Re: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-03-02 Thread Hans Hagen
Mats Broberg wrote:
- make inter-column spacing a bit bigger/smaller
- make page slightly larger/smaller
- increse/decrease bodyfont size
- etc
the problem is that one can end up in oscillating
Hans

Wouldn't it be possible to use something like \ballast, in the way it is
used in the ledmac package for LaTeX? 

I don't have the documentation at hand, but if I don't remember wrong,
if e.g. a pagebreak starts oscillating, the value of the \ballast is
subtracted from the set of different values that makes the pagebreak
oscillate.
it depends a bit on what effect one wants to achieve, a local fix, say page 
7-9),may as well spoil the one at page 123-127, which then spoils the toc, which 
in turn results in page 7 being messed up because the content moves to page 8, 
and a figure now ends up on a different side of the spread, and since in that 
doc graphic alignment is page dependent, we get yet more changes  there is 
quote some two pass info going around and although it may look like things are 
ok (by looking are some pages) someplace else in the doc things may have gone 
wrong, which goes unnoticed for a while

Hans
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 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-28 Thread Mikael Persson
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:54:07 +0100, Mats Broberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dear listmembers,
 
 I would say that the risk of getting rivers in text typeset using TeX 
 children is minimum, as long as you choose sensible values for typesize
 and column width. And much, much less than in MS Word, InDesign,
 QuarkXPress etc.
 
 Btw, here are a few 'Typographical Dreams' of mine, regarding ConTeXt:
 
 - Penalty if consecutive lines have the same words typeset exactly above
 each other - e.g. in the beginning of a line, in the middle of the line
 etc. Catches your eye.
 
 - Penalty for a hyphenated word as the last word on a page. And not
 putting it in an \mbox.
 
 - In Swedish, if the last line in a column is the first line in a new
 paragraph, this last line is called simple child of a whore. If the
 first line on a new page is the last line of the preceding page's last
 paragraph, this line is called double child of a whore. Now, in
 InDesign and QuarkXPress you can set the software to move over the
 simple child of a whore to the next page, and, for double child of a
 whore, to move over a few extra lines to the new page. However, this
 leaves you with a page that is one or more lines short. When working in
 these software, you can then slightly, slightly increase the spacing
 between letters on the page (perhaps only a few thousands of an em). If
 you are lucky, one of the preceding paragraph expands just enough for
 its last line move over to a second line, and you're home free. However,
 for book projects hundreds of pages long, this is something you'd want
 to automate. Don't know if it is possible in ConTeXt to automate this,
 but it would be great if it was.
 
 Best regards,
 Mats Broberg
 
 

Hej Mats!

I would like to recommend the interesting document

http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/style.pdf

Mvh, Micke P

PS
Fun to see another swede here on the list
DS
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Re: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-28 Thread h h extern
Mats Broberg wrote:
Btw, here are a few 'Typographical Dreams' of mine, regarding ConTeXt:
- Penalty if consecutive lines have the same words typeset exactly above
each other - e.g. in the beginning of a line, in the middle of the line
etc. Catches your eye.
since it has to do with extending tex ... that one is for patrick gundlach
- Penalty for a hyphenated word as the last word on a page. And not
putting it in an \mbox.
hm, the problem with such things is that when tex breaks the page, the paragraph 
is already set; you're looking for some breed between widow/club and 
hyphenpenalties

- In Swedish, if the last line in a column is the first line in a new
paragraph, this last line is called simple child of a whore. If the
first line on a new page is the last line of the preceding page's last
paragraph, this line is called double child of a whore. Now, in
InDesign and QuarkXPress you can set the software to move over the
simple child of a whore to the next page, and, for double child of a
whore, to move over a few extra lines to the new page. However, this
leaves you with a page that is one or more lines short. When working in
these software, you can then slightly, slightly increase the spacing
between letters on the page (perhaps only a few thousands of an em). If
you are lucky, one of the preceding paragraph expands just enough for
its last line move over to a second line, and you're home free. However,
for book projects hundreds of pages long, this is something you'd want
to automate. Don't know if it is possible in ConTeXt to automate this,
but it would be great if it was.
i did play with strategies and strategy passes long ago; strategies could be
- make inter-column spacing a bit bigger/smaller
- make page slightly larger/smaller
- increse/decrease bodyfont size
- etc
the problem is that one can end up in oscillating
Hans
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  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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RE: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-28 Thread Mats Broberg
 Hej Mats!
 
 I would like to recommend the interesting document
 
 http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/style.pdf
 
 Mvh, Micke P
 
 PS
 Fun to see another swede here on the list
 DS

Thanks - I knew about that manual already. 

Best regards,
Mats Broberg

P.S. Likewise...! D.S.

