Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Alan Braslau]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2017 16:01:27 +0100
Gour  wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 15:04:35 -0700
> Alan Braslau  wrote:
> 
> > This analysis is not quite correct.  
> 
> Thank you for your input.
> 
> > I use the "bibliography" subsystem as a general database tool,
> > defining glossaries, tables of crystallographic symmetries, catalogs
> > of diagrams, etc., so it is quite a bit more flexible than just to
> > create bibliographies.  
> 
> Does it mean there is no need for tools like JabRef, Zotero etc. if
> I'm staying within the scope of ConTeXt?

JabRef, Zotero are tools useful to manage bibliographic datasets. Their
use is not necessary, yet may be quite helpful, and even can be
customized at will, if desired.

Rik has pointed out a few bugs in the APA (author-year) formatting that
will be fixed as they get clearly reported. Even though I started out
with the APS (numbered) specification, I have been using APA more
thoroughly. Note that APS is purposely very compact (and limited).
Thomas seems to use the author-num scheme principally, and this appears
to be about the extent to which the ConTeXt system has been tested.

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Gour]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 15:04:35 -0700
Alan Braslau  wrote:

> This analysis is not quite correct.

Thank you for your input.

> I use the "bibliography" subsystem as a general database tool,
> defining glossaries, tables of crystallographic symmetries, catalogs
> of diagrams, etc., so it is quite a bit more flexible than just to
> create bibliographies.

Does it mean there is no need for tools like JabRef, Zotero etc. if I'm staying
within the scope of ConTeXt?


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the
fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.


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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Alan Braslau]

This analysis is not quite correct.

The mkiv bibliography system is not rigid at all, in fact it is
eminently configurable. However, the APA specification that is
programmed is rigidly adhered to, and it is up to the responsibility of
the user to configure any desired deviations.

The outstanding bugs that Rik refers to are either obscure special
cases, misuses of bibliography fields, or simply a special
configuration request. There may be some outstanding bugs in a system
that is still not fully tested under all conditions.

BibLaTeX introduces many incompatible and curiously defined fields. A
ConTeXt specification that uses them can be written, but I am not going
to do this as I see no point. BibLaTeX is a good example not to follow.

There are "plans" to write other humanities-focused standards, but
there needs to be some motivation and more importantly, a clearly
written standard.

I use the "bibliography" subsystem as a general database tool, defining
glossaries, tables of crystallographic symmetries, catalogs of
diagrams, etc., so it is quite a bit more flexible than just to create
bibliographies.

Alan

On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 16:44:32 -0500
Rik Kabel  wrote:

> On 2017-12-05 13:20, Gour wrote:
> > On Sun, 7 May 2017 23:33:30 +0200
> > r.erm...@hccnet.nl wrote:
> >  
> >> I recently finished a book project in multimarkdown, which I
> >> converted to LaTeX (I could not use ConTeXt because of its limited
> >> bibliographical functions in comparison to BibLatex).  
> > Just wonder, since I plan to embrace ConTeXt for a larger
> > educational-based project with the need to use bibliographical
> > functions, what did you prevent you to use it?
> >
> > Let me say that I'm fully familiar with neither BibLatex's
> > capabilities nor with the similar things in MkIV...
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Gour
> >  
> The utility of the new bibliography subsystem is a function of your 
> ability to work within the rigid structure of the APA reference 
> standards. Even with that, there are outstanding bugs that have not
> been addressed for many months.
> 
> If your publisher requires adherence to some other bibliographical 
> standards, or even variations of the APA standards, the new subsystem 
> may not suffice, or may not suffice without significant customization 
> that requires understanding of the source code.
> 
> (ConTeXt also has some support for the APS standard, but that is 
> secondary to APA in the implementation plan as so far revealed. There
> is no current plan of which I am aware to support more
> humanities-focused standards (Chicago, MHRA, Turabian, ...), although
> I would be happy to be proved wrong on that.)
> 
> For comparison, BibLaTeX supports tens of different standards and 
> variants, and has (or had a couple of years ago when I last used it)
> an active community of developers. To accomplish this, BibLaTeX
> relies on many added tags to BibTeX, thus forgoing compatibility with
> other systems.
> 
> The differences between the two derive from a few basic decisions
> taken by the ConTeXt developers. Among these, ConTeXt prefers to not
> add additional fields to BibTeX, and prefers to develop its own code
> without reliance on third-party software.
> 
> If your document requires bibliographic support beyond what ConTeXt 
> currently provides, there is another mechanism by which you can 
> incorporate other reference standards. You can write your document in 
> Pandoc  [1] Markdown and use any of the hundreds
> of reference standards and variants supported there through CSL 
>  [2]. Pandoc can create an XML result
> that can be transformed into a PDF by ConTeXt with the bibliography
> created according the the selected CSL format. This works well for
> documents that do not require significant customization, but may
> become cumbersome when you must fiddle with many individual objects.
> I have done this for a book-scale project as a proof of concept, and
> the bibliography handling works well. My work expands on that of
> Pablo Rodríguez, who addressed the method in a note to you last year 
>  [3].
> 
> [1] http://pandoc.org/
> [2] http://citationstyles.org/
> [3] https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context@ntg.nl/msg83581.html
> 

