Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-03-04 Thread Khaled Hosny
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 08:31:22PM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
 - The deciding moment when some of these ugly tricks have been thrown
 away was when we realized that if you do add those tricks, there is no
 way to print the grave accent. (Grave accent will be automatically
 converted to the same comma that you get in quotation marks.) In
 good old TeX the grave accent (`) and the character that you get when
 you type ` are at two different slots. In Unicode-encoded fonts that's
 not doable. This means that if one wants to enable the `` trick then
 there's no way to allow composite characters with grave accent or the
 character ` in typewriter font. In most cases that is not a problem
 since Unicode fonts usually support a wide range of characters, but I
 already had to use a character not present in Unicode. And that was
 not doable until the hack has been removed.

Now, I feel there is some thing wrong here, (`) is not an accent
(despite it misleading Unicode name), but rather a spacing character, so
typing n` to get ǹ is wrong; you should use (̀ ) instead (this is
U+0300), since the later is the combining grave accent while the former
is a spacing character.

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-03-04 Thread Khaled Hosny
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:10:07AM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
 (actually one of my reasons for never using `` '' is that it looks
 quite ugly in the source as the second pair is not tilted and i hate
 ugly looking sources)

Since I'm using Inconsolata while reading this email, I had hard time
understanding why it looks OK here ;)

(I know it is an old thread, but I just started reading it now)

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-03-04 Thread Khaled Hosny
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 03:42:11PM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:58, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
 
  I'm not sure that I understand the
  problem with ` (GRAVE ACCENT) that cannot be solved with a macro or by a
  setting that disactivates the production of ‘ (LEFT SINGLE QUOTE MARK).
 
 Try to process the following with XeTeX (I would be grateful if anyone
 knew how to solve that particular problem; also note that some
 hyphenation patterns don't work when ' is replaced by proper quotation
 mark):
 
 \font\a=[lmroman10-regular]
 \font\b=[lmroman10-regular]:mapping=tex-text
 \starttext
 \a ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}\par
 \b ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}
 \stoptext

\def\textgrave{\char0300 }
\font\a=[lmroman10-regular]
\font\b=[lmroman10-regular]:mapping=tex-text
\starttext
\a ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}\par
\b ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}
\stoptext


Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-02-03 Thread Wolfgang Schuster
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Aditya Mahajan adit...@umich.edu wrote:

 % is problmeatic because you need a character to start a comment
 and there is AFAIK no way to get the same result from % with a macro

 \comment{something}

better something like this where the comment ends at the end of the line

\bgroup \obeylines

\gdef\texcomment%
  {\begingroup%
   \obeylines%
   \dotextcomment}

\gdef\dotextcomment#1
  {\endgroup}

\egroup

\starttext

Auf%
lage

Auf\texcomment test
lage

\stoptext

Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-20 Thread Hans Hagen

On 20-1-2010 8:04, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

The worst I find are the Macs with French keyboards,


Let's be honest ... any French keyboard ... :)


Don't forget macbook keyboards with dvorak mapping ;)


and if i remember right mojca has a slovenian dvorak with some missing 
keytops replaced by spares with other symbols


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-20 Thread Hans Hagen

On 20-1-2010 8:28, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

On Wednesday 20 January 2010 08:04:43 Taco Hoekwater wrote:

The problem is that all the latex and plain tex books promote
the use of `` and '' and people that already use TeX are unlikely
to change their habits (and most will not read the context manual
as thoroughly as they should).



This is my concern. Whereas I do prefer \quotation{} being functionally
logical, after all the spirit of TeX, I also like unicode generalizations
(such as ± for \pm). Nevertheless, hard core TeX users as well as converts
from LaTeX *expect* ``'', --, ---, ..., etc. to work in ConTeXt. I assume that
the present discussion is useful and not simply controversial.


one can always write small script that converts `` '' to \quotation

(actually one of my reasons for never using `` '' is that it looks quite 
ugly in the source as the second pair is not tilted and i hate ugly 
looking sources)



I ignore the mechanisms behind the different implementations (macro, fonts,
catcar, ...) and the problems that arise.

