[NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-28 Thread Patrick Gundlach
Hi,

 the idea of the keywords is very nice...
 in
 http://wiki.tcl.tk
 you can search for a specific page using the url
 http://wiki.tcl.tk/file

 even more, you can search all pages containing a word like in:

 http://wiki.tcl.tk/menu*

But this is not a pure keyword serach. This is just a fulltext search.

 perhaps it could be copied for ConTeXt wiki...

No, different software. But this is not the point, since you can
search though all pages with the instiki software that I use.

Patrick
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[NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-28 Thread Patrick Gundlach
Hi,


 Also, this could be the url for hight level FAQ
 (this forum it not realy a hight level forum!)

Go ahead and put it in the wiki! Its up to us all to put content in
there.


 - how about ConTeXt future (why it is not open source?)

It is open source, even free software. You can go ahead and change
everything yourself. Pragma ADE has licenced this impressive and
valuable macro package under the terms of the GNU Public License
(GPL)! This is really great! (See mreadme.pdf for details.)


Patrick
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-28 Thread Tobias Burnus
Hello,
Nagy Bence wrote:
- how about ConTeXt future (why it is not open source?)
 

It is open source, even free software. You can go ahead and change
everything yourself. Pragma ADE has licenced this impressive and
valuable macro package under the terms of the GNU Public License
(GPL)! This is really great! (See mreadme.pdf for details.)
   

The document mreadme.pdf contains just the text in the spirit of the
GNU general public licence. Do you think the spirit of GPL is the GPL
itself?
 

Well, it shouldn't matter that much. It is free software by definition 
of the Free Software Foundation. And if ConTeXt is not free software by 
the license in mreadme.pdf, the following terms replace the licence for 
ConTeXt given in mreadme.pdf: This program is free software; you can 
redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General 
Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either 
version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version..
This is the content of Thomas Esser's docs/context/base/LICENSE.teTeX - 
and ,readme.pdf allows TeX distributions to do such a change.

Regards,
Tobias
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-24 Thread Maurice Diamantini
Le 23 juin 04, à 16:54, Patrick Gundlach a écrit :
Hi Maurice,
texshow-web:  http://members.ping.de:8061
ConTeXt wiki: http://members.ping.de:8062
Not accessible!
Perhaps because I'm behind a firewall? I should try at home.
I just double checked that the services both run ok. If there is any
problem that could be on my side, please tell me.
It does work from home,
So I cried to our system administaters, and now it does work
at work too :-)
Thank you very much.

OK, It is open source
But about the documentation.
The easiest way to finf this file is by looking for
mreadme.pdf pragma
in google!
I did 'locate mreadme'.
Yes, but I think the top 10 documents should
directly be accessible from the reference url.
and mreadme.pdf is one of these files
*before* installing context !
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-23 Thread Maurice Diamantin
Le 22 juin 04, à 19:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
the idea of the keywords is very nice...
in
  http://wiki.tcl.tk
you can search for a specific page using the url
yes! it's the best exemple I know about!
No need to define a strict hierchical structure.
Also, this could be the url for hight level FAQ
(this forum it not realy a hight level forum!)
- how about ConTeXt future (why it is not open source?)
- which/where is the reference documentation
  (don't reply with some recursive answer!)
- how many euro poeple would pay for a reference
  ConTeXt book?
I know these questions has been answered somewhere,
and some days ago,
But I know that because I have followed this
mailing list for months.
But I'm not sure I'm able to find these without asking
to this list!
like in
http://wiki.tcl.tk/file
even more, you can search all pages containing a word like in:
http://wiki.tcl.tk/menu*
perhaps it could be copied for ConTeXt wiki...don´t know how tclers do
theirs, but I guess they use tcl and they more or less can give some
advice.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers,
Jose Ignacio
-- Maurice Diamantini   http://www.ensta.fr/~diam
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-23 Thread Tobias Burnus
Hello,
Maurice Diamantin wrote:
- how about ConTeXt future (why it is not open source?)
Well, ConTeXt is regarded as opensource. The last time I read the 
licence it looked pretty free. In how far do you think should ConTeXt 
become more open source? BSD licence without advertising clause? LGPL?
Note that teTeX comes with this licence statement by Thomas Esser 
(doc/context/base/LICENSE.teTeX):

