another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[David Edmondson]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:12:16 -0800, Jameson Graef Rollins  wrote:
> In fact, I'm now starting to think we don't need to add any support
> for special tagging operations (such as "deleted") even if we *do*
> have support for suppressing them in the CLI.  Special tagging
> operations should only be supported if the tagged messages are somehow
> handled specially.  If not, then again, we should just leave them up
> to the user [0].

Agreed.

The more interesting patch is the one that maps from the 'deleted' tag
to the 'T' bit, at least as someone who is mostly maildir-ignorant it
seems that way.

The keybindings are easy for a user to play with. The behaviour of the
core library much less so.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 197 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Jani Nikula]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:12:16 -0800, Jameson Graef Rollins  wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:01:32 -0400, David Bremner  
> wrote:
> > Just thinking out loud here, but it does seem a bit unfortunate to me
> > that it represents a pretty fundamental divergence between the CLI and
> > the emacs interface. Mind you, I guess one could make the same argument
> > about the libs versus the CLI. Lack of configuration information in the
> > library (possibly among other reasons) makes this not too nice to
> > support in the current library either.
> 
> I think a consensus has formed that this functionality (automatically
> suppressing messages with certain tags from searches) is better left to
> the CLI, rather than implementing it just in the emacs UI.
> Unfortunately I'm not going to get to that any time soon.

I could have a go at it, but I can't make any promises about getting to
that any time soon either. So what if emacs ui goes head first and does
something that should be done in the CLI in a perfect world? If it's
added properly, it can be taken out if/when this pops up in the CLI.

Also, there already *is* filtering for "all tags" list. See
notmuch-hello-tag-list-make-query. How about having something like that
for saved searches? I know it's not the same as your original, but it's
middle ground...

> However, without that functionality, I really see no reason why we
> should be adding any built-in support for adding "deleted" tags in the
> emacs UI.  Without the CLI change, "deleted" tags aren't handled any
> differently than any other tag, so why should the default emacs UI care.
> If users want to bind keys to special tagging operations, they can do so
> for themselves [0].

In fact, "deleted" used to be special, but that was, err, deleted
because it had problems: 2c262042ac174d7bc96d6035ab9c88bd0abe7f35. If
that ever gets fixed, "deleted" would be special again.


BR,
Jani.

another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Austin Clements]

Quoth Jani Nikula on Jan 11 at  7:16 am:
> On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:12:16 -0800, Jameson Graef Rollins  finestructure.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:01:32 -0400, David Bremner  
> > wrote:
> > > Just thinking out loud here, but it does seem a bit unfortunate to me
> > > that it represents a pretty fundamental divergence between the CLI and
> > > the emacs interface. Mind you, I guess one could make the same argument
> > > about the libs versus the CLI. Lack of configuration information in the
> > > library (possibly among other reasons) makes this not too nice to
> > > support in the current library either.
> > 
> > I think a consensus has formed that this functionality (automatically
> > suppressing messages with certain tags from searches) is better left to
> > the CLI, rather than implementing it just in the emacs UI.
> > Unfortunately I'm not going to get to that any time soon.
> 
> I could have a go at it, but I can't make any promises about getting to
> that any time soon either. So what if emacs ui goes head first and does
> something that should be done in the CLI in a perfect world? If it's
> added properly, it can be taken out if/when this pops up in the CLI.

Too late.  See id:"1326258173-21163-1-git-send-email-amdragon at mit.edu"

another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Jameson Graef Rollins]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:01:32 -0400, David Bremner  wrote:
> Just thinking out loud here, but it does seem a bit unfortunate to me
> that it represents a pretty fundamental divergence between the CLI and
> the emacs interface. Mind you, I guess one could make the same argument
> about the libs versus the CLI. Lack of configuration information in the
> library (possibly among other reasons) makes this not too nice to
> support in the current library either.

I think a consensus has formed that this functionality (automatically
suppressing messages with certain tags from searches) is better left to
the CLI, rather than implementing it just in the emacs UI.
Unfortunately I'm not going to get to that any time soon.

However, without that functionality, I really see no reason why we
should be adding any built-in support for adding "deleted" tags in the
emacs UI.  Without the CLI change, "deleted" tags aren't handled any
differently than any other tag, so why should the default emacs UI care.
If users want to bind keys to special tagging operations, they can do so
for themselves [0].