Concerning typesetting source code, I would suggest something as simple as
suspending ALL such tricks within \text{} and \starttyping\stoptyping (perhaps
parametrized). One could also define something like \shellescape{}, analogous
to \quotation{}, to typeset `echo hello world` and even \string{} to typeset
string or 'string', according to the programming language initialized.


indeed this backtick is to be dealt with by a command as it differs per 
operating system



What I also find disturbing is that *some* of these conventions are retained,
but not all.


in principle we can even drop $ and  as we now have primitives for them 
and # can go also at some point (but unfortunately tex is somewhat 
sensitive for #s passed in arguments


Hans


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 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-20 Thread Alan BRASLAU
On Wednesday 20 January 2010 10:10:07 Hans Hagen wrote:
 in principle we can even drop $ and  as we now have primitives for them 

Can you explain? I ignore the primatives for $E=mc^2$.

Whereas Mojca regrets $$ $$, I have long prefered \startformula\stopformula 
(or \begin{equation}\end{equation} if you like, as I sometimes still need to 
use LaTeX). 

I also much prefer
\framed {\relax
no leading space}
to
\framed {%
no leading space}
yet I do think that it would be a very bad idea to drop %

As to ugly source, I do agree that ``'' is not as pretty as “” (or is it ‟”, I 
never know)

Character: “ U+201C
Name: LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK
Annotations and Cross References
Alias names: double turned comma quotation mark
Notes: this is the preferred character (as opposed to ‟ U+201F DOUBLE HIGH-
REVERSED-9 QUOTATION MARK)
See also:
 U+0022 QUOTATION MARK
❝ U+275D HEAVY DOUBLE TURNED COMMA QUOTATION MARK ORNAMENT
〝 U+301D REVERSED DOUBLE PRIME QUOTATION MARK
General Character Properties
Block: General Punctuation
Unicode category: Punctuation, Initial Quote
Various Useful Representations
UTF-8: 0xE2 0x80 0x9C
UTF-16: 0x201C
C octal escaped UTF-8: \342\200\234
XML decimal entity: #8220;

Character: ‟ U+201F
Name: DOUBLE HIGH-REVERSED-9 QUOTATION MARK
Annotations and Cross References
Alias names: double reversed comma quotation mark
Notes: has same semantic as “ U+201C LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK, but differs in 
appearance
General Character Properties
Block: General Punctuation
Unicode category: Punctuation, Initial Quote
Various Useful Representations
UTF-8: 0xE2 0x80 0x9F
UTF-16: 0x201F
C octal escaped UTF-8: \342\200\237
XML decimal entity: #8223;

Furthermore, some editors such as MS-Word break the source, substituting
RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK (Character: ’ U+2019) for
APOSTROPHE (Character: ' U+0027)
for some insane reason cited as the preferred character to be used for 
apostrophe. 

All of this is to stress that, whatever the new functionality added to 
ConTeXt, the traditional TeX shorthands remain *very* useful for lots of users 
and I suggest that they be retained. I'm not sure that I understand the 
problem with ` (GRAVE ACCENT) that cannot be solved with a macro or by a 
setting that disactivates the production of ‘ (LEFT SINGLE QUOTE MARK).

I see from LaTeX that: \`{} is a grave accent
works, as does: \`\ is a grave accent
but not: {\`} is a grave accent
or: \`  is a grave accent

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-20 Thread Taco Hoekwater

Hi Alan,

Alan BRASLAU wrote:

Furthermore, some editors such as MS-Word break the source, substituting
RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK (Character: ’ U+2019) for
APOSTROPHE (Character: ' U+0027)
for some insane reason cited as the preferred character to be used for 
apostrophe. 



