[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
On 23 Aug 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically The less we know about our musical culture the more it is potentially open to misinterpretaion. Which, IMO, brings us nicely back full circle to: The chief aim of any player is to produce good music. Now this can only be attained by the proper use of his musical instrument. -Tom Clough, 1923 and: It's my personal belief that pipers should first ground themselves in the closed style before going off to try other things, -Chris Ormston, 2008 As to some of the sidelines that this debate has floated, I am reminded of a CD review a few years back in the NPS mag, of a certain group of pipers, in which the reviewer wrote something like: Group piping is like group sex - probably fun for the participants, but not really a spectator sport although non-informed public reaction to the development of piping orchestras yawn would seem to contradict this. (maybe it's the non-informed bit that's crucial - sigh) For the soloist, there is a school of thought that playing a full set of satisfying variations is the most fun one can have standing up. I don't think I'm going to elaborate further. Find out for yourselves - I'm off to practise some instead. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As to some of the sidelines that this debate has floated, I am reminded of a CD review a few years back in the NPS mag, of a certain group of pipers, in which the reviewer wrote something like: Group piping is like group sex - probably fun for the participants, but not really a spectator sport The remark was closer to: Group piping is like sex - its fun if you are taking part, and you don't need to be good to enjoy it, but you do not necessarily want to listen to a recording of others doing it If someone answers Julia's request to write something on Ron Elliot I would be happy to add a few anecdotes and comments. I knew him at the start of the London group meetings in the late 1970s and it was a long time agoI doubt I could offer a full article. Ian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the soloist, . . . playing a full set of satisfying variations is the most fun one can have . . . But for the audience, most frequently, this can seem like the most boring performance of an endless set of technical exercises. As an example of the opposite effect, Chris Ormston played a number of tunes with variations as part of his concert set, including The Keel Row and his own variations on Peacock's Tune, at Killington this year. Neither the Pipers Gathering table nor myself, with bagpipediscs.com's store, had enough copies of Chris's CD to meet demand afterwards. A number of those asking me for it were people who were not Gathering participants but locals who had chosen the concert as their evenings entertainment. Ian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: choyte
And I thought it was simple: Go going Gan ganning (gannin) Cheat cheating Choyte choyting (choytin) Onomatopoeic or dialect or cheating? Neil - Original Message - From: Paul Gretton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: [NSP] choyte Colin wrote: Has anyone come up with the etymology of the word ' choyte'? I find it being used as a shibboleth and fear that if I refuse to acknowledge it I will have my fingers cut off. I wonder if it's a form of cheat? (Just a guess - languages are my business, but admittedly not northeast dialects. ;-) ) Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: choyte
From the prior choyte thread, a few years ago, someone indicated the origin of the term was onomatopoeic, akin to the clucking or cackle of hens or the like. best, Sam And I thought it was simple: Go going Gan ganning (gannin) Cheat cheating Choyte choyting (choytin) Onomatopoeic or dialect or cheating? Neil - Original Message - From: Paul Gretton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: [NSP] choyte Colin wrote: Has anyone come up with the etymology of the word ' choyte'? I find it being used as a shibboleth and fear that if I refuse to acknowledge it I will have my fingers cut off. I wonder if it's a form of cheat? (Just a guess - languages are my business, but admittedly not northeast dialects. ;-) ) Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
Thanks for your comments, Sheila. Firstly I'd like to say that being away from Northumberland is not the disadvantage it's sometimes perceived to be. People often think there's a hotbed of piping, with virtuosity to be heard in some pub every night of the week - it's not like that! The Clough tradition is the only handed-down tradition we have evidence of - the rest is hearsay - and as Julia has already illustrated, the other respected pipers of the 20th Century can be directly linked to the Clough tradition. People often think of the NSP tradition as being folk music, so anything goes, but Forster Charlton's description of the approach while the Cloughs were active tells us that learning our instrument was taken as seriously as any classical instrument, and why not, unless you're not up to scratch?. As a young piper I was subject to the myths of the time = NSP were a rare instrument, difficult to play, and their mysteries closely guarded by a compact group of Northumbrian shepherds. Jack Armstrong was the standard to aspire to because, well, he himself had told people so, even though Pauline Cato's interview with Bill Stafford now informs us that Jack wasn't fond of Northumbrian music. I could digress here into a debate about the relevance, in the 21st Century, of patronage from Percys, Trevelyans, Blackett-Ords and Charltons. Shew's the Way to Wallington? - erm, No Thanks! Anyone care to bite?? My own mission, when teaching piping, is to cut out the sentimental view of much of the 20th century and to avoid learners wasting time in the associated musical cul-de-sacs. Unfortunately there continue to be sentimental lies broadcast by individuals who seek to earn their living from piping, and copying of their styles by those who should know better but see a fast buck in the making. I'm glad that recent research has finally supported the gut feelings I had when I started playing 32 years ago. Unfortunately this new knowledge challenges the schemas of many who were sucked in by sentiment and myth, and I fear there will be a few broken hearts on the journey to the truth. Still, if you can't stand the heat. Chris This is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you PS Sorry to ramble - been in the.. http://chrisormston.com/Documents/Bridge_End.pdf -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 August 2008 15:06 