[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

Hi Max,


I already did that last year: any type-imp-* files that depend on
excluded .lfg files are also excluded.


ok, so consistent


I don't expect anyone to ever do that, and I don't think that anyone
_should_ ever do that, but the fact that it's theoretically possible was
one of the ways that I was able to justify the policy change.


ok (not that the policy change affected us, as the typescripts without 
pfg are useless; i assume these huge latex files with non free fonts 
mentioned were the reason for the policy change, the saving time etc 
argument)



I believe that I had already excluded the relevant type-imp-* from my
initial release (or in the first update a few days later), so for as
long as I've been responsible for the packaging, the ConTeXt in TL has
never distributed type-imp-* files with missing .lfg files, meaning that
the font rendering will either be fully correct, or loading the font
will fail completely.


good


An alternative is a more strick consistency test and let context crash
on a file when this kind of hackery happens.


I believe that that's what happens already, but my memory might be wrong
here.


no need to recover memory

Thanks,

Hans

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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 3/20/2026 2:47 AM, Max Chernoff via ntg-context wrote:


Sure, and this policy does not restrict you from loading non-free
images, packages, or fonts in any way. Things that _do_ restrict your
freedom are the LaTeX parts of luaotfload using only local variables,
the disabling of the "debug" module in LuaTeX, \overloadmode=255,
luatexbase disabling the raw callback registration system, etc., since
these actually prevent you from modifying certain behaviours. But
removing files just removes files, and there's nothing stopping you from
adding back in the files yourself.


hm, local variables, shadowed primitives, etc ... here the freedom is 
that one can just program stuff oneself; one can define freedom in a way 
that it should permit everything but that then also involve using 
whatever one finds on one's path; start with a clean engine and no 
format and one can modify anything


- local variables: of course, otherwise one clashes, it's why we have 
interfaces; we actually expose more than we want / like already (i can't 
speak for luaotfload as i have little clue what it adds to the context 
font loader)


- disabling debug (and execute and ..) is tex policy (comparable with 
fonts) ... to some extend it is a protection against abuse


- overloadmode is preventing users messing with internals etc (and 
easier and more controllable than shadowing); i with more users would 
enable the warning mode


- disabling some callbacks is again protecting users; there's plenty 
left to mess around and waste the system


- it would be nice if we could also disable the luatex / context / 
manuals / etc bashing one can find on the web -)


As context is all done in free-time which presumingly comes for free 
there is only so much we can do about all this. So I'm not worried by 
these limitations.


It's kind of funny, this kind of 'idealistic software communism' esp 
when it comes from countries that lack the basic social infrastructure 
(demands and implementation of free food, free housing, free healthcare, 
free ... never seems to overlap with those of free software).


It's anyway why regular (small scale) users drive context development, 
not big tex, so in the end all comes down to commmunication,


Hans


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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Jim, Arthur,

On Thu, 2026-03-19 at 10:51 -0300, Jim Diamond wrote:
> (I guess things are clear,
> at least if I squint just right.)
>
> First, thanks for the long and detailed reply, I appreciate that it took a
> while for you to put that together.

Also, keep in mind that we are talking about a _tiny_ number of files
here. The ConTeXt packages in TL ("context", "context-legacy", and
"mptopdf") contain 6160 files, while the "context-nonfree" package
contains 63 files. But 43 of these files are for the Koeieletters font
(which is cute, but I doubt that its omission will bother anyone), so
there are really only 20 files omitted. Which I agree is still
inconvenient for users, but most users are unlikely to even notice.

> Second, while I strongly believe in the concepts of free(dom) and
> open-source software, I think some policies (such as "don't distribute
> software that only is useful with non-free software") are not necessarily
> friends of free/OSS, because "freedom" should include the freedom to use
> what software I want.  In other words, these policies are restricting my
> freedom.

Sure, and this policy does not restrict you from loading non-free
images, packages, or fonts in any way. Things that _do_ restrict your
freedom are the LaTeX parts of luaotfload using only local variables,
the disabling of the "debug" module in LuaTeX, \overloadmode=255,
luatexbase disabling the raw callback registration system, etc., since
these actually prevent you from modifying certain behaviours. But
removing files just removes files, and there's nothing stopping you from
adding back in the files yourself.

> For example, if I am madly in love with some non-free typeface, a
> policy that essentially says "we're going to make it hard for you to use
> that typeface" is just spiteful.

This is definitely not spiteful: TUG sells the Lucida fonts (and this is
a _substantial_ source of revenue for us), and Karl is friends with
Chuck Bigelow, the designer of the fonts. Yet TL still excludes all the
Lucida support files and requires users to install them manually or from
tlcontrib, out of principle, not out of spite.

> Q: Do you think that, at the risk of raising the ire of the absolutist
> elements in the free software world, that mentioning tlcontrib more
> prominently (say, on https://www.tug.org/texlive/) would make sense?  And
> if you think so, do you think Karl would agree?

First, a general point: I don't (and can't) speak for Karl, so you'll
need to check with him first about this. But the TL pages already
mention tlcontrib in various locations

https://tug.org/texlive/pkginstall.html#tlcontrib

https://tug.org/texlive/quickinstall.html

https://tug.org/texlive/doc/tlmgr.html#Pinning

so there's no "rule" against mentioning it in the documentation. And
documentation patches are always appreciated, so your suggestions will
likely be accepted. I think that the important points are:

- tlcontrib is a third-party repository, completely unaffiliated with
  TeX Live (and TUG). Norbert happens to maintain both TL and tlcontrib,
  but for documentation purposes, we pretend that that's not true.

- The official TL documentation should not recommend that
  users install third-party repositories or non-free software.
  Mentioning that these exist is fine, and so is telling users how to
  install them, but users should never be encouraged to install them, or
  made to think that installing them is the "default".

On Thu, 2026-03-19 at 17:39 +0100, Arthur Rosendahl wrote:
>   You’re barking at the wrong tree.  Max is trying to make ConTeXt
> easier to use with TeX Live, so everyone is going to agree with you
> here.
>
> > Q: Do you think that, at the risk of raising the ire of the absolutist
> > elements in the free software world, that mentioning tlcontrib more
> > prominently (say, on https://www.tug.org/texlive/) would make sense?  And
> > if you think so, do you think Karl would agree?
>
>   Karl is always in favour of improving the documentation.  Writing and
> keeping it up to date is a thankless job, so any help is welcome.
> The point is obviously not to hide information.

+100 to all of the above.

Thanks,
-- Max
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Hans,

On Thu, 2026-03-19 at 14:12 +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> On 3/19/2026 10:43 AM, Max Chernoff via ntg-context wrote:
> > - The pragmatist: I only have free fonts installed, and my friend send
> >me a .tex file that depends on non-free fonts. If I rename some free
> >fonts without .lfg files to the same name as the proprietary fonts,
> >then the document compiles correctly; therefore, the type-imp-* files
> >are useful on their own without proprietary software. But this
> >renaming trick gives an error with the .lfg files (or produces
> >unusable output, etc.), therefore these files are not useful with only
> >free software.
> >
> > - The literalist: type-imp-* files are like .map files, therefore they
> >are allowed. .lfg files are like .tfm files, therefore they are not
> >allowed.
> > Yes, see the long explanation above :). But please let me know if
> > anything is still unclear, and I can try and clarify it further.
>
> Well, I strongly suggest that if the needed lfg files are not there,
> then the typescript files should also not be there. So: just remove the
> cambria files from tex live then.

I already did that last year: any type-imp-* files that depend on
excluded .lfg files are also excluded.

> We just don't want to deal with this
> kind of inconsistencies: it just doesn't pass our quality criteria and
> in fact works against quality. The rename or copy some whatever font to
> cambria is imo rediculous.

I don't expect anyone to ever do that, and I don't think that anyone
_should_ ever do that, but the fact that it's theoretically possible was
one of the ways that I was able to justify the policy change.

> If that fails somehow in a run, so be it: a
> missing file is something we can explain, inconsistent and crappy output
> is much harder, unless we no longer care. We spent a lot of time on
> these math issues.