From the Unicode specification:

0027 ' APOSTROPHE
   = apostrophe-quote (1.0)
   = APL quote
   * neutral (vertical) glyph with mixed usage
   * 2019 is preferred for apostrophe
   * preferred characters in English for paired
 quotation marks are 2018  2019

So I think Word actually does the right thing (assuming you
can live with its auto-correct features in the first place)

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-20 Thread Mojca Miklavec
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:58, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

 I'm not sure that I understand the
 problem with ` (GRAVE ACCENT) that cannot be solved with a macro or by a
 setting that disactivates the production of ‘ (LEFT SINGLE QUOTE MARK).

Try to process the following with XeTeX (I would be grateful if anyone
knew how to solve that particular problem; also note that some
hyphenation patterns don't work when ' is replaced by proper quotation
mark):

\font\a=[lmroman10-regular]
\font\b=[lmroman10-regular]:mapping=tex-text
\starttext
\a ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}\par
\b ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}
\stoptext

You can try to start playing with modifications of
texmf/fonts/misc/xetex/fontmapping/base/tex-text.map.

 I see from LaTeX that: \`{} is a grave accent
 works, as does: \`\ is a grave accent
 but not: {\`} is a grave accent
 or: \`  is a grave accent

This is true for (pdf)latex. Have you tried the same with XeLaTeX
using any Unicode font (not the default cmr)? I wanted to try it out,
but I don't know how to do it.

Side note: This is unrelated to the problem that I have mentioned.
What you are quoting is a matter of input handling. The problem we
want to solve has to do with font handling.

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Mojca Miklavec
Let me be a bit more nationalistic and exaggerate a bit for a moment
(just in order to explain why I find the idea of using `` a bad one;
do not take the text below too seriously or personally):

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 14:15, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
 On Monday 18 January 2010 13:50:25 Taco Hoekwater wrote:
 views63 wrote:
 
  I'm using `` complex analysis'' the output is wrong.

 Not really. We (Hans and I) would say that it is now finally right. ;)

 This is true of many standard TeX ligatures (is this the right word here?)
 such as ... (\ldots, \dots also works),  (\og),  (\fg), ` (\glqq),
 ' (\grqq), ~ (unbreakable space), etc.

 This can be a bit disturbing for experienced TeX users.

- I agree. 80% of Slovenian (La)TeX users use US quotation marks just
because they have read some TeX tutorial about how to use `` and ''.
- Knuth only thought of English quotation marks when implementing the
ugly trick. There is no simple way for opening quotation marks („)
for Slovenian/German and most probably for quite some other languages
as well. So ``'' notation is useless for a big fraction of users
anyway. (The only alternative is probably \glqq  friends. You can use
a similar one in ConTeXt as well, but I tend to forget exact names.)
- On Slovenian keyboard it's pretty complicated to type `. Let's take
Mac (but it's equally complicated on Windows). One needs to press
Alt++space. This means 2x3=6 strokes to get the character “ typeset.
The character “ itself only takes a single stroke on Mac/Slo. On
Mac/US Int. it's just Alt+[ (2 keystrokes) to get it, so not that bad
either.
- When using \quotation{} it's easy to change the mind about what
quotation marks to use (Slovenian/German use two different sets) and
the proper layout will be used based on the language being used (comes
handy when mixing languages inside the document). Which is great - no
need to think which one to use.
- The deciding moment when some of these ugly tricks have been thrown
away was when we realized that if you do add those tricks, there is no
way to print the grave accent. (Grave accent will be automatically
converted to the same comma that you get in quotation marks.) In
good old TeX the grave accent (`) and the character that you get when
you type ` are at two different slots. In Unicode-encoded fonts that's
not doable. This means that if one wants to enable the `` trick then
there's no way to allow composite characters with grave accent or the
character ` in typewriter font. In most cases that is not a problem
since Unicode fonts usually support a wide range of characters, but I
already had to use a character not present in Unicode. And that was
not doable until the hack has been removed.

In the good old days the ugly tricks have been there mostly in order
to compensate for lack of Unicode  accents on keyboards. Nowadays the
limitation of encodings has (almost) gone.

