Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-19 Thread Hans Hagen

On 9/19/2013 4:25 PM, Lars Huttar wrote:

Hans wrote,

Columnsets are rather special and mostly meant for magazine like
documents, where content can span columns, images are explicitly placed
on the grid, etc. For that reason columnset soperate on a rather strict
grid that gets setup based in the lineheight and although content can be
larger, the grid dictates what happens. Balancing is semi automatic and
nearly always demands some tweaks.


In our use of columnsets, we do have content that can span columns (but
we keep it outside of columnsets). We also have images within columns
that are placed in the flow of text via hangarounds. We manually tweak
our column lengths on each page (e.g.
\setupcolumnsetlines[columnset10][1][1][42]), in order to avoid the
worst of the widows and orphans. As you say, balancing requires manual
tweaks too, but it's not that big a burden, since we're already doing
\setupcolumnsetlines for many pages.


Using columnsets for a large document that has to flow automatically is
therefore debatable. Regular multi columns or in mkiv mixed-columns are
a better choice then.


We have tried to port our code to mkiv, but have so far found been
unsuccessful. (But are trying again now, having found new success with
TL2013 mkii.)
Also, we've been unable to find any statement that mkiv is out of beta
status. Moreover, much of the documentation still seems to be oriented
toward mkii. So it's hard to justify much of a time investment in
porting production work to mkiv yet. Can you comment on the official
status of mkiv?


just as we had betas for mkii, we have betas for mkiv .. mkii is already 
frozen for years (apart from very few fixes)


i'm pretty sure that most context users use mkiv and here i only run 
mkii in old workflows that already have been running for years (and will 
continue to do so as long as no fundamental update is needed)


most mkii functionality is present in mkiv (of course some old font 
stuff is obsolete) although there are a few mechanism that due to 
extensions are controlled with different keys (mostly keys like 
'alternative')


unless impossible (or messy) i try to keep mkii command compatibility 
but mkiv has already many more commands and mechanisms than mkii, so 
most in manuals still applies


official status: use mkiv as that's where it all happens


Regarding mixed-columns: I understand it's a rewrite of the old
columns model. My impression is that columns didn't support manual
tweaking of column lengths (like \setupcolumnsetlines). Does
mixed-columns support such a thing? That would be a critical question
for us, as it wouldn't be an option for us to spend time porting to mkiv
and using mixed-columns, if it doesn't allow us to tweak the height of
each column on each page.


i can probably add some height-per-column option but it also depends on 
what height is supposed to do but it's unlikely to happen the next few 
weeks


a  mkiv columnsets implementation .. well, it depends on time and 
motivation (most of such mechanisms i don't use myself so i need good 
reasons to spend time on them, unless i'm looking for a challenge on a 
rainy day)


but ... \column works quite ok in mixed columns


Thanks again for your help and advice.


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-19 Thread Lars Huttar
Hans wrote,
 Columnsets are rather special and mostly meant for magazine like 
 documents, where content can span columns, images are explicitly placed 
 on the grid, etc. For that reason columnset soperate on a rather strict 
 grid that gets setup based in the lineheight and although content can be 
 larger, the grid dictates what happens. Balancing is semi automatic and 
 nearly always demands some tweaks.

In our use of columnsets, we do have content that can span columns (but
we keep it outside of columnsets). We also have images within columns
that are placed in the flow of text via hangarounds. We manually tweak
our column lengths on each page (e.g.
\setupcolumnsetlines[columnset10][1][1][42]), in order to avoid the
worst of the widows and orphans. As you say, balancing requires manual
tweaks too, but it's not that big a burden, since we're already doing
\setupcolumnsetlines for many pages.

 Using columnsets for a large document that has to flow automatically is 
 therefore debatable. Regular multi columns or in mkiv mixed-columns are 
 a better choice then.

We have tried to port our code to mkiv, but have so far found been
unsuccessful. (But are trying again now, having found new success with
TL2013 mkii.)
Also, we've been unable to find any statement that mkiv is out of beta
status. Moreover, much of the documentation still seems to be oriented
toward mkii. So it's hard to justify much of a time investment in
porting production work to mkiv yet. Can you comment on the official
status of mkiv?

Regarding mixed-columns: I understand it's a rewrite of the old
columns model. My impression is that columns didn't support manual
tweaking of column lengths (like \setupcolumnsetlines). Does
mixed-columns support such a thing? That would be a critical question
for us, as it wouldn't be an option for us to spend time porting to mkiv
and using mixed-columns, if it doesn't allow us to tweak the height of
each column on each page.