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Re: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Ciro A. Soto wrote:
The knowlegeable John Culleton said in one of the
lists that he could recognize if a book was typeset
with
MS-word by looking at the rivers and the lack of
but tex is *not* avoiding rivers, since it does not look at it -)
hyphenation. I then checked my 310-page book I am
typesetting with context and not a single line had a
hyphenated word at the end.
what happens when you say:
\en \hyphenatedword{somethingverylong}
when generating a format, are patterns loaded?
if not, make sure that in cont-usr.tex the us hyphenation filename matches the 
one on your system,

ushyph1.tex
ushyph2.tex
ushyphen.tex
hyphen.tex
unfortunately those names change per distribution, year, season, user, blow of 
the winds, etc

[in a next release, already in alpha, you can use different methods, see 
hyphenation document on web site]

Hans
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 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-27 Thread h h extern
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Try this: \showhyphens{hyphenation}
It should print
  Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 2--2
  [] \*10ptrmtf* hy-phen-ation
on your terminal. If it doesn't, ConTeXt refuses the hyphenate
English, possibly because the patterns were not loaded in the
format (in that case, updating your ConTeXt is the easiest
solution).
the idea behind the language file posted some time ago is that we can create a 
testbed;

[i can imagine that taco/patrick work out something for the mirror/wiki that 
unpacks the cont-tmf zip, tests format generation and missing things; kind of 
user download simulation]

also, karl berry (tug, tex live, everything tex) is willing to set up a tex live 
related testbed for testing if that distributions are shipped 'correct', so if 
you have test files ...

Hans
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  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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RE: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-27 Thread Mats Broberg
Ciro A. Soto wrote:

 The knowlegeable John Culleton said in one of the
 lists that he could recognize if a book was typeset
 with
 MS-word by looking at the rivers and the lack of
 hyphenation. I then checked my 310-page book I am
 typesetting with context and not a single line had a
 hyphenated word at the end.
 
 So, my question is: Is it okay?

Oops - sorry for the misreading! I thought you asked if it was
_typographically_ okay - hence my lengthy answer about HJ, Bartels et
al...!

Best regards,
Mats Broberg

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[NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-26 Thread Ciro A. Soto
The knowlegeable John Culleton said in one of the
lists that he could recognize if a book was typeset
with
MS-word by looking at the rivers and the lack of
hyphenation. I then checked my 310-page book I am
typesetting with context and not a single line had a
hyphenated word at the end.

So, my question is: Is it okay? or do I need to set
any parameter to allow hyphenation? 
I do have
\tolerance=1, because I don't like lines longer
than the rest, but I thought I could still get some
hyphenated words. Am I right?

thank you
Ciro

=
==
Ciro A. Soto
Author of
The Guitar Maker. 
An Exploration of Wisdom, Design and Love. Pub. Date: Aug. 2005.

All problems are at the interface. Each one of them has a solution.
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RE: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-26 Thread Mats Broberg
Ciro,

From a purely typographical point of view, a hyphenated word is always
better than excessive space between words in a line (which is more
discernable to the eye). 

However, depending on column width, the language the text is typeset in,
and the algorithm that is used for hyphenation  justification, some
texts can be typeset without very few hyphens. But if a text is typeset
without hyphenation - take a really good look at the word spacing.
Chances are, they are large. BTW, it's easier to see excessive
wordspacing if you hold the page upside down and squint with your eyes.

Ok, here's something for the spacing aficionados: Take a look at The
art of spacing by Bartels (Chicago, 1926). I have it at hand when I'm
writing this. Not one hyphen in the whole book, not one excessive
wordspace - and all last lines in paragraphs ending less than a one or
two ems from the right margin.

Beautiful, and probably mathematically impossible to achieve. If I don't
remember wrong, DEK writes about Bartels in one of his books and
suspects he rewrote the text while handsetting the lines. 

I would agree with that. 

Best regards,
Mats Broberg



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ciro A. Soto
 Sent: den 26 februari 2005 18:08
 To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
 Subject: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation
 
 
 The knowlegeable John Culleton said in one of the
 lists that he could recognize if a book was typeset
 with
 MS-word by looking at the rivers and the lack of
 hyphenation. I then checked my 310-page book I am
 typesetting with context and not a single line had a
 hyphenated word at the end.
 
 So, my question is: Is it okay? or do I need to set
 any parameter to allow hyphenation? 
 I do have
 \tolerance=1, because I don't like lines longer
 than the rest, but I thought I could still get some
 hyphenated words. Am I right?
 
 thank you
 Ciro
 
 =
 ==
 Ciro A. Soto
 Author of
 The Guitar Maker. 
 An Exploration of Wisdom, Design and Love. Pub. Date: Aug. 2005.
 
 All problems are at the interface. Each one of them has a 
 solution. ___
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Re: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-26 Thread Taco Hoekwater
Ciro A. Soto wrote:
So, my question is: Is it okay? or do I need to set
any parameter to allow hyphenation? 
I do have
\tolerance=1, because I don't like lines longer
than the rest, but I thought I could still get some
hyphenated words. Am I right?
Yes, you are right. Assuming you do not have very long lines
and a small body font, it is quite possible that you are a
victim of one of the recent hyphenation-file name confusions
that have been plagueing recent TeX distributions.
Try this: \showhyphens{hyphenation}
It should print
  Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 2--2
  [] \*10ptrmtf* hy-phen-ation
on your terminal. If it doesn't, ConTeXt refuses the hyphenate
English, possibly because the patterns were not loaded in the
format (in that case, updating your ConTeXt is the easiest
solution).
Good luck, Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] lack of hyphenation

2005-02-26 Thread Taco Hoekwater
Ciro A. Soto wrote:
Thank you Taco,
this is what I get. I got a *similar* line
to what you sent, but not the same. Is it ok?
ciro
looks fine, so perhaps you have disabled hyphenation
by using something like \setuptolerance[verytolerant],
or they were truly unnecesary (it is possible)
Taco
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