Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 12:59 PM Sebastian Berg wrote: > On Tue, 2018-08-14 at 21:30 -0700, Ralf Gommers wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Charles R Harris < > > charlesr.har...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Peter Creasey < > > >

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2018-08-14 at 21:30 -0700, Ralf Gommers wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Charles R Harris < > charlesr.har...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Peter Creasey < > > p.e.creasey...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > +1 for keeping the same CoC as Scipy,

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On August 15, 2018 06:31:08 Ralf Gommers wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: I prefer that to the proposed modification, short and sweet. This edit to the SciPy CoC has now been merged. It looks to me like we're good to go here and take over the SciPy CoC.

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 10:30 PM, Ralf Gommers wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Charles R Harris < > charlesr.har...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Peter Creasey < >> p.e.creasey...@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >>> +1 for keeping the same CoC as Scipy,

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

+1 Jarrod On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 9:30 PM, Ralf Gommers wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Charles R Harris > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Peter Creasey >> wrote: >>> >>> +1 for keeping the same CoC as Scipy, making a new thing just seems a >>> bigger surface

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Peter Creasey < > p.e.creasey...@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> +1 for keeping the same CoC as Scipy, making a new thing just seems a >> bigger surface area to maintain. Personally I already assumed

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

> > One concern I have is the phrase "explicitly honour" in "we explicitly honour diversity in: age, culture, ...". Honour is a curious word choice. honour is defined as, among other things, "to worship", "high public esteem; fame; glory",

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 5:30 PM, Matthew Harrigan wrote: > It's also key to note the specific phrasing -- it is *diversity* that is >> honored, whereas we would (and do) welcome diverse individuals. >> > > I'm afraid I miss your point. I understand that diversity is what is > being honoured in

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

> > It's also key to note the specific phrasing -- it is *diversity* that is > honored, whereas we would (and do) welcome diverse individuals. > I'm afraid I miss your point. I understand that diversity is what is being honoured in the current CoC, and that is my central issue. My issue is not

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

> On August 4, 2018 00:23:44 Matthew Harrigan > wrote: > >> One concern I have is the phrase "explicitly honour" in "we explicitly >> honour diversity in: age, culture, ...". Honour is a curious word choice. >> honour is defined as, among >> other

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

Hi Matthew, On August 4, 2018 00:23:44 Matthew Harrigan wrote: One concern I have is the phrase "explicitly honour" in "we explicitly honour diversity in: age, culture, ...". Honour is a curious word choice. honour is defined as, among other things, "to worship", "high public esteem; fame;

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

One concern I have is the phrase "explicitly honour" in "we explicitly honour diversity in: age, culture, ...". Honour is a curious word choice. honour is defined as, among other things, "to worship", "high public esteem; fame; glory", and "a source of

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 12:45 PM, Stefan van der Walt wrote: > I'll note that at least the Contributor Covenant is pretty vague about >> enforcement: >> >> """ >> All complaints will be reviewed and investigated and will result in a >> response that is deemed necessary and appropriate to the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

+1 for keeping the same CoC as Scipy, making a new thing just seems a bigger surface area to maintain. Personally I already assumed Scipy's "honour[ing] diversity in..." did not imply any protection of behaviours that violate the CoC *itself*, but if you wanted to be really explicit you could add

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On August 3, 2018 20:51:00 Chris Barker wrote: I'll note that at least the Contributor Covenant is pretty vague about enforcement: """ All complaints will be reviewed and investigated and will result in a response that is deemed necessary and appropriate to the circumstances. """ I'd think

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Nelle Varoquaux wrote: I think what matters in code of conduct is community buy-in and the > discussions around it, more than the document itself. > This is a really good point. Though I think a community could still have that discussion around whether and which

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 11:20 AM, Chris Barker > wrote: > >> Given Jupyter, numpy, scipy, matplotlib?, etc, are all working on a CoC >> -- maybe we could have NumFocus take a lead on this for the whole community? >> > Nelle is right about

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 11:20 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > Given Jupyter, numpy, scipy, matplotlib?, etc, are all working on a CoC -- > maybe we could have NumFocus take a lead on this for the whole community? > or adopt an existing one, like maybe: The Contributor Covenant

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

One other thought: Given Jupyter, numpy, scipy, matplotlib?, etc, are all working on a CoC -- maybe we could have NumFocus take a lead on this for the whole community? I think most (all?) of the NumFocus projects have essentially the same goals in this regard. -CHB On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 8:59 AM, Hameer Abbasi wrote > > > I’ve created a PR, and I’ve kept the language “not too stern”. > https://github.com/scipy/scipy/pull/9109 > Thanks -- for ease of this thread, the sentence Hameer added is: "We expect that you will extend the same courtesy and