You can easily change the behaviour of ConTeXt by modifying font
features if you insist in using ``''.

 OK, \quotation{} is cleaner and of course using unicode
 characters may be even more readable, sometimes.

 I have very mixed feelings, as I know how to type ...
 but I never can recall the keyboard gymnastics necessary
 to get this in unicode.

That's why I always use \quotation{}.

 (Things are even worse on a Mac, as the standard keyboard
 layout is missing lots of important characters.)

I have no idea which keyboard you use, but US International is pretty
rich (the problem is lack of some legend on keyboard itself), on the
other hand it's easy enough to make your own layout.

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Aditya Mahajan

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Mojca Miklavec wrote:


This can be a bit disturbing for experienced TeX users.


- The deciding moment when some of these ugly tricks have been thrown
away was when we realized that if you do add those tricks, there is no
way to print the grave accent. (Grave accent will be automatically
converted to the same comma that you get in quotation marks.)


This is really important when your are trying to typeset source code. 
Simple things like


  a = 'string'
  b = `some system command`

gets printed as

  a = ‛string‛
  b = ‘some system command‘

Depending on which font you are using, this change can be very confusing.

Aditya___
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Alan BRASLAU
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 20:31:22 Mojca Miklavec wrote:
 Let me be a bit more nationalistic and exaggerate a bit for a moment
 (just in order to explain why I find the idea of using `` a bad one;
 do not take the text below too seriously or personally):

I think that the easiest would be for everyone to use English :)
That's my bit for Imperialism!

As I write in a mixture of languages, I like to use \quotation{}.
But long-time TeX users have habits that die hard,
and just as we expect fl to yield fl, we also learn many bad tricks
such as ``'' and ...

 - The deciding moment when some of these ugly tricks have been thrown
 away was when we realized that if you do add those tricks, there is no
 way to print the grave accent.

How about {\`} (untested)

You probably are right to favor \quotation{}, \dots, etc.
and to go unicode. But is it really necessary and a good idea
to break with TeX culture? I guess so. What about $ $ (and $$ $$)?
How about % (\%)? Not to mention 

 I have no idea which keyboard you use, but US International is pretty
 rich (the problem is lack of some legend on keyboard itself), on the
 other hand it's easy enough to make your own layout.

My own computers are US International. However, I often use other
computers having different layouts, many of which I cannot change.
The worst I find are the Macs with French keyboards, as when I use them,
I always have to remember how to find \ and {}

The bottom line is that we need to document these differences
towards the very beginning of the manual, where ConTeXt is
identified as a form of TeX.

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Wolfgang Schuster

Am 19.01.10 21:10, schrieb Alan BRASLAU:

You probably are right to favor \quotation{}, \dots, etc.
and to go unicode. But is it really necessary and a good idea
to break with TeX culture? I guess so. What about $ $ (and $$ $$)?
How about % (\%)? Not to mention
   

$ and  are no problem because you can write inline math with \formula{...}
and ConTeXt’s tables don't use 

% is problmeatic because you need a character to start a comment
and there is AFAIK no way to get the same result from % with a macro

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Aditya Mahajan

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:


Am 19.01.10 21:10, schrieb Alan BRASLAU:

You probably are right to favor \quotation{}, \dots, etc.
and to go unicode. But is it really necessary and a good idea
to break with TeX culture? I guess so. What about $ $ (and $$ $$)?
How about % (\%)? Not to mention


$ and  are no problem because you can write inline math with \formula{...}
and ConTeXt’s tables don't use 


I will probably also set # catcode to be letter in ctxcatcodetable.


% is problmeatic because you need a character to start a comment
and there is AFAIK no way to get the same result from % with a macro


\comment{something}

or

\startcomment
...
\stopcomment

Aditya___
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Aditya Mahajan

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Alan BRASLAU wrote:


On Tuesday 19 January 2010 20:31:22 Mojca Miklavec wrote:

Let me be a bit more nationalistic and exaggerate a bit for a moment
(just in order to explain why I find the idea of using `` a bad one;
do not take the text below too seriously or personally):


I think that the easiest would be for everyone to use English :)
That's my bit for Imperialism!

