Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-09 Thread KUROKI Yusuke
I have realized a slight typo was included in Fig3_5.txt.
The corrected one is attached to this mail.

Hans,
Japanese opening “ should be treated as opening 「, and
closing ” should be treated as closing 」, in the meaning of
spacing and line-breaking.

Thanks,
-- Yusuke.

2012/5/8 KUROKI Yusuke kur...@users.sourceforge.jp:
 I am attaching five test files including Fig. 3.1, 3.2, 3.3
 in http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ .  All files but
 Fig3_1-different-linebreaks.txt, the positions of linebreaks
 are the same as the examples.  In writing a manuscript,
 we will make linebreaks depending on its context, then
 the same results are required from the different sources,
 Fig3_1.txt and Fig3_1-different-linebreaks.txt  .

 Yusuke.


 (2012/05/08 0:54), Hans Hagen wrote:

 On 7-5-2012 15:17, KUROKI Yusuke wrote:

 What the timing you choose to post this message!
 Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had
 a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting.
 Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese
 typesetting in ConTeXt. It is note that hanzi option of
 ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from
 some Chinese typesetting custom.


 We need to define a handler similar to chinese and korean, but with
 japanese rules etc. I will make a basic setup so that we have a starting
 point.

 It would be handy to have some test files. For instance, in
 http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ the text in fig 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 which has mixed
 punctuation etc.

 Hans

 -
 Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
 Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
 -



 --
 黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke)
 kuroky(at)users.sourceforge.jp
 http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/



-- 
黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke)
日本語の表記では“漢字”や“仮名”だけで
なく,“ローマ字”や“アラビア数字”,さら
に“句読点”や“括弧類”などの記述記号を
用いる.
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-08 Thread ABE Noriyuki
Dear Henman-san,

   So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine?  
 Would this wowrk? 
With ConTeXt mark II (not mark IV), you can use ptex as the engine. Such 
support is included in W32TeX. (I don't know whether TeXLive 2011 
supports it.) You can type `texexec --eptex foo'.

If you want to try it, please read share/texmf/doc/context/context-w32.
txt and test-eptex.tex. (It is written in Japanese, but I think it does 
not matter for you.)

2012/05/07(Mon) 22:54:47, d.henman dhen...@gmail.com:
 
 Yusuke-san,
Thank you too for writing.  It seems like one or the other so far, platex 
 does not give good western style characters but is great for Japanese, which 
 the other option, simplefonts gives good western characters and according to 
 you bad Japanese charac
 ters.  Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont?
 
   So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine?  
 Would this wowrk? 
 
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 wiki : http://contextgarden.net
 
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Sincerely,
Noriyuki Abe
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-08 Thread KUROKI Yusuke

I am attaching five test files including Fig. 3.1, 3.2, 3.3
in http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ .  All files but
Fig3_1-different-linebreaks.txt, the positions of linebreaks
are the same as the examples.  In writing a manuscript,
we will make linebreaks depending on its context, then
the same results are required from the different sources,
Fig3_1.txt and Fig3_1-different-linebreaks.txt  .

Yusuke.

(2012/05/08 0:54), Hans Hagen wrote:

On 7-5-2012 15:17, KUROKI Yusuke wrote:


What the timing you choose to post this message!
Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had
a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting.
Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese
typesetting in ConTeXt. It is note that hanzi option of
ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from
some Chinese typesetting custom.


We need to define a handler similar to chinese and korean, but with japanese 
rules etc. I will make a basic setup so that we have a starting point.

It would be handy to have some test files. For instance, in 
http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ the text in fig 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 which has mixed 
punctuation etc.

Hans

-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-



--
黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke)
kuroky(at)users.sourceforge.jp
http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/
日本語の表記においては,漢字や仮名だけで
なく,ローマ字やアラビア数字,さらに句読
点や括弧類などの記述記号を用いる.これら
を組み合わせて表す日本語の文章では,表記
上における種々の問題がある.
日本語の表記においては,漢字や仮名だけでなく,
ローマ字やアラビア数字,さらに句読点や括弧類などの
記述記号を用いる.
これらを組み合わせて表す日本語の文章では,表記上に
おける種々の問題がある.
日本語の表記においては,漢字や仮名だけで
なく,ローマ字やアラビア数字,さらに句読
点や括弧類などの記述記号を用いる。これら
を組み合わせて表す日本語の文章では,表記
上における種々の問題がある。
日本語の表記においては、漢字や仮名だけで
なく、ローマ字やアラビア数字、さらに句読
点や括弧類などの記述記号を用いる。これら
を組み合わせて表す日本語の文章では、表記
上における種々の問題がある。
日本語の表記では“漢字”や”仮名”だけで
なく,“ローマ字”や“アラビア数字”,さら
に“句読点”や“括弧類”などの記述記号を
用いる.
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-08 Thread dalyoung
 
 Just a remark: for cjk one can best use the mkiv feature to combine 
 fonts; there are probably some examples of korean fonts mixed with e.g. 
 palatino or times in the email archive.



