Re: [NTG-context] This mailing list is not DKIM (DMARC) compatible

2019-09-25 Thread Taco Hoekwater 


> On 16 Sep 2019, at 15:34, Gerben Wierda  wrote:
> 
> In addition: Lists should keep the From address, the Subject, and the Message 
> totally unchanged. They should add a Sender header to indicate their relay 
> role, and set at least the List-Id and List-Unsubscribe headers for mailbox 
> rules and subscription management.

Well, we leave From alone, add Sender, List-Id, and List-Unsubscribe.

That leaves Subject and Body, but I agree with Hraban in that I like both those 
features. I could turn
munging on and see what happens?

Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] This mailing list is not DKIM (DMARC) compatible

2019-09-21 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm 

> Am 2019-09-21 um 18:53 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm :
> 
> If we would *not* change the sender address to the list’s, there would be a 
> problem. Namely what you mention, that we would send mails on the sender’s 
> behalf.

Sorry, here I wrote nonsense. We change the sender, of course.
I like to have it this way, but there *is* a problem, and I don’t know enough 
about mail headers…

Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] This mailing list is not DKIM (DMARC) compatible

2019-09-21 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm 
My own mailserver (mail.fiee.net) uses SPF and DKIM, and I have no problems 
with this or other lists.
Maybe I configured it too tolerant, but the only thing server check tools find 
faulty is that I can't offer DANE (my DNS access is not sufficient).

Thus I see no reason to panic.

If we would *not* change the sender address to the list’s, there would be a 
problem. Namely what you mention, that we would send mails on the sender’s 
behalf.

I really like to have the list’s name in the subject line, and also think that 
the list footer makes sense. What doesn’t make sense is to leave it in your 
reply.

Best, Hraban


> Am 2019-09-17 um 10:21 schrieb Gerben Wierda :
> 
> Mailman already has settings for this, but one is advised not to use the 
> ‘munging’ option.
> 
> My guess is that if you leave the change of body in place, participants that 
> are sending through mail servers that support SPF will fail (because of the 
> resend by the list) and support for DKIM will fail (because of the changed 
> body)
> 
> You will still receive the 'list-forwarded’ messages from senders who do not 
> use DMARC, you will start missing those that do. It is unlikely that you will 
> suddenly stop receiving all messages from the list (e.g. mine will go through 
> as I haven’t yet turned DMARC fully on, but as soon as I do, I will be unable 
> to send messages via this list to those at the receiving end that do DMARC 
> checking, and that holds for more and more users.).
> 
> The sender’s email manager will also get unnecessary reports of the list 
> server illegally sending messages on their behalf.
> 
> Most list these days that I am on already have removed the footer, and leave 
> the Subject: line alone. Sorting can be done on other headers than Subject.
> 
> Using dmarc_moderation_action (mailman setting) means that you start to munge 
> headers etc, which is not optimal:
> 
> https://begriffs.com/posts/2018-09-18-dmarc-mailing-list.html writes about 
> munging:
> However this is a poor use of email, since it’s misrepresenting who 
> originated the message. Also email clients often have a degraded interface 
> with respect to the Reply-To header. It’s usually not visible in the message 
> list, not used for sorting, and not added to the address book.
> 
> But whatever you guys do, make sure you are DMARC-proof to prevent running 
> into these issues later on. Either munge, or remove the footer and the change 
> of Subject (I would prefer the latter).
> 
> Gerben Wierda
> Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture
> Mastering ArchiMate
> Architecture for Real Enterprises at InfoWorld
> On Slippery Ice at EAPJ
> 
>> On 16 Sep 2019, at 22:46, Henri Menke  wrote:
>> 
>> I think this is better reported to Mailman.  I'm not sure to what extent list
>> administrators have control over DKIM settings.
>> https://gitlab.com/groups/mailman/-/issues
>> 
>> On 9/17/19 1:34 AM, Gerben Wierda wrote:
>>> In addition: Lists should keep the From address, the Subject, and the 
>>> Message totally unchanged. They should add a Sender header to indicate 
>>> their relay role, and set at least the List-Id and List-Unsubscribe headers 
>>> for mailbox rules and subscription management.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Gerben Wierda
>>> Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
>>> Mastering ArchiMate 
>>> Architecture for Real Enterprises 
>>>  at 
>>> InfoWorld
>>> On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ
>>> 
 On 16 Sep 2019, at 15:21, Gerben Wierda >>> > wrote:
 
 The footer that is added to each message in this list is not DKIM (and 
 thus DMARC) compatible. DKIM requires the ability to create a signature on 
 a set of headers and the body. By changing the body, the DKIM signature 
 fails and the resulting messages sent by the mail list may in the future 
 be blocked by  more and more mail servers.
 
 Gerben Wierda
 Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
 Mastering ArchiMate 
 Architecture for Real Enterprises 
  at 
 InfoWorld
 On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ

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Re: [NTG-context] This mailing list is not DKIM (DMARC) compatible

2019-09-17 Thread Gerben Wierda 
Mailman already has settings for this, but one is advised not to use the 
‘munging’ option.

My guess is that if you leave the change of body in place, participants that 
are sending through mail servers that support SPF will fail (because of the 
resend by the list) and support for DKIM will fail (because of the changed body)

You will still receive the 'list-forwarded’ messages from senders who do not 
use DMARC, you will start missing those that do. It is unlikely that you will 
suddenly stop receiving all messages from the list (e.g. mine will go through 
as I haven’t yet turned DMARC fully on, but as soon as I do, I will be unable 
to send messages via this list to those at the receiving end that do DMARC 
checking, and that holds for more and more users.).

