Re: [NTG-context] Additional steps taken since the first e-mail

2005-02-27 Thread VnPenguin
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 01:34:00 +0100, Johannes Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 newinstaller,
 i struggled more than one day with installation of context. i'm using a
 different OS (redhat linux) and have a different tex-distribution on it
 (tetex), but maybe this hint is useful for you too:
 in the tetex-distro there is a file .../texmf/web2c/fmtutil.cnf . in
 this file the lines for context were commented by default - you have to
 uncomment them and run fmtutil --missing afterwards (or fmtutil
 -all, if you have more time). maybe in miktex there's somthing
 similiar. at my first try i forget to run fmtutil, edited texexec.ini
 and run texexec --make which worked. but afterwards context had some
 special features.

Which version of teTeX ? with Redhat linux I imagine that's very
out-of-date tex system, right ?
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: lack of hyphenation

2005-02-27 Thread Taco Hoekwater
Ciro A. Soto wrote:
I suppose there is a problem then ...right?
Yes, there is.
I'm sorry I missed that you were using plain earlier,  I must be getting 
too old for this stuff. ;-) Thanks Patrick!

This thread is (almost certainly) discussing the same problem:
http://archive.contextgarden.net/message/20041228.225433.b0bd0faf.html
But the best advice is to upgrade your ConTeXt to the latest, but
you could also re-enact the fix in that thread.
Greetings, Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] lettrine.sty, but not LaTeX

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
basically you want to follow a shape; this is not that hard to 
implement so i can have a look at it; lettrines is then an instance of it
Lettrine is easier than that, actually. I thought this would be quite
funny, so here is a brand new module called t-lettri.tex, and an example.
ah, nice, so, lettrines only does a slanted shape?
i played a bit with shapes last night and will probably add something to the 
drop macros, and probably also move the code to core-fnt; but it will be a bit 
more complex and take some more time; it's a good testbed for playing with 
things like glyph shape similarity and such; also, proper alignment is an issue.

(i attached supp-fu3.tex, no production code, just for fun)
concerning your module, maybe we should introduce a new category of modules, 
e.g. c-lettrines.tex with x meaning 'converted'; we can then collect them in 
another zip;

remark 1:
\sbox is already definined and in use,
i remember someone telling me that this \hbox{{#1}} stuff is needed to satisfy 
latex's color mechanism, but that's not needed in context, so a simple

\setbox\Lettrinetbox{}
is not only even more efficient in terms of tokens and performance (unnoticable) 
but also does not clash with the core macro.

remark 2:
auto-lettrines (dropcaps etc) are kind of complex in the sense that it's not 
trivial to pick up the first 'something' in a paragraph in a robust way [we may 
want some extension to tex for that (so we have something to discuss during our 
trip to eurotex -)

Hans
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supp-fu3.tex
Description: TeX document
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Re: [NTG-context] Bad page breaks!

2005-02-27 Thread G.C.H.M. Verhaag
 Hans Hagen wrote:
..
did you try:
\widowpenalty=0
\clubpenalty=0
Sorry, for the somewhat delayed response!
I tried these penalty settings but they seem to have not effect at all! 
The only way out is probably rearranging several paragraphs.

However I find it strange that I can't influence this page breaking at all!
Geert
--
Geert C.H.M. Verhaag
St. Jorisstraat 29
5954 AN Beesel
NETHERLANDS
Tel.: (+31)-774742493, E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [NTG-context] languages

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
VnPenguin wrote:
Vietnamese lang uses empty hyphenation pattern.
ok, se i've now added:
description language='vn'
commentVietnamese needs no patterns./comment
/description
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Re: [NTG-context] lettrine.sty, but not LaTeX

2005-02-27 Thread Taco Hoekwater
h h extern wrote:
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Lettrine is easier than that, actually. I thought this would be quite
funny, so here is a brand new module called t-lettri.tex, and an example.
ah, nice, so, lettrines only does a slanted shape?
Yes, only slopes (both directions). And it allows the user to move
the actual initial box to a `more pleasing' location.
\sbox is already definined and in use,
I will fix this (and write documentation), but I will not have
time for that until after EuroTeX (march 7-11).  If anybody wants
stuff added that is not in lettrine.sty, feel free to tell me.
Greetings, Taco

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RE: [NTG-context] lettrine.sty, but not LaTeX

2005-02-27 Thread Mats Broberg
 auto-lettrines (dropcaps etc) are kind of complex in the 
 sense that it's not 
 trivial to pick up the first 'something' in a paragraph in a 
 robust way [we may 
 want some extension to tex for that (so we have something to 
 discuss during our 
 trip to eurotex -)
 
 Hans

If I may chime in:

Also, automated drop caps (if that is what you refer to) is not a
feasible way to go if high typographic quality is important. Different
typefaces and different characters need different level of protruding
into the left margin, as well as other actions of tweaking. As an
example, the automated drop caps in some of the more famous DTP programs
are useless.