In fact, I'm now starting to think we don't need to add any support for
special tagging operations (such as "deleted") even if we *do* have
support for suppressing them in the CLI.  Special tagging operations
should only be supported if the tagged messages are somehow handled
specially.  If not, then again, we should just leave them up to the user
[0].

All that said, I think I'll just resubmit the couple small changes to
the emacs UI that I think we should consider adopting anyway.

jamie.


[0]
(define-key notmuch-show-mode-map "d"
  (lambda ()
"Delete message"
(interactive)
(notmuch-show-add-tag "deleted")
(notmuch-show-next-open-message)))
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Jameson Graef Rollins]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:47:23 +, David Edmondson  wrote:
> I honestly don't understand the reason for this. If someone wants to not
> see messages that they have tagged as 'deleted', they add 'and not
> tag:deleted' to the end of the search expression.

Adding "and not tag:deleted" in all of your searches vs. having it done
automatically?  That a pretty big usability difference to me.

The config variable is included so that people can turn the
functionality on or off as they see fit.

jamie.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 835 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[David Bremner]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:47:23 +, David Edmondson  wrote:
> On Sat,  7 Jan 2012 14:28:10 -0800, Jameson Graef Rollins  finestructure.net> wrote:
> > I try to address the concerns that have come up in previous attempts.
> > In particular, I include a patch that creates a new customization
> > variable, notmuch-search-exclude-deleted, that will exclude any
> > messages with the "deleted" tag from searches.  

[snip]

> I honestly don't understand the reason for this. If someone wants to not
> see messages that they have tagged as 'deleted', they add 'and not
> tag:deleted' to the end of the search expression.

Just thinking out loud here, but it does seem a bit unfortunate to me
that it represents a pretty fundamental divergence between the CLI and
the emacs interface. Mind you, I guess one could make the same argument
about the libs versus the CLI. Lack of configuration information in the
library (possibly among other reasons) makes this not too nice to
support in the current library either.

d

another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[David Edmondson]

On Sat,  7 Jan 2012 14:28:10 -0800, Jameson Graef Rollins  wrote:
> I try to address the concerns that have come up in previous attempts.
> In particular, I include a patch that creates a new customization
> variable, notmuch-search-exclude-deleted, that will exclude any
> messages with the "deleted" tag from searches.  This actually makes
> "deleted" messages appear effectively deleted, which is one of the
> things cworth wanted to see, and one of the reasons he kept pushing
> back on previous attempts at this functionality.

I honestly don't understand the reason for this. If someone wants to not
see messages that they have tagged as 'deleted', they add 'and not
tag:deleted' to the end of the search expression.

The messages aren't actually deleted because they have the 'deleted'
tag, so why would they not be shown?

If it's really intended that those messages not be shown then perhaps
the tag should be called 'not-shown' or something.

> Also, no tags other than "deleted" are modified.  All tags should be
> orthogonal, and should be handled so.

+1

The name 'deleted' for the tag should be a configuration option, as a
non-English speaker (for example) might want to use something else.
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 197 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

Re: another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[David Edmondson]

On Sat,  7 Jan 2012 14:28:10 -0800, Jameson Graef Rollins 
jroll...@finestructure.net wrote:
 I try to address the concerns that have come up in previous attempts.
 In particular, I include a patch that creates a new customization
 variable, notmuch-search-exclude-deleted, that will exclude any
 messages with the deleted tag from searches.  This actually makes
 deleted messages appear effectively deleted, which is one of the
 things cworth wanted to see, and one of the reasons he kept pushing
 back on previous attempts at this functionality.

I honestly don't understand the reason for this. If someone wants to not
see messages that they have tagged as 'deleted', they add 'and not
tag:deleted' to the end of the search expression.

The messages aren't actually deleted because they have the 'deleted'
tag, so why would they not be shown?

If it's really intended that those messages not be shown then perhaps
the tag should be called 'not-shown' or something.

 Also, no tags other than deleted are modified.  All tags should be
 orthogonal, and should be handled so.

