Re: [NTG-context] Re: Learning ConTeXt, typical hurdle
Gerben Wierda wrote: Apart from adapting, the \startitemize \stopitemize does not require me to have a \par at the end. That is also confusing. That's because it's a different construct (less variants in visualization and such); I understand that, but for someone new to ConTeXt, the behaviour of \whatever after a \definewhatever is unexpected. Especially so if one is used to LaTeX. The same is true for the non-implied start of a new column in \startable after a new row has been declared. My experience so far with ConTeXt is that it is probably possible to do all the things I want to do (though I still have a couple of open issues, see other posts) and I still have the feeling it is very powerful (I already had that when I first read the manual years ago). But the error messages I get or the behaviour I see when I make my beginner mistakes are less illuminating than the LaTeX parts and the behaviour is also not always friendly (e.g. the \NC needed after a new row in \starttable) or intuitive or the same across diffferent parts of ConTeXt (\startitemize versus \startwhatever). And it sometimes very difficult to find documentation (directory structure, \starttable). G ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] Re: Learning ConTeXt, typical hurdle
Hi Gerben, Due to a mistaken handling you roriginal mail I lost it :-( In that mail in the last part, I believe it was an example \component I saw, that you said \starttext ... \stoptext. You do not need this pair, The handling of starting and stopping is done by the \startproject ... \stopproject commands. In the product section I saw that you did not use the \startbodymatter ... \stopobodymatter. I think this is important, because in the frontmatter sectionheading handling is different, as is in the backmatter. here you go with an example I prepared: \startproject HBBbrev \enablemode[A-vier] \environment layout \product voorpag%Titlepage for the book \product beginmat %Frontmatter: Woord vooraf, Koppermaandag, %Boekbinderslied \startbodymatter \environment lo-3 \product gekart %Gekartonneerd in drie varianten \product bdz-rech%Bandzetter rechte rug ... \product technik %Werkwijzen en technieken \product appendix%Appendices: \stopbodymatter \product backmat %Backmatter: Impressum \nomorefiles \stopproject In my case many of the product-files contain a number of \components. I do hope, that this helps. Kind regards Willi Patrick Gundlach wrote: Hey Gerben, Now what turns out to solve this? Empty lines before \description and \stopdescriptions Things that were defined using \definedescription rely on \par as a delimiter. Though I like ConTeXt if I look at certain design aspects, behaviour that depends on whitespace before a command frightens me. Just the way it works :-) Nothing to worry about. Patrick ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] Re: Learning ConTeXt, typical hurdle
Patrick Gundlach wrote:
Hey Gerben,
Now what turns out to solve this? Empty lines before \description and
\stopdescriptions
Things that were defined using \definedescription rely on \par as a
delimiter.
Though I like ConTeXt if I look at certain design aspects, behaviour that
depends on whitespace before a command frightens me.
Just the way it works :-) Nothing to worry about.
there are only a few commands that depend on that
for descriptions, you can also use
\startwhatever {...}
\stopwhatever
in addition to
\whatever {...} ... \par
given that you defined whatever -)
Hans
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tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
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Re: [NTG-context] Re: Learning ConTeXt, typical hurdle
On 13 Mar 2005, at 23:27, h h extern wrote:
Gerben Wierda wrote:
Hey Gerben,
Now what turns out to solve this? Empty lines before \description
and
\stopdescriptions
Things that were defined using \definedescription rely on \par as a
delimiter.
Though I like ConTeXt if I look at certain design aspects, behaviour
that
depends on whitespace before a command frightens me.
Just the way it works :-) Nothing to worry about.
What this introduces is that the working of the ascii file depends on
its
layout. I can understand that an empty line does a \par (it is
convenient
after all) but I would see that kind of behaviour kept to a minimum.
That
is, now I have this 'invisible' element that is needed to close my
structure. It is something quite unexpected for me in a TeX workflow.
Different layout because of a missing empty line, fine. But an error
message and a halt really surprises me. Another part of a learning
curve
which if you want adoption you should try to avoid. But maybe it is
impossible to make ConTeXt more 'forgiving'.
The alternative is \startdescription\stopdescription which is
logically
nicer, but adds inconvenience to the typing/editing
IMO LaTeX here does a better user-interface job (not just because I
happen
to know LaTeX). Withing the description environment \item starts a new
item and the item ends with the start of another item or the end of
the
environment. Completely independent of the layout of the ascii file.
