Re: [NTG-context] 14th ConTeXt Meeting (2020), Sibřina, Czech Republic

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/31/2020 6:06 PM, Jano Kula wrote:

Dear all,

as you may have noticed: the 14th ConTeXt Meeting will be held in 
Sibřina, Czech Republic on


*September 6–12 (Sun–Sat), 2020*

Meeting people you know from the list is always a great pleasure and fun 
as are discussed topics on LuaTeX, LuaMetaTeX, ConTeXt and their 
practical usage. Talks are not compulsory neither to give nor to attend. 
Still everyone is welcome to even few minutes presentation on her/his 
experiences or troubles and challenges.


Registration will begin on May 1. There will be cheaper early-bird 
period May–June and discount for newcomers. For more information see the 
meeting page .


To have an impression of the meeting see photos from Sibřina in 2018 
 by 
Frans.


See you in September!

If you consider going ... feel free to come up with topics.

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Harfbuzz

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/1/2020 2:48 PM, Denis Maier wrote:

Hi,

I have just read that TeX Live 2020 will use the LuaHBTeX engine for 
LuaLaTeX. What is the status of HarfBuzz with ConTeXt? I've searched the 
wiki, but couldn't find anything.

Do you need something specific?

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] [HOWTO] spanning xtable cells

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/2/2020 4:59 PM, Floris van Manen wrote:

Can someone (please) help me out to fix the incorrect/unintended
stacking of cells within the xtable?

i'll look into it.

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Re: [NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 11:22:26AM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> we are waiting for you to predict the future, when do you think nofemoji
> will pass nofnonemoji (we could draw a curve of how much got added each
> version of unicode) .. visualizing your argument could help

  It’s never going to happen.  Since after the initial addition of over
1000 emojis from the Japanese telcos in 2010 (which few people outside
Japan took notice of at the time), the rate of new emojis has been more
or less constant at 50-100 a year (out of a total of 500-10,000 new
characters / year).  This is never going to come anywhere near close the
100K+ other Unicode characters that already exist.  It wouldn’t be
manageable anyway (not that I think it is now: it can only get worse).

  If the pressure to add new emojis is maintained, one of the big
players is going to get tired of the slow process and solve the issue in
a technical way (by embedding emojis as images for example, that
wouldn’t be revolutionary) or -- my personal favourite, which over a
decade ago I thought was obvious, but clearly isn’t -- they’re going to
break away from the dependency on the Unicode Consortium and start
maintaining their own repository of images with code points in the
private use area.  They’re plenty of space for that there.

Best,

Arthur
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Re: [NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 10:47:46AM +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> I’m aware, just joking around.

  It was hard to tell.

> But we get new emojis all the time but AFAIK there are still 
> characters/glyphs or whole scripting systems missing.

  You do realise that it’s not the same people working on emoji and
ancient scripts, right?  The implication that “if they stopped adding so
many emojis they’d have more time for hieroglyphs instead” is
nonsensical.  More work is not suddenly going to be done on rare scripts
just because emojis are rejected.  If anything, it would probably be the
other way around.

> (Didn’t research: What’s the status of hieroglyphs and cuneiform?)

  Should I google that for you?

https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode12.0.0/ch11.pdf

  “Chapter 11: Cuneiform and Hieroglyphs”.  Since 2014!

Best,

Arthur
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Re: [NTG-context] Official file ending?

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/5/2020 11:00 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:




Am 2020-02-05 um 10:24 schrieb Hans Hagen :

On 2/4/2020 8:27 PM, kaddour kardio wrote:

Since ConTeXT is closer to plain TeX than LaTeX, it is more legitimate to got the 
"dot tex" than latex :)

I always wonder where such info comes from. Plain tex is a 45K file that is 
described in the tex book and serves as template for Don Knuths own styles for 
his books. Much of it is dedicated to setting up fonts and math. I think it was 
never meant to be a general purpose macro package but serve as starting point 
and example of how to apply primitives.


Maybe not PlainTeX, but plain TeX.

E.g. we usually use TeX primitives like \def (even if we have \define), while 
with LaTeX you use \newcommand, similar with \vbox and others.

I understood LuaMetaTeX, as a stripped-down typesetting engine, would be closer 
to the spirit of Knuth’s TeX than a bloated pdfTeX/LuaTeX.
Indeed, although I admit that I added some primitives that I felt were 
missing (which is why we will have foo.lmtx source files).