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux Obviously everyone has there own opinion regarding what is good form and what is not.However, as a person who is on the periphery of the field, I find it difficult to know what indeed is correct, and what is considered WRONG and to be DAMNED apart from the fact that it should basicly be mastered with closed fingering.From this thread, the impression is given that Clough was virtually the only pure. traditional, expert, and that everyone should be following his dictates. Comparing these arguments with similar discussions on Baroque music, where there are those who hold that it should be played as written i.e. virtually unembellished, there are also those who put forth a very good case for embellishments and whose performances tend to be wonderfully inspiring and musical. Incidently, the unembellished school quite happily accepts, as perfectly correct, the many different renderings of the figured bass which are now found in most editions - modern performers usually being at a loss if handed a copy with the bass as originally written. For the soloist, . . . playing a full set of satisfying variations is the most fun one can have . . . But for the audience, most frequently, this can seem like the most boring performance of an endless set of technical exercises.(Wow! I bet I get either completely ignored ,or slaughtered, for such a heretic remark!!) Frequently group piping tends to sound like a bunch of kids reciting the multiplication tables and seeing who can do it the fastest, combined with the kazoo effect, which in part, is bound to result from lack of standardization of the pitch of the F chanter.We have only to listen to various recordings, some of which are highly recommended as listening material for beginners and for those living outside the native heath; and which seems to be inevitable in all sessions, especially if involving more than 2 pipers. Sheila __ It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal [1]here. -- References 1. http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
Chris, While the main function of Northumbrian pipe music is the ritualistic 'playing with ourselves' it will be considered folk music. Also being in the Folk genre doesn't mean 'anything goes'. Check out Bruno Nettl. Steve D -- Original message -- From: Chris Ormston [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for your comments, Sheila. Firstly I'd like to say that being away from Northumberland is not the disadvantage it's sometimes perceived to be. People often think there's a hotbed of piping, with virtuosity to be heard in some pub every night of the week - it's not like that! The Clough tradition is the only handed-down tradition we have evidence of - the rest is hearsay - and as Julia has already illustrated, the other respected pipers of the 20th Century can be directly linked to the Clough tradition. People often think of the NSP tradition as being folk music, so anything goes, but Forster Charlton's description of the approach while the Cloughs were active tells us that learning our instrument was taken as seriously as any classical instrument, and why not, unless you're not up to scratch?. As a young piper I was subject to the myths of the time = NSP were a rare instrument, difficult to play, and their mysteries closely guarded by a compact group of Northumbrian shepherds. Jack Armstrong was the standard to aspire to because, well, he himself had told people so, even though Pauline Cato's interview with Bill Stafford now informs us that Jack wasn't fond of Northumbrian music. I could digress here into a debate about the relevance, in the 21st Century, of patronage from Percys, Trevelyans, Blackett-Ords and Charltons. Shew's the Way to Wallington? - erm, No Thanks! Anyone care to bite?? My own mission, when teaching piping, is to cut out the sentimental view of much of the 20th century and to avoid learners wasting time in the associated musical cul-de-sacs. Unfortunately there continue to be sentimental lies broadcast by individuals who seek to earn their living from piping, and copying of their styles by those who should know better but see a fast buck in the making. I'm glad that recent research has finally supported the gut feelings I had when I started playing 32 years ago. Unfortunately this new knowledge challenges the schemas of many who were sucked in by sentiment and myth, and I fear there will be a few broken hearts on the journey to the truth. Still, if you can't stand the heat. Chris This is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you PS Sorry to ramble - been in the.. http://chrisormston.com/Documents/Bridge_End.pdf -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 August 2008 15:06 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux Obviously everyone has there own opinion regarding what is good form and what is not.However, as a person who is on the periphery of the field, I find it difficult to know what indeed is correct, and what is considered WRONG and to be DAMNED apart from the fact that it should basicly be mastered with closed fingering.From this thread, the impression is given that Clough was virtually the only pure. traditional, expert, and that everyone should be following his dictates. Comparing these arguments with similar discussions on Baroque music, where there are those who hold that it should be played as written i.e. virtually unembellished, there are also those who put forth a very good case for embellishments and whose performances tend to be wonderfully inspiring and musical. Incidently, the unembellished school quite happily accepts, as perfectly correct, the many different renderings of the figured bass which are now found in most editions - modern performers usually being at a loss if handed a copy with the bass as originally written. For the soloist, . . . playing a full set of satisfying variations is the most fun one can have . . . But for the audience, most frequently, this can seem like the most boring performance of an endless set of technical exercises.(Wow! I bet I get either completely ignored ,or slaughtered, for such a heretic remark!!) Frequently group piping tends to sound like a bunch of kids reciting the multiplication tables and seeing who can do it the fastest, combined with the kazoo effect, which in part, is bound to result from lack of standardization of the pitch of the F chanter.We have only to listen to various recordings, some of which are highly recommended as listening material for beginners and for those living outside the native heath; and which seems to be inevitable in all sessions, especially if involving more than 2 pipers. Sheila