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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Rik Kabel]

On 2017-12-05 13:20, Gour wrote:

On Sun, 7 May 2017 23:33:30 +0200
r.erm...@hccnet.nl wrote:


I recently finished a book project in multimarkdown, which I
converted to LaTeX (I could not use ConTeXt because of its limited
bibliographical functions in comparison to BibLatex).

Just wonder, since I plan to embrace ConTeXt for a larger educational-based
project with the need to use bibliographical functions, what did you prevent
you to use it?

Let me say that I'm fully familiar with neither BibLatex's capabilities nor
with the similar things in MkIV...

Sincerely,
Gour

The utility of the new bibliography subsystem is a function of your 
ability to work within the rigid structure of the APA reference 
standards. Even with that, there are outstanding bugs that have not been 
addressed for many months.


If your publisher requires adherence to some other bibliographical 
standards, or even variations of the APA standards, the new subsystem 
may not suffice, or may not suffice without significant customization 
that requires understanding of the source code.


(ConTeXt also has some support for the APS standard, but that is 
secondary to APA in the implementation plan as so far revealed. There is 
no current plan of which I am aware to support more humanities-focused 
standards (Chicago, MHRA, Turabian, ...), although I would be happy to 
be proved wrong on that.)


For comparison, BibLaTeX supports tens of different standards and 
variants, and has (or had a couple of years ago when I last used it) an 
active community of developers. To accomplish this, BibLaTeX relies on 
many added tags to BibTeX, thus forgoing compatibility with other systems.


The differences between the two derive from a few basic decisions taken 
by the ConTeXt developers. Among these, ConTeXt prefers to not add 
additional fields to BibTeX, and prefers to develop its own code without 
reliance on third-party software.


If your document requires bibliographic support beyond what ConTeXt 
currently provides, there is another mechanism by which you can 
incorporate other reference standards. You can write your document in 
Pandoc  [1] Markdown and use any of the hundreds of 
reference standards and variants supported there through CSL 
 [2]. Pandoc can create an XML result that 
can be transformed into a PDF by ConTeXt with the bibliography created 
according the the selected CSL format. This works well for documents 
that do not require significant customization, but may become cumbersome 
when you must fiddle with many individual objects. I have done this for 
a book-scale project as a proof of concept, and the bibliography 
handling works well. My work expands on that of Pablo Rodríguez, who 
addressed the method in a note to you last year 
 [3].


[1] http://pandoc.org/
[2] http://citationstyles.org/
[3] https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context@ntg.nl/msg83581.html

--
Rik

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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Gour]

On Sun, 7 May 2017 23:33:30 +0200
r.erm...@hccnet.nl wrote:

> I recently finished a book project in multimarkdown, which I
> converted to LaTeX (I could not use ConTeXt because of its limited
> bibliographical functions in comparison to BibLatex).

Just wonder, since I plan to embrace ConTeXt for a larger educational-based
project with the need to use bibliographical functions, what did you prevent
you to use it?

Let me say that I'm fully familiar with neither BibLatex's capabilities nor
with the similar things in MkIV... 

Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
As a lamp in a windless place does not waver, so the transcendentalist,
whose mind is controlled, remains always steady in his meditation on the
transcendent self.


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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[r . ermers]

I recently finished a book project in multimarkdown, which I converted to LaTeX 
(I could not use ConTeXt because of its limited bibliographical functions in 
comparison to BibLatex).

It worked fine. If I remember correctly, I preferred multimarkdown over 
markdown for more possibilities regarding tables.

Robert

 