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/5/2020 10:45 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:


Oh yes, I didn’t think of that. You don’t need a ligature for software cheats, 
though, they’re default.
But if combustion engines get prohibited, does that affect the emojis?


they will be kept (like ancient scripts are supported)

actually this is a problem with icons: will a next generation recognize 
them (like a thrash can being replace by a plastic green container ro 
vacuum cleaner or ...)



Recipes please.


could be a nice one for the next ctx meeting ... a recipe in emoji 
language


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/5/2020 10:37 AM, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:

On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:45:09AM +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest 
version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.


   Just for the record: it is not true at all that Unicode is “mostly
emojis” nowadays.  Even today, the vast majority of characters added
each year is 90% non-emoji.  I make this point at every ConTeXt meeting
I attend, but it really seems nobody is listening ;-)
we are waiting for you to predict the future, when do you think nofemoji 
will pass nofnonemoji (we could draw a curve of how much got added each 
version of unicode) .. visualizing your argument could help


Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] How to approach a ConTeXt language server?

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/4/2020 4:45 PM, Philipp A. wrote:
Language servers are the new big deal in editor and IDE development: 
https://langserver.org/


It would be cool to have a ConTeXt one for autocompletion (for ConTeXt: 
command names, \cite IDs, labels, named parameters, …), 
go-to-definition, hover information (docs about a command) and so on.
The way it works is that you have a server process that is the source of 
truth for all this information, and the editor passes requests to it.
The editor tells the server when it opens/closes files and when the user 
requests something of the above.


The way I’d implement it in ConTeXt is to keep a list of open ConTeXt 
projects in the server (obtained by following \include, \component, 
\product, \environment, \project).

Now my questions begin:

 1. Then I’d make context load the project without compiling it to a PDF
but make it execute some Lua (how do I do this?)
 2. I’d need a way to get all available commands with their signatures
into Lua. I assume this is done here, but how?
http://www.pragma-ade.nl/general/qrcs/setup-en.pdf
 3. Optimally, for hover information and completion, I’d want some
help/doc text for each command that has some. Is there a way to get it?
 4. Optimally, for label autocompletion, I’d also like a list of defined
labels. Since I played around with bibliographies I already know how
to query the bibliography DB from Lua.
 5. Optimally I’d also want some parse tree of each document, but I
assume the way macros work, this doesn’t exist? This would make
things easier that I’d otherwise have to (imperfectly) parse out of
the document (due to things like catcode changes, but I guess I can
pretend they don’t exist and \unprotect is always on)
 6. Optimally, for go-to-definition, I’d also want a list of files
ConTeXt loaded so I can find definitions in it.

Can anyone help me, especially with 1-2? To get me started, it would be 
great to have an example script and a command line to invoke it, which 
makes ConTeXt load a main tex file, execute some Lua, and exit without 
creating a document or writing anything else to the channel Lua writes 
to (stdout?).
There is already some stuff in the distribution (for quite a while so i 
always need to check if it still works, and it seems to do), like:


-- start a help server:

mtxrun --script server --auto --start

-- pop up some help:

mtxrun --gethelp 
--url="http://localhost:8088/mtx-server-ctx-help.lua?command=framed;


which i hook into for instahce F1 in the editor (then it takes the 
command below the cursor).


so basically it's no big deal to add more queries, or instead pipe some 
info to a file or ...


Hans



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Re: [NTG-context] Official file ending?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2020-02-05 um 10:24 schrieb Hans Hagen :
> 
> On 2/4/2020 8:27 PM, kaddour kardio wrote:
>> Since ConTeXT is closer to plain TeX than LaTeX, it is more legitimate to 
>> got the "dot tex" than latex :)
> I always wonder where such info comes from. Plain tex is a 45K file that is 
> described in the tex book and serves as template for Don Knuths own styles 
> for his books. Much of it is dedicated to setting up fonts and math. I think 
> it was never meant to be a general purpose macro package but serve as 
> starting point and example of how to apply primitives.

Maybe not PlainTeX, but plain TeX.

E.g. we usually use TeX primitives like \def (even if we have \define), while 
with LaTeX you use \newcommand, similar with \vbox and others.

I understood LuaMetaTeX, as a stripped-down typesetting engine, would be closer 
to the spirit of Knuth’s TeX than a bloated pdfTeX/LuaTeX.

Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[luigi scarso]

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 10:38 AM Arthur Reutenauer <
arthur.reutena...@normalesup.org> wrote:

>
>   Just for the record: it is not true at all that Unicode is “mostly
> emojis” nowadays.  Even today, the vast majority of characters added
> each year is 90% non-emoji.  I make this point at every ConTeXt meeting
> I attend, but it really seems nobody is listening ;-)
>

 I was.


-- 
luigi
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Re: [NTG-context] How to approach a ConTeXt language server?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2020-02-05 um 10:42 schrieb Philipp A. :
> 
> Thank you, that’s great information!
> 
> What’s the “export XML”?

Should I google that for you?

https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Export


Grüßlinge, Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2020-02-05 um 10:37 schrieb Arthur Reutenauer 
> :
> 
> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:45:09AM +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
>> Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest 
>> version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.
> 
>  Just for the record: it is not true at all that Unicode is “mostly
> emojis” nowadays.  Even today, the vast majority of characters added
> each year is 90% non-emoji.  I make this point at every ConTeXt meeting
> I attend, but it really seems nobody is listening ;-)

I’m aware, just joking around. But we get new emojis all the time but AFAIK 
there are still characters/glyphs or whole scripting systems missing. (Didn’t 
research: What’s the status of hieroglyphs and cuneiform?)

Best, Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2020-02-05 um 10:29 schrieb Hans Hagen :
> 
> On 2/5/2020 9:45 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
>> Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest 
>> version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.
>> Besides several entries for transgender representation, there are also new 
>> animals, and most important: “my” ConTeXt mascot, the Dodo! ;D
> a never ending story i guess

We need to compensate for all the animals that become extinct.

>> see https://unicode.org/emoji/charts-13.0/emoji-released.html
> 
> indeed, i already added those



>> I still miss e.g.
>> - adaptible colors for everything-else-than-skintone (e.g. vehicles)
> 
> and the cars should of course be recognizable as using petrol, diesel, 
> batteries (and some ligature for hybrids, software cheats etc)

Oh yes, I didn’t think of that. You don’t need a ligature for software cheats, 
though, they’re default.
But if combustion engines get prohibited, does that affect the emojis?

>> - political symbols (red flag, hammer-and-sickle – of course the selection 
>> would be a political decision and would cause problems with prohibited, e.g. 
>> nazi, symbols, but maybe we can just get simple flags in several colors? 
>> adaptible would make sense...)
> 
> i think emoji and choices are already political

True. E.g. the selection of national monuments. Why Fuji and not Uluru, Kibo, 
Matterhorn or Zugspitze? (ah, no, there are several Zugspitzen, just no 
Zugenden…)

>> - lots of local and/or vegetarian food (Kässpätzle, Leberkäswecken, 
>> Schupfnudeln, veg. pizza, tofu…)
> i assume that at some point there should also be a descriptive file 
> explaining what these symbols actually represent

Recipes please.

>> - some sense…
> indeed

>> While I agree that we need some standardization in symbols, I still don’t 
>> think it was a good idea to mix them with text glyphs and bloat font 
>> technology with colors.
> lots of weird things indeed ... kind of iconic esperanto so maybe som grammar 
> will come too

Good idea.

There are a lot of emojis that I can’t imagine using or that I don’t 
understand, esp. facial expressions, even if I know western comic and manga 
representations of feelings. And I often miss emojis for the feelings I’d like 
to refer to, like some of those available in old forum software: facepalm, 
banging your head against the wall…

Lassen wir das.

Greetlings, Hraban

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Re: [NTG-context] How to approach a ConTeXt language server?

[Philipp A.]

Thank you, that’s great information!

What’s the “export XML”?

Am Di., 4. Feb. 2020 um 19:09 Uhr schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm <
te...@fiee.net>:

