we've added those manually
we ran into the locale bug in [1]. Are you getting that bug as well? And if
so, did you manage to work around that?

~

[1]
https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/599

On 23 September 2015 at 10:15, Alastair Pharo  wrote:

> Hi Thomas,
>
> I’m the author of this script by the way. I didn’t say that before.
>
> The bulk of the work that it does is in the install file which is not easy
> to view from the AUR website, so I’m not sure if you saw it. Here
> 
> is a link to it in the git repo viewer. It’s still a very simple script;
> it’s mostly just doing what is described on the wiki for Debian:
>
>1. create users
>2. make a skeleton /nix folder
>3. display a message telling the user how to enable the daemon.
>
> It wasn’t doing (2) properly until a few minutes ago; previously it was
> failing if /nix/store didn’t exist. As you will see, the installer is
> basically just a shell script that gets run as root when the package is
> installed, so if there is a more official version of this process, it would
> probably be quite easy to include it there.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alastair
>
> On 23 September 2015 18:02, Thomas Hunger wrote:
>
> Alastair,
>
> Looking at [1] it looks like the only thing that package does is setting an
> env variable - how did you get your /nix tree started? Maybe we could
> extend nix-multiuser to execute your /nix steps on start?
>
>
>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Alastair Pharo]

Hi Thomas,

I'm the author of this script by the way.  I didn't say that before.

The bulk of the work that it does is in the install file which is not
easy to view from the AUR website, so I'm not sure if you saw it.
[Here][1] is a link to it in the git repo viewer.  It's still a very
simple script; it's mostly just doing what is described on the wiki for
Debian:

1. create users
2. make a skeleton /nix folder
3. display a message telling the user how to enable the daemon.

It wasn't doing (2) properly until a few minutes ago; previously it was
failing if `/nix/store` didn't exist.  As you will see, the installer is
basically just a shell script that gets run as root when the package is
installed, so if there is a more official version of this process, it
would probably be quite easy to include it there.

Cheers,

Alastair

[1]: 
https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/nix-multiuser.install?h=nix-multiuser

On 23 September 2015 18:02, Thomas Hunger wrote:

> Alastair,
>
> Looking at [1] it looks like the only thing that package does is setting an
> env variable - how did you get your /nix tree started? Maybe we could
> extend nix-multiuser to execute your /nix steps on start?
>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Thomas Hunger]

Alastair,

Looking at [1] it looks like the only thing that package does is setting an
env variable - how did you get your /nix tree started? Maybe we could
extend nix-multiuser to execute your /nix steps on start?

~

[1]
https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/PKGBUILD?h=nix-multiuser

On 23 September 2015 at 01:10, Alastair Pharo  wrote:

> Just thought I’d point out that on Arch Linux we have the nix-multiuser
> package  that pretty
> much takes care of the multiuser setup.
>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Adrien Devresse]

An other point to consider is the integration aspect.

Nix requires a system install in a shared environment. The daemon needs
to be setup properly, group created, etc
In most companies, the sysadmin will simply refuse to install on any
existing  shared system anything which is not packaged properly, and for
very good reasons.

Not providing platform specific packages will very likely slow down the
adoption of Nix in professional environment for such reasons.
I agree the platform specific packages have their own issues, but from
an administration point of view, they are needed.


Adrien



Le 23/09/2015 00:50, Thomas Hunger a écrit :
> The deb can be inspected with "dpkg -c". It contains all the nix-*
> commands, man pages, some perl, headers and some basic nix library
> functions. What's missing is a postinst script that setting up the
> things according to [1] (probably needs updating).
>
> On reflection platform specific packages would be useful to work
> around issues like [2] which one of my friends hit today. And as
> Vladimir says for the multi-user setup with the daemon. I'm not sure I
> have the energy to go around and fix all the packages but maybe debian
> and arch would be a good start.
>
> ~
>
> [1]
> https://nixos.org/wiki/Installing_Nix_on_Debian
>
> [2]
> https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/599
>
>
> On 22 September 2015 at 22:31, Vladimír Čunát  > wrote:
>
> On 09/22/2015 10:03 PM, zimbatm wrote:
> > On the other end, it would be nice if installing nix was just a
> > matter of running `curl -L
> > https://nixos.org/nix-current/$(uname)-$(arch).tar.bz2
>  |
> tar xa -C
> > /nix && ln -s /nix/bin/nix-env /usr/local/bin` and then setup the
> > profile.
>
> I think the nix daemon complicates things a bit, as you need to
> plug it
> into the host OS services.
>
> Vladimir
>
>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[zimbatm]

What does the deb exactly contain and take care of ?
I'm not sure of the boundary between the system package manager and nix.
For example once nix is installed I would expect the `nix` binary to be
managed by it, but if it's provided by the system package as well then it's
possible to have two versions installed. This in turn might leads to
confused users who just upgraded `nix` but are still having the old version.

On the other end, it would be nice if installing nix was just a matter of
running `curl -L https://nixos.org/nix-current/$(uname)-$(arch).tar.bz2 |
tar xa -C /nix && ln -s /nix/bin/nix-env /usr/local/bin` and then setup the
profile. But then making this cross-platform is going to be a challenge.