Best regards,
Mats Broberg


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[NTG-context] packaging of extra modules

2005-02-27 Thread Taco Hoekwater
Peter M√ľnster wrote:
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

This is just a port of lettrine.sty, and I do not believe it should
be part of standard ConTeXt.
Why not?
In it's current state, I will not offer support for this code because
it is essentially a quick and dirty query-replace hack without any
quality testing (as is obvious from the fact that I just redefined
the predefined \sbox macro).
If it were part of the main distribution, someone would have to support
it, and if that person is not me, then it will wind up being Hans, who
has better things to do than support code that he has not even written.
Hans and I will no doubt discuss this during EuroTeX. Perhaps the
best way to distribute things like this would indeed be a separate
file that contains all of the (known) optional stuff, with a large
no support provided disclaimer. Perhaps...
Greetings, Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] lettrine.sty, but not LaTeX

2005-02-27 Thread Adam Lindsay
Mats Broberg said this at Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:51:04 +0100:

 Different
typefaces and different characters need different level of protruding
into the left margin, as well as other actions of tweaking.

Ah, but when Hans says this:

 it's a good testbed for playing with 
things like glyph shape similarity and such; also, proper alignment is an
issue.

... it makes me think that these things may indeed be under
consideration, as it sounds like hooks into the recently-improved
Handling mechanisms.

(And then fancy Lettrine handling sounds like it becomes 2-dimensional
handling, then I start thinking about Optical Kerning features in
Famous DTP Package and then I get dizzy, and need to sit down.)
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21+44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
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Re: [NTG-context] m-letter stationary]

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Rob Ermers wrote:
Hans,
Thanks again for the new code.
I tried it in my document with my stationary, but it did not work.
When I create a new test document with the code you suggested, all pages 
have VERY ODD in the upper left corner.
did you add
\setuppagenumbering[alternative=doublesided]
Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] lettrine.sty, but not LaTeX

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
David Wooten wrote:
Hmm, this is great.
However, I can't seem to get it to accept an image (Image=true or 
Image=yes). Anyone else have some luck?

It couldn't work. Here is a new version, with fixed image support,
some cleanups in the code, and support for per-argument setup
functionality as provided by \LettrineOptionsFor{...} in LaTeX
The one thing I could not/did not solve is how to make ConTeXt shut
up about 'bodyfont 112.5pt is defined (can better be done global)'.
just do something
in setup: LettrineFont = Serif
in code: \definedfont[Serif at ...]
instead
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Re: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Ciro A. Soto wrote:
The knowlegeable John Culleton said in one of the
lists that he could recognize if a book was typeset
with
MS-word by looking at the rivers and the lack of
but tex is *not* avoiding rivers, since it does not look at it -)
hyphenation. I then checked my 310-page book I am
typesetting with context and not a single line had a
hyphenated word at the end.
what happens when you say:
\en \hyphenatedword{somethingverylong}
when generating a format, are patterns loaded?
if not, make sure that in cont-usr.tex the us hyphenation filename matches the 
one on your system,

ushyph1.tex
ushyph2.tex
ushyphen.tex
hyphen.tex
unfortunately those names change per distribution, year, season, user, blow of 
the winds, etc

[in a next release, already in alpha, you can use different methods, see 
hyphenation document on web site]

Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] arabtex support - we broke something

2005-02-27 Thread mzm
Arabic processor `ArabTeX' [20050124 patch level 3.11m (24.01.2005)]
I believe the version is 3.11, patch level m. The one I from CTAN dated 
at 24/01/2005.

On 25-Feb-05, at AM 06:00, h h extern wrote:
mohd zamri murah wrote:
Using test.tex and your new m-arabtex.tex, it fail. log and my 
solution below.
what version of arabtex do you use?
Hans
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mohd zamri murah
fakulti teknologi sains maklumat
UKM
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Re: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Try this: \showhyphens{hyphenation}
It should print
  Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 2--2
  [] \*10ptrmtf* hy-phen-ation
on your terminal. If it doesn't, ConTeXt refuses the hyphenate
English, possibly because the patterns were not loaded in the
format (in that case, updating your ConTeXt is the easiest
solution).
the idea behind the language file posted some time ago is that we can create a 
testbed;

[i can imagine that taco/patrick work out something for the mirror/wiki that 
unpacks the cont-tmf zip, tests format generation and missing things; kind of 
user download simulation]

also, karl berry (tug, tex live, everything tex) is willing to set up a tex live 
related testbed for testing if that distributions are shipped 'correct', so if 
you have test files ...

Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: lack of hyphenation

2005-02-27 Thread Taco Hoekwater
Patrick Gundlach wrote:
Hello Hans,
MS-word by looking at the rivers and the lack of
but tex is *not* avoiding rivers, since it does not look at it -)
Not yet :-)
It is easy to make TeX look, but not as easy to make it see :-)
Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] 4UP with no table of content - bug?

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Ciro A. Soto wrote:
I have this 310-page book with a table of content
that is alsways fine when I use a single page layout.
When I switch to
\setuparranging [2UP,rotated,doublesided]
it also prints the table of content, however,
if I rerun the job for a second time using
the 2UP, the table of content disappears.
Is it a bug or do I need to do something special?
arranged pages flush entries to the tui/tuo file in a different order and that 
messes up things.

try:
texexec --arrange .
Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] m-letter stationary]

2005-02-27 Thread Rob Ermers
Thanks very much!
Now it works perfectly!
In hindsight everything is simple.
Robert
h h extern wrote:
Rob Ermers wrote:
Hans,
Thanks again for the new code.
I tried it in my document with my stationary, but it did not work.
When I create a new test document with the code you suggested, all 
pages have VERY ODD in the upper left corner.

did you add
\setuppagenumbering[alternative=doublesided]
Hans
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RE: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-27 Thread Mats Broberg
Ciro A. Soto wrote:

 The knowlegeable John Culleton said in one of the
 lists that he could recognize if a book was typeset
 with
 MS-word by looking at the rivers and the lack of
 hyphenation. I then checked my 310-page book I am
 typesetting with context and not a single line had a
 hyphenated word at the end.
 
 So, my question is: Is it okay?

Oops - sorry for the misreading! I thought you asked if it was
_typographically_ okay - hence my lengthy answer about HJ, Bartels et
al...!

Best regards,
Mats Broberg

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Re: [NTG-context] lettrine.sty, but not LaTeX

2005-02-27 Thread Taco Hoekwater
Ok, so I *should* be doing other stuff, but this is just a lot
of fun, so here is the 3rd version, with three bugfixes
- No more font messages
  (followed Hans' advice)
- No more \sbox redefinition
  (used it's expansion instead)
- The page breaks unless the lettrine actually fits
  (this is an independant improvement by me)
This is the last version before EuroTeX. Really. ;-)
Greetings, Taco
h h extern wrote:
just do something
in setup: LettrineFont = Serif
in code: \definedfont[Serif at ...]
instead
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t-lettri.tex
Description: TeX document
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RE: [NTG-context] lettrine.sty, but not LaTeX

2005-02-27 Thread Mats Broberg
Taco,

Great work. I did some tests of this and have a few comments:

- I tested with the inital H and
[Lines=4,Hang=.1,Nindent=20pt,Findent=20pt]. This makes the H itself be
indented too (see enclosed dump). It seems that Findent adds space both
before and after the dropcap, when it only should add after the dropcap.


- The text font seems to be defaulted to small capitals. However, this
is merely one of the conventions how text after a dropcap is set. Other
conventions include e.g. roman or italic caps, roman or italic lower
case etc.

- Regarding the slope one should be able to set indentation separately
for each line. This depends on the fact that some characters call for a
different type of intendation of the lines - e.g. the character L.

- Sometimes there is a need to indent the dropcap slightly itself, e.g.
if one uses a quotation mark before the dropcap. So a parameter to
control that would be great.