+1

The name 'deleted' for the tag should be a configuration option, as a
non-English speaker (for example) might want to use something else.


pgp1XKKtLJuRB.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
notmuch mailing list
notmuch@notmuchmail.org
http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch

Re: another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[David Bremner]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:47:23 +, David Edmondson d...@dme.org wrote:
 On Sat,  7 Jan 2012 14:28:10 -0800, Jameson Graef Rollins 
 jroll...@finestructure.net wrote:
  I try to address the concerns that have come up in previous attempts.
  In particular, I include a patch that creates a new customization
  variable, notmuch-search-exclude-deleted, that will exclude any
  messages with the deleted tag from searches.  

[snip]

 I honestly don't understand the reason for this. If someone wants to not
 see messages that they have tagged as 'deleted', they add 'and not
 tag:deleted' to the end of the search expression.

Just thinking out loud here, but it does seem a bit unfortunate to me
that it represents a pretty fundamental divergence between the CLI and
the emacs interface. Mind you, I guess one could make the same argument
about the libs versus the CLI. Lack of configuration information in the
library (possibly among other reasons) makes this not too nice to
support in the current library either.

d

___
notmuch mailing list
notmuch@notmuchmail.org
http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch

Re: another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Jameson Graef Rollins]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:47:23 +, David Edmondson d...@dme.org wrote:
 I honestly don't understand the reason for this. If someone wants to not
 see messages that they have tagged as 'deleted', they add 'and not
 tag:deleted' to the end of the search expression.

Adding and not tag:deleted in all of your searches vs. having it done
automatically?  That a pretty big usability difference to me.

The config variable is included so that people can turn the
functionality on or off as they see fit.

jamie.


pgpIJloiuCNqu.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
notmuch mailing list
notmuch@notmuchmail.org
http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch

Re: another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Jameson Graef Rollins]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:01:32 -0400, David Bremner da...@tethera.net wrote:
 Just thinking out loud here, but it does seem a bit unfortunate to me
 that it represents a pretty fundamental divergence between the CLI and
 the emacs interface. Mind you, I guess one could make the same argument
 about the libs versus the CLI. Lack of configuration information in the
 library (possibly among other reasons) makes this not too nice to
 support in the current library either.

I think a consensus has formed that this functionality (automatically
suppressing messages with certain tags from searches) is better left to
the CLI, rather than implementing it just in the emacs UI.
Unfortunately I'm not going to get to that any time soon.

However, without that functionality, I really see no reason why we
should be adding any built-in support for adding deleted tags in the
emacs UI.  Without the CLI change, deleted tags aren't handled any
differently than any other tag, so why should the default emacs UI care.
If users want to bind keys to special tagging operations, they can do so
for themselves [0].

In fact, I'm now starting to think we don't need to add any support for
special tagging operations (such as deleted) even if we *do* have
support for suppressing them in the CLI.  Special tagging operations
should only be supported if the tagged messages are somehow handled
specially.  If not, then again, we should just leave them up to the user
[0].

All that said, I think I'll just resubmit the couple small changes to
the emacs UI that I think we should consider adopting anyway.

jamie.


[0]
(define-key notmuch-show-mode-map d
  (lambda ()
Delete message
(interactive)
(notmuch-show-add-tag deleted)
(notmuch-show-next-open-message)))


pgpFUnDlSGwcj.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
notmuch mailing list
notmuch@notmuchmail.org
http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch

Re: another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Jani Nikula]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:12:16 -0800, Jameson Graef Rollins 
jroll...@finestructure.net wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:01:32 -0400, David Bremner da...@tethera.net wrote:
  Just thinking out loud here, but it does seem a bit unfortunate to me
  that it represents a pretty fundamental divergence between the CLI and
  the emacs interface. Mind you, I guess one could make the same argument
  about the libs versus the CLI. Lack of configuration information in the
  library (possibly among other reasons) makes this not too nice to
  support in the current library either.
 
 I think a consensus has formed that this functionality (automatically
 suppressing messages with certain tags from searches) is better left to
 the CLI, rather than implementing it just in the emacs UI.
 Unfortunately I'm not going to get to that any time soon.

I could have a go at it, but I can't make any promises about getting to
that any time soon either. So what if emacs ui goes head first and does
something that should be done in the CLI in a perfect world? If it's
added properly, it can be taken out if/when this pops up in the CLI.

Also, there already *is* filtering for all tags list. See
notmuch-hello-tag-list-make-query. How about having something like that
for saved searches? I know it's not the same as your original, but it's
middle ground...