I have taken great care to ensure that teTeX is free
 software. When speaking about free software, I always refer
 to the definition of the Free Software Foundation, given as
 http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-sw.html.
 To my understanding, ConTeXt with the mreadme.pdf-license already
 classifies as free software (as defined by the FSF). To be 100% sure
 of this fact, I hereby make ConTeXt free software by definition
 by adding the following clause to ConTeXt's license:
 If ConTeXt is not free software by the license in mreadme.pdf, the
 following terms replace the licence for ConTeXt given in mreadme.pdf:
   This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
   it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
   the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
   (at your option) any later version.[...]
- which/where is the reference documentation
  (don't reply with some recursive answer!)
Hmm, the problem is that the documentation is* notoriously outdated and 
incomplete. But I think the ConTeXt - the manual is rather good though 
incomplete.
*

- how many euro poeple would pay for a reference
  ConTeXt book?
You mean a printed version of the revised/enhanced ConTeXt - a manual?
Regards,
Tobias
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[NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-23 Thread Patrick Gundlach
Hi,

 the idea of the keywords is very nice...
 in
 http://wiki.tcl.tk
 you can search for a specific page using the url
 http://wiki.tcl.tk/file

 even more, you can search all pages containing a word like in:

 http://wiki.tcl.tk/menu*

But this is not a pure keyword serach. This is just a fulltext search.

 perhaps it could be copied for ConTeXt wiki...

No, different software. But this is not the point, since you can
search though all pages with the instiki software that I use.

Patrick
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texshow-web:  http://members.ping.de:8061
ConTeXt wiki: http://members.ping.de:8062
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[NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-23 Thread Patrick Gundlach
Hi,


 Also, this could be the url for hight level FAQ
 (this forum it not realy a hight level forum!)

Go ahead and put it in the wiki! Its up to us all to put content in
there.


 - how about ConTeXt future (why it is not open source?)

It is open source, even free software. You can go ahead and change
everything yourself. Pragma ADE has licenced this impressive and
valuable macro package under the terms of the GNU Public License
(GPL)! This is really great! (See mreadme.pdf for details.)


Patrick
-- 
texshow-web:  http://members.ping.de:8061
ConTeXt wiki: http://members.ping.de:8062
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-23 Thread Maurice Diamantin
Le 23 juin 04, à 10:51, Tobias Burnus a écrit :
Maurice Diamantin wrote:
- how about ConTeXt future (why it is not open source?)
Well, ConTeXt is regarded as opensource.
OK, probably I looked at this file too long ago.
I agree ConTeXt is now Open source.
But as Open Source, I also (by mistake) mean a SourceForge projet
from which:
- an **unique** starting URL.
- dated version would be available,
- current official documentation (I didn't mean 
documentationsss)
- access (via links) to to any other information (pragma, wiki, ...)


- which/where is the reference documentation
  (don't reply with some recursive answer!)
Hmm, the problem is that the documentation is* notoriously outdated 
and incomplete.
But I think the ConTeXt - the manual is rather good though 
incomplete.
*
Yes I agree that ConTeXt - the manual is **the** currently reference
manual.
As such, it should probably be a more or less maintained an uptodate
(but not as other said uptodate context documents :-) version.

- how many euro poeple would pay for a reference
  ConTeXt book?
You mean a printed version of the revised/enhanced ConTeXt - a 
manual?
Yes!
I know that it's a big work to maintain such a documentation,
and probably (?), even Hans should eat some food (and sleep)
from time to time!
So if this work could be sell as a ConTeXt book.
I think it could make a great difference for peoples who hesitate
to switch from LaTeX to ConTeXt : no book available for now!
This book could be reedited perhaps every 2 years, and
updates (and perhaps the book itself ?) could be made available
on the web.
I agree there is much less ConText user than LaTeX user, but:
- this book whould be the only ConTeXt book available, so it should
  be easy to sell,
- the fact that there is a ConTeXt book should make ConTeXt
  more attractive (as for a SourceForge projet)
-- Maurice
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[NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-23 Thread Patrick Gundlach
Hi Maurice,

 texshow-web:  http://members.ping.de:8061
 ConTeXt wiki: http://members.ping.de:8062

 Not accessible!
 Perhaps because I'm behind a firewall? I should try at home.

I just double checked that the services both run ok. If there is any
problem that could be on my side, please tell me.


 OK, It is open source
 But about the documentation.
 The easiest way to finf this file is by looking for

 mreadme.pdf pragma

 in google!

I did 'locate mreadme'. That was quick I didn't even have to
download the file, it is shipped with ConTeXt... :-)

And for the rest of the documentation, goto
http://www.pragma-ade.com/overview.htm and you will find almost all
available documentation that is available in pdf.

Patrick
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[NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-23 Thread Patrick Gundlach
Hi,

 But as Open Source, I also (by mistake) mean a SourceForge projet
 from which:
 - an **unique** starting URL.

www.pragma-ade.com

 - dated version would be available,

http://www.pragma-ade.com/download.htm

 - current official documentation (I didn't mean
   documentationsss)

Well, ConTeXt is too complicated to have all aspects in one book. 