However, bear in mind that I installed ConTeXt for the first time
yesterday and have never used TeX and children before, so I may very
well have done something wrong when I used the module...! :)

Best regards,
Mats Broberg

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco Hoekwater
 Sent: den 27 februari 2005 15:29
 To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
 Subject: Re: [NTG-context] lettrine.sty, but not LaTeX
 
 
 
 Ok, so I *should* be doing other stuff, but this is just a 
 lot of fun, so here is the 3rd version, with three bugfixes
 
 - No more font messages
(followed Hans' advice)
 - No more \sbox redefinition
(used it's expansion instead)
 - The page breaks unless the lettrine actually fits
(this is an independant improvement by me)
 
 This is the last version before EuroTeX. Really. ;-)
 
 Greetings, Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] Additional steps taken since the first e-mail

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Mats Broberg wrote:
However, when I run the test file, I still get the unknown file type:
texmfscripts as the first entry, but the test file seem to be processed
anyway. Does this mean I can forget about this warning?
seesm like your tex binaries and context scripts are not in sync;
Also, what does mktexlsr refer to, that Matthew mentions below? In the
texexec.ini file it is mentioned in relation to fptex and tetex, but
for miktex the corresponding line says:
for  miktex  set  TeXHashExecutable to  initexmf --update-fndb
miktex and web2c have a different filename databases, but miktex has kpsewhich 
bundled so it can work with apps that depend on that

Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] small caps

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Adam Lindsay wrote:
This is good stuff. I've tried to advocate a naming convention that would
be appropriate to this. I would suggest calling this texnansi-osfsc.enc,
as baseencoding-variant.enc. This is so a modified encoding can
masquerade as the base encoding within ConTeXt.
i'll add the encoding to the distribution (i just made the formatted file with 
the info sent) [of course users will need to generate the tfm files themselves]

once we have made the switch from map files to inline map code, we can apply 
different encodings more easily at the typescript level (no more need for map files)

another thing coming is that pdftex will provide primitives to set those 
encodings independently of other characteristics (hartmut is working on this);

Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] lettrine.sty, but not LaTeX

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Taco Hoekwater wrote:

Gerben Wierda wrote:
 
how do you handle additions like this in your ConTeXt distribution? 
Will they become part of it for instance?

Hans usually asks authors whether they want the module to be part
of the distribution. Mostly, authors say yes, but not always.
This is just a port of lettrine.sty, and I do not believe it should
be part of standard ConTeXt. I guess that means I should submit
it to CTAN
as usual taco is right -)
the main challenge with such modules is to avoid name conflicts, not so much a 
problem for the taco's who know context inside out, but maybe tricky for others

i can imagine something along the lines:
- if someone has such a port, given that it has aproper namespace, as taco did 
with his module, it can end up in

   context/port/tryout
- once a few people has looked at the code in order to uncover potential areas 
of conflict and/or to identify places that can be contexified [low level calls, 
fonts, etc], and when the code is tagged okay, it can move to

   context/port/final
watch the lower alphabetic order, it will then overload pending copies in tryout
- each module should have a test file that end up in
   context/port/test
so that users can check if things work as expected
being too rigourous is bad for development, but we need to have some 
rules/methods in order not to end up in a low level redefinition mess (not 
unthinkable when one converts from another macro package); of course we can 
always create

- context/port/yourownrisk
- context/port/zombie
last in the search path
as said by taco, ctan is the place to collect the files; each module can have a 
wiki page

taco and i can make t-figurines into an example [reference] for such a model
Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt and DocBook - beginner's questions

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Adam Lindsay wrote:
These namespaces contain elements with different levels of abstraction.
ContML is higher-level, more structural, fx (just a demonstration, so
far) was a bit more low-level, somewhere between ConTeXt and FO.
one of the downsides of xml is that it comes with set of 'standard solutions' 
that, instead of aiming at specific areas, try to cover all. This sometimes may 
backfire; for instance, at pragma we encounter projects where:

- everyone told us fo is the ultimate solution, so let's apply fo for real 
typesetting i.e. replace dtp, while (1) fo provides a subset of solutions, (2) 
sometimes a typesettign engine needs some info in order to provide a good 
solution (e.g. not all tables are tables, and not all section headers are items, 
and consistent typesetting demands structured font handling instead of local 
font specs and switches)

- our documents are coded in xml, so we can do everything we want, while in 
practice most docs are rather poorly coded, lack detail, lack detailed 
structure, demonstrate tag abuse, etc. you don't wanna know what we run into

- the idea behind the fx approach is to stay in the xml realm while providing 
the full power of a typesetting engine; for instance, one xan use xslt to handle 
ann the numbering, but at the same time let the typesetting engine know that it 
is dealing with sectioning; or, one can map tabular data onto the most suitable 
mechanism available, or one can stick to symbolic font changes and let the 
engine apply the best strategy