Thanks again for your help and advice.
Lars

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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-18 Thread Lars Huttar
Regarding sane interlinespace,
Hans wrote,
 ok, but then, an interlinespace is normally around 1.2 times the 
 bodyfontsize

OK. That's helpful.

But notice that in the following example, the interline space that
causes the problem is in the *first* section (where htdp is 12pt and
baselineskip is also 12pt!), while the gap shows up in the *second*
section, whose interlinespace is 2.8ex:

\def\printHtdp{\setbox0\hbox{()} \the\htdp0,\the\baselineskip}


\definecolumnset[columnset1][n=2]

\setupcolumnset[columnset1][distance=5mm,balance=yes]


\starttext


\section{Introduction}


\setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]

\startcolumnset[columnset1]

\printHtdp

\dorecurse {7} { \input knuth }

\stopcolumnset


\section{Bibliography}


\tfxx

\setupinterlinespace[line=2.8ex] %or use 11pt

\startcolumnset[columnset1]

\printHtdp

\dorecurse {10} { \input knuth }

\stopcolumnset


\stoptext


Since the problem can appear a ways after the cause, that makes it an
especially hard problem to track down, especially for someone who is
unaware of the nature of the problem. But even now that we're aware of
what the problem (hopefully) is, we've not been able to fix it in our
real-life document.


We sprinkled in many places the code to show htdp and baselineskip
(\printHtdp). E.g. in the early sections that would putatively cause the
problem, our htdp/baselineskip in 8.60252pt,10.5pt. That's a ratio of
more than 1.2. We have eliminated all the places we could find where the
htdp/baselineskip ratio was less than 1.2, even where there was no text.
But the gap persists.

We have a large and complex document, so there might conceivably be
places where a larger htdp than expected is hiding. Are there any tools
for automatically going through a document and reporting places where
not-sane interlinespace occurs?

Thanks,
Lars

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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-18 Thread Hans Hagen

On 9/18/2013 11:47 PM, Lars Huttar wrote:

Regarding sane interlinespace,
Hans wrote,

ok, but then, an interlinespace is normally around 1.2 times the
bodyfontsize


OK. That's helpful.

But notice that in the following example, the interline space that
causes the problem is in the *first* section (where htdp is 12pt and
baselineskip is also 12pt!), while the gap shows up in the *second*
section, whose interlinespace is 2.8ex:


Columnsets are rather special and mostly meant for magazine like 
documents, where content can span columns, images are explicitly placed 
on the grid, etc. For that reason columnset soperate on a rather strict 
grid that gets setup based in the lineheight and although content can be 
larger, the grid dictates what happens. Balancing is semi automatic and 
nearly always demands some tweaks.


Using columnsets for a large document that has to flow automatically is 
therefore debatable. Regular multi columns or in mkiv mixed-columns are 
a better choice then.


You need to keep in mind that tex has no concept of columns so it is 
faked by using a virtual page nofcolumns * text height.


Anyway, as columnsets are supposed to cooperate with grid mode, any 
messing with the lineheight will interfere. Normally a document has a 
consistent lineheight everywhere.


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-17 Thread Hans Hagen

On 9/17/2013 5:02 PM, Lars Huttar wrote:

Aditya wrote:

Any particular reason you are using columnsets rather than \startcolumns
or \startmixedcolumns. Columnsets are for specialized layout requirements,
and in my experience, mixing columnsets with text that is not in
columnsets is a bit tricky.



Thanks for suggesting a potential workaround.

We do have pretty specialized layout requirements, including figures
(some of which are hangarounds within columns, and some are outside of
columnsets but on the same page) and page-width-centered section
headings that are outside of columnsets.
I suspect that we tried \startcolumns and couldn't get it to work, but I
will definitely try again


ok, but then, an interlinespace is normally around 1.2 times the 
bodyfontsize



I can't find \startmixedcolumns on the contextgarden wiki nor in the
ConTeXt manual. There are references to it on this mailing list, as a
rewrite of the old columns mechanism. I'm reluctant to entrust a big
production project to undocumented features, but at this point, if it
works, we'll probably go with it. I wonder if it's available in mkii as
well as in mkiv?


not in mkii, but it will be the main mkiv continuous multicolumn mode 
(we keep the old columns around for a while) and in due time I will make 
a new columnset implementation (must have some snippets of code 
somewhere but never found time)



\startsetups normal
\setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]
\stopsetups

\startsetups tight
\setupinterlinespace[line=9.3pt]
\stopsetups
\setupmixedcolumns[distance=5mm, balance=yes]

\starttext
\section{Introduction}
\startmixedcolumns[setups=normal]
 \dorecurse {7} { \input knuth }
\stopmixedcolumns

\section{Bibliography}

\startmixedcolumns[setups=tight]
 \dorecurse {10} { \input knuth }
\stopmixedcolumns


Aditya (not sure why the interlinespacing is not working)


At
http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/133586/bug-unwanted-gap-in-2nd-columnset#comment301754_133586,
phg wrote If you want lines to adhere to a tighter line spacing you
will have to set a smaller font size, (the default one is 12pt I think)
e.g. |\setupbodyfont [7pt]| gets you the desired baseline skip and
decent leading. Doesn’t make the gap disappear, though.
I had left font settings out of the minimal example, since they aren't
necessary to exercise the bug.