It would IMO be a lot friendlier if my \stopdescriptions and
\description
commands would take care of this and I could do things like:
\startdescriptions
\description{Foo} Bar bar bar
\description{Foo} Bar bar bar
\description{Foo} Bar bar bar
\stopdescriptions
without triggering an error.
this could be made working to some extend, but it would complicate the
code; this mechanism actually is implemented so that it can handle:
\starttext
\definedescription[test]
\test oeps whow \par
\test oeps
whow
\test {oeps} whow \par
\test {oeps} whow \par
\starttest {oeps} whow \stoptest
\stoptext
nowadays i tend to more verbose coding; anyhow, we can add something
\unprotect
\def\startdescriptions
{\dosingleempty\dostartdescriptions}
\def\dostartdescriptions[#1]%
{\begingroup
\def\item{\getvalue{#1}}%
\let\dostoppairdescription \donothing
\let\@@description \dostartpairdescription
\let\@@startsomedescription\dostartsomedescription}
\def\stopdescriptions
{\dostoppairdescription
\endgroup}
\def\dostartpairdescription[#1][#2]%
{\dostoppairdescription
\def\dostoppairdescription{\@@stopdescription{#1}}%
\bgroup
\def\currentdescription{#1}%
\doifelse{\descriptionparameter{\s!do\c!state}}\v!start
{\@@makedescription{#1}[#2]{}}
{\@@makedescription{#1}[#2]}}
\def\dostartsomedescription % #1[#2]#3%
{\bgroup
\@@makedescription} % {#1}[#2]{#3}}
\protect
\starttext
\definedescription[test]
\startdescriptions
\test{Foo} Bar bar bar
\test{Foo} Bar bar bar
\test{Foo} Bar bar bar
\stopdescriptions
\startdescriptions
\starttest{Foo} Bar bar bar \stoptest
\starttest{Foo} Bar bar bar \stoptest
\starttest{Foo} Bar bar bar \stoptest
\stopdescriptions
\startdescriptions[test]
\item{Foo} Bar bar bar
\item{Foo} Bar bar bar
\item{Foo} Bar bar bar
\stopdescriptions
\stoptext
for those who have problems adapting; so, what does the general
context public think of such an extension?
Apart from adapting, the \startitemize \stopitemize does not require me
to have a \par at the end. That is also confusing.
G
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[NTG-context] Re: Learning ConTeXt, typical hurdle
Hey Gerben, Now what turns out to solve this? Empty lines before \description and \stopdescriptions Things that were defined using \definedescription rely on \par as a delimiter. Though I like ConTeXt if I look at certain design aspects, behaviour that depends on whitespace before a command frightens me. Just the way it works :-) Nothing to worry about. Patrick -- ConTeXt wiki: http://contextgarden.net ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] Re: Learning ConTeXt, typical hurdle
Hey Gerben,
Now what turns out to solve this? Empty lines before \description and
\stopdescriptions
Things that were defined using \definedescription rely on \par as a
delimiter.
Though I like ConTeXt if I look at certain design aspects, behaviour
that
depends on whitespace before a command frightens me.
Just the way it works :-) Nothing to worry about.
What this introduces is that the working of the ascii file depends on its
layout. I can understand that an empty line does a \par (it is convenient
after all) but I would see that kind of behaviour kept to a minimum. That
is, now I have this 'invisible' element that is needed to close my
structure. It is something quite unexpected for me in a TeX workflow.
Different layout because of a missing empty line, fine. But an error
message and a halt really surprises me. Another part of a learning curve
which if you want adoption you should try to avoid. But maybe it is
impossible to make ConTeXt more 'forgiving'.
The alternative is \startdescription\stopdescription which is logically
nicer, but adds inconvenience to the typing/editing
IMO LaTeX here does a better user-interface job (not just because I happen
to know LaTeX). Withing the description environment \item starts a new
item and the item ends with the start of another item or the end of the
environment. Completely independent of the layout of the ascii file.
It would IMO be a lot friendlier if my \stopdescriptions and \description
commands would take care of this and I could do things like:
\startdescriptions
\description{Foo} Bar bar bar
\description{Foo} Bar bar bar
\description{Foo} Bar bar bar
\stopdescriptions
without triggering an error.
G
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[NTG-context] Re: Learning ConTeXt, typical hurdle
Hello Gerben, [...] Things that were defined using \definedescription rely on \par as a delimiter. What this introduces is that the working of the ascii file depends on its layout. I completely agree with you here. This description - \par thing has been on the mailinglist a couple times. But: that is TeX (you know that, but I wanted to point this out again). TeX is really sensitive to source layout. LaTeX is doing a good job to remove a lot of dependencies, but does not do a perfect job. In some places, ConTeXt is a bit worse. But you will come across this only on some older definitions like \definedescription. Patrick -- ConTeXt wiki: http://contextgarden.net ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