Here is a sample typescript file for mixed Korean and English fonts suggested 
by Hans.


Using this file, I can use Korean font for Korean and Palatino for English.
It works well.

 You can modify this file for your purpose.

Good luck!

Best regards,

Dalyoung



type-imp-unfonts.mkiv
Description: Binary data



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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-08 Thread KUROKI Yusuke

Hi, Hans,

 A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use?

It is a difficult question.  In Chinese or Korean case,
what they have chosen?  In Japanese, we need to prepare a
lot of characters for font set if they complete Adobe-Japan-1.5
or something. So, some font vendors publish the font sets
including only kana-region and latin/number-region (and
elementary school level kanjis).  In this case, script=kana
might be ok, but if the font set has all the characters
of Adobe-Japan-1.5 region, then script=kana is too impolite.

Moreover, in pTeX world, we use 'kanji' for this kind, but
we need to rethink 'kanji' is most appreciate or not.

Thanks,
-- Yusuke.


(2012/05/08 7:07), Hans Hagen wrote:

On 7-5-2012 15:12, S Barmeier wrote:

I am writing documents in English/Japanese.

If you want to include English text, you probably need to define your
own typescript (or use simplefonts), because most Japanese fonts have
terrible Latin fonts...

I can probably help you, if you tell me what exactly you need.

If you're just typesetting Japanese text, you will need
\setscript[hanzi] to enable linebreaks...

And the rest is done by Unicode magic: just type away between \starttext
and \stoptext


I uploaded a beta with preliminary Japanese script support.

\enabletrackers[scripts.analyzing]
% \enabletrackers[scripts.injections]
\enabletrackers[scripts.details]

% \definefont[testfont][heiseikakugostd-w5][script=kana,language=jan]
\definefont[testfont][heiseiminstd-w3] [script=kana,language=jan]

\testfont

\starttext

\startscript[nihongo]

\startlines
国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、
\hbox to 3em{国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、}
国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国
\hbox to 3em{国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国}
\stoplines

\stopscript

\stoptext

A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use?

More (simple) examples are needed in order to get all relations between 
categories done (so, currently we still use a copy of chinese but with already 
a few japanese specific inter-character issues done).

Hans


-
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
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http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-08 Thread hwitloc

Abe-san,
  thanks for the suggestion.  I will do the reading as you suggested.  It's 
always good to have backup for now, in case a clean method can't be worked out 
with Mark IV right away.

Regards


ABE Noriyuki aben...@math.sci.hokudai.ac.jp wrote:

 Dear Henman-san,
 
So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine?  
  Would this wowrk? 
 With ConTeXt mark II (not mark IV), you can use ptex as the engine. Such 
 support is included in W32TeX. (I don't know whether TeXLive 2011 
 supports it.) You can type `texexec --eptex foo'.
 
 If you want to try it, please read share/texmf/doc/context/context-w32.
 txt and test-eptex.tex. (It is written in Japanese, but I think it does 
 not matter for you.)
 
 2012/05/07(Mon) 22:54:47, d.henman dhen...@gmail.com:
  
  Yusuke-san,
 Thank you too for writing.  It seems like one or the other so far, 
  platex 
  does not give good western style characters but is great for Japanese, 
  which 
  the other option, simplefonts gives good western characters and according 
  to 
  you bad Japanese charac
  ters.  Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont?
  
So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine?  
  Would this wowrk? 
  
  ___
  If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to 
  the Wiki!
  
  maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-
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  webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
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  wiki : http://contextgarden.net
  
  ___
 
 
 Sincerely,
 Noriyuki Abe
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-08 Thread Hans Hagen

Hi Yusuke


  A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use?

It is a difficult question. In Chinese or Korean case,
what they have chosen? In Japanese, we need to prepare a
lot of characters for font set if they complete Adobe-Japan-1.5
or something. So, some font vendors publish the font sets
including only kana-region and latin/number-region (and
elementary school level kanjis). In this case, script=kana
might be ok, but if the font set has all the characters
of Adobe-Japan-1.5 region, then script=kana is too impolite.