As I write in a mixture of languages, I like to use \quotation{}.
But long-time TeX users have habits that die hard,
and just as we expect fl to yield fl, we also learn many bad tricks
such as ``'' and ...


- The deciding moment when some of these ugly tricks have been thrown
away was when we realized that if you do add those tricks, there is no
way to print the grave accent.


How about {\`} (untested)


No. It is not easy. See 
http://archive.contextgarden.net/thread/20060912.165653.90ce7552.en.html


In particular, see Taco's reply.

Aditya___
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Wolfgang Schuster

Am 19.01.10 21:26, schrieb Aditya Mahajan:

% is problmeatic because you need a character to start a comment
and there is AFAIK no way to get the same result from % with a macro


\comment{something}

or

\startcomment
...
\stopcomment

what about

\starttext
text Auf%
lage text
\stoptext

or

\def\foo#1#2%
  {...}

Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Aditya Mahajan

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:


Am 19.01.10 21:26, schrieb Aditya Mahajan:

% is problmeatic because you need a character to start a comment
and there is AFAIK no way to get the same result from % with a macro


\comment{something}

or

\startcomment
...
\stopcomment

what about

\starttext
text Auf%
lage text
\stoptext


\starttext
text Auf\relax
lage text
\stoptext


or


\unprotect


\def\foo#1#2%
 {...}


\protect


(with appropriate changes in the catcode tables)

For (simple) user macros we already have

\define[2]\foo
  { ... }

Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Hans Hagen

On 19-1-2010 21:10, Alan BRASLAU wrote:


and just as we expect fl to yield fl, we also learn many bad tricks


more precisely: as tex turns fl into fl without distinction between 
languages we have come to expect that to be the case



such as ``'' and ...


i must admit that i've never used those doubles ... \quotation cum suis 
are the oldest context commands


Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Mojca Miklavec
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 21:10, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

 I think that the easiest would be for everyone to use English :)
 That's my bit for Imperialism!

But then there would be plenty of historians trying to reproduce the
old languages, just as Idris does. So nothing would be gained :) :)
:)

 As I write in a mixture of languages, I like to use \quotation{}.
 But long-time TeX users have habits that die hard,

(Let them continue use TeX then :) :) :)

But seriously - there are lots of other incompatibilities.

 and just as we expect fl to yield fl, we also learn many bad tricks
 such as ``'' and ...

No, you won't get that ligature if your font doesn't support it and
most people do not notice that ligatures exist at all (including me,
even after using LaTeX for several years).

Yes - it is a trick on the same level, but that trick needs to be
implemented in font. ConTeXt will never try to replace that with a
ligature if your font won't ask for that (and there's a way to turn
ligatures off completely in mkiv/xetex).

You can also easily create a font that will do the replacement of
backtick with single quotation mark for you. The main difference is
that 99.9% fonts in the wild don't have that replacement built in,
while most high-quality fonts do have some ligatures. The replacement
of ` or ' would usually be done by editors (Word), but there is no
standard editor for TeX to do that.

 - The deciding moment when some of these ugly tricks have been thrown
 away was when we realized that if you do add those tricks, there is no
 way to print the grave accent.

 How about {\`} (untested)

Apart from the fact that this is a command used for a completely
different purpose, it wouldn't help. The problem is that
transformation is being done on glyph at position 0x60 in font itself.
The only option would be to copy the glyph 0x60 to Private Unicode
Area and then assign \textgrave to point to that obscure slot. But
that's more than ugly.

(See also Aditya's answer about apostrophe.)

 You probably are right to favor \quotation{}, \dots, etc.
 and to go unicode. But is it really necessary and a good idea
 to break with TeX culture? I guess so. What about $ $ (and $$ $$)?
 How about % (\%)? Not to mention 

This is a completely different question. (I do miss $$...$$ to be honest.)
These are active characters. You may do
\catcode\`=\letter (untested syntax)
or maybe some \nonknuthmode command and you'll get the characted .
Same is true for % (but yes - you need to forget about comments then).
The meaning of those characters is changed on the editor level, so
it's extremely easy to change the behaviour.