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

> On 3. Aug 2018, at 17:44, Ralf Gommers wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Matthew Brett > wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Stefan van der Walt > mailto:stef...@berkeley.edu>> wrote: > > On August 3, 2018 09:50:38 Robert Kern >

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Matthew Brett wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Stefan van der Walt > wrote: > > On August 3, 2018 09:50:38 Robert Kern wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 11:01 PM Robert Kern > wrote: > >>> > >>> Nope, concision is definitely not my

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 3:04 AM, Matthew Brett wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Stefan van der Walt > wrote: > > On August 3, 2018 09:50:38 Robert Kern wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 11:01 PM Robert Kern > wrote: > >>> > >>> Nope, concision is definitely not my

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

Hi, On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Stefan van der Walt wrote: > On August 3, 2018 09:50:38 Robert Kern wrote: >> >> On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 11:01 PM Robert Kern wrote: >>> >>> Nope, concision is definitely not my strength. But I hope I >>> made the argument clear, at least. >> >> >> No, wait.

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

less is more. ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On August 3, 2018 10:35:57 Stefan van der Walt wrote: On August 3, 2018 09:50:38 Robert Kern wrote: On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 11:01 PM Robert Kern wrote: Nope, concision is definitely not my strength. But I hope I made the argument clear, at least. No, wait. I got it: Bad actors use

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On August 3, 2018 09:50:38 Robert Kern wrote: On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 11:01 PM Robert Kern wrote: Nope, concision is definitely not my strength. But I hope I made the argument clear, at least. No, wait. I got it: Bad actors use "diversity of political beliefs" in bad faith as cover for

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 14:58:05 -0700 Nathaniel Smith wrote: > > Now if you see "religion" there, then what does that tell you? Maybe > it means that these people are really excited about protecting > oppressive religions. Or... maybe it means that they're opposed to > anti-semitism, Islamophobia,

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 11:01 PM Robert Kern wrote: > Nope, concision is definitely not my strength. But I hope I > made the argument clear, at least. > No, wait. I got it: Bad actors use "diversity of political beliefs" in bad faith as cover for undermining the goals of the diversity

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

I think I'm going to leave it there for the time being and mute this thread until I get back from vacation. I know that's terribly rude, and you all have my abject apologies. -- Robert Kern ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@python.org

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 6:04 AM Charles R Harris wrote: > I was opposed to having a list in the first place, because the longer such > a list is, the more significant the omissions become. And indeed, the > arguments I have seen for omitting "politics" are that one should be > allowed to

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

> On 28. Jul 2018, at 00:02, Stefan van der Walt wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > A while ago, SciPy (the library) adopted its Code of Conduct: > https://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/dev/conduct/code_of_conduct.html > > We worked hard to make that document friendly, while at the same time >

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > What if someone is wearing a religious symbol? > > If one is concerned about horrible beliefs or opinions, there are a > good deal of them in many religious ("holy") books (*), yet CoCs are > generally meant to prohibit discrimination based

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On 08/02/2018 09:25 AM, Ralf Gommers wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:35 AM, Marten van Kerkwijk > mailto:m.h.vankerkw...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > I think a legalistic focus on the letter rather than the spirit of > the code of conduct is not that helpful (and probably what makes if

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 21:26:35 -0700 Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Ryan May wrote: > > So I hear all the arguments about people feeling unsafe due to some truly > > despicable, discriminatory behavior, and I want absolutely no parts of > > protecting that. However, I also

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:35 AM, Marten van Kerkwijk < m.h.vankerkw...@gmail.com> wrote: > I think a legalistic focus on the letter rather than the spirit of the > code of conduct is not that helpful (and probably what makes if feel US > centric - funny how court systems end up shaping countries).

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 5:57 PM, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:37 AM, Ralf Gommers > wrote: > > > > >> For another perspective on this issue see > >> https://where.coraline.codes/blog/oscon/, where Coraline Ada describes > her > >> reasons for not speaking at OSCON this year

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 10:04 PM, Robert Kern wrote: > On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:35 PM Ryan May wrote: > >> When experts say that something is a bad idea, and when the people who >>> a CoC is supposed to protect says it makes them feel unsafe, I feel >>> like we should listen to that. >>> >>> I

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Robert Kern wrote: > On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:35 PM Ryan May wrote: > >> When experts say that something is a bad idea, and when the people who >>> a CoC is supposed to protect says it makes them feel unsafe, I feel >>> like we should listen to that. >>> >>> I