> Op 6 mei 2017, om 13:16 heeft Brian Ballsun-Stanton  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> For what it's worth, the folks I work with would find it very valuable. Our 
> team currently composes on drive and I have to kick things in various ways 
> via pandoc to get it into our ConTeXt server (multi-user editing with 
> floobits is ... kinda neat). Reducing complexity of that would be wonderful. 
> I also use the md mechanism in journal publishing 
> (https://github.com/sx-archipelagos/sxa 
> ) -- and would find it very useful 
> there.
> 
> (The other route that would be very useful here is any paperpile integration, 
> but that's rather outside the scope of this discussion). 
> 
> On 6 May 2017 at 18:28, Hans Hagen > 
> wrote:
> On 5/5/2017 9:54 PM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Thu, 4 May 2017, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> There's a really nice module for processing markdown:
> https://github.com/Witiko/markdown 
> that has been presented during the TUG meeting and is included in TeX
> Live.
> 
> This is a fork of luamark (by the author of pandoc). Wouldn't it be
> better to provide an interface around that? Is it simply providing a tex
> interface around luamark or are there any changes in the parser as well.
> 
> Any idea how it compares with the markdown parser in m-markdown already
> included in ConTeXt?
> 
> that one was written when i tested some other lua thing that was very 
> slow/inefficient .. irr some of the improved code was backported but as i 
> never use markdown i didn't keep track of it (maybe some day i'll pick up 
> that tread for mixed source coding or so)
> 
> Hans
> 
> 
> -
>   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>   Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl  | 
> www.pragma-pod.nl 
> -
> 
> ___
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> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl  / 
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> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ 
> 
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net 
> ___
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Brian Ballsun-Stanton Ph.D.
> FAIMS Project  - Data Architect 
>  
> br...@fedarch.org  0479 178 749 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Brian Ballsun-Stanton]

For what it's worth, the folks I work with would find it very valuable. Our
team currently composes on drive and I have to kick things in various ways
via pandoc to get it into our ConTeXt server (multi-user editing with
floobits is ... kinda neat). Reducing complexity of that would be
wonderful. I also use the md mechanism in journal publishing (
https://github.com/sx-archipelagos/sxa) -- and would find it very useful
there.

(The other route that would be very useful here is any paperpile
integration, but that's rather outside the scope of this discussion).

On 6 May 2017 at 18:28, Hans Hagen  wrote:

> On 5/5/2017 9:54 PM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 May 2017, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>>
>>> There's a really nice module for processing markdown:
>>> https://github.com/Witiko/markdown
>>> that has been presented during the TUG meeting and is included in TeX
>>> Live.
>>>
>>
>> This is a fork of luamark (by the author of pandoc). Wouldn't it be
>> better to provide an interface around that? Is it simply providing a tex
>> interface around luamark or are there any changes in the parser as well.
>>
>> Any idea how it compares with the markdown parser in m-markdown already
>> included in ConTeXt?
>>
>
> that one was written when i tested some other lua thing that was very
> slow/inefficient .. irr some of the improved code was backported but as i
> never use markdown i didn't keep track of it (maybe some day i'll pick up
> that tread for mixed source coding or so)
>
> Hans
>
>
> -
>   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>   Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
>
> 
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/list
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> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> 
> ___
>



-- 



Brian Ballsun-Stanton Ph.D.
FAIMS Project  - Data Architect

br...@fedarch.org 0479 178 749
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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Vít Novotný]

On Fri, May 05, 2017 at 11:12:41PM +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On 5 May 2017 at 21:54, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> > On Thu, 4 May 2017, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> >
> >> There's a really nice module for processing markdown:
> >> https://github.com/Witiko/markdown
> >> that has been presented during the TUG meeting and is included in TeX
> >> Live.
> >
> > This is a fork of luamark (by the author of pandoc). Wouldn't it be better
> > to provide an interface around that? Is it simply providing a tex interface
> > around luamark or are there any changes in the parser as well.
> >
> > Any idea how it compares with the markdown parser in m-markdown already
> > included in ConTeXt?

Hello,

some of the major differences between jgm/lunamark and Witiko/markdown
include:

 - Witiko/markdown supports syntax extensions that are currently not
   implemented in jgm/lunamark (iA Writer Content Blocks).

 - The output of Witiko/markdown consists of structural
   `\markdownRenderer...` macros that can be easily redefined by a user
   to produce arbitrary results. Example input:

- _item 1_
- [item 2](url)
- `item 3`

   Example output:

\markdownRendererUlBeginTight
\markdownRendererUlItem\markdownRendererEmphasis{item 
1}\markdownRendererUlItemEnd 
\markdownRendererUlItem\markdownRendererLink{item 
2}{url}{url}{}\markdownRendererUlItemEnd 
\markdownRendererUlItem\markdownRendererCodeSpan{item 
3}\markdownRendererUlItemEnd 
\markdownRendererUlEndTight

   In contrast, jgm/lunamark directly produces ConTeXt-specific markup.

 - Witiko/markdown does caching; processed documents and verbatim code
   blocks are stored in auxiliary files and these files are referenced
   from the conversion output. This is highly useful for debugging and
   for postprocessing the auxiliary files using external tools.
 
 - Witiko/markdown is stripped-down compared to jgm/lunamark, so that
   external dependencies such as Cosmo and Alt-getopt are unnecessary.

The `m-markdown.lua` seems like a heavily stripped-down version of
lunamark. Most importantly, the parser seems to recognize no syntax
extensions, so only Gruber's vanilla Markdown is supported.