 - access (via links) to to any other information (pragma, wiki, ...)

http://www.pragma-ade.com/links.htm

 - which/where is the reference documentation
   (don't reply with some recursive answer!)

 Hmm, the problem is that the documentation is* notoriously outdated
 and incomplete.
 But I think the ConTeXt - the manual is rather good though
 incomplete.

 Yes I agree that ConTeXt - the manual is **the** currently reference
 manual.
 As such, it should probably be a more or less maintained an uptodate
 (but not as other said uptodate context documents :-) version.

I agree with you there. The documentation should be updated a bit and
put togehter. The uptodate manuals should go into different manuals
and vanish, since they are not uptodate anymore (perhaps they are
uptodate, but the date is behind). 


[...]

Talking about a sourceforge project. I guess that Hans would still
keep his ConTeXt distribution private (at PRAGMA ADE [btw. what is
the correct way to write your company's name?]) and not care very
much about any other SF project (as long as it does not get into his
way), but would be very reluctant giving support for the different
project. Once an tool is necessary for your everyday work, it is a
bad thing to give it out of your control.

If you need a SF project, make one (actually, there is one as I have
been told). But keep in mind that you should follow the license
restrictions in mreadme.pdf *and* you have to do all by yourself,
since most people here (I guess) are happy the way it is now.


Patrick
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-23 Thread Holger Schöner
Hello,

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Patrick Gundlach wrote:
   [starting ConTeXt wiki at] http://members.ping.de:8062/
  What kind of example documents do you think of? I guess that you know
  that the magazines on the main ConTeXt site have their source code
  included?
  I was thinking of all kinds of day-to-day documents, like the letter
  template I mentioned. I could not find one according to DIN-standards, so I
  did some trial-and-error experiments and created my own. 
 
 What were the difficulties you ran into?

One problem was on how to create a header with a different height for just 
one page for a letter template ... I needed some trickery (I don't recall it 
exactly, now) to make it work, and tried many things on the way. Another was 
the anchoring of layers, although for that I found some very helpful 
documentation (thanks, Hans, for the Details). And, as I'm no wizard in 
TeX, I had some problems with redefining in macros; I still do not know, 
whether these work for all cases now.

  Arguments for a collection could be:
 
  1) Perhaps a comprehensive and classified collection of sample documents
 could spare others such time consuming trials.
 
 a) it is impossible to have a comprehensive collection of documents.
 There are too many faces ConTeXt has.

Okay, but it would be nice to have a starting point, instead of starting all 
projects from scratch. Didn't anybody write a letter for window-envelopes 
yet?

 b) It is hard to classify the documents. Two possibilities:
 
   1)   layout trickery
macro hacking
itemize weirdness
crazy table fun
 
 or
 
   2)   letters
articles
poems
magazines/newspaper
 
 Any other? Which one makes sense?

You are right. But from my perspective, the latter would make more sense. At 
least, I thought about such a collection being useful when I start a new 
project (e.g. a letter ...). Then I could look up, whether there is anything 
I can build on.

For the trickery and stuff, there is the documentation (okay, these are not 
editable by everyone), and one could build a second hierarchy in the Wiki 
which contains simply links to helpful trickery in the other parts ...

-- 
Holger F. Schoener  TU Berlin; Dept. IV: EE and Computer Science
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.cs.tu-berlin.de/~hfsch/
Rooms FR2525Tel: +49-30-314-73115, Fax: -73121
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[NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-22 Thread Patrick Gundlach
Hello Holger,

  [starting ConTeXt wiki at] http://members.ping.de:8062/

 What kind of example documents do you think of? I guess that you know
 that the magazines on the main ConTeXt site have their source code
 included?

 I was thinking of all kinds of day-to-day documents, like the letter
 template I mentioned. I could not find one according to DIN-standards, so I
 did some trial-and-error experiments and created my own. 

What were the difficulties you ran into?


 Arguments for a collection could be:

 1) Perhaps a comprehensive and classified collection of sample documents
could spare others such time consuming trials.

a) it is impossible to have a comprehensive collection of documents.
There are too many faces ConTeXt has.

b) It is hard to classify the documents. Two possibilities:

  1)   layout trickery
   macro hacking
   itemize weirdness
   crazy table fun

or

  2)   letters
   articles
   poems
   magazines/newspaper

Any other? Which one makes sense?

 2) On the other hand, my template could for sure be further improved (beyond
the level, I am capable of), so by putting it on a WIKI, I may get hints
and feedback by others.

Yes, that would be a great thing. This is actually the reason why I
started this wiki (and texshow-web).