The hack with `` is on font level. And that's when it's gets really
ugly. There is *no* way to get the original character back without
changing the font itself.

Two exceptions have been left on font level. That is two (harmless)
ligatures: -- (endash), --- (emdash) and replacement with
apostrophe as in I'm. The last one is still very very ugly, but I
think it's mission impossible to convince anyone to change the habit
of using the proper apostrophe instead of '.

 I have no idea which keyboard you use, but US International is pretty
 rich (the problem is lack of some legend on keyboard itself), on the
 other hand it's easy enough to make your own layout.

 My own computers are US International. However, I often use other
 computers having different layouts, many of which I cannot change.
 The worst I find are the Macs with French keyboards,

Let's be honest ... any French keyboard ... :)

 as when I use them,
 I always have to remember how to find \ and {}

I admit that I neither remember where to find the letter A on French
keyboard nor the same characters on Slovenian keyboard ... But wait!
So you are complaining that you don't find quotation marks when
already \ and {} cause you problems?

 The bottom line is that we need to document these differences
 towards the very beginning of the manual, where ConTeXt is
 identified as a form of TeX.

I agree with that ... but there's a general problem with
(unmaintaned) documentation in ConTeXt.

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Peter Münster
On Tue, Jan 19 2010, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

 My own computers are US International. However, I often use other
 computers having different layouts, many of which I cannot change.
 The worst I find are the Macs with French keyboards, as when I use them,
 I always have to remember how to find \ and {}

Perhaps you could put your dot-files (especially .xmodmap) on a public
server, and whenever you change the computer, you copy your personal
keyboard layout.
I'm doing that with subversion. svn co ... and I feel at home :)

Cheers, Peter

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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Taco Hoekwater

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

The worst I find are the Macs with French keyboards,


Let's be honest ... any French keyboard ... :)


Don't forget macbook keyboards with dvorak mapping ;)


I agree with that ... but there's a general problem with
(unmaintaned) documentation in ConTeXt.


There is the mkiv differences page in the wiki, but already the
context manual is quite clear on using \quotation and \quote.

The problem is that all the latex and plain tex books promote
the use of `` and '' and people that already use TeX are unlikely
to change their habits (and most will not read the context manual
as thoroughly as they should).

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Alan BRASLAU
On Wednesday 20 January 2010 08:04:43 Taco Hoekwater wrote:
 The problem is that all the latex and plain tex books promote
 the use of `` and '' and people that already use TeX are unlikely
 to change their habits (and most will not read the context manual
 as thoroughly as they should).
 

This is my concern. Whereas I do prefer \quotation{} being functionally 
logical, after all the spirit of TeX, I also like unicode generalizations 
(such as ± for \pm). Nevertheless, hard core TeX users as well as converts 
from LaTeX *expect* ``'', --, ---, ..., etc. to work in ConTeXt. I assume that 
the present discussion is useful and not simply controversial.

I ignore the mechanisms behind the different implementations (macro, fonts, 
catcar, ...) and the problems that arise.

Concerning typesetting source code, I would suggest something as simple as 
suspending ALL such tricks within \text{} and \starttyping\stoptyping (perhaps 
parametrized). One could also define something like \shellescape{}, analogous 
to \quotation{}, to typeset `echo hello world` and even \string{} to typeset 
string or 'string', according to the programming language initialized.

What I also find disturbing is that *some* of these conventions are retained, 
but not all.

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-19 Thread Peter Münster
On Wed, Jan 20 2010, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

 What I also find disturbing is that *some* of these conventions are retained, 
 but not all.

Since most people use fixed width fonts in their editors, it is difficult
to distinguish between – (en-dash), — (em-dash) and - (hyphen-minus).
So -- and --- are quite useful.