P.S.: Witiko/markdown already has a ConTeXt interface (see `texdoc
markdown`, section 2.4). However, Mojca and I agreed that it would
likely benefit from additional syntactic sugar. Example document:

\usemodule[t][markdown]
\def\markdownOptionSomething{true}
\def\markdownRendererSomethingElse#1#2#3{\foo{#1}}
\starttext
\markdownInput{bar.md}
\startmarkdown
Some _Markdown_ text.
\stopmarkdown
\stoptext

The example document was taken from the slides introducing the package [1].

  [1]: https://github.com/Witiko/markdown/blob/slides-tug07/light.pdf

Best Regards,
Vít Novotný

> I'm CC-ing the author since I don't know answers to these questions,
> but it would indeed be nice to end up with one single good module
> rather than having two slightly different incompatible ones with the
> same name.
> 
> Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Mica Semrick]

It’s a plain text format for writing structured documents, based on formatting 
conventions from email and usenet. 

http://commonmark.org

-m

On May 6, 2017 8:42:46 AM PDT, John Culleton  wrote:
> 
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> From: "Hans Hagen" 
>Sent: Saturday, May 6, 2017 4:30 AM
>To: ntg-context@ntg.nl
>Subject: Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a
>
>ConTeXt interface?   
>On 5/5/2017 9:54 PM, Aditya Mahajan wrote: > On Thu, 4 May 2017, Mojca 
>Miklavec wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> There's a really nice module for
>processing 
>markdown: >> https://github.com/Witiko/markdown >> that has been
>presented 
>during the TUG meeting and is included in
>  
>  
> Pardon my ignorance but what is markdown?
> 
>  
> John  Culleton
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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[John Culleton]

 
  
  
  


 From: "Hans Hagen" 
Sent: Saturday, May 6, 2017 4:30 AM
To: ntg-context@ntg.nl
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a 
ConTeXt interface?   
 On 5/5/2017 9:54 PM, Aditya Mahajan wrote: > On Thu, 4 May 2017, Mojca 
Miklavec wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> There's a really nice module for processing 
markdown: >> https://github.com/Witiko/markdown >> that has been presented 
during the TUG meeting and is included in
  
  
 Pardon my ignorance but what is markdown?
 
  
 John  Culleton


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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/5/2017 9:54 PM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:

On Thu, 4 May 2017, Mojca Miklavec wrote:


Hi,

There's a really nice module for processing markdown:
https://github.com/Witiko/markdown
that has been presented during the TUG meeting and is included in TeX
Live.


This is a fork of luamark (by the author of pandoc). Wouldn't it be
better to provide an interface around that? Is it simply providing a tex
interface around luamark or are there any changes in the parser as well.

Any idea how it compares with the markdown parser in m-markdown already
included in ConTeXt?


that one was written when i tested some other lua thing that was very 
slow/inefficient .. irr some of the improved code was backported but as 
i never use markdown i didn't keep track of it (maybe some day i'll pick 
up that tread for mixed source coding or so)


Hans


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Mojca Miklavec]

On 5 May 2017 at 21:54, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Thu, 4 May 2017, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> There's a really nice module for processing markdown:
>> https://github.com/Witiko/markdown
>> that has been presented during the TUG meeting and is included in TeX
>> Live.
>
> This is a fork of luamark (by the author of pandoc). Wouldn't it be better
> to provide an interface around that? Is it simply providing a tex interface
> around luamark or are there any changes in the parser as well.
>
> Any idea how it compares with the markdown parser in m-markdown already
> included in ConTeXt?

I'm CC-ing the author since I don't know answers to these questions,
but it would indeed be nice to end up with one single good module
rather than having two slightly different incompatible ones with the
same name.

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 4 May 2017, Mojca Miklavec wrote:


Hi,

There's a really nice module for processing markdown:
https://github.com/Witiko/markdown
that has been presented during the TUG meeting and is included in TeX Live.


This is a fork of luamark (by the author of pandoc). Wouldn't it be better 
to provide an interface around that? Is it simply providing a tex 
interface around luamark or are there any changes in the parser as well.


Any idea how it compares with the markdown parser in m-markdown already 
included in ConTeXt?


Aditya
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[NTG-context] Module for Markdown: any volunteer to make a ConTeXt interface?

[Mojca Miklavec]

Hi,

There's a really nice module for processing markdown:
 https://github.com/Witiko/markdown
that has been presented during the TUG meeting and is included in TeX Live.

It theoretically works for ConTeXt (the output is perfectly usable),
but it needs a cleanup of the user interface to turn the options on
and off.

For example, it would be nice to use something like

\setupmarkdown
[fencedCode=true]

rather than

\def\markdownOptionFencedCode{true}

Is anyone willing to look into the code and help the author fix the interface?

(I can add it to our distribution if needed.)

Mojca
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