I believe that I had already excluded the relevant type-imp-* from my
initial release (or in the first update a few days later), so for as
long as I've been responsible for the packaging, the ConTeXt in TL has
never distributed type-imp-* files with missing .lfg files, meaning that
the font rendering will either be fully correct, or loading the font
will fail completely.

> An alternative is a more strick consistency test and let context crash
> on a file when this kind of hackery happens.

I believe that that's what happens already, but my memory might be wrong
here.

Thanks,
-- Max
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hraban Ramm]

Am 19.03.26 um 09:08 schrieb Max Chernoff:

Ok, I tried running an Arch container and installing "texlive-context"
using pacman, and there are indeed quite a few problems there, to the
point where I don't think that it would be possible for a typical user
to convert it into a working installation. I'll report this in the Arch
bug tracker, but I have to wait for them to manually approve my account
first (I sent in the request yesterday).


Thank you very much for looking into that!

Hraban

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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 3/19/2026 10:43 AM, Max Chernoff via ntg-context wrote:

Hi Jim,



- The pragmatist: I only have free fonts installed, and my friend send
   me a .tex file that depends on non-free fonts. If I rename some free
   fonts without .lfg files to the same name as the proprietary fonts,
   then the document compiles correctly; therefore, the type-imp-* files
   are useful on their own without proprietary software. But this
   renaming trick gives an error with the .lfg files (or produces
   unusable output, etc.), therefore these files are not useful with only
   free software.

- The literalist: type-imp-* files are like .map files, therefore they
   are allowed. .lfg files are like .tfm files, therefore they are not
   allowed.
Yes, see the long explanation above :). But please let me know if
anything is still unclear, and I can try and clarify it further.
Well, I strongly suggest that if the needed lfg files are not there, 
then the typescript files should also not be there. So: just remove the 
cambria files from tex live then. We just don't want to deal with this 
kind of inconsistencies: it just doesn't pass our quality criteria and 
in fact works against quality. The rename or copy some whatever font to 
cambria is imo rediculous. If that fails somehow in a run, so be it: a 
missing file is something we can explain, inconsistent and crappy output 
is much harder, unless we no longer care. We spent a lot of time on 
these math issues.


(Of course it is kind of funny that cambria can't be supported out of 
the box while it is the template / standard for math fonts ... it's not 
like the tex community came up with the opentype follow up.)


An alternative is a more strick consistency test and let context crash 
on a file when this kind of hackery happens.


Hans

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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Jim,

On Wed, 2026-03-18 at 14:22 -0300, Jim wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2026 at 04:06 (-0700), Max Chernoff via ntg-context wrote:
> > On Tue, 2026-03-17 at 10:54 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > On 3/17/2026 10:13 AM, Max Chernoff wrote:
> > > So maybe when we'd ship byte-compiled lfg files it would fall through.
>
> > Well then you'd fall afoul of the "all compiled files must also contain
> > their corresponding source" rule :)
>
> > > That is the strange thing: why does the policy permit filenames in tex
> > > files but not in lua files ... baffles me.
>
> > Filenames are equally fine in Lua and TeX files, but the difference is
> > that the .lfg files reference the structure/contents of the font, not
> > just the name. For example, you can rename "texgyrepagella-regular.otf"
> > to "LucidaBrightOT.otf", and "type-imp-lucida.mkiv" will still work
> > completely correctly (I've even tested this out). However,
> > "cambria-math.lfg" depends on the font having a character in
> > "0x221A.parts.bottom" that needs to be kerned by 0.2 units; this will
> > presumably only work (or only give good results with) the actual Cambria
> > Math font, and not just some random font renamed to "cambmath.ttf"
>
> I don't want to flog any horse to death, but I will admit I don't
> understand this particular point.
>
> Specifically, I don't see how referencing something in a non-free font
> makes cambria-math.lfg itself verboten.

So the default/historic rule is that if a file is only useful when used
with non-free software, then it cannot be included in TL. As far as I'm
aware, this rule has been in place forever, but the first formal mention
of it that I can find is from 2010. The documentation is still kept in
RCS, so here's the log+diff:


revision 1.21
date: 2010/11/23 00:49:02;  author: karl;  state: Exp;  lines: +29 -21
free support for something nonfree doesn't fly.
===
RCS file: RCS/pkgcontrib.html,v
retrieving revision 1.20
retrieving revision 1.21
diff --unified -r1.20 -r1.21
--- pkgcontrib.html 2010/10/04 23:10:51 1.20
+++ pkgcontrib.html 2010/11/23 00:49:02 1.21
[...]
@@ -21,38 +21,46 @@
[...]
+a.2) The package must be useful in itself, or useful in conjunction
+with free software.  In other words, we won't install a package that
+exists only to support something nonfree, even when it is free itself
+(e.g., LPPL'd macro support for a proprietary font).  That doesn't help
+the free software world, and would rightly be rejected by http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html";>free distros in
+any case.

Because of this, the type-imp-* files for non-free fonts were excluded
from TL, from before I started maintaining the package


https://svn.tug.org:8369/texlive?revision=67034&view=revision&limit_changes=0

(Those files were _always_ supposed to be excluded, but with >250k files
in TL, nobody has the time to check every one, so only "obvious" cases
tend to be caught, and even these often take a while.)

When I took over maintenance of the ConTeXt package last year, my first
step was to compare the ConTeXt files in TL with the ones in the
Standalone Distribution. I noticed the missing files, and lots of
discussion ensued. Essentially, we (Karl and I) agreed on the following:

1.  We do not want to make any _significant_ changes to the current
policy regarding free support files for non-free software.

2.  "psnfss.map" has been around for 30+ years

https://www.ctan.org/pkg/psnfss

and has been included in TL since the very beginning


https://svn.tug.org:8369/texlive/trunk/Master/texmf-dist/fonts/map/dvips/psnfss/psnfss.map?revision=93&pathrev=93&view=markup

3.  "psnfss.map" is only useful with non-free fonts (ignoring that there
are free clones available now; there are other .map files that refer
to fonts without free clones). But the current (in 2025) policy
requires us to remove this file.

4.  But we don't want to remove "psnfss.map", because this would break
30+ years of documents, because there's 20+ years of precedent, and
because removing this file wouldn't benefit the free software
movement in any way.

5.  The type-imp-* files are semantically equivalent to the .map files,
so if we allow .map files for non-free fonts, then it would be
inconsistent to disallow type-imp-* files for non-free fonts.

At this point, Karl and I came to the conclusion that given the above
points, the best solution would be to reword the current policy to allow
exactly this case. So:


revision 1.56
date: 2025/05/14 20:05:25;  author: karl;  state: Exp;  lines: +13 -12
exception tweak

revision 1.55
date: 2025/05/14 00:41:11;  author: mseven;  state: Exp;  lines: +12 -2
Update pkgcontrib.html with .ma

[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Hraban,

On Tue, 2026-03-17 at 20:01 +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> One of 2 users who reported failure with TL/ConTeXt on Arch said:
>
> ”TeX-Live was installed using the Arch repos and as far as I remember
> the paths of the config files were wrong.”
>
> Also the other had used the Arch packages.
>
> In the ConTeXt workshop at CCCamp 2023, one user found out that his
> Linux distro (AFAIR also Arch) split context into texlive-context and
> texlive-luametatex plus fonts-texgyre, without a dependency declared.

Ok, I tried running an Arch container and installing "texlive-context"
using pacman, and there are indeed quite a few problems there, to the
point where I don't think that it would be possible for a typical user
to convert it into a working installation. I'll report this in the Arch
bug tracker, but I have to wait for them to manually approve my account
first (I sent in the request yesterday).

Thanks,
-- Max
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Jim]

Hi Max,

On Tue, Mar 17, 2026 at 04:06 (-0700), Max Chernoff via ntg-context wrote:

> Hi Hans,

> On Tue, 2026-03-17 at 10:54 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 3/17/2026 10:13 AM, Max Chernoff wrote:
>> So maybe when we'd ship byte-compiled lfg files it would fall through.

> Well then you'd fall afoul of the "all compiled files must also contain
> their corresponding source" rule :)

>> That is the strange thing: why does the policy permit filenames in tex
>> files but not in lua files ... baffles me.

> Filenames are equally fine in Lua and TeX files, but the difference is
> that the .lfg files reference the structure/contents of the font, not
> just the name. For example, you can rename "texgyrepagella-regular.otf"
> to "LucidaBrightOT.otf", and "type-imp-lucida.mkiv" will still work
> completely correctly (I've even tested this out). However,
> "cambria-math.lfg" depends on the font having a character in
> "0x221A.parts.bottom" that needs to be kerned by 0.2 units; this will
> presumably only work (or only give good results with) the actual Cambria
> Math font, and not just some random font renamed to "cambmath.ttf"

I don't want to flog any horse to death, but I will admit I don't
understand this particular point.

Specifically, I don't see how referencing something in a non-free font
makes cambria-math.lfg itself verboten.

Indeed, cambria-math.lfg might not work well with some other font that is
pretending it is Cambria math, but surely that isn't a reason to declare
the .lfg file non-free.  It just tells me that if I pretend some other font
is Cambria math, then I'll get an error or bad results or ...

But isn't that problem on the user who is pretending something else is
Cambria math?  There are all sorts of things I can do to make TeX, LaTeX
and ConTeXt give me bad output, and surely texlive doesn't want to omit
every piece of the system that I can mis-use.

Similarly, there are all sorts of pieces of software on my computer which
assist me in using non-free software.  But I imagine even the most
fanatical Debian person would allow those on his/her computer.

So... is the exclusion of cambria-math.lfg explainable in any other way
than "ugly output will result if you use it on a free font"?

Thanks.

Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 17.03.26 um 11:30 schrieb Max Chernoff:


Was this the version of TL installed from tug.org (or one of the various
CTAN mirrors), or the version of TL packaged in the Arch repos? Because
I've heard reports that the TL packaged in Arch has quite a few issues.
I can _try_ and help with the version in the Arch repos, but since I
don't use Arch myself, I can't really test anything.


We should collect the details under which circumstances it fails:
- OS / processor architecture
- installed as user/admin
- previous installation present

One of 2 users who reported failure with TL/ConTeXt on Arch said:

”TeX-Live was installed using the Arch repos and as far as I remember 
the paths of the config files were wrong.”


Also the other had used the Arch packages.

In the ConTeXt workshop at CCCamp 2023, one user found out that his 
Linux distro (AFAIR also Arch) split context into texlive-context and 
texlive-luametatex plus fonts-texgyre, without a dependency declared.


Hraban
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

Hi Max,


On Tue, 2026-03-17 at 10:54 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:

On 3/17/2026 10:13 AM, Max Chernoff wrote:
So maybe when we'd ship byte-compiled lfg files it would fall through.


Well then you'd fall afoul of the "all compiled files must also contain
their corresponding source" rule :)


That one is already applied to context and of course there are more 
cases where it woudl apply.


In fact, omitting the luametatex sources kind of violates the context 
folk 'source included' rule anyway.



That is the strange thing: why does the policy permit filenames in tex
files but not in lua files ... baffles me.


Filenames are equally fine in Lua and TeX files, but the difference is
that the .lfg files reference the structure/contents of the font, not
just the name. For example, you can rename "texgyrepagella-regular.otf"
to "LucidaBrightOT.otf", and "type-imp-lucida.mkiv" will still work


Well, if that is considered okay we can also replace tex by word or 
whatever ... after all, how do we define 'still work' ... but maybe I'm 
old fashioned and the same applies to everything; maybe that's why the 
usa ended up with a crazy president: voters swapping one party for 
another because they assume 'it will still work'.



completely correctly (I've even tested this out). However,
"cambria-math.lfg" depends on the font having a character in
"0x221A.parts.bottom" that needs to be kerned by 0.2 units; this will
presumably only work (or only give good results with) the actual Cambria
Math font, and not just some random font renamed to "cambmath.ttf"


So when one rename a.otf in b.otf why not rename a.lfg into b.lfg too.

And what if a style adapts e.g. interline spacing setup etc for the 
original font ... okay, maybe that's why we see so many badly 
typeset-by-tex documents on the web ... maybe that's why so much math 
looks weird spacing wise ... swapping fonts and assuming all works fine. 
And after a while no one notices and only the 'tex is pertfect' meme 
survives and one doesn't have to check at all because of that.



And we both know that there
are non-context files that relate to non free fonts but they can't be
left out because otherwise some free stuff doesn't work.


These are in general not allowed, regardless of how much removing them
would break things. Generally files like this are kept because either:

1. They contain ~20 lines of code to support other non-free software,
interspersed between hundreds of lines of code that does something
useful without non-free fonts. (This is just to make things easier on
the TL maintainers: downstream distributions like Debian and Fedora
will patch their package sources to remove such code from their
files.)


Oh, so we should combine all files ... a lame excuse. I really hate this 
kind of inconsistency.



2. TeX Live contains >250k files, and Karl is essentially the only
person who checks the uploads, so unless something is _obviously_
non-free, it probably won't be noticed, since checking every file is
just plain impossible.


Indeed. I don't blame Karl at all. It's the policy of those the 
distribution is used by for derived work I wonder.



3. We're generally more lenient with older packages than newer packages,
because it's often impossible to contact authors of 20+ year old
packages.


Context is quite old.


But if the LaTeX kernel were to add a file that only exists to support
non-free fonts and someone points it out to the TL maintainers, then we
would indeed remove it.


I wonder.


(I agree that the rules seem almost nonsensical at times, but we're
trying to strike a balance between "complies with the policies of
downstream distributions like Debian and Fedora" and "doesn't add
needless work for the TL maintainers". Which often gives odd results,
but the alternatives either make TL impossible/really hard to package
for downstream distributions, or mean that Karl has to do a ton of extra
work.)


I bet that sticking one head in the ground (ostriche) would work well. 
We're talking file names, not resources. Those who bother about that 
can't really use the internet or any related app anyway.



I wonder if anyone would really bother if they were there. But if it
really matters I'll check my next linux update and wipe out all programs
that refer to something non-free, like browsers / css etc.


You will not find non-free software in the default installation of any
of the major Linux distributions (aside from Ubuntu). Some examples of
distro policies:

 https://en.opensuse.org/Free_and_Open_Source_Software

 https://wiki.debian.org/DebianFreeSoftwareGuidelines

 https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/legal/license-approval/


I presume these are depressing reads so I decided to listen to some (non 
free) music instead.



In general, TL's policies on non-free software are _less_ strict than
any of these distros; if you find any software that TL's current
policies disallow but would be allowed by one of th

[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Hans,

On Tue, 2026-03-17 at 10:54 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 3/17/2026 10:13 AM, Max Chernoff wrote:
> So maybe when we'd ship byte-compiled lfg files it would fall through.

Well then you'd fall afoul of the "all compiled files must also contain
their corresponding source" rule :)

> That is the strange thing: why does the policy permit filenames in tex
> files but not in lua files ... baffles me.

Filenames are equally fine in Lua and TeX files, but the difference is
that the .lfg files reference the structure/contents of the font, not
just the name. For example, you can rename "texgyrepagella-regular.otf"
to "LucidaBrightOT.otf", and "type-imp-lucida.mkiv" will still work
completely correctly (I've even tested this out). However,
"cambria-math.lfg" depends on the font having a character in
"0x221A.parts.bottom" that needs to be kerned by 0.2 units; this will
presumably only work (or only give good results with) the actual Cambria
Math font, and not just some random font renamed to "cambmath.ttf"

> And we both know that there
> are non-context files that relate to non free fonts but they can't be
> left out because otherwise some free stuff doesn't work.

These are in general not allowed, regardless of how much removing them
would break things. Generally files like this are kept because either:

1. They contain ~20 lines of code to support other non-free software,
   interspersed between hundreds of lines of code that does something
   useful without non-free fonts. (This is just to make things easier on
   the TL maintainers: downstream distributions like Debian and Fedora
   will patch their package sources to remove such code from their
   files.)

2. TeX Live contains >250k files, and Karl is essentially the only
   person who checks the uploads, so unless something is _obviously_
   non-free, it probably won't be noticed, since checking every file is
   just plain impossible.

3. We're generally more lenient with older packages than newer packages,
   because it's often impossible to contact authors of 20+ year old
   packages.

But if the LaTeX kernel were to add a file that only exists to support
non-free fonts and someone points it out to the TL maintainers, then we
would indeed remove it.

(I agree that the rules seem almost nonsensical at times, but we're
trying to strike a balance between "complies with the policies of
downstream distributions like Debian and Fedora" and "doesn't add
needless work for the TL maintainers". Which often gives odd results,
but the alternatives either make TL impossible/really hard to package
for downstream distributions, or mean that Karl has to do a ton of extra
work.)

> I wonder if anyone would really bother if they were there. But if it
> really matters I'll check my next linux update and wipe out all programs
> that refer to something non-free, like browsers / css etc.

You will not find non-free software in the default installation of any
of the major Linux distributions (aside from Ubuntu). Some examples of
distro policies:

https://en.opensuse.org/Free_and_Open_Source_Software

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianFreeSoftwareGuidelines

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/legal/license-approval/

In general, TL's policies on non-free software are _less_ strict than
any of these distros; if you find any software that TL's current
policies disallow but would be allowed by one of these distros, then
that's almost certainly an oversight on our part, and we will likely be
able to relax TL's policies to allow it.

> > > so these users are toast anyway.
> >
> > Not quite "toast", just not installed by default. All these files are
> > available in the tlcontrib repo
> >
> >  https://contrib.texlive.info/
>
> Poor users, who have to cope with all this.

Agreed, this would not be my first choice (personally), but it's the
best option given the current policies.

> >  $ tlmgr repository add 
> > https://mirror.ctan.org/systems/texlive/tlcontrib tlcontrib
> >  $ tlmgr install context-nonfree
>
> That second line kind of indicates the weirdness. When I update the way
> larger programs in an linux / windows installations I never have to do that.

This is _exactly_ how most Linux distributions work:

https://rpmfusion.org/Howto/Multimedia

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/rpmfusion-setup/


https://serverfault.com/questions/240920/how-do-i-enable-non-free-packages-on-debian


https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive#the-non-free-archive-area

https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Installing_codecs_from_Packman_repositories

https://en.opensuse.org/Additional_package_repositories

Which is fairly unsurprising, since tlcontrib was explicitly modelled
after Debian:

https://contrib.texlive.info/

> > After that, *all* of the files contained in the Standalone Distribution
> > but excluded from the default installation of TL will be available in
> > their standard locations, and will automatically update w

[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 3/17/2026 11:30 AM, Max Chernoff wrote:


Ok, I'm pretty sure that I know exactly what's causing this. TeX Live
usually runs "mtxrun (--luatex) --generate" at installation time, but
I've been told that MacTeX specifically disables this step.

The reason is that on every single other platform, TeX Live locally
builds the format files for every format/engine combination when it is
installed, but MacTeX builds all the format files on the server and then
just uses those files locally. I believe that this is due to some
Apple-imposed limit on how long it can take to install a piece of
software, which TL would exceed without pregenerating the format files
remotely.


A few tex-lives ago i actually checked on a mac (obsolete now by lack of 
osx updates) and one thing that complicates matters is that one has no 
clue on what paths is actually used due to symbolic links that point to 
other links that ... etc that has some historic reasosn that then make 
this "let's not touch this because who knows what i might break" 
situations. A regular lmtx install is simpler so that often works, but 
texlive has some history to take care of.



I was under the (mistaken) impression that this meant that MacTeX would
still run "mtxrun --generate" at install time, but the email never
actually said that anywhere. And the behaviour that you mentioned
_almost certainly_ means that "mtxrun --generate" has never been ran as
root.


In the end I suppose that it is a miracacle that it does somehow works 
on a mac given this notarizing stuff.



Anyways, the short answer is that this is probably my fault :). I'll
email the MacTeX people to see if there's any way that we can fix it.


Good.


With at least two other participants (Linux and Windows, AFAIR) it
worked, but it’s possible that files from TL25 were used.


The packaging process tests on Linux before any releases, and I use the
ConTeXt in TL on Linux at least once a week (and usually multiple times
daily), so it should be pretty rare that things break there. I'm not
able to test the other platforms, so I rely on people reporting issues.


Indeed, esp as it changed over time where e.g. configurations are put. I 
remember the times when these huge permutasions of all possible TEXMF 
etc paths were compiled into linux binaries (which of course leads to 
lots of checks and a slow down; there are reasons why we cached nested 
calls as esp all these "kpsewhich shebang launchers" were a real slow 
down).



Anyways, I've tested again just now, and ConTeXt works fine for me on
Linux x86_64, both on a fresh installation (via the Island of TeX
container images) and on my main installation upgraded from TL22.


Ok. One of these day we will push an update and you can check again.


A common problem of previous TLs (didn’t check 26) was that
lua(meta)tex’s cache was built with administrator rights on
installation. Running as a normal user, this was not writable, so
lua(meta)tex created a new one, that resulted in conflicts about files
not found or found in wrong places.
Please avoid creating anything for ConTeXt with admin rights.


That's actually the exact opposite of what's happening here :). The
issue is that ConTeXt doesn't know how to find itself until you've ran
"mtxrun --generate" at least once. Using the Standalone Distribution:

 $ export PATH=/opt/context/tex/texmf-linux-64/bin/:/usr/bin/
 $ sudo rm -rf /opt/context/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/
 $ rm -rf ~/luametatex-cache/context/

 $ context --nofile
 mtxrun  | unknown script 'mtx-context.lua' or 'mtx-mtx-context.lua'

 $ sudo /opt/context/tex/texmf-linux-64/bin/mtxrun --generate
 resolvers   | resolving | variable 'SELFAUTOLOC' set to 
'/opt/context/tex/texmf-linux-64/bin'
 [...]
 resolvers   | resolving | saving tree 'selfautoparent:texmf-context'
 resolvers   | caches | hashing tree 'selfautoparent:texmf-context', 
hash 'fb39a92c95ceca857c3f2d0ee48a2ad3'
 [...]
 mtxrun  | elapsed lua time: 0.080 seconds

 $ context --nofile
 mtx-context | warning: no format found, forcing remake (commandline 
driven)
 [...]
 resolvers   | resolving | saving tree 'selfautoparent:texmf-context'
 resolvers   | caches | hashing tree 'selfautoparent:texmf-context', 
hash 'fb39a92c95ceca857c3f2d0ee48a2ad3'
 [...]
 resolvers   | formats | executing runner 'make luametatex format': 
/opt/context/tex/texmf-linux-64/bin/luametatex --ini  --socket --shell-escape 
--lua=/opt/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/luat-cod.lmt 
/opt/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/cont-en.mkxl
 [...]
 resolvers   | formats | context file : 
/opt/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/cont-en.mkxl
 resolvers   | formats | run time : 1.204 seconds
 resolvers   | formats | return value : okay
 [...]
 system  > ConTeXt  ver: 2026.02.10 16:39 LMTX  fmt: 20

[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Hans, Hraban,

On Sun, 2026-03-15 at 13:10 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 3/15/2026 12:55 PM, Max Chernoff wrote:
> > On Sun, 2026-03-15 at 12:40 +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> > > (btw, last week at hrabans context workshop we found out that installing
> > > context from texlive is broken and unuseable;
> >
> > Hmm, sorry, that's unfortunate. The ConTeXt in TL works for me and I
> > haven't heard any recent complaints, so I'm not entirely sure what's
> > wrong. If you or Hraban (or anybody else) is able to reproduce the
> > issue, please either report it on GitHub
> >
> >  https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/context-packaging
> >
> > or email me and I'll try and fix it.
>
> When I was show the 'error' it looked like a mismatch between binary and
> macros;

I've just checked and all the binaries _appear_ to be up-to-date, but I
can only test Linux x86_64 and Windows, so there's a chance that one
platform has older binaries.

On Sun, 2026-03-15 at 13:35 +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Am 15.03.26 um 12:55 schrieb Max Chernoff via ntg-context:
> > Hi Hans,
> >
> > On Sun, 2026-03-15 at 12:40 +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> > > (btw, last week at hrabans context workshop we found out that installing
> > > context from texlive is broken and unuseable;
> >
> > Hmm, sorry, that's unfortunate. The ConTeXt in TL works for me and I
> > haven't heard any recent complaints, so I'm not entirely sure what's
> > wrong. If you or Hraban (or anybody else) is able to reproduce the
> > issue, please either report it on GitHub
> >
> >  https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/context-packaging
> >
> > or email me and I'll try and fix it.
>
> Hi Max, I wanted to report but found no time so far.

Oh, no worries; that's totally fair.

> On one participant’s Mac (clean TL26 installation, no previous TeX) we
> could generate the file database and make the format, but afterwards,
> “context” didn’t find the existing format. It worked if we called
> context with the full path.

Ok, I'm pretty sure that I know exactly what's causing this. TeX Live
usually runs "mtxrun (--luatex) --generate" at installation time, but
I've been told that MacTeX specifically disables this step.

The reason is that on every single other platform, TeX Live locally
builds the format files for every format/engine combination when it is
installed, but MacTeX builds all the format files on the server and then
just uses those files locally. I believe that this is due to some
Apple-imposed limit on how long it can take to install a piece of
software, which TL would exceed without pregenerating the format files
remotely.

On February 19th, I was asked if MacTeX should include the files created
by "mtxrun --generate". My answer was

"mtxrun --generate" is the same as "mktexlsr", and "context --make"
is the same as "fmtutil". But the results of "mtxrun --generate"
depend on which files/packages you have installed, and "context
--make" depends on "mtxrun --generate", so it wouldn't make much
sense to include those compiled files.

I was under the (mistaken) impression that this meant that MacTeX would
still run "mtxrun --generate" at install time, but the email never
actually said that anywhere. And the behaviour that you mentioned
_almost certainly_ means that "mtxrun --generate" has never been ran as
root.

Anyways, the short answer is that this is probably my fault :). I'll
email the MacTeX people to see if there's any way that we can fix it.

> With at least two other participants (Linux and Windows, AFAIR) it
> worked, but it’s possible that files from TL25 were used.

The packaging process tests on Linux before any releases, and I use the
ConTeXt in TL on Linux at least once a week (and usually multiple times
daily), so it should be pretty rare that things break there. I'm not
able to test the other platforms, so I rely on people reporting issues.

Anyways, I've tested again just now, and ConTeXt works fine for me on
Linux x86_64, both on a fresh installation (via the Island of TeX
container images) and on my main installation upgraded from TL22.

> A common problem of previous TLs (didn’t check 26) was that
> lua(meta)tex’s cache was built with administrator rights on
> installation. Running as a normal user, this was not writable, so
> lua(meta)tex created a new one, that resulted in conflicts about files
> not found or found in wrong places.
> Please avoid creating anything for ConTeXt with admin rights.

That's actually the exact opposite of what's happening here :). The
issue is that ConTeXt doesn't know how to find itself until you've ran
"mtxrun --generate" at least once. Using the Standalone Distribution:

$ export PATH=/opt/context/tex/texmf-linux-64/bin/:/usr/bin/
$ sudo rm -rf /opt/context/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/
$ rm -rf ~/luametatex-cache/context/

$ context --nofile
mtxrun  | unknown script 'mtx-context.lua' or 'mtx-mtx-context.lua'

$ sudo /opt/context/te

[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 3/17/2026 10:13 AM, Max Chernoff wrote:

Hi Hans,

On Sun, 2026-03-15 at 17:18 +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

Well, tex live kicks out files that reference non free fonts


That's not _quite_ true (but is fairly close). A file that exists only
for the purpose of using other non-free software (including fonts) isn't
allowed, with the exception that files that only reference non-free by
name (and not by content/structure) are allowed:

 https://tug.org/texlive/pkgcontrib.html#requirements
Ha, sure, because if 'by name' was not permitted one could not include 
for instance luatex binaries as they contain non free names (i wonder if 
one can find filenames / names in oither tools in tex distributions, 
engines, dvi processors, etc).


So maybe when we'd ship byte-compiled lfg files it would fall through.


The wording is a little confusing there (sorry), but I pushed for that
policy change to specifically allow including all the type-imp-* files,
including the ones that reference non-free fonts (since this wasn't
allowed prior to last May).

The *.lfg files for non-free fonts still aren't allowed though. Since
ConTeXt (understandably) gets confused when the goodie files are
missing, I've chosen to also exclude the corresponding type-imp-* files.


That is the strange thing: why does the policy permit filenames in tex 
files but not in lua files ... baffles me. And we both know that there 
are non-context files that relate to non free fonts but they can't be 
left out because otherwise some free stuff doesn't work.


Anyway, I've given up understanding all this. It doesn't help making tex 
more popular or even remaining popular or relevant. It's already a niche 
anyway and this kind of things make it even more niche.



Currently, this means that the TL package excludes the following
type-imp-* files:

 type-imp-cambria.mkiv
 type-imp-koeielettersot.mkiv
 type-imp-lucida.mkiv
 type-imp-lucida-typeone.mkiv
 type-imp-mathtimes.mkiv
 type-imp-minion.mkiv
 type-imp-mscore.mkiv

All the other files (even the ones that refer to non-free fonts) are
still included in TL.


I wonder if anyone would really bother if they were there. But if it 
really matters I'll check my next linux update and wipe out all programs 
that refer to something non-free, like browsers / css etc.



so these users are toast anyway.


Not quite "toast", just not installed by default. All these files are
available in the tlcontrib repo

 https://contrib.texlive.info/


Poor users, who have to cope with all this.


so installing them only needs two commands:

 $ tlmgr repository add https://mirror.ctan.org/systems/texlive/tlcontrib 
tlcontrib
 $ tlmgr install context-nonfree


That second line kind of indicates the weirdness. When I update the way 
larger programs in an linux / windows installations I never have to do that.



After that, *all* of the files contained in the Standalone Distribution
but excluded from the default installation of TL will be available in
their standard locations, and will automatically update with the rest of
the packages.


Apart from the fact that some configurations are adapted wrt locating 
files.



(I'm aware that this is still somewhat inconvenient, and that most users
won't do this, but this is the best/only option available to me.)


Sure, I know you somehow have to cope with it. Just hopew that no own 
ask some chat to help with this as it can be halucinating.


Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
___
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Hans,

On Sun, 2026-03-15 at 17:18 +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> Well, tex live kicks out files that reference non free fonts

That's not _quite_ true (but is fairly close). A file that exists only
for the purpose of using other non-free software (including fonts) isn't
allowed, with the exception that files that only reference non-free by
name (and not by content/structure) are allowed:

https://tug.org/texlive/pkgcontrib.html#requirements

The wording is a little confusing there (sorry), but I pushed for that
policy change to specifically allow including all the type-imp-* files,
including the ones that reference non-free fonts (since this wasn't
allowed prior to last May).

The *.lfg files for non-free fonts still aren't allowed though. Since
ConTeXt (understandably) gets confused when the goodie files are
missing, I've chosen to also exclude the corresponding type-imp-* files.

Currently, this means that the TL package excludes the following
type-imp-* files:

type-imp-cambria.mkiv
type-imp-koeielettersot.mkiv
type-imp-lucida.mkiv
type-imp-lucida-typeone.mkiv
type-imp-mathtimes.mkiv
type-imp-minion.mkiv
type-imp-mscore.mkiv

All the other files (even the ones that refer to non-free fonts) are
still included in TL.

> so these users are toast anyway.

Not quite "toast", just not installed by default. All these files are
available in the tlcontrib repo

https://contrib.texlive.info/

so installing them only needs two commands:

$ tlmgr repository add https://mirror.ctan.org/systems/texlive/tlcontrib 
tlcontrib
$ tlmgr install context-nonfree

After that, *all* of the files contained in the Standalone Distribution
but excluded from the default installation of TL will be available in
their standard locations, and will automatically update with the rest of
the packages.

(I'm aware that this is still somewhat inconvenient, and that most users
won't do this, but this is the best/only option available to me.)

Thanks,
-- Max
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Jim]

On Sun, Mar 15, 2026 at 17:18 (+0100), Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

> On 3/15/2026 4:39 PM, Jim wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 15, 2026 at 12:35 (+0100), Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

>>> On 3/13/2026 3:52 PM, Jim wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 23:48 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> Am 12.03.2026 um 19:00 schrieb Jim:
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 16:43 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> Context uses a typescript file to load cambria and expects either
> cambria.ttc or cambmath.ttf as file names.

 Wolfgang,

 thanks.  I'll try renaming the file and see what happens.

>> I did get further after installing the font file with the right name.  Then
>> it gave me a similar error because of some other font.

>> "So many fonts, so little time."


>>> there are various names used for cambria (here i have an official one for
>>> instance independent of a windows installation)

>>> fwiw: i never use the system fonts but use copies in texmf-fonts/data
>>> because then one knows what one gets (read: don't expect me to bother with
>>> issues with system fonts as these can change)

>> Good point.

>> Thinking about people who use ConTeXt on multi-user systems (where it might
>> not be feasible to let everyone put their own fonts in the stand-alone or
>> TL distribution texmf-fonts/data), would it make sense for ConTeXt to have
>> a standard place to look for a user's "personal" fonts?

> Those users are likely not permitted to use anything the sysadm doesn't
> recognize anyway.

I think that is painting with a broad brush.  While working I sometimes
used a server that I had no admin permissions on, but I might have liked to
add some non-stock things without grovelling at the door of the sys admin.

But given that I have admin control over all the computers I use, I can get
the admin guy to do things whenever I need.  ;-)


>> For example, pdftex (reportedly) looks in the directories specified in the
>> environment variable $T1FONTS (as one example).

> That's also preset in the configuration ... I dont' remember ever having
> such a system directly (maybe because I never used system fonts unless
> copied to texmf-fonts).

That's because your admin guy will always do what you want too.  :-)


>> If ConTeXt used some similar environment variable, then each user could put
>> their own font collection somewhere under their home directory (for
>> example) and not need to worry about updating the files inside the
>> stand-alone distribution, "all" they would have to do is populate their own
>> font collection, and maybe run some mtxrun command when they add new ones.

> Now you make it sound like users buy fonts.

I actually did once.

But that's not relevant, because I may want to use some free font(s) that I
find on the internet somewhere.

> Well, tex live kicks out files that reference non free fonts so these
> users are toast anyway.

I'm not talking (specifically) about TL, and not in terms of getting them
to install anything.  I'm talking about the idea of having my font
collection somewhere under my home directory rather than copying my font
files into the distribution directories.  But then setting an environment
variable which gets context (regardless of which distro that comes from) to
look at my font files as well.


>> I know there is OSFONTDIR, but (in my tests) if I specify OSFONTDIR and
>> then run
>> mtxrun --script fonts --list
>> it doesn't list my fonts in that dir.  For example, after sticking some
>> Cambria fonts in
>>  $HOME/data-files/fonts/cambria,
>> the command
>> OSFONTDIR=$HOME/data-files/fonts/cambria mtxrun --script fonts --list --all 
>> --pattern=Cam\*
>> doesn't list them.   (Whereas, after copying them into the right place in the
>> standalone distribution and running

> mtxrun --generate

> might help

It did not (by itself), but running
OSFONTDIR=$HOME/data-files/fonts/cambria mtxrun --generate
OSFONTDIR=$HOME/data-files/fonts/cambria mtxrun --script fonts --reload
did, thanks.

Mind you, this works because it rewrote some files in the standalone
distribution, which are owned by me, since I use a one-user computer.

Which sorta kinda gets me back to where I started.  If some environment
variable specified a list of other directories to search for fonts, and
mtxrun --... wrote the cache info (for files in those "other" directories)
into some canonical place inside those other directories, then all those
poor schmoes who don't have admin perms on the ConTeXt distro could
cheerfully use their own personal fonts.  Just imagine J.R. Drofnats
happily typesetting beautiful documents using ConTeXt.  ;-)

>> mtxrun --generate ; mtxrun --script fonts --reload
>> the command
>> mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=Cam\*
>> now lists some fonts.)

> It should normally work out ok.  We also scan some of these system font
> overview files (unless of course the format of those files changed).

>> Maybe I'm doing things all the wrong way 

[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 3/15/2026 4:39 PM, Jim wrote:

On Sun, Mar 15, 2026 at 12:35 (+0100), Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:


On 3/13/2026 3:52 PM, Jim wrote:

On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 23:48 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:



Am 12.03.2026 um 19:00 schrieb Jim:

On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 16:43 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:



Am 12.03.2026 um 15:47 schrieb Jim:

Hi,



I tried to compile that by doing
cd .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math
context math-mkiv.tex
and after some chugging away, context said
tex error   > tex error on line 370 in file 
/usr/local/context/tex/texmf-context/doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math/math-spacing.tex:
 Math error: parameter 'subshiftdown' with id 49 in style 2 is not set



 \math_m_nop
#1->\relax \ifmmode #1\else \normalstartimath 
\usemathstyleparameter \mathematicsparameter \c!mathstyle \expand 
\everyinsidemathematics \relax \begingroup #1\endgroup \normalstopimath
\fi

{\switchtobodyfont [cambria]\math{F_j = \int\nolimits _a^b}
} {Cambria}



The document requires the cambria mth font.



Wolfgang,



thanks.  I found a free download of it, downloaded it and installed it,
mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=\*ambr\*
outputs
identifier   familynamefontname  filename   
subfont   instances



cambriamath  cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathnormalcambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathregular   cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
which I assume is what I expect, but I still get the same error.



Context uses a typescript file to load cambria and expects either
cambria.ttc or cambmath.ttf as file names.



Wolfgang,



thanks.  I'll try renaming the file and see what happens.


I did get further after installing the font file with the right name.  Then
it gave me a similar error because of some other font.

"So many fonts, so little time."



there are various names used for cambria (here i have an official one for
instance independent of a windows installation)



fwiw: i never use the system fonts but use copies in texmf-fonts/data
because then one knows what one gets (read: don't expect me to bother with
issues with system fonts as these can change)


Good point.

Thinking about people who use ConTeXt on multi-user systems (where it might
not be feasible to let everyone put their own fonts in the stand-alone or
TL distribution texmf-fonts/data), would it make sense for ConTeXt to have
a standard place to look for a user's "personal" fonts?


Those users are likely not permitted to use anything the sysadm doesn't 
recognize anyway.



For example, pdftex (reportedly) looks in the directories specified in the
environment variable $T1FONTS (as one example).


That's also preset in the configuration ... I dont' remember ever having 
such a system directly (maybe because I never used system fonts unless 
copied to texmf-fonts).



If ConTeXt used some similar environment variable, then each user could put
their own font collection somewhere under their home directory (for
example) and not need to worry about updating the files inside the
stand-alone distribution, "all" they would have to do is populate their own
font collection, and maybe run some mtxrun command when they add new ones.


Now you make it sound like users buy fonts. Well, tex live kicks out 
files that reference non free fonts so these users are toast anyway.



I know there is OSFONTDIR, but (in my tests) if I specify OSFONTDIR and
then run
 mtxrun --script fonts --list
it doesn't list my fonts in that dir.  For example, after sticking some
Cambria fonts in
 $HOME/data-files/fonts/cambria,
the command
 OSFONTDIR=$HOME/data-files/fonts/cambria mtxrun --script fonts --list 
--all --pattern=Cam\*
doesn't list them.   (Whereas, after copying them into the right place in the
standalone distribution and running


mtxrun --generate

might help


 mtxrun --generate ; mtxrun --script fonts --reload
the command
 mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=Cam\*
now lists some fonts.)


It should normally work out ok. We also scan some of these system font 
overview files (unless of course the format of those files changed).



Maybe I'm doing things all the wrong way (I'm still figuring things out,
please bear with me), but if so I don't know The Right Way.


You'll eventually figure it out ...

Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Jim]

On Sun, Mar 15, 2026 at 12:35 (+0100), Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

> On 3/13/2026 3:52 PM, Jim wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 23:48 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

>>> Am 12.03.2026 um 19:00 schrieb Jim:
 On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 16:43 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> Am 12.03.2026 um 15:47 schrieb Jim:
>> Hi,

>> I tried to compile that by doing
>> cd .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math
>> context math-mkiv.tex
>> and after some chugging away, context said
>>  tex error   > tex error on line 370 in file 
>> /usr/local/context/tex/texmf-context/doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math/math-spacing.tex:
>>  Math error: parameter 'subshiftdown' with id 49 in style 2 is not set

>>   \math_m_nop
>>  #1->\relax \ifmmode #1\else \normalstartimath 
>> \usemathstyleparameter \mathematicsparameter \c!mathstyle \expand 
>> \everyinsidemathematics \relax \begingroup #1\endgroup \normalstopimath
>>  \fi
>>  
>>  {\switchtobodyfont [cambria]\math{F_j = \int\nolimits _a^b}
>>  } {Cambria}

> The document requires the cambria mth font.

 Wolfgang,

 thanks.  I found a free download of it, downloaded it and installed it,
 mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=\*ambr\*
 outputs
identifier   familynamefontname  filename   
 subfont   instances

cambriamath  cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathnormalcambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathregular   cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
 which I assume is what I expect, but I still get the same error.

>>> Context uses a typescript file to load cambria and expects either
>>> cambria.ttc or cambmath.ttf as file names.

>> Wolfgang,

>> thanks.  I'll try renaming the file and see what happens.

I did get further after installing the font file with the right name.  Then
it gave me a similar error because of some other font.

"So many fonts, so little time."


> there are various names used for cambria (here i have an official one for
> instance independent of a windows installation)

> fwiw: i never use the system fonts but use copies in texmf-fonts/data
> because then one knows what one gets (read: don't expect me to bother with
> issues with system fonts as these can change)

Good point.

Thinking about people who use ConTeXt on multi-user systems (where it might
not be feasible to let everyone put their own fonts in the stand-alone or
TL distribution texmf-fonts/data), would it make sense for ConTeXt to have
a standard place to look for a user's "personal" fonts?

For example, pdftex (reportedly) looks in the directories specified in the
environment variable $T1FONTS (as one example).

If ConTeXt used some similar environment variable, then each user could put
their own font collection somewhere under their home directory (for
example) and not need to worry about updating the files inside the
stand-alone distribution, "all" they would have to do is populate their own
font collection, and maybe run some mtxrun command when they add new ones.

I know there is OSFONTDIR, but (in my tests) if I specify OSFONTDIR and
then run
mtxrun --script fonts --list
it doesn't list my fonts in that dir.  For example, after sticking some
Cambria fonts in
$HOME/data-files/fonts/cambria,
the command
OSFONTDIR=$HOME/data-files/fonts/cambria mtxrun --script fonts --list 
--all --pattern=Cam\*  
doesn't list them.   (Whereas, after copying them into the right place in the
standalone distribution and running
mtxrun --generate ; mtxrun --script fonts --reload
the command
mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=Cam\*
now lists some fonts.)

Maybe I'm doing things all the wrong way (I'm still figuring things out,
please bear with me), but if so I don't know The Right Way.

Cheers.
Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 3/15/2026 12:55 PM, Max Chernoff wrote:

Hi Hans,

On Sun, 2026-03-15 at 12:40 +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

(btw, last week at hrabans context workshop we found out that installing
context from texlive is broken and unuseable;


Hmm, sorry, that's unfortunate. The ConTeXt in TL works for me and I
haven't heard any recent complaints, so I'm not entirely sure what's
wrong. If you or Hraban (or anybody else) is able to reproduce the
issue, please either report it on GitHub

 https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/context-packaging

or email me and I'll try and fix it.


When I was show the 'error' it looked like a mismatch between binary and 
macros; Harrald could handle it by some symlink magic. The others just 
went LMTX.


(linux and macos)

Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Hans,

On Sun, 2026-03-15 at 12:40 +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> (btw, last week at hrabans context workshop we found out that installing
> context from texlive is broken and unuseable;

Hmm, sorry, that's unfortunate. The ConTeXt in TL works for me and I
haven't heard any recent complaints, so I'm not entirely sure what's
wrong. If you or Hraban (or anybody else) is able to reproduce the
issue, please either report it on GitHub

https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/context-packaging

or email me and I'll try and fix it.

Thanks,
-- Max
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 3/14/2026 5:09 PM, Jim wrote:


Makes sense.  After Aditya pointed out the file to look in, I see that the
TL and stand-alone files are very different.


oh, great, well ...

(btw, last week at hrabans context workshop we found out that installing 
context from texlive is broken and unuseable; so best use the regular 
lmtx installation when possible)


Hans



-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 3/13/2026 3:52 PM, Jim wrote:

On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 23:48 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:


Am 12.03.2026 um 19:00 schrieb Jim:

On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 16:43 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:



Am 12.03.2026 um 15:47 schrieb Jim:

Hi,



I tried to compile that by doing
cd .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math
context math-mkiv.tex
and after some chugging away, context said
tex error   > tex error on line 370 in file 
/usr/local/context/tex/texmf-context/doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math/math-spacing.tex:
 Math error: parameter 'subshiftdown' with id 49 in style 2 is not set



 \math_m_nop
#1->\relax \ifmmode #1\else \normalstartimath 
\usemathstyleparameter \mathematicsparameter \c!mathstyle \expand 
\everyinsidemathematics \relax \begingroup #1\endgroup \normalstopimath
\fi

{\switchtobodyfont [cambria]\math{F_j = \int\nolimits _a^b}
} {Cambria}



The document requires the cambria mth font.



Wolfgang,



thanks.  I found a free download of it, downloaded it and installed it,
mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=\*ambr\*
outputs
identifier   familynamefontname  filename   
subfont   instances



cambriamath  cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathnormalcambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathregular   cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
which I assume is what I expect, but I still get the same error.



Context uses a typescript file to load cambria and expects either
cambria.ttc or cambmath.ttf as file names.


Wolfgang,

thanks.  I'll try renaming the file and see what happens.


there are various names used for cambria (here i have an official one 
for instance independent of a windows installation)


fwiw: i never use the system fonts but use copies in texmf-fonts/data 
because then one knows what one gets (read: don't expect me to bother 
with issues with system fonts as these can change)


Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 3/14/26 19:10, Jim wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 14, 2026 at 17:46 (+0100), Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:
> […]
>> mklink /J %USERPROFILE%\texmf\texmf-fonts\ directory ^
>> c:\your-origin-font-directory.
> 
> I never use windows, but sometimes people nonetheless ask me windows
> questions, so thanks for that info.  To say nothing of all the other people
> who might see this message.

Windows is a requirement at my work. It is given to me.

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Jim]

On Sat, Mar 14, 2026 at 17:46 (+0100), Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:

> On 3/14/26 17:09, Jim wrote:
>> […]
>> Thanks for the comment about OSFONTDIR... that seems a lot easier than
>> either modifying the texmfcnf.lua file, or copying the files into the
>> stand-alone distribution and updating the font databases.  I'll have to
>> play with that a bit.

> Hi Jim,

> a symlink to the required directory also does the trick:

> ln -s ~/origin-dir/ ~/texmf/texmf-fonts/

> This works for “Linux” (I use this instead of `$OSFONTDIR`).

> It should work for other “Unix” flavors (“macOS” included).

Hi Pablo,

thanks for the information.  I just gave that a try, and after a couple of
commands
mtxrun --generate ; mtxrun --script fonts --reload
mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=Cam\*
finds them, just like before.

> In “Windows”, they are junctions (https://ss64.com/nt/mklink.html), and
> they work the other way around (target directory with extra link name
> comes first):

That figures.  ;-)

> mklink /J %USERPROFILE%\texmf\texmf-fonts\ directory ^
> c:\your-origin-font-directory.

I never use windows, but sometimes people nonetheless ask me windows
questions, so thanks for that info.  To say nothing of all the other people
who might see this message.

Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 3/14/26 17:09, Jim wrote:
> […]
> Thanks for the comment about OSFONTDIR... that seems a lot easier than
> either modifying the texmfcnf.lua file, or copying the files into the
> stand-alone distribution and updating the font databases.  I'll have to
> play with that a bit.

Hi Jim,

a symlink to the required directory also does the trick:

  ln -s ~/origin-dir/ ~/texmf/texmf-fonts/

This works for “Linux” (I use this instead of `$OSFONTDIR`).

It should work for other “Unix” flavors (“macOS” included).

In “Windows”, they are junctions (https://ss64.com/nt/mklink.html), and
they work the other way around (target directory with extra link name
comes first):

  mklink /J %USERPROFILE%\texmf\texmf-fonts\ directory ^
c:\your-origin-font-directory.

Just in case it helps,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Jim]

Hi Max,

On Sat, Mar 14, 2026 at 03:29 (-0700), Max Chernoff via ntg-context wrote:

> On Thu, 2026-03-12 at 15:00 -0300, Jim wrote:
>> I tried the TL2026 context, and that one finds some Cambria files in my
>> system directories.

> Yup, I've configured the ConTeXt in TL to search the system directories
> for font files by default, to be consistent with the other
> engines/formats.

Makes sense.  After Aditya pointed out the file to look in, I see that the
TL and stand-alone files are very different.

>> Where is the config file(s) that tell(s) context where
>> to search for font files?

> Setting the "OSFONTDIR" environment variable is usually the easiest way
> to tell ConTeXt where to look, but as Aditya mentioned, you can also
> modify the texmfcnf.lua files. These are the settings currently used in
> TL:

> https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/context-packaging/blob/c3b461/files/texmfcnf.lua#L181-L187

Thanks for the comment about OSFONTDIR... that seems a lot easier than
either modifying the texmfcnf.lua file, or copying the files into the
stand-alone distribution and updating the font databases.  I'll have to
play with that a bit.

Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Jim,

On Thu, 2026-03-12 at 15:00 -0300, Jim wrote:
> I tried the TL2026 context, and that one finds some Cambria files in my
> system directories.

Yup, I've configured the ConTeXt in TL to search the system directories
for font files by default, to be consistent with the other
engines/formats.

> Where is the config file(s) that tell(s) context where
> to search for font files?

Setting the "OSFONTDIR" environment variable is usually the easiest way
to tell ConTeXt where to look, but as Aditya mentioned, you can also
modify the texmfcnf.lua files. These are the settings currently used in
TL:


https://github.com/gucci-on-fleek/context-packaging/blob/c3b461/files/texmfcnf.lua#L181-L187

Thanks,
-- Max
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Jim]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 23:48 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> Am 12.03.2026 um 19:00 schrieb Jim:
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 16:43 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

>>> Am 12.03.2026 um 15:47 schrieb Jim:
>>> > Hi,

>>> > I tried to compile that by doing
>>> > cd .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math
>>> > context math-mkiv.tex
>>> > and after some chugging away, context said
>>> >   tex error   > tex error on line 370 in file 
>>> > /usr/local/context/tex/texmf-context/doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math/math-spacing.tex:
>>> >  Math error: parameter 'subshiftdown' with id 49 in style 2 is not set

>>> >\math_m_nop
>>> >   #1->\relax \ifmmode #1\else \normalstartimath 
>>> > \usemathstyleparameter \mathematicsparameter \c!mathstyle \expand 
>>> > \everyinsidemathematics \relax \begingroup #1\endgroup \normalstopimath
>>> >   \fi
>>> >   
>>> >   {\switchtobodyfont [cambria]\math{F_j = \int\nolimits _a^b}
>>> >   } {Cambria}

>>> The document requires the cambria mth font.

>> Wolfgang,

>> thanks.  I found a free download of it, downloaded it and installed it,
>> mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=\*ambr\*
>> outputs
>>  identifier   familynamefontname  filename   
>> subfont   instances

>>  cambriamath  cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
>>  cambriamathnormalcambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
>>  cambriamathregular   cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
>> which I assume is what I expect, but I still get the same error.

> Context uses a typescript file to load cambria and expects either
> cambria.ttc or cambmath.ttf as file names.

Wolfgang,

thanks.  I'll try renaming the file and see what happens.

Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Jim]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 17:01 (-0400), Aditya Mahajan wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Mar 2026, Jim wrote:

>> New somewhat related question:
>> --

>> I tried the TL2026 context, and that one finds some Cambria files in my
>> system directories.  Where is the config file(s) that tell(s) context where
>> to search for font files?

> web2c/texmfcnf.lua

Aditya,

thanks very much.  It would have taken me a long time to figure that one out.

Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 12.03.2026 um 19:00 schrieb Jim:

On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 16:43 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:


Am 12.03.2026 um 15:47 schrieb Jim:

Hi,



I tried to compile that by doing
cd .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math
context math-mkiv.tex
and after some chugging away, context said
tex error   > tex error on line 370 in file 
/usr/local/context/tex/texmf-context/doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math/math-spacing.tex:
 Math error: parameter 'subshiftdown' with id 49 in style 2 is not set



 \math_m_nop
#1->\relax \ifmmode #1\else \normalstartimath 
\usemathstyleparameter \mathematicsparameter \c!mathstyle \expand 
\everyinsidemathematics \relax \begingroup #1\endgroup \normalstopimath
\fi

{\switchtobodyfont [cambria]\math{F_j = \int\nolimits _a^b}
} {Cambria}



The document requires the cambria mth font.


Wolfgang,

thanks.  I found a free download of it, downloaded it and installed it,
 mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=\*ambr\*
outputs
identifier   familynamefontname  filename   
subfont   instances

cambriamath  cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathnormalcambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathregular   cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
which I assume is what I expect, but I still get the same error.


Context uses a typescript file to load cambria and expects either 
cambria.ttc or cambmath.ttf as file names.


Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2026, Jim wrote:

> New somewhat related question:
> --
> 
> I tried the TL2026 context, and that one finds some Cambria files in my
> system directories.  Where is the config file(s) that tell(s) context where
> to search for font files?

web2c/texmfcnf.lua


Aditya
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Jim]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2026 at 16:43 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> Am 12.03.2026 um 15:47 schrieb Jim:
>> Hi,

>> I tried to compile that by doing
>> cd .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math
>> context math-mkiv.tex
>> and after some chugging away, context said
>>  tex error   > tex error on line 370 in file 
>> /usr/local/context/tex/texmf-context/doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math/math-spacing.tex:
>>  Math error: parameter 'subshiftdown' with id 49 in style 2 is not set

>>   \math_m_nop
>>  #1->\relax \ifmmode #1\else \normalstartimath 
>> \usemathstyleparameter \mathematicsparameter \c!mathstyle \expand 
>> \everyinsidemathematics \relax \begingroup #1\endgroup \normalstopimath
>>  \fi
>>  
>>  {\switchtobodyfont [cambria]\math{F_j = \int\nolimits _a^b}
>>  } {Cambria}

> The document requires the cambria mth font.

Wolfgang,

thanks.  I found a free download of it, downloaded it and installed it,
mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=\*ambr\*
outputs
identifier   familynamefontname  filename   
subfont   instances

cambriamath  cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathnormalcambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
cambriamathregular   cambriamath   cambriamath   cambria-math.ttf
which I assume is what I expect, but I still get the same error.


Perhaps this isn't worth chasing down and I should just quietly read
mathincontext-paper.pdf.


New somewhat related question:
--

I tried the TL2026 context, and that one finds some Cambria files in my
system directories.  Where is the config file(s) that tell(s) context where
to search for font files?

Thanks.
Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: compiling the math document in .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 12.03.2026 um 15:47 schrieb Jim:

Hi,

I tried to compile that by doing
 cd .../doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math
 context math-mkiv.tex
and after some chugging away, context said
tex error   > tex error on line 370 in file 
/usr/local/context/tex/texmf-context/doc/context/sources/general/manuals/math/math-spacing.tex:
 Math error: parameter 'subshiftdown' with id 49 in style 2 is not set

 \math_m_nop
#1->\relax \ifmmode #1\else \normalstartimath 
\usemathstyleparameter \mathematicsparameter \c!mathstyle \expand 
\everyinsidemathematics \relax \begingroup #1\endgroup \normalstopimath
\fi

{\switchtobodyfont [cambria]\math{F_j = \int\nolimits _a^b}
} {Cambria}


The document requires the cambria mth font.

Wolfgang

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