 However, without that functionality, I really see no reason why we
 should be adding any built-in support for adding deleted tags in the
 emacs UI.  Without the CLI change, deleted tags aren't handled any
 differently than any other tag, so why should the default emacs UI care.
 If users want to bind keys to special tagging operations, they can do so
 for themselves [0].

In fact, deleted used to be special, but that was, err, deleted
because it had problems: 2c262042ac174d7bc96d6035ab9c88bd0abe7f35. If
that ever gets fixed, deleted would be special again.


BR,
Jani.
___
notmuch mailing list
notmuch@notmuchmail.org
http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch

Re: another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Austin Clements]

Quoth Jani Nikula on Jan 11 at  7:16 am:
 On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:12:16 -0800, Jameson Graef Rollins 
 jroll...@finestructure.net wrote:
  On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:01:32 -0400, David Bremner da...@tethera.net wrote:
   Just thinking out loud here, but it does seem a bit unfortunate to me
   that it represents a pretty fundamental divergence between the CLI and
   the emacs interface. Mind you, I guess one could make the same argument
   about the libs versus the CLI. Lack of configuration information in the
   library (possibly among other reasons) makes this not too nice to
   support in the current library either.
  
  I think a consensus has formed that this functionality (automatically
  suppressing messages with certain tags from searches) is better left to
  the CLI, rather than implementing it just in the emacs UI.
  Unfortunately I'm not going to get to that any time soon.
 
 I could have a go at it, but I can't make any promises about getting to
 that any time soon either. So what if emacs ui goes head first and does
 something that should be done in the CLI in a perfect world? If it's
 added properly, it can be taken out if/when this pops up in the CLI.

Too late.  See id:1326258173-21163-1-git-send-email-amdra...@mit.edu
___
notmuch mailing list
notmuch@notmuchmail.org
http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch

another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Jameson Graef Rollins]

So, after many stabs at adding the ability to "delete" messages in
emacs [0], and the corresponding heated discussions, I'm throwing
another attempt into the fray.

I try to address the concerns that have come up in previous attempts.
In particular, I include a patch that creates a new customization
variable, notmuch-search-exclude-deleted, that will exclude any
messages with the "deleted" tag from searches.  This actually makes
"deleted" messages appear effectively deleted, which is one of the
things cworth wanted to see, and one of the reasons he kept pushing
back on previous attempts at this functionality.

Also, no tags other than "deleted" are modified.  All tags should be
orthogonal, and should be handled so.

Note: this is all about handling the "deleted" tag.  No actual
deletion of message is involved in this functionality at all.  Actual
deletion of messages should always be left entirely up to the user to
handle as they see fit.

jamie.

[0] id:"1266408746-28549-1-git-send-email-Sebastian at SSpaeth.de"
id:"87sk8qwjlt.fsf at yoom.home.cworth.org"
id:"1271891763-10757-1-git-send-email-hohndel at infradead.org"
id:"1310841600-28281-1-git-send-email-anarcat at koumbit.org"

another attempt to add delete functionality in emacs

[Jameson Graef Rollins]

So, after many stabs at adding the ability to delete messages in
emacs [0], and the corresponding heated discussions, I'm throwing
another attempt into the fray.

I try to address the concerns that have come up in previous attempts.
In particular, I include a patch that creates a new customization
variable, notmuch-search-exclude-deleted, that will exclude any
messages with the deleted tag from searches.  This actually makes
deleted messages appear effectively deleted, which is one of the
things cworth wanted to see, and one of the reasons he kept pushing
back on previous attempts at this functionality.

Also, no tags other than deleted are modified.  All tags should be
orthogonal, and should be handled so.

Note: this is all about handling the deleted tag.  No actual
deletion of message is involved in this functionality at all.  Actual
deletion of messages should always be left entirely up to the user to
handle as they see fit.

jamie.

[0] id:1266408746-28549-1-git-send-email-sebast...@sspaeth.de
id:87sk8qwjlt@yoom.home.cworth.org
id:1271891763-10757-1-git-send-email-hohn...@infradead.org
id:1310841600-28281-1-git-send-email-anar...@koumbit.org

___
notmuch mailing list
notmuch@notmuchmail.org
http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch