[NSP] Re: From notation to music
A friend of a friend, who was a trained musician, once amazed me - I played a tune, she (after checking one note if I remember) had to write the dots out, which she did perfectly, before she played it. I was very impressed but confused as it's completely the opposite of the way I work. She was a violinist (not piper, definitely not fiddler) by the way [Probably my first contribution for years] Mike - Original Message - From: colin cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:48 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: From notation to music Interesting thread. As one who plays by getting the dots to sound like the tune I have heard, some of the comments remind me of something in my own family which may clarify some of the problems. Both my mother and her aunt were excellent pianists. The aunt, in particular, having achieved many certificates for her playing. It was interesting, however, to find that she couldn't carry a tune for toffee. Without the dots, she couldn't really play anything at all. With the dots, anything you liked - and as written. My mum could do both but preferred to play by ear which she could do with quite complex tunes. You can guess who was the most popular at parties :-) Most of us, I'm sure, do the latter. Then again, the Chinese whisper syndrome plays a part in tunes changing over the years when transmitted aurally. Is that a good or a bad thing? Of course, it may be good to have an original transcript for historical purposes but, then again, how many traditional tunes have that? As I said, an interesting thread this. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:25 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: From notation to music Matt has said: Any system of notation relies on a culture which knows how that particular music is played, just as any written language relies on people knowing how to pronounce it (greiss / grace etc.). The problems Anthony highlights are well known - use dots if you know how the music sounds, otherwise they are a hindrance. The trouble with tunebooks in simplified notation - eg jigs in straight quavers, or notating rants and reels identically, is that people from different cultural backgrounds, or even nearer/further from the Border, will have very different ideas as to how to play the tunes. Ideally the best way of understanding 'how a tune really goes' is to listen to a good traditional performance. This is why recordings from traditional sources are so important, and contact with live traditional performers even more so. But some literalist note-players - particularly if they are classically trained, and/or far from Northumberland - tend to believe that if a jig is notated in straight quavers, it 'should' sound in equal straight quavers; or if a hornpipe is notated in dotted quavers and semiquavers, the dotted quavers 'should' take 3 times as long as the semi's. The only way to explain these aspects of style to someone who takes notation literally is probably if the NPS or someone publish a style guide with examples. Breathnach and others have done this for Irish music - it was Breathnach's little book and CRE volumes 1 and 2 that taught me what I should listen for. Stuart Hardy has started a similar job for Northumbrian music with his book on jigs - but the job isn't finished yet. Rants, reels and hornpipes, anyone? John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 04 November 2009 11:24 To: gibbonssoi...@aol.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, with dotted and undotted quavers alternating. Do you mean 20/16, John? Any system of notation relies on a culture which knows how that particular music is played, just as any written language relies on people knowing how to pronounce it (greiss / grace etc.). The problems Anthony highlights are well known - use dots if you know how the music sounds, otherwise they are a hindrance. Ancedote, half-remembered: an arranger scored out a trumpet part for Miles Davis with a serious attempt at imitating what he understood of the nuanced rubato of Miles' phrasing - Miles said, I can't read this, man, write it straight, I'll phrase it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus
[NSP] Re: nps
Everybody is discussing the statement A bad player puts people off the instrument and also teaches you the wrong was to play. Where does that leave us ? I've reached a certain level of proficiency in the instrument, I try to keep my fingering detached as far as I can but I'm conscious that at speed my right hand doesn't respond as well as it should, so I do tend to not be detached on lower notes on fast tunes. I'm aware that this is not where I'm trying to get, but already being in the bus pass generation I doubt it'll ever be right. Should I not be playing the pipes in public, in case people are put off or taught the wrong way to play ? Should I just give up ? I personally think people hear me playing, and hear other more proficient players playing, and are aware that I'm not as good as the best. That's true of most of the musicians in the gatherings I go to. However, the attitude of certain of those posting on this newsgroup seems to be - don't bring your pipes out in public until you're perfect. I'm also probably choyting, although most of the definitions I've seen on this newsgroup haven't been very clear. I have been trying to avoid certain gracings (which might come in this definition) recently. Listening to myself more critically, I can hear them not sounding very good. I came to nsp from whistle, perhaps the cause of my incorrect technique. However, I didn't think we were really discussing the playing of bad players (possibly including myself) but those who have mastered the correct techniques and can use them when they want, and chose to also add other wrong techniques because (in their view) they add to the listening experience. I think that a certain Kathryn Tickell is the main target of the abuse in this context isn't she ? That's where the fundamental difference in opinions lies isn't it ? Or perhaps I'm wrong. A long time ago, I think we started discussing some child prodigy whose piping I haven't heard and can't therefore comment on. Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
what...@ntlworld.com said after talking to Tommy Breckons shorltly before his death and chatting to fellow pipers after his funeral, I have come to the conclusion that the Northumbrian Pipers' society has lost its way. I therefore ask: is it time to form some other group or society which bases its playing on a pure, traditional detached fingering technique Then Paul Rhodes oxpi...@hotmail.com said Can we all join? Certainly not, at least until you've submitted to a 2 hour test of your piping technique and received 2 days corrective tuition from a properly approved tutor. Continuing membership will be subject to further testing on at least an annual basis. I can't believe it ! Why did I ever take up this instrument which causes so much bad feeling ? Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