Thanks again,
Lars


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 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-17 Thread Hans Hagen

On 9/16/2013 11:29 PM, Lars Huttar wrote:

I was advised to report the bug back to this list, with an even more
minimized example.
Here it is below.
This bug occurs in both mkiv and mkii, in the latest versions (current
beta).

|\setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]

\definecolumnset[columnset1][n=2]
\setupcolumnset[columnset1][distance=5mm,balance=yes]

\starttext

\section{Introduction}
\startcolumnset[columnset1]
 \dorecurse {7} { \input knuth }
\stopcolumnset

\section{Bibliography}
\setupinterlinespace[line=9.3pt]
\startcolumnset[columnset1]
 \dorecurse {10} { \input knuth }
\stopcolumnset

\stoptext


Note the gap across both columns on p. 3, about 3/4 of the way down.
Any suggestions for a workaround would be appreciated.


Just wondering ... do you think that the first pages look ok? You mess 
with the interlinespace in a way that will make the outcome never look 
okay. Also, columnsets assume that the interlinespace is sane.


\setbox0\hbox{Tg}\the\htdp0,\the\baselineskip

gives

10.59601pt,9.3pt

so, any line that has a character with ascender and descender will 
enforce a larger than 9.3pt distance + lineskip and mess up any 
prediction cq. heuristics


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-17 Thread Lars Huttar
Aditya wrote:
 Any particular reason you are using columnsets rather than \startcolumns 
 or \startmixedcolumns. Columnsets are for specialized layout requirements, 
 and in my experience, mixing columnsets with text that is not in 
 columnsets is a bit tricky.


Thanks for suggesting a potential workaround.

We do have pretty specialized layout requirements, including figures
(some of which are hangarounds within columns, and some are outside of
columnsets but on the same page) and page-width-centered section
headings that are outside of columnsets.
I suspect that we tried \startcolumns and couldn't get it to work, but I
will definitely try again

I can't find \startmixedcolumns on the contextgarden wiki nor in the
ConTeXt manual. There are references to it on this mailing list, as a
rewrite of the old columns mechanism. I'm reluctant to entrust a big
production project to undocumented features, but at this point, if it
works, we'll probably go with it. I wonder if it's available in mkii as
well as in mkiv?

 \startsetups normal
 \setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]
 \stopsetups

 \startsetups tight
 \setupinterlinespace[line=9.3pt]
 \stopsetups
 \setupmixedcolumns[distance=5mm, balance=yes]

 \starttext
 \section{Introduction}
 \startmixedcolumns[setups=normal]
 \dorecurse {7} { \input knuth }
 \stopmixedcolumns

 \section{Bibliography}

 \startmixedcolumns[setups=tight]
 \dorecurse {10} { \input knuth }
 \stopmixedcolumns


 Aditya (not sure why the interlinespacing is not working)

At
http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/133586/bug-unwanted-gap-in-2nd-columnset#comment301754_133586,
phg wrote If you want lines to adhere to a tighter line spacing you
will have to set a smaller font size, (the default one is 12pt I think)
e.g. |\setupbodyfont [7pt]| gets you the desired baseline skip and
decent leading. Doesn’t make the gap disappear, though.
I had left font settings out of the minimal example, since they aren't
necessary to exercise the bug.

Thanks again,
Lars


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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-17 Thread Hans Hagen

On 9/17/2013 8:57 PM, Lars Huttar wrote:


Can you point me to documentation on the constraints that define what
kind of interlinespace is sane?


the default is 2.8ex which is pretty safe, then there is the ht/dp ratio 
which in some cases has to be adapted to fonts esp when they are 
non-typical



Also, given the goal that For using ConTeXt, no TeX programming skills
and no technical background are needed. Some basic knowledge of
typography and document design will enable you to use the full power of
ConTeXt (http://wiki.contextgarden.net/What_is_ConTeXt), does/could
ConTeXt issue an error when its assumptions are violated?


well, adapting interlinespace is already beyond basic ... if you have 
specifications from someplace else they are supposed to be experts (ok, 
in many case we get weird specs too, but i always tend to ignore those)