This is one of the biggest blessings and curses of XML. Having helped
design an ISO standard using XML, this had an immense effect on what we
did. Yes, it's a standard, but how can we be sure that people don't try
to create documents with other, private elements?
eh, the   part is standard, element (names) are free
FO isn't for everyone.
In fact, some here have a rather poor opinion of it. (I tend to agree,
but let's try to steer away from a flame war.)
one interesting application of fo i see is 'placed xml'
[all those approaches, fo included, have their pro's and con's so let's support 
them all and use them when applicable;

However, XSL-FO is rather indisputably a page layout vocabulary, and not
semantic/structured markup. If you're from the TEI world, I don't need to
go further there.
one thing that i notice in applying fo is that it is used in ways and for docs 
that would look way better when simple mapping was used, apart from the fact 
that it would process faster;

xml - xslt - xml - intermediate tex - tex - pdf
xml - xslt - xml - context - pdf
is a solution for many situations : use xslt for powerfull manipulations (for 
which tex is not real handy) and use tex for doing the typesetting


Creating these workaround
vocabularies adds another layer to processing and seems to add to the
complexity of processing XML.
the idea is to have libraries with xml snippets (compare this to xslt: we now 
see libraries showing up there as well to get around the nasty bits)

Depends on the source format. I use that extended ContML as an
intermediate format, because I'm converting from a much more complex file
format that doesn't make the document structure very transparent. That
suits my needs well.
that's indeed the idea
It's one of the reasons why I bring things to my intermediate format that
corresponds with ConTeXt macros: I can break into expert ConTeXt to
configure things when I want to get sophisticated.
indeed, but i admit that we need to provide demos of that approach in order to 
show the benefits

[another benefit is that when we stay in the xml realm, we can use xml editors 
and such]

for a starter, just play with
  xml - xslt - contextcode - pdf
  xml - xslt - xml - contextmappings - pdf
  xml - contextmappings - pdf
first, because you get a feeling for what context does then,
Hans
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 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: lack of hyphenation

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Patrick Gundlach wrote:
Hello Hans,
MS-word by looking at the rivers and the lack of

but tex is *not* avoiding rivers, since it does not look at it -)

Not yet :-)

It is easy to make TeX look, but not as easy to make it see :-)
It has to do with grayness, so i wonder what happens if a paragraph would be 
converted into a bitmap and analyzed with a neural net

Hans
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 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] Additional steps taken since the first e-mail

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Johannes Werner wrote:
newinstaller,
i struggled more than one day with installation of context. i'm using a 
different OS (redhat linux) and have a different tex-distribution on it 
(tetex), but maybe this hint is useful for you too:
in the tetex-distro there is a file .../texmf/web2c/fmtutil.cnf . in 
this file the lines for context were commented by default - you have to 
uncomment them and run fmtutil --missing afterwards (or fmtutil 
-all, if you have more time). maybe in miktex there's somthing 
similiar. at my first try i forget to run fmtutil, edited texexec.ini 
and run texexec --make which worked. but afterwards context had some 
special features.
texexec --make --alone
will not use fmtutil
(since fmtutil does not support the engine model of tds the latest versions of 
texexec no longer call fmtutil, so if you want to use fmtutil instead you need 
to uncomment those line)

Hans
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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] arabtex support - we broke something

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
mzm wrote:
Arabic processor `ArabTeX' [20050124 patch level 3.11m (24.01.2005)]
I believe the version is 3.11, patch level m. The one I from CTAN dated 
at 24/01/2005.
hm, i run 3.08 (texlive) and that one runs ok; can you try 3.08
Hans
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  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
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 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] Bad page breaks!

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
G.C.H.M. Verhaag wrote:
 Hans Hagen wrote:
..
did you try:
\widowpenalty=0
\clubpenalty=0

Sorry, for the somewhat delayed response!
I tried these penalty settings but they seem to have not effect at all! 
The only way out is probably rearranging several paragraphs.

However I find it strange that I can't influence this page breaking at all!
can you make a small sample file that you would like to see different?
Hans
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 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] Python,swig and pdftex ?

2005-02-27 Thread luigi.scarso




Janko Hauser wrote:

  luigi.scarso schrieb:
  
  
I'm try do make something useful with Python and pdftex using swig.
Any suggestions ?


  
  Have you looked at pytex? It does nothing with pdftex, but I do not know
what do you want to actually do.

__Janko

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I have found 
http://www.metatex.org

that seem to be a good starting point.
I would like to explore the possibility to embed a pyhton interpreter
into pdftex,and use it into ConTeXt ("python inside context");
another wish is some python modules to do some typesetting jobs using 
ConTexT ("context inside python"); maybe swig can be help.

luigi


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