Cheers, Peter

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[NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-18 Thread views63
Hi  all,

I'm using `` complex analysis'' the output is wrong.

but using \ quotation (... ...) can output the correct quotation marks

The example:

\starttext

 `` complex analysis''

\quotation{complex analysis}

\stoptext

--
Best Regards
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-18 Thread Taco Hoekwater

Hi,

views63 wrote:
 Hi  all,
 
 I'm using `` complex analysis'' the output is wrong.

Not really. We (Hans and I) would say that it is now finally right. ;)

 but using \ quotation (... ...) can output the correct quotation marks

This is the right way to do it. Alternatively, you can use unicode
characters to input the correct quotation marks.

Best wishes,
Taco

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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-18 Thread views63
2010/1/18 Taco Hoekwater t...@elvenkind.com

 Hi,

 views63 wrote:
  Hi  all,
 
  I'm using `` complex analysis'' the output is wrong.

 Not really. We (Hans and I) would say that it is now finally right. ;)

  but using \ quotation (... ...) can output the correct quotation marks

 This is the right way to do it. Alternatively, you can use unicode
 characters to input the correct quotation marks.

 Best wishes,
 Taco

Thank you ,I see.
--
Best Regards
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-18 Thread Alan BRASLAU
On Monday 18 January 2010 13:50:25 Taco Hoekwater wrote:
 Hi,
 
 views63 wrote:
  Hi  all,
 
  I'm using `` complex analysis'' the output is wrong.
 
 Not really. We (Hans and I) would say that it is now finally right. ;)
 
  but using \ quotation (... ...) can output the correct quotation marks
 
 This is the right way to do it. Alternatively, you can use unicode
 characters to input the correct quotation marks.
 
 Best wishes,
 Taco

This is true of many standard TeX ligatures (is this the right word here?)
such as ... (\ldots, \dots also works),  (\og),  (\fg), ` (\glqq),
' (\grqq), ~ (unbreakable space), etc.

This can be a bit disturbing for experienced TeX users.

OK, \quotation{} is cleaner and of course using unicode
characters may be even more readable, sometimes.

I have very mixed feelings, as I know how to type ...
but I never can recall the keyboard gymnastics necessary
to get this in unicode.
(Things are even worse on a Mac, as the standard keyboard
layout is missing lots of important characters.)

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-18 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm
2010/1/18 Alan BRASLAU alan.bras...@cea.fr:
 I have very mixed feelings, as I know how to type ...
 but I never can recall the keyboard gymnastics necessary
 to get this in unicode.
 (Things are even worse on a Mac, as the standard keyboard
 layout is missing lots of important characters.)

At least with German key layouts I get a lot more characters on the
Mac than on Windows.
Otherwise just design your own (or expand your French? one) with
Ukelele: http://scripts.sil.org/Ukelele

Because the standard German key layout gives access to accented vowels
using dead keys, but not to e.g. eastern European accented consonants,
and I don't like to learn Dvorak or Neo, I made my own. But there are
some ready-made ones around, too, e.g.
http://freenet-homepage.de/lutz_mader/keyboards.html

I don't miss the old TeX ligatures.

Greetlings, Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

2010-01-18 Thread Hans Hagen

On 18-1-2010 14:15, Alan BRASLAU wrote:


This is true of many standard TeX ligatures (is this the right word here?)


actually they are inoput tricks misusing tex's ligature mechanism and 
there are also some weird ones (never used in practice)



such as ... (\ldots, \dots also works),  (\og),  (\fg), ` (\glqq),
' (\grqq), ~ (unbreakable space), etc.


~ is a macro


This can be a bit disturbing for experienced TeX users.

OK, \quotation{} is cleaner and of course using unicode
characters may be even more readable, sometimes.

I have very mixed feelings, as I know how to type ...
but I never can recall the keyboard gymnastics necessary
to get this in unicode.


\somenameforasymbol is always okay

but as taco mentioned ... in mkiv these pseudo ligs are sort of gone

Hans


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