\setbox0\hbox{Tg}\the\htdp0,\the\baselineskip

gives

10.59601pt,9.3pt

so, any line that has a character with ascender and descender will
enforce a larger than 9.3pt distance + lineskip and mess up any
prediction cq. heuristics


I can't find any reference defining \htdp0, but I'm guessing it means
the height+depth (where depth means how far descenders extend below the
baseline) of the Tg box.


indeed, \htdp is a convenient macro, you could also add two dimensions 
or use a \dimexpr which is more work



I'm also confused as to why you're adding 9.3pt + lineskip, when in my
limited understanding of TeX, I understood lineskip to be *part* of the
distance between baselines, rather than an additional distance. But
maybe that's not important to the main issue.


\starttext

\showstruts \strut test \par \strut test

\showstruts \strut \ruledhbox{$\sqrt{test}$} \par \strut test

\stoptext

\lineskip (1pt by default) kicks in when the line distance minus 
baselineskip exceeds \lineskiplimit (0pt by default)



I'm trying to formulate a rule for knowing whether interlinespace is sane.
Is it that interlinespace needs to be more than or equal to the maximum
of (height + depth + lineskip) of any line in the text?


\setbox0\hbox{()} \the\htdp0

is the minumum and you'd better add one point at least

bodyfont/baseline : 10/12 12/14.4 etc are ok

Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-17 Thread Lars Huttar
Hans wrote,
 Just wondering ... do you think that the first pages look ok?

Thanks for your response.
By look ok, are you referring to the closeness of the lines of text?
It does seem kind of close, but within acceptable limits, depending on
other constraints; however I'm not really the one to make aesthetic
decisions about the document. I'm just trying to implement what the
customer wants.

Also, the minimal example is stripped down to minimally exercise the
unexplained behavior, so it doesn't reflect the fact that in our actual
document, we reduce the font size in places where we reduce the
interlinespace. In that sense, maybe a less minimal example would serve
the purpose better. I'll work on that, now that I know the font size may
be an integral part of the problem.

 You mess 
 with the interlinespace in a way that will make the outcome never look 
 okay.

I'd like to know more what that means, but I think it's elaborated on
below when you talk about baselineskip.

 Also, columnsets assume that the interlinespace is sane.

Can you point me to documentation on the constraints that define what
kind of interlinespace is sane?

Also, given the goal that For using ConTeXt, no TeX programming skills
and no technical background are needed. Some basic knowledge of
typography and document design will enable you to use the full power of
ConTeXt (http://wiki.contextgarden.net/What_is_ConTeXt), does/could
ConTeXt issue an error when its assumptions are violated?

 \setbox0\hbox{Tg}\the\htdp0,\the\baselineskip

 gives

 10.59601pt,9.3pt

 so, any line that has a character with ascender and descender will 
 enforce a larger than 9.3pt distance + lineskip and mess up any 
 prediction cq. heuristics

I can't find any reference defining \htdp0, but I'm guessing it means
the height+depth (where depth means how far descenders extend below the
baseline) of the Tg box.
I'm also confused as to why you're adding 9.3pt + lineskip, when in my
limited understanding of TeX, I understood lineskip to be *part* of the
distance between baselines, rather than an additional distance. But
maybe that's not important to the main issue.

I'm trying to formulate a rule for knowing whether interlinespace is sane.
Is it that interlinespace needs to be more than or equal to the maximum
of (height + depth + lineskip) of any line in the text?

Thanks again for your help.

Lars

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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-16 Thread Lars Huttar
FYI, I have posted this question on
http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/133586/bug-unwanted-gap-in-2nd-columnset
Marco and phg were able to reproduce the problem, including in the
latest versions.
I don't plan to keep posting in both places, but wanted to leave a
pointer from this thread to the other one.

Regards,
Lars

On 9/13/2013 4:07 PM, Lars Huttar wrote:
 Hello,
 We have a document where a gap occurs in a columnset under certain
 conditions.


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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-16 Thread Lars Huttar
I was advised to report the bug back to this list, with an even more
minimized example.
Here it is below.
This bug occurs in both mkiv and mkii, in the latest versions (current
beta).

|\setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]

\definecolumnset[columnset1][n=2]
\setupcolumnset[columnset1][distance=5mm,balance=yes]

\starttext

\section{Introduction}
\startcolumnset[columnset1]
\dorecurse {7} { \input knuth } 
\stopcolumnset

\section{Bibliography}
\setupinterlinespace[line=9.3pt]
\startcolumnset[columnset1]
\dorecurse {10} { \input knuth }
\stopcolumnset

\stoptext


Note the gap across both columns on p. 3, about 3/4 of the way down.
Any suggestions for a workaround would be appreciated.