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

I think a legalistic focus on the letter rather than the spirit of the code of conduct is not that helpful (and probably what makes if feel US centric - funny how court systems end up shaping countries). My preference would be to keep exactly the scipy version, so that at least for these two

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

The "political belief" was recently removed from the Jupyter CoC. One reason for this decision is that *Racism and Sexism are increasingly considered as mainstream "political beliefs"*, and we wanted to make it clear that people can still be sanctioned for e.g. sexist or racist behavior when

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:35 PM Ryan May wrote: > When experts say that something is a bad idea, and when the people who >> a CoC is supposed to protect says it makes them feel unsafe, I feel >> like we should listen to that. >> >> I also thought that the points made in the Jupyter discussion

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Ryan May wrote: > So I hear all the arguments about people feeling unsafe due to some truly > despicable, discriminatory behavior, and I want absolutely no parts of > protecting that. However, I also recognize that we in the U.S. are in a > particularly divisive

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

> > When experts say that something is a bad idea, and when the people who > a CoC is supposed to protect says it makes them feel unsafe, I feel > like we should listen to that. > > I also thought that the points made in the Jupyter discussion thread > made a lot of sense: of course it's possible

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:37 AM, Ralf Gommers wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:12 AM, Nathan Goldbaum > wrote: >> >> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Ralf Gommers >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 12:20 AM, Nathan Goldbaum >>> wrote: I realize this was probably

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

This. Even from a US perspective, we really need to not let political division into even more apparently non-political things. As far as I can tell, the current language seems to be there to specifically avoid that. It isn't there to allow discrimination if someone tries to claim they're making a

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

I agree with Ralf. That thread is more towards a US based separation. Actually we briefly touched upon these on the SciPy side but indeed there was no real discussion. Political beliefs (especially communism in US for a practical example) can offend some people and that's OK because being

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:12 AM, Nathan Goldbaum wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Ralf Gommers > wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 12:20 AM, Nathan Goldbaum >> wrote: >> >>> I realize this was probably brought up in the discussions about the >>> scipy code of conduct which I

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

Hi, On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 4:12 PM, Nathan Goldbaum wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Ralf Gommers wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 12:20 AM, Nathan Goldbaum >> wrote: >>> >>> I realize this was probably brought up in the discussions about the scipy >>> code of conduct

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Ralf Gommers wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 12:20 AM, Nathan Goldbaum > wrote: > >> I realize this was probably brought up in the discussions about the scipy >> code of conduct which I have not looked at, but I’m troubled by the >> inclusion of “political

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 12:20 AM, Nathan Goldbaum wrote: > I realize this was probably brought up in the discussions about the scipy > code of conduct which I have not looked at, but I’m troubled by the > inclusion of “political beliefs” in the document. > It was not brought up explicitly as far

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 4:02 PM, Stefan van der Walt wrote: > Hi everyone, > > A while ago, SciPy (the library) adopted its Code of Conduct: > https://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/dev/conduct/ > code_of_conduct.html > > We worked hard to make that document friendly, while at the same time

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On July 27, 2018 17:04:23 Marten van Kerkwijk wrote: My ideal version would be substantially shorter, maybe just quote the golden rule, but I am happy with the suggestion to just adapt this text. Agreed! There's some basic ground that needs to be covered, though, and the result of

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

I would be happy to adopt the SciPy code of conduct and code of conduct committee both. On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 5:04 PM Marten van Kerkwijk < m.h.vankerkw...@gmail.com> wrote: > My ideal version would be substantially shorter, maybe just quote the > golden rule, but I am happy with the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Marten van Kerkwijk < m.h.vankerkw...@gmail.com> wrote: > My ideal version would be substantially shorter, maybe just quote the > golden rule, but I am happy with the suggestion to just adapt this text. I > particularly appreciate the lack of absolutism in the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

My ideal version would be substantially shorter, maybe just quote the golden rule, but I am happy with the suggestion to just adapt this text. I particularly appreciate the lack of absolutism in the text, and the acknowledgement that it is possible to have a bad day even while not distracting from

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 10:02 PM, Stefan van der Walt wrote: > Hi everyone, > > A while ago, SciPy (the library) adopted its Code of Conduct: > https://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/dev/conduct/code_ > of_conduct.html > > We worked hard to make that document friendly, while at the same time

[Numpy-discussion] Adoption of a Code of Conduct

Hi everyone, A while ago, SciPy (the library) adopted its Code of Conduct: https://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/dev/conduct/code_of_conduct.html We worked hard to make that document friendly, while at the same time stating clearly the kinds of behavior that would and would not be