The sender’s email manager will also get unnecessary reports of the list server 
illegally sending messages on their behalf.

Most list these days that I am on already have removed the footer, and leave 
the Subject: line alone. Sorting can be done on other headers than Subject.

Using dmarc_moderation_action (mailman setting) means that you start to munge 
headers etc, which is not optimal:

https://begriffs.com/posts/2018-09-18-dmarc-mailing-list.html 
 writes about 
munging:
However this is a poor use of email, since it’s misrepresenting who originated 
the message. Also email clients often have a degraded interface with respect to 
the Reply-To header. It’s usually not visible in the message list, not used for 
sorting, and not added to the address book.

But whatever you guys do, make sure you are DMARC-proof to prevent running into 
these issues later on. Either munge, or remove the footer and the change of 
Subject (I would prefer the latter).

Gerben Wierda
Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
Mastering ArchiMate 
Architecture for Real Enterprises 
 at InfoWorld
On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ

> On 16 Sep 2019, at 22:46, Henri Menke  wrote:
> 
> I think this is better reported to Mailman.  I'm not sure to what extent list
> administrators have control over DKIM settings.
> https://gitlab.com/groups/mailman/-/issues
> 
> On 9/17/19 1:34 AM, Gerben Wierda wrote:
>> In addition: Lists should keep the From address, the Subject, and the 
>> Message totally unchanged. They should add a Sender header to indicate their 
>> relay role, and set at least the List-Id and List-Unsubscribe headers for 
>> mailbox rules and subscription management.
>> 
>> 
>> Gerben Wierda
>> Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
>> Mastering ArchiMate 
>> Architecture for Real Enterprises 
>>  at 
>> InfoWorld
>> On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ
>> 
>>> On 16 Sep 2019, at 15:21, Gerben Wierda >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> The footer that is added to each message in this list is not DKIM (and thus 
>>> DMARC) compatible. DKIM requires the ability to create a signature on a set 
>>> of headers and the body. By changing the body, the DKIM signature fails and 
>>> the resulting messages sent by the mail list may in the future be blocked 
>>> by  more and more mail servers.
>>> 
>>> Gerben Wierda
>>> Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
>>> Mastering ArchiMate 
>>> Architecture for Real Enterprises 
>>>  at 
>>> InfoWorld
>>> On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to 
>>> the Wiki!
>>> 
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl  / 
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ___
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to 
>> the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
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>> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___
>> 
>

Re: [NTG-context] This mailing list is not DKIM (DMARC) compatible

2019-09-16 Thread Henri Menke 
I think this is better reported to Mailman.  I'm not sure to what extent list
administrators have control over DKIM settings.
https://gitlab.com/groups/mailman/-/issues

On 9/17/19 1:34 AM, Gerben Wierda wrote:
> In addition: Lists should keep the From address, the Subject, and the Message 
> totally unchanged. They should add a Sender header to indicate their relay 
> role, and set at least the List-Id and List-Unsubscribe headers for mailbox 
> rules and subscription management.
> 
> 
> Gerben Wierda
> Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
> Mastering ArchiMate 
> Architecture for Real Enterprises 
>  at 
> InfoWorld
> On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ
> 
>> On 16 Sep 2019, at 15:21, Gerben Wierda > > wrote:
>>
>> The footer that is added to each message in this list is not DKIM (and thus 
>> DMARC) compatible. DKIM requires the ability to create a signature on a set 
>> of headers and the body. By changing the body, the DKIM signature fails and 
>> the resulting messages sent by the mail list may in the future be blocked by 
>>  more and more mail servers.
>>
>> Gerben Wierda
>> Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
>> Mastering ArchiMate 
>> Architecture for Real Enterprises 
>>  at 
>> InfoWorld
>> On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ
>>
>> ___
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to 
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl  / 
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
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> 
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Re: [NTG-context] This mailing list is not DKIM (DMARC) compatible

2019-09-16 Thread Gerben Wierda 
In addition: Lists should keep the From address, the Subject, and the Message 
totally unchanged. They should add a Sender header to indicate their relay 
role, and set at least the List-Id and List-Unsubscribe headers for mailbox 
rules and subscription management.


Gerben Wierda
Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
Mastering ArchiMate 
Architecture for Real Enterprises 
 at InfoWorld
On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ

> On 16 Sep 2019, at 15:21, Gerben Wierda  wrote:
> 
> The footer that is added to each message in this list is not DKIM (and thus 
> DMARC) compatible. DKIM requires the ability to create a signature on a set 
> of headers and the body. By changing the body, the DKIM signature fails and 
> the resulting messages sent by the mail list may in the future be blocked by  
> more and more mail servers.
> 
> Gerben Wierda
> Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
> Mastering ArchiMate 
> Architecture for Real Enterprises 
>  at 
> InfoWorld
> On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ
> 
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___

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[NTG-context] This mailing list is not DKIM (DMARC) compatible

2019-09-16 Thread Gerben Wierda 
The footer that is added to each message in this list is not DKIM (and thus 
DMARC) compatible. DKIM requires the ability to create a signature on a set of 
headers and the body. By changing the body, the DKIM signature fails and the 
resulting messages sent by the mail list may in the future be blocked by  more 
and more mail servers.

Gerben Wierda
Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture 
Mastering ArchiMate 
Architecture for Real Enterprises 
 at InfoWorld
On Slippery Ice  at EAPJ

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