 What was your motivation for mentioning such a collection on the WIKI?

Every 4 months this question arises on this mailinglist. (Not really
true).


 Another advantage of the WIKI would be the following: I am often lost, when 
 I try to remember, where I found a certain hint/trick/technique I am 
 remembering. If there is a place where everyone can edit pages and include 
 hints or links to information, then there would be no need to create more 
 and more separate web sites about ConTeXt, because the content could be 
 placed in the WIKI, or it could at least be linked from there.

And (the best part!) there is a search field in the wiki. So if you
have important information there, get it in a few seconds.

But it is up to every user to add things to the wiki.

Patrick
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-22 Thread Matt Gushee
On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 05:55:24PM +0200, Patrick Gundlach wrote:

  Arguments for a collection could be:
 
  1) Perhaps a comprehensive and classified collection of sample documents
 could spare others such time consuming trials.
 
 a) it is impossible to have a comprehensive collection of documents.
 There are too many faces ConTeXt has.
 
 b) It is hard to classify the documents. Two possibilities:

Yes, it is hard to classify them (and many other things) if you insist
on forcing them into a single, canonical hierarchy. But what if you
classified documents on the basis of keywords, or key phrases? Then
visitors could either search based on those phrases or browse a keyword
index.

Of course, that assumes your Wiki software has some means of managing
metadata.

And you could just make some arbitrary decisions about what materials 
should be included and how to classify them. Even a very imperfect
collection would be more helpful than none. And if people don't like
your collection, tell them to start their own. Isn't that what the Web
is all about?

-- 
Matt Gushee When a nation follows the Way,
Englewood, Colorado, USAHorses bear manure through
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   its fields;
http://www.havenrock.com/   When a nation ignores the Way,
Horses bear soldiers through
its streets.

--Lao Tzu (Peter Merel, trans.)
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[NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-22 Thread Patrick Gundlach
Hi Matt,

 b) It is hard to classify the documents. Two possibilities:

 Yes, it is hard to classify them (and many other things) if you insist
 on forcing them into a single, canonical hierarchy. 

Oh, I don't insist on anything; I just don't have clue how to start...

 But what if you classified documents on the basis of keywords, or
 key phrases? Then visitors could either search based on those
 phrases or browse a keyword index.

 Of course, that assumes your Wiki software has some means of managing
 metadata.

As far as I can see, it doesn't. But putting keywords on the pages
could help.

 And you could just make some arbitrary decisions about what materials 
 should be included and how to classify them. Even a very imperfect
 collection would be more helpful than none. 

Probably true.

 And if people don't like your collection, tell them to start their
 own. Isn't that what the Web is all about?

Right. Easy to change everything. 


Patrick
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-22 Thread jimarin
Hi all,

the idea of the keywords is very nice...

in

http://wiki.tcl.tk

you can search for a specific page using the url

like in

http://wiki.tcl.tk/file

even more, you can search all pages containing a word like in:

http://wiki.tcl.tk/menu*

perhaps it could be copied for ConTeXt wiki...don´t know how tclers do
theirs, but I guess they use tcl and they more or less can give some
advice.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers,

Jose Ignacio

 Hi Matt,

 b) It is hard to classify the documents. Two possibilities:

 Yes, it is hard to classify them (and many other things) if you insist
 on forcing them into a single, canonical hierarchy.

 Oh, I don't insist on anything; I just don't have clue how to start...

 But what if you classified documents on the basis of keywords, or
 key phrases? Then visitors could either search based on those
 phrases or browse a keyword index.

 Of course, that assumes your Wiki software has some means of managing
 metadata.

 As far as I can see, it doesn't. But putting keywords on the pages
 could help.

 And you could just make some arbitrary decisions about what materials
 should be included and how to classify them. Even a very imperfect
 collection would be more helpful than none.

 Probably true.

 And if people don't like your collection, tell them to start their
 own. Isn't that what the Web is all about?

 Right. Easy to change everything.


 Patrick
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 ConTeXt wiki: http://members.ping.de:8062
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[NTG-context] Re: ConTeXt-Wiki

2004-06-20 Thread Patrick Gundlach
Hello Holger and everybody,


 [starting ConTeXt wiki at] http://members.ping.de:8062/

 Finde ich eine gute Idee! Was mir (neben der Hilfe auf auf der Liste für 
 neue Probleme) am meisten bringt, und ich bisher etwas vermisse, sind 
 Beispiel-Dokumente (genauer: deren Quellcode).
[missing example documents and sources]


What kind of example documents do you think of? I guess that you know
that the magazines on the main ConTeXt site have their source code
included?

Patrick
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