>
> > Am 2020-02-04 um 16:45 schrieb Philipp A. :
> >
> > Language servers are the new big deal in editor and IDE development:
> https://langserver.org/
> >
> > It would be cool to have a ConTeXt one for autocompletion (for ConTeXt:
> command names, \cite IDs, labels, named parameters, …), go-to-definition,
> hover information (docs about a command) and so on.
> > The way it works is that you have a server process that is the source of
> truth for all this information, and the editor passes requests to it.
> > The editor tells the server when it opens/closes files and when the user
> requests something of the above.
> >
> > The way I’d implement it in ConTeXt is to keep a list of open ConTeXt
> projects in the server (obtained by following \include, \component,
> \product, \environment, \project).
> > Now my questions begin:
> >   • Then I’d make context load the project without compiling it to a
> PDF but make it execute some Lua (how do I do this?)
> >   • I’d need a way to get all available commands with their
> signatures into Lua. I assume this is done here, but how?
> http://www.pragma-ade.nl/general/qrcs/setup-en.pdf
>
> Look for the interface files i-*.xml
>
> >   • Optimally, for hover information and completion, I’d want some
> help/doc text for each command that has some. Is there a way to get it?
>
> No, there isn’t. It could be in the interface files if someone would put
> in the work.
>
> >   • Optimally, for label autocompletion, I’d also like a list of
> defined labels. Since I played around with bibliographies I already know
> how to query the bibliography DB from Lua.
> >   • Optimally I’d also want some parse tree of each document, but I
> assume the way macros work, this doesn’t exist? This would make things
> easier that I’d otherwise have to (imperfectly) parse out of the document
> (due to things like catcode changes, but I guess I can pretend they don’t
> exist and \unprotect is always on)
>
> You could run ConTeXt and use the export XML.
>
> >   • Optimally, for go-to-definition, I’d also want a list of files
> ConTeXt loaded so I can find definitions in it.
> > Can anyone help me, especially with 1-2? To get me started, it would be
> great to have an example script and a command line to invoke it, which
> makes ConTeXt load a main tex file, execute some Lua, and exit without
> creating a document or writing anything else to the channel Lua writes to
> (stdout?).
>
> Look at the .tuc file that’s created in a ConTeXt run, it’s a Lua table
> and contains “all“ the information about the project.
>
>
> Greetlings, Hraban
> ---
> https://www.fiee.net
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net
> https://www.dreiviertelhaus.de
> GPG Key ID 1C9B22FD
>
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:45:09AM +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest 
> version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.

  Just for the record: it is not true at all that Unicode is “mostly
emojis” nowadays.  Even today, the vast majority of characters added
each year is 90% non-emoji.  I make this point at every ConTeXt meeting
I attend, but it really seems nobody is listening ;-)

Best,

Arthur
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Re: [NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/5/2020 9:45 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest 
version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.

Besides several entries for transgender representation, there are also new 
animals, and most important: “my” ConTeXt mascot, the Dodo! ;D


a never ending story i guess


see https://unicode.org/emoji/charts-13.0/emoji-released.html


indeed, i already added those


I still miss e.g.
- adaptible colors for everything-else-than-skintone (e.g. vehicles)


and the cars should of course be recognizable as using petrol, diesel, 
batteries (and some ligature for hybrids, software cheats etc)



- political symbols (red flag, hammer-and-sickle – of course the selection 
would be a political decision and would cause problems with prohibited, e.g. 
nazi, symbols, but maybe we can just get simple flags in several colors? 
adaptible would make sense...)


i think emoji and choices are already political


- lots of local and/or vegetarian food (Kässpätzle, Leberkäswecken, 
Schupfnudeln, veg. pizza, tofu…)


i assume that at some point there should also be a descriptive file 
explaining what these symbols actually represent



- some sense…


indeed


While I agree that we need some standardization in symbols, I still don’t think 
it was a good idea to mix them with text glyphs and bloat font technology with 
colors.
lots of weird things indeed ... kind of iconic esperanto so maybe som 
grammar will come too


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Official file ending?

[Philipp A.]

Ha, I was just writing about my confusion, thank you for clearing this up.

So how about I add those four to Wikipedia and the ConTeXt wiki?

Am Mi., 5. Feb. 2020 um 10:23 Uhr schrieb Hans Hagen :