Moreover, in pTeX world, we use 'kanji' for this kind, but
we need to rethink 'kanji' is most appreciate or not.


we use hangul for korean and hanzi for chinese so kanji sounds ok to me 
but in fact there a bit more to it, currently we have


\definescript[hangul]  [method=hangul]
\definescript[hanzi]   [method=hanzi]
\definescript[nihongo] [method=nihongo]

and these use default presets but as there can be be variants in spacing 
one can also define for instance


\definescript [myhangul] [hangul] [preset=mypreferences]

(not that there are such preferences defined now) and more key/values 
will be supported some day


so, shall we go for 'kanji' for the default setup? but 'japanese' could 
do as well as well because we can define synonyms


Hans


-
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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-07 Thread hwitloc

I live in Japan and fequently have the need to create documents in Japanese.
I would like to stop using WYSIWYG type word processing and switch over to TeX 
based systems.  I've been starting and am learning to use ConTeXt but I've 
still a long way to go.

I want to ask if anyone has already gone through this and has a How to publish 
a Japanese language document using  ConTeXt  or something like that, unless it 
is incredibly easy to do.  I've not tried it yet, but will tomorrow.  I wanted 
to write to the
 group first to see if this issue has already be solved or any other input.

My current platform environment is not ideal, but using Cygwin on a Japanese XP 
Windows box.  I've not had any problems with English documents.

Regards,
   Henman  (hwitloc)
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-07 Thread S Barmeier
I am writing documents in English/Japanese.

If you want to include English text, you probably need to define your
own typescript (or use simplefonts), because most Japanese fonts have
terrible Latin fonts...

I can probably help you, if you tell me what exactly you need.

If you're just typesetting Japanese text, you will need
\setscript[hanzi] to enable linebreaks...

And the rest is done by Unicode magic: just type away between \starttext
and \stoptext

Severin
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-07 Thread KUROKI Yusuke

Hello, Henman,

What the timing you choose to post this message!
Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had
a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting.
Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese
typesetting in ConTeXt.  It is note that hanzi option of
ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from
some Chinese typesetting custom.

In TeX world, for well-customized Japanese typesetting,
we usually use p(La)TeX developed by ASCII MEDIA WORKS Inc.
Since it has been already included TeX Live 2011 and now
Cygwin distribute texlive-collection packages officially,
you can use pTeX in Cygwin.

Another alternative is to use LuaTeX-ja package through LuaTeX.
The package is now distributed through CTAN and also upcoming
TeX Live.

Best,
-- Yusuke.


(2012/05/07 19:43), hwit...@gmail.com wrote:


I live in Japan and fequently have the need to create documents in Japanese.
I would like to stop using WYSIWYG type word processing and switch over to TeX 
based systems.  I've been starting and am learning to use ConTeXt but I've 
still a long way to go.

I want to ask if anyone has already gone through this and has a How to publish a 
Japanese language document using  ConTeXt  or something like that, unless it is 
incredibly easy to do.  I've not tried it yet, but will tomorrow.  I wanted to write to 
the
  group first to see if this issue has already be solved or any other input.

My current platform environment is not ideal, but using Cygwin on a Japanese XP 
Windows box.  I've not had any problems with English documents.

Regards,
Henman  (hwitloc)
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http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-07 Thread S Barmeier
Depending on your needs, p(La)TeX may be a quicker solution, if you can
afford to miss out on the benefits of ConTeXt. But that's just my opinion...

On 05/07/2012 10:17 PM, KUROKI Yusuke wrote:
 Hello, Henman,
 
 What the timing you choose to post this message!
 Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had
 a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting.
 Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese
 typesetting in ConTeXt.  It is note that hanzi option of
 ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from
 some Chinese typesetting custom.
 
 In TeX world, for well-customized Japanese typesetting,
 we usually use p(La)TeX developed by ASCII MEDIA WORKS Inc.
 Since it has been already included TeX Live 2011 and now
 Cygwin distribute texlive-collection packages officially,
 you can use pTeX in Cygwin.
 
 Another alternative is to use LuaTeX-ja package through LuaTeX.
 The package is now distributed through CTAN and also upcoming
 TeX Live.
 
 Best,
 -- Yusuke.
 
 
 (2012/05/07 19:43), hwit...@gmail.com wrote:

 I live in Japan and fequently have the need to create documents in
 Japanese.
 I would like to stop using WYSIWYG type word processing and switch
 over to TeX based systems.  I've been starting and am learning to use
 ConTeXt but I've still a long way to go.

 I want to ask if anyone has already gone through this and has a How
 to publish a Japanese language document using  ConTeXt  or something
 like that, unless it is incredibly easy to do.  I've not tried it yet,
 but will tomorrow.  I wanted to write to the
   group first to see if this issue has already be solved or any other
 input.

 My current platform environment is not ideal, but using Cygwin on a
 Japanese XP Windows box.  I've not had any problems with English
 documents.