On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 at 18:42 Hajo Möller  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 09/22/2015 11:35 AM, Thomas Hunger wrote:
> > I can think of two solutions 1) make the packages set up nix correctly
> > so nix-env is usable out of the box and 2) Remove all custom packages
> > and tell people to use the installer script.
>
> I'm strongly against 2), as I don't think curl-ing into sh is a good
> idea at all. There was a HN discussion about (not) doing it two years
> ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6650987
>
> A more recent example comes from chef's blog:
>
> https://www.chef.io/blog/2015/07/16/5-ways-to-deal-with-the-install-sh-curl-pipe-bash-problem/
>
> Please at least print the script before executing it, pipe it through
> moreutil's vipe? vipe may not be available and requires perl, so that's
> not good, either...
>
> While I haven't looked at the .deb packages so far, there may be a way
> to have launchpad build the .debs and provide a PPA.
> I saw Eelco Dolstra maintains the .debs, thanks for that! When I needed
> nix to look at how the manual gets built, I just grabbed a .deb.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Hajo Möller
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Hajo Möller]

Hi,

On 09/22/2015 11:35 AM, Thomas Hunger wrote:
> I can think of two solutions 1) make the packages set up nix correctly
> so nix-env is usable out of the box and 2) Remove all custom packages
> and tell people to use the installer script.

I'm strongly against 2), as I don't think curl-ing into sh is a good
idea at all. There was a HN discussion about (not) doing it two years
ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6650987

A more recent example comes from chef's blog:
https://www.chef.io/blog/2015/07/16/5-ways-to-deal-with-the-install-sh-curl-pipe-bash-problem/

Please at least print the script before executing it, pipe it through
moreutil's vipe? vipe may not be available and requires perl, so that's
not good, either...

While I haven't looked at the .deb packages so far, there may be a way
to have launchpad build the .debs and provide a PPA.
I saw Eelco Dolstra maintains the .debs, thanks for that! When I needed
nix to look at how the manual gets built, I just grabbed a .deb.

-- 
Regards,
Hajo Möller
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Thomas Hunger]

The deb can be inspected with "dpkg -c". It contains all the nix-*
commands, man pages, some perl, headers and some basic nix library
functions. What's missing is a postinst script that setting up the things
according to [1] (probably needs updating).

On reflection platform specific packages would be useful to work around
issues like [2] which one of my friends hit today. And as Vladimir says for
the multi-user setup with the daemon. I'm not sure I have the energy to go
around and fix all the packages but maybe debian and arch would be a good
start.

~

[1]
https://nixos.org/wiki/Installing_Nix_on_Debian

[2]
https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/599


On 22 September 2015 at 22:31, Vladimír Čunát  wrote:

> On 09/22/2015 10:03 PM, zimbatm wrote:
> > On the other end, it would be nice if installing nix was just a
> > matter of running `curl -L
> > https://nixos.org/nix-current/$(uname)-$(arch).tar.bz2 | tar xa -C
> > /nix && ln -s /nix/bin/nix-env /usr/local/bin` and then setup the
> > profile.
>
> I think the nix daemon complicates things a bit, as you need to plug it
> into the host OS services.
>
> Vladimir
>
>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Alastair Pharo]

Just thought I'd point out that on Arch Linux we have the [nix-multiuser
package][1] that pretty much takes care of the multiuser setup.

[1]: https://aur4.archlinux.org/packages/nix-multiuser/
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[Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Thomas Hunger]

Hi,

Slight ramble ahead.

I've managed to get several people to try Nix after constantly raving about
it and all but one had a bad experience. The reason AFAICT is that they
first check for nix in their default package tool (apt-get, pacman, ...).
These packages install nix-*  binaries but they don't help with the single
or multi-user /nix setup. So the first thing they see is "error: creating
directory ‘/nix’: Permission denied".

I can think of two solutions 1) make the packages set up nix correctly so
nix-env is usable out of the box and 2) Remove all custom packages and tell
people to use the installer script.

I know 2 is quite radical but to me it seems preferable to leaving people
who aren't necessarily great unix admins googling for an error with no
solution on the first results page.

~


[1]
https://nixos.org/wiki/Installing_Nix_on_Debian
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Eelco Dolstra]

Hi,

On 22/09/15 11:35, Thomas Hunger wrote:

> I can think of two solutions 1) make the packages set up nix correctly so
> nix-env is usable out of the box and 2) Remove all custom packages and tell
> people to use the installer script.

+1 on option 2.

-- 
Eelco Dolstra | LogicBlox, Inc. | http://nixos.org/~eelco/
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Re: [Nix-dev] Providing Debian, Arch etc. packages counterproductive?

[Jookia]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 11:37:58AM +0200, Eelco Dolstra wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 22/09/15 11:35, Thomas Hunger wrote:
> 
> > I can think of two solutions 1) make the packages set up nix correctly so
> > nix-env is usable out of the box and 2) Remove all custom packages and tell
> > people to use the installer script.
> 
> +1 on option 2.

Why not both? Have the packages run the installer script.
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