> On 2/4/2020 8:27 PM, kaddour kardio wrote:
> > Since ConTeXT is closer to plain TeX than LaTeX, it is more legitimate
> > to got the "dot tex" than latex :)
> >
> > Le mar. 4 févr. 2020 à 17:57, Pablo Rodriguez  > > a écrit :
> >
> > On 2/3/20 3:28 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> >  > On 2/3/2020 3:07 PM, Philipp A. wrote:
> >  >> Hi!
> >  >>
> >  >> Most text editors have LaTeX specific syntax highlighting, so it
> > makes
> >  >> sense to give your ConTeXt file a ending it can be distinguished
> > with.
> >  >> Is there a blessed one?
> >  >>
> >  >>   * .ctx: Would mirror the semi-common .ltx, but is used for XML
> > files
> >  >> inside of ConTeXt itself
> >  >
> >  > context ctx files are xml files indeed
> >  >
> >  >>   * .mkiv: Is that just for ConTeXt or all LuaTeX stuff? Would
> > it make
> >  >> sense to give text documents that extension?
> >  >
> >  > you can do that (or mkvi or lmtx or ...)
> >
> > Since there are already *.mkxl files in the ConTeXt distribution, I
> > think it may make sense to name the LMTX version MkXL.
> >
> > In any case, MkXL is simpler and clearer that MkIV with LMTX.
> mkiv (four)   : files that expect mkiv (or lmtx)
> mkvi (six): mkiv (or lmtx) files that pass a filter
> mkxl (fourty) : files that expect lmtx
> mklx (sixty)  : lmtx files that pass a filter
>
> (there are some more, like template files and so)
>
> I suppose that latex syntax highlighting filters support tex and sty and
> maybe suffixes i'm noti aware of. So a context specific highlighter
> could support mkiv, mkvi, mkxk and mkvi. At least that's what I do here.
>
> Hans
>
>
> -
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>Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Official file ending?

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/4/2020 8:27 PM, kaddour kardio wrote:
Since ConTeXT is closer to plain TeX than LaTeX, it is more legitimate 
to got the "dot tex" than latex :)
I always wonder where such info comes from. Plain tex is a 45K file that 
is described in the tex book and serves as template for Don Knuths own 
styles for his books. Much of it is dedicated to setting up fonts and 
math. I think it was never meant to be a general purpose macro package 
but serve as starting point and example of how to apply primitives.


Anyway, it's alway interesting to see folws coming up with descriptions 
of context (or whatever relates to it) which then become kind of truths. 
In todays terms we shouls say that 'the community has its own 
influencers' and 'origins of fake news' and ...


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Official file ending?

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/4/2020 8:27 PM, kaddour kardio wrote:
Since ConTeXT is closer to plain TeX than LaTeX, it is more legitimate 
to got the "dot tex" than latex :)


Le mar. 4 févr. 2020 à 17:57, Pablo Rodriguez > a écrit :


On 2/3/20 3:28 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
 > On 2/3/2020 3:07 PM, Philipp A. wrote:
 >> Hi!
 >>
 >> Most text editors have LaTeX specific syntax highlighting, so it
makes
 >> sense to give your ConTeXt file a ending it can be distinguished
with.
 >> Is there a blessed one?
 >>
 >>   * .ctx: Would mirror the semi-common .ltx, but is used for XML
files
 >>     inside of ConTeXt itself
 >
 > context ctx files are xml files indeed
 >
 >>   * .mkiv: Is that just for ConTeXt or all LuaTeX stuff? Would
it make
 >>     sense to give text documents that extension?
 >
 > you can do that (or mkvi or lmtx or ...)

Since there are already *.mkxl files in the ConTeXt distribution, I
think it may make sense to name the LMTX version MkXL.

In any case, MkXL is simpler and clearer that MkIV with LMTX.

mkiv (four)   : files that expect mkiv (or lmtx)
mkvi (six): mkiv (or lmtx) files that pass a filter
mkxl (fourty) : files that expect lmtx
mklx (sixty)  : lmtx files that pass a filter

(there are some more, like template files and so)

I suppose that latex syntax highlighting filters support tex and sty and 
maybe suffixes i'm noti aware of. So a context specific highlighter 
could support mkiv, mkvi, mkxk and mkvi. At least that's what I do here.


Hans


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[NTG-context] Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest 
version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.

Besides several entries for transgender representation, there are also new 
animals, and most important: “my” ConTeXt mascot, the Dodo! ;D

see https://unicode.org/emoji/charts-13.0/emoji-released.html

I still miss e.g.
- adaptible colors for everything-else-than-skintone (e.g. vehicles)
- political symbols (red flag, hammer-and-sickle – of course the selection 
would be a political decision and would cause problems with prohibited, e.g. 
nazi, symbols, but maybe we can just get simple flags in several colors? 
adaptible would make sense...)
- lots of local and/or vegetarian food (Kässpätzle, Leberkäswecken, 
Schupfnudeln, veg. pizza, tofu…)
- some sense…

While I agree that we need some standardization in symbols, I still don’t think 
it was a good idea to mix them with text glyphs and bloat font technology with 
colors.

Greetlings, Hraban
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