Ian Lawther irlawt...@comcast.net said Enter those who saw the chance to make some money by promoting an attractive young woman who was marketable beyond the dowdy folkies. So is the argument that piping would be far better off without all those who came into piping at least partially as a result of said young woman's playing ? Then we could be left with the dowdy folkies who would at least not play wrongly ? We would thereby get rid of a good number of those who love the instrument but don't play very well, leaving this job to an elite few who have really mastered the instrument and the correct way of playing. It would reduce pipe-makers waiting lists, and really be a very positive contribution to the continuation of piping. Pity I don't be involved though. I would add (removing my tongue from cheek) that I really do enjoy Chris Ormston's music. I also have never understood (or known half of) the affair of the bloke who is sitting on folk recordings and refusing to release them, but I do understand that this is affecting many other folk artistes beyond the piping fraternity* and therefore cannot be convinced that there is a conspiracy against certain pipers. * Perhaps fraternity is an inappropriate term at the moment. Mike Walton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Halsway playaround
Alan I think one of the good things about the Sunday session was the other musicians there, which couldn't be arranged at other times (except perhaps Friday, but it's good to meet old friends and play together then). I also agree about the amount of tuition being about right. One idea I would like to float though (related to my sight-reading probably) is to ask views on the merit of taking a well-known tune(s) and giving tuition on the development of style, phrasing, gracing etc. I know some players like to learn a new tune, but if I am struggling all the time to play the right notes it doesn't allow any work on the finer points of playing. Views please ? Mike - Original Message - From: Alan Corkett a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk To: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Cc: NSP LIST nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 12:12 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Halsway playaround Halsway Playaround Sorry if I was being provocative about less tuition! Naturally we can insert more informal playing Saturday afternoon for those who wish to do this. In fact Ben from Wales introduced this when he came several years ago, unfortunately has not attended last two events. Alan -Original Message- From: Gibbons, John [mailto:j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk] Sent: 13 March 2009 10:50 To: 'Alan Corkett'; Mike and Enid Walton Cc: NSP LIST Subject: [NSP] Re: Halsway playaround Alan, I think this would be a bad idea - the tuition is crucial to getting people thinking intensively about piping. The playarounds are better in consequence. John - To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/1999 - Release Date: 03/13/09 05:59:00
[NSP] Re: Tune Phrasing / Rants / Reels / Polkas
I suppose it's a problem you face whenever playing music not from your own tradition. It took a melodeon workshop in Ireland to make me realise that I had a local style of box playing, and that I want to keep it ! If it's an Irish reel or jig, it normally goes on the whistle now. Some polkas fit well on the box though. With the pipes, it's a question of whether we stick to the style for the area where the pipes came from, or just use them for our own local music, in our own local style. I play lots of Northumbrian tunes, but also nationally common tunes (including Jimmy sorry Jamie sorry Jimmy Allen) and I played Dorset Four Hand Reel on Sunday. I'm trying to learn the Worcestershire Hornpipe. Yes, I really enjoyed Halsway, especially the informal session / play-a-round on Sunday. I was struggling at times during the tutorials though. I wish my sight-reading was better ! Mike - Original Message - From: Paul Rhodes oxpi...@hotmail.com To: Dartmouth NSP nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tune Phrasing / Rants / Reels / Polkas Hi Mike, This is a forum for the Northumbrian Pipes and the traditional music of the north east, and as such is often very interesting and informative. It helps us all to work on playing the pipes well and to figure out how we can improve our playing in the Northumbrian tradition. But please don't ask the northerners how we should play tunes in our own area! We can be proud of our own tradition here, which is rich and thriving even if we don't shout quite so loud. Let the northerners do the ranting, we can enjoy playing them however we like. Wasn't Halsway great as always? All the best, Paul Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:23:19 + To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mikeande...@worcesterfolk.org.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Tune Phrasing / Rants / Reels / Polkas So we've had a long discussion about rants, reels, polkas. I'm sure that those resident in the North-East should continue to play these tunes with a good traditional rant rhythm. What about those pipers like me, resident in the far south ? Some of the tunes we play on the pipes (Salmontails, Winster Gallop for instance) are common across the whole country, and are played as polkas hereabouts. When I introduce some other North Eastern tunes, even if I had the ability to ensure they started as rants, the other mujsicians around me would probably turn them into polkas. Yet tunes have always historically drifted across the country, into Ireland and Scotland and back, etc such than you often can't tell where they started ! It also begs the question as to whether, as a southerner, I should be trying to play them as rants at all ! Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Beyond Hotmail see what else you can do with Windows Live. [1]Find out more! -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665375/direct/01/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 03/11/09 20:42:00
[NSP] Re: First 30 tunes
: rosspi...@aol.com said as we have most of the other tunes that are in our publications in ABC form it could be applied to all those tunes that beginners have difficulty in lifting off the page. As you say the main problem is in finding someone to do the job. Colin R If we do actually have tunes in NPS publications in abc format there shouldn't be a lot of work in compiling them into an abc file for each book and posting them on a web-site. The work of converting them into abc is the biggest part. Presumably the Society would have to agree that was the way it wanted to go - is the volume of book sales, or the dissemination* of the information most important ? The copyright tunes could be omitted until or unless we got permission. I assume there are no copyright issues on the traditional material. If we do have the majority of the tunes in abc, I'd be willing to give a try to one book. If I found it too much, I could always do as much as I'm able. I could put the file in my web-space and someone with the knowledge could link from the nps site (new or old). Mike Walton * Not spell-checked, so please no lengthy correspondence on my spelling ability. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Loud Drones
Does nobody have any suggestions for this problem ? I was eagerly awaiting a flurry of responses as I also have the same problem. I tried putting wool in the drones, only distorted the sound I'm afraid. Mike Walton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