Lars

|

On 9/16/2013 2:29 PM, Lars Huttar wrote:
 FYI, I have posted this question on
 http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/133586/bug-unwanted-gap-in-2nd-columnset
 Marco and phg were able to reproduce the problem, including in the
 latest versions.
 I don't plan to keep posting in both places, but wanted to leave a
 pointer from this thread to the other one.

 Regards,
 Lars



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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-16 Thread Aditya Mahajan

On Mon, 16 Sep 2013, Lars Huttar wrote:


I was advised to report the bug back to this list, with an even more
minimized example.
Here it is below.
This bug occurs in both mkiv and mkii, in the latest versions (current
beta).

|\setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]

\definecolumnset[columnset1][n=2]
\setupcolumnset[columnset1][distance=5mm,balance=yes]

\starttext

\section{Introduction}
\startcolumnset[columnset1]
   \dorecurse {7} { \input knuth }
\stopcolumnset

\section{Bibliography}
\setupinterlinespace[line=9.3pt]
\startcolumnset[columnset1]
   \dorecurse {10} { \input knuth }
\stopcolumnset

\stoptext


Note the gap across both columns on p. 3, about 3/4 of the way down.
Any suggestions for a workaround would be appreciated.


Any particular reason you are using columnsets rather than \startcolumns 
or \startmixedcolumns. Columnsets are for specialized layout requirements, 
and in my experience, mixing columnsets with text that is not in 
columnsets is a bit tricky.


\startsetups normal
\setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]
\stopsetups

\startsetups tight
\setupinterlinespace[line=9.3pt]
\stopsetups
\setupmixedcolumns[distance=5mm, balance=yes]

\starttext
\section{Introduction}
\startmixedcolumns[setups=normal]
   \dorecurse {7} { \input knuth }
\stopmixedcolumns

\section{Bibliography}

\startmixedcolumns[setups=tight]
   \dorecurse {10} { \input knuth }
\stopmixedcolumns


Aditya (not sure why the interlinespacing is not working)


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Re: [NTG-context] bug? gap appears in columnset

2013-09-13 Thread Lars Huttar
It should also be mentioned that we need the second section to have a
tighter line spacing than the first, but despite the

\setupinterlinespace[line=9.3pt]

command, and despite the red grid lines being tighter, the text itself
seems to have the same interline spacing as in the first section. How do
we actually change the interline spacing?

Thanks again.

Lars

On 9/13/2013 4:07 PM, Lars Huttar wrote:
 Hello,
 We have a document where a gap occurs in a columnset under certain
 conditions.
 It seems to be a confluence of:

 - 2 sections, each with 2-column columnsets
 - \page[empty] between them
 - the 2nd section has a tighter interline space

 The problem is that on the first page of the second section, a two-line
 gap appears where gridlines 50 and 51 are.

 It may be a coincidence, but 50 is also the number of lines per page in
 the first section. We've found that coincidence to be true even with
 different page and font sizes.

 Can anyone tell us a way to get rid of the gap? We've tried things like
   \setupcolumnsetlines[columnsetbibliography][1][1][-1]
   \setupcolumnsetlines[columnsetbibliography][1][2][-1]
 with various values for the last parameter, but nothing helps.

 Below is a small, self-contained sample.

 Thanks for any help you can give.
 Lars

 Version information:
 This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-0.9998 (TeX Live 2012)
 (format=cont-en 2012.11.14)  13 SEP 2013 11:38
 ConTeXt  ver: 2012.05.30 11:26 MKII  fmt: 2012.11.14  int: english/english


 \showgrid
 \setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]
 \setuplayout[grid=yes]

 \definecolumnset[columnsetIntroduction0][n=2]
 \setupcolumnset[columnsetIntroduction0][distance=5mm,balance=yes]

 \definecolumnset[columnsetbibliography][n=2]
 \setupcolumnset[columnsetbibliography][distance=5mm,balance=yes]

 \starttext

 \section{Introduction}

 \startcolumnset[columnsetIntroduction0]
 % The important thing here is how many columns of text we have.
 \dorecurse {7} { \input knuth }
 \stopcolumnset

 \page[yes] % Always finish the current page
 % If we haven't ended up on an odd page, generate an empty one.
 \ifodd \pageno \else \page[empty] \fi

 \section{Bibliography}
 \setupinterlinespace[line=9.3pt]

 \startcolumnset[columnsetbibliography]
 \dorecurse {140} { \input knuth\par }
 \stopcolumnset

 \stoptext



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