Re:[nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Shaibal Mitra]

[I tried sending a version of this note earlier today, but it didn't go 
through; I apologize if the earlier version re-emerges from the ether.]

The question is not whether any hybridization at all is occurring, but whether 
hybridization is a plausible explanation for a major change in the average 
appearance of an entire taxon.

>To me it makes no more sense to dismiss hybridization amongst those two 
>species as a mechanism for primary darkening than it does to invoke it.

The hypothesis should not be dismissed, but nor should it be invoked 
uncritically. Instead, let’s do our best to evaluate it on its merits. Despite 
all the deficits in our knowledge, I believe that the hybridization hypothesis 
can be challenged on two fronts: (a) the mechanism’s theoretical ability to 
produce the effect in question (i.e., a major increase in primary pigmentation 
across an entire taxon); and (b) the extent to which we are observing the 
corollary consequences that would be expected if this mechanism were operating 
at a scale sufficient for its efficacy in (a).

Regarding (a), although gene flow is one of four mechanisms that can alter gene 
frequencies in a population (the other three are mutation, selection, and 
random drift), it is not by itself expected to cause huge changes--for instance 
to cause a trait that was previously common to become rare. Much more 
typically, it might introduce a new allele into a population (i.e., raise this 
allele’s frequency from near zero to slightly above zero), thereby potentially 
allowing natural selection to gain traction if the allele proved favorable in 
the new population. Gene flow could easily add some dark-winged birds to a 
white-winged population, thereby causing the white-winged trait to drop from, 
say, 100% to 99%; but in the absence of selection, astonishingly high rates of 
hybridization would be required to transform a whole taxon from >90% 
white-winged to >90% gray-winged—rates that are not only improbable in 
themselves, but which would also produce many other observable consequences.

> A Western birder might find the idea that two similar gull species *not* 
> hybridizing to be alien to their experience, for example.

Consider any example of hybridization that you like. One thing that you will 
notice is that wherever the hybrids are at all common, at least one (and 
usually both) parental types will also be common. Wherever one finds lots of 
Mallard x Black Duck hybrids, one finds hordes of Mallards and Black Ducks. 
Even at the epicenter of Glaucous-winged x Western Gull hybridization, 
Glaucous-winged Gulls are abundant in migration. This brings us to point (b). 
If hybridization with Thayer’s Gulls were occurring on the massive scale 
necessary for flipping a trait value in North American Iceland Gulls, one would 
expect to see a lot of Thayer’s Gulls wherever the hybrids (i.e., Kumlien’s 
Gulls, under this view) were common. This is manifestly not the case along the 
New England and Long Island coast, where the frequency of convincingly 
Thayer’s-like birds is so close to zero that it is actually shocking—one would 
think we’d see more than we do strictly via vagrancy, even if there were zero 
hybridization going on.

Heavily pigmented Iceland Gulls are not in any way anomalous. They are the norm 
in coastal northeastern North America, and their increasing occurrence in 
Europe may be due to vagrancy, or it may be due in part to gene flow and 
natural selection acting on Greenland-breeding populations. What reason is 
there to doubt that, by and large, these pigmented birds return north and breed 
with each other, that their offspring are also pigmented, and that they all 
continue to live and act (and sound—thanks, Pete) like Iceland Gulls? The 
alternative is to posit that, upon returning north, the palest ones are 
systematically knocked up by randy, vagrating Thayer’s Gulls that, despite 
their depraved penchant for miscegenation, still assiduously conform to 
traditional Thayer’s Gull migratory routes, eschewing the wintering areas of 
their bewildered mates and progeny!

Shai Mitra
Bay Shore





The Campaign for CSI: For College and 
Community

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Please submit your observations to eBird:
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Re:[nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Shaibal Mitra]

[I tried sending a version of this note earlier today, but it didn't go 
through; I apologize if the earlier version re-emerges from the ether.]

The question is not whether any hybridization at all is occurring, but whether 
hybridization is a plausible explanation for a major change in the average 
appearance of an entire taxon.

To me it makes no more sense to dismiss hybridization amongst those two 
species as a mechanism for primary darkening than it does to invoke it.

The hypothesis should not be dismissed, but nor should it be invoked 
uncritically. Instead, let’s do our best to evaluate it on its merits. Despite 
all the deficits in our knowledge, I believe that the hybridization hypothesis 
can be challenged on two fronts: (a) the mechanism’s theoretical ability to 
produce the effect in question (i.e., a major increase in primary pigmentation 
across an entire taxon); and (b) the extent to which we are observing the 
corollary consequences that would be expected if this mechanism were operating 
at a scale sufficient for its efficacy in (a).