 Regards,
 Henman  (hwitloc)
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-07 Thread KUROKI Yusuke
Hello, Henman-san,

 Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont?

It is not the problem of simplefont itself, I think.
The problem is the rules of hanzi option does not have such
a good quality in spacing and line-breaking for Japanese typesetting.

 can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine?  Would this wowrk?

Unfortunately no.  I could not describe the reason, but everyone
gives up before trying.

Cheers,
-- Yusuke.


(2012/05/07 21:54), d.henman wrote:
 Yusuke-san,
 Thank you too for writing.  It seems like one or the other so far, platex 
 does not give good western style characters but is great for Japanese, which 
 the other option, simplefonts gives good western characters and according to 
 you bad Japanese charac
 ters.  Is it the font or the spacing that is bad in simplefont?
 
So a question might be can ptex be used with ConTeXt? as the the engine?  
 Would this wowrk?


-- 
黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke)
kuroky(at)users.sourceforge.jp
http://ptetexwin.sourceforge.jp/
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-07 Thread Hans Hagen

On 7-5-2012 15:17, KUROKI Yusuke wrote:


What the timing you choose to post this message!
Several days ago, I, Japanese, firstly met Hans and had
a lecture about Japanese typography and typesetting.
Now it is the duration to prepare to think about Japanese
typesetting in ConTeXt. It is note that hanzi option of
ConTeXt is ugly for Japanese typesetting, it must come from
some Chinese typesetting custom.


We need to define a handler similar to chinese and korean, but with 
japanese rules etc. I will make a basic setup so that we have a starting 
point.


It would be handy to have some test files. For instance, in 
http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ the text in fig 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 which has 
mixed punctuation etc.


Hans

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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-07 Thread Hans Hagen

On 7-5-2012 15:12, S Barmeier wrote:

I am writing documents in English/Japanese.

If you want to include English text, you probably need to define your
own typescript (or use simplefonts), because most Japanese fonts have
terrible Latin fonts...

I can probably help you, if you tell me what exactly you need.

If you're just typesetting Japanese text, you will need
\setscript[hanzi] to enable linebreaks...

And the rest is done by Unicode magic: just type away between \starttext
and \stoptext


I uploaded a beta with preliminary Japanese script support.

\enabletrackers[scripts.analyzing]
% \enabletrackers[scripts.injections]
\enabletrackers[scripts.details]

% \definefont[testfont][heiseikakugostd-w5][script=kana,language=jan]
\definefont[testfont][heiseiminstd-w3]   [script=kana,language=jan]

\testfont

\starttext

\startscript[nihongo]

\startlines
 国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、
\hbox to 3em{国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、}
 国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国
\hbox to 3em{国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国}
\stoplines

\stopscript

\stoptext

A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use?

More (simple) examples are needed in order to get all relations between 
categories done (so, currently we still use a copy of chinese but with 
already a few japanese specific inter-character issues done).


Hans


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Asian Language Support

2012-05-07 Thread KUROKI Yusuke
Hi, Hans,

Tnank you for your quick try.
I will respond to you this evening (in your timezone, this afternoon),
because I don't have so much time to write sth in this morning.

2012/5/8 Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl:
 On 7-5-2012 15:12, S Barmeier wrote:

 I am writing documents in English/Japanese.

 If you want to include English text, you probably need to define your
 own typescript (or use simplefonts), because most Japanese fonts have
 terrible Latin fonts...

 I can probably help you, if you tell me what exactly you need.

 If you're just typesetting Japanese text, you will need
 \setscript[hanzi] to enable linebreaks...

 And the rest is done by Unicode magic: just type away between \starttext
 and \stoptext


 I uploaded a beta with preliminary Japanese script support.

 \enabletrackers[scripts.analyzing]
 % \enabletrackers[scripts.injections]
 \enabletrackers[scripts.details]

 % \definefont[testfont][heiseikakugostd-w5][script=kana,language=jan]
 \definefont[testfont][heiseiminstd-w3]   [script=kana,language=jan]

 \testfont

 \starttext

 \startscript[nihongo]

 \startlines
 国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、
 \hbox to 3em{国、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、『国』、}
 国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国
 \hbox to 3em{国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国:国}
 \stoplines

 \stopscript

 \stoptext

 A question for Yusuke: what script name should we use?

 More (simple) examples are needed in order to get all relations between
 categories done (so, currently we still use a copy of chinese but with
 already a few japanese specific inter-character issues done).


 Hans


 -
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
 -
 ___
 If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
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 maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
 http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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-- 
黒木 裕介 (KUROKI Yusuke)
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