Regarding (a), although gene flow is one of four mechanisms that can alter gene 
frequencies in a population (the other three are mutation, selection, and 
random drift), it is not by itself expected to cause huge changes--for instance 
to cause a trait that was previously common to become rare. Much more 
typically, it might introduce a new allele into a population (i.e., raise this 
allele’s frequency from near zero to slightly above zero), thereby potentially 
allowing natural selection to gain traction if the allele proved favorable in 
the new population. Gene flow could easily add some dark-winged birds to a 
white-winged population, thereby causing the white-winged trait to drop from, 
say, 100% to 99%; but in the absence of selection, astonishingly high rates of 
hybridization would be required to transform a whole taxon from 90% 
white-winged to 90% gray-winged—rates that are not only improbable in 
themselves, but which would also produce many other observable consequences.

 A Western birder might find the idea that two similar gull species *not* 
 hybridizing to be alien to their experience, for example.

Consider any example of hybridization that you like. One thing that you will 
notice is that wherever the hybrids are at all common, at least one (and 
usually both) parental types will also be common. Wherever one finds lots of 
Mallard x Black Duck hybrids, one finds hordes of Mallards and Black Ducks. 
Even at the epicenter of Glaucous-winged x Western Gull hybridization, 
Glaucous-winged Gulls are abundant in migration. This brings us to point (b). 
If hybridization with Thayer’s Gulls were occurring on the massive scale 
necessary for flipping a trait value in North American Iceland Gulls, one would 
expect to see a lot of Thayer’s Gulls wherever the hybrids (i.e., Kumlien’s 
Gulls, under this view) were common. This is manifestly not the case along the 
New England and Long Island coast, where the frequency of convincingly 
Thayer’s-like birds is so close to zero that it is actually shocking—one would 
think we’d see more than we do strictly via vagrancy, even if there were zero 
hybridization going on.

Heavily pigmented Iceland Gulls are not in any way anomalous. They are the norm 
in coastal northeastern North America, and their increasing occurrence in 
Europe may be due to vagrancy, or it may be due in part to gene flow and 
natural selection acting on Greenland-breeding populations. What reason is 
there to doubt that, by and large, these pigmented birds return north and breed 
with each other, that their offspring are also pigmented, and that they all 
continue to live and act (and sound—thanks, Pete) like Iceland Gulls? The 
alternative is to posit that, upon returning north, the palest ones are 
systematically knocked up by randy, vagrating Thayer’s Gulls that, despite 
their depraved penchant for miscegenation, still assiduously conform to 
traditional Thayer’s Gull migratory routes, eschewing the wintering areas of 
their bewildered mates and progeny!

Shai Mitra
Bay Shore





The Campaign for CSI: For College and 
Communityhttp://www.csi.cuny.edu/foundation/

--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--

Re: [nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Peter Morris]

Hi all, 

Sadly, I am not nearly well read enough on the subject of Iceland/Thayer's Gull 
but I am thoroughly enjoying reading the thoughts of others.

Is there any evidence to suggest that the variation in wingtip pigmentation is 
clinal throughout the breeding range of 'Kumlien's Gull'? 

With regards to the question of vocalization, the following link has some 
interesting thoughts although not specifically relating to darker vs. paler 
winged Iceland Gulls.

http://birdingfrontiers.com/2014/01/09/calls-of-thayers-kumliens-and-iceland-gulls/


All the best,

Pete




On Thursday, January 16, 2014 9:36 AM, Shaibal Mitra 
 wrote:
 
Given that this conversation found me four times independently in one day, I 
think it's worth at least collecting some of the threads, if not measuring them 
or tying them together!
 
My perception is that the Iceland Gulls I see on Long Island and in coastal 
southern New England are very variable in terms of pigmentation (e.g., wingtip 
pattern and intensity and iris color) but not in other ways (e.g., size, 
structure, seasonality, habitat preference, and feeding habits). Even mantle 
color is close to uniform, ranging from just barely paler than American Herring 
Gull and Ring-bill to noticeably paler than these reference species.
 
When I say that they are relatively uniform and distinctive in terms of size, 
structure, seasonality, habitat preference, and feeding habits, it's important 
to calibrate this within the range of options occupied by large white-headed 
gulls as a group, all of which are incredibly similar overall and broadly 
overlapping in all the ecological variables. Thus, I'm not saying that Iceland 
Gulls never eat garbage like Glaucous Gulls, never eat ducks like Great 
Black-backed Gulls, never sit in parking lots like Herring Gulls, never dabble 
plankton like Ring-billed Gulls, or never hunt pelagic fish like Lesser 
Black-backed Gulls. Most of these species do most of these things from time to 
time, but each has its own distinctive niche around here, and my perception is 
that Iceland Gull's niche is just as distinctive as that of any of the other 
regular species.
 
When I say that large white-headed gulls are incredibly similar in overall size 
and structure, I mean to point out that the variation within species is very 
large relative to that among species. One way of illustrating this is to 
consider that basically all the possible combinations of basic size, mantle 
color, leg color, and eye color are occupied by at least one species, and that 
people have had a hard time deciding what to do when populations from different 
parts of the world show similar combinations: Kelp Gull was for a long time 
considered a subspecies of Lesser Black-backed Gull (!), Armenian Gull is 
perversely similar to California Gull, etc. Perhaps the most extreme and vexing 
example of this phenomenon involves American Herring Gull and European Herring 
Gull, which, although basically identical as adults, are apparently not closely 
related.
 
In view of all this, our Iceland Gulls seem very distinctive and stable to me, 
in every way but one (or two): wingtip pigmentation (and maybe iris 
pigmentation).
 
The reason that I don't call these birds "Kumlien's Gulls" is that to do so 
would be to imply that we regularly see or expect to see any non-kumlieni 
Iceland Gulls. I do not believe that nominate Iceland Gulls occur here 
regularly (an odd vagrant from time to time is possible but would not be 
identifiable), nor do I think that, among our Iceland Gulls, those with paler 
wingtips are more closely related to nominate birds, or that those with darker 
wingtips owe this to Thayer's or Herring or other ancestry. As described above, 
it is always possible that we could be tricked from time to time by some 
completely different species or hybrid combination that happens to line up with 
a similar character combination, but this should sort out under the weight of 
long-term evidence.
 
Because we have a series of carefully written books, we know not only that this 
variability in wingtip pigmentation has been around for more than a hundred 
years, but also that the pigmentation distribution has changed rather markedly 
over that time. Writing in 1923, Griscom clearly implies that the Iceland Gulls 
that he perceived as regular on Long Island had white wingtips. This is because 
he explicitly cites one specimen and one sight record of Kumlien's Gull, 
proving that observers were aware of and looking for the possibility of wingtip 
pigmentation. By 1964, Bull described a very complex situation which defied 
simple summary, but in which it is clear that Iceland Gull was perceived to 
have increased in overall frequency, and that both "white-winged" and 
"gray-winged" individuals were well represented.
 
Nowadays, it is clear to me that the white-winged end of the distribution is 
much scarcer than it was previously (although it is still encountered fairly 
regularly).
 

RE: [nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Shaibal Mitra]

Given that this conversation found me four times independently in one day, I 
think it's worth at least collecting some of the threads, if not measuring them 
or tying them together!

My perception is that the Iceland Gulls I see on Long Island and in coastal 
southern New England are very variable in terms of pigmentation (e.g., wingtip 
pattern and intensity and iris color) but not in other ways (e.g., size, 
structure, seasonality, habitat preference, and feeding habits). Even mantle 
color is close to uniform, ranging from just barely paler than American Herring 
Gull and Ring-bill to noticeably paler than these reference species.

When I say that they are relatively uniform and distinctive in terms of size, 
structure, seasonality, habitat preference, and feeding habits, it's important 
to calibrate this within the range of options occupied by large white-headed 
gulls as a group, all of which are incredibly similar overall and broadly 
overlapping in all the ecological variables. Thus, I'm not saying that Iceland 
Gulls never eat garbage like Glaucous Gulls, never eat ducks like Great 
Black-backed Gulls, never sit in parking lots like Herring Gulls, never dabble 
plankton like Ring-billed Gulls, or never hunt pelagic fish like Lesser 
Black-backed Gulls. Most of these species do most of these things from time to 
time, but each has its own distinctive niche around here, and my perception is 
that Iceland Gull's niche is just as distinctive as that of any of the other 
regular species.

When I say that large white-headed gulls are incredibly similar in overall size 
and structure, I mean to point out that the variation within species is very 
large relative to that among species. One way of illustrating this is to 
consider that basically all the possible combinations of basic size, mantle 
color, leg color, and eye color are occupied by at least one species, and that 
people have had a hard time deciding what to do when populations from different 
parts of the world show similar combinations: Kelp Gull was for a long time 
considered a subspecies of Lesser Black-backed Gull (!), Armenian Gull is 
perversely similar to California Gull, etc. Perhaps the most extreme and vexing 
example of this phenomenon involves American Herring Gull and European Herring 
Gull, which, although basically identical as adults, are apparently not closely 
related.

In view of all this, our Iceland Gulls seem very distinctive and stable to me, 
in every way but one (or two): wingtip pigmentation (and maybe iris 
pigmentation).

The reason that I don't call these birds "Kumlien's Gulls" is that to do so 
would be to imply that we regularly see or expect to see any non-kumlieni 
Iceland Gulls. I do not believe that nominate Iceland Gulls occur here 
regularly (an odd vagrant from time to time is possible but would not be 
identifiable), nor do I think that, among our Iceland Gulls, those with paler 
wingtips are more closely related to nominate birds, or that those with darker 
wingtips owe this to Thayer's or Herring or other ancestry. As described above, 
it is always possible that we could be tricked from time to time by some 
completely different species or hybrid combination that happens to line up with 
a similar character combination, but this should sort out under the weight of 
long-term evidence.

Because we have a series of carefully written books, we know not only that this 
variability in wingtip pigmentation has been around for more than a hundred 
years, but also that the pigmentation distribution has changed rather markedly 
over that time. Writing in 1923, Griscom clearly implies that the Iceland Gulls 
that he perceived as regular on Long Island had white wingtips. This is because 
he explicitly cites one specimen and one sight record of Kumlien's Gull, 
proving that observers were aware of and looking for the possibility of wingtip 
pigmentation. By 1964, Bull described a very complex situation which defied 
simple summary, but in which it is clear that Iceland Gull was perceived to 
have increased in overall frequency, and that both "white-winged" and 
"gray-winged" individuals were well represented.

Nowadays, it is clear to me that the white-winged end of the distribution is 
much scarcer than it was previously (although it is still encountered fairly 
regularly).

Thus, wingtip pigmentation in North American Iceland Gulls is and has been 
variable, and it has shifted toward the darker end over a century of 
observation. And why shouldn't it have done so?--characters evolve all the 
time. The notion that this shift has been a consequence of hybridization 
between white-winged, glaucoides-like birds and Thayer's Gulls, although widely 
accepted among birders, seems like special pleading to me, and much less 
plausible than the simple alternative of character evolution within a variable 
population.

This is because the frequency of a trait of hybrid origin is not expected to 
exceed the rate of 

RE: [nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Shaibal Mitra]

Given that this conversation found me four times independently in one day, I 
think it's worth at least collecting some of the threads, if not measuring them 
or tying them together!

My perception is that the Iceland Gulls I see on Long Island and in coastal 
southern New England are very variable in terms of pigmentation (e.g., wingtip 
pattern and intensity and iris color) but not in other ways (e.g., size, 
structure, seasonality, habitat preference, and feeding habits). Even mantle 
color is close to uniform, ranging from just barely paler than American Herring 
Gull and Ring-bill to noticeably paler than these reference species.

When I say that they are relatively uniform and distinctive in terms of size, 
structure, seasonality, habitat preference, and feeding habits, it's important 
to calibrate this within the range of options occupied by large white-headed 
gulls as a group, all of which are incredibly similar overall and broadly 
overlapping in all the ecological variables. Thus, I'm not saying that Iceland 
Gulls never eat garbage like Glaucous Gulls, never eat ducks like Great 
Black-backed Gulls, never sit in parking lots like Herring Gulls, never dabble 
plankton like Ring-billed Gulls, or never hunt pelagic fish like Lesser 
Black-backed Gulls. Most of these species do most of these things from time to 
time, but each has its own distinctive niche around here, and my perception is 
that Iceland Gull's niche is just as distinctive as that of any of the other 
regular species.

When I say that large white-headed gulls are incredibly similar in overall size 
and structure, I mean to point out that the variation within species is very 
large relative to that among species. One way of illustrating this is to 
consider that basically all the possible combinations of basic size, mantle 
color, leg color, and eye color are occupied by at least one species, and that 
people have had a hard time deciding what to do when populations from different 
parts of the world show similar combinations: Kelp Gull was for a long time 
considered a subspecies of Lesser Black-backed Gull (!), Armenian Gull is 
perversely similar to California Gull, etc. Perhaps the most extreme and vexing 
example of this phenomenon involves American Herring Gull and European Herring 
Gull, which, although basically identical as adults, are apparently not closely 
related.

In view of all this, our Iceland Gulls seem very distinctive and stable to me, 
in every way but one (or two): wingtip pigmentation (and maybe iris 
pigmentation).

The reason that I don't call these birds Kumlien's Gulls is that to do so 
would be to imply that we regularly see or expect to see any non-kumlieni 
Iceland Gulls. I do not believe that nominate Iceland Gulls occur here 
regularly (an odd vagrant from time to time is possible but would not be 
identifiable), nor do I think that, among our Iceland Gulls, those with paler 
wingtips are more closely related to nominate birds, or that those with darker 
wingtips owe this to Thayer's or Herring or other ancestry. As described above, 
it is always possible that we could be tricked from time to time by some 
completely different species or hybrid combination that happens to line up with 
a similar character combination, but this should sort out under the weight of 
long-term evidence.

Because we have a series of carefully written books, we know not only that this 
variability in wingtip pigmentation has been around for more than a hundred 
years, but also that the pigmentation distribution has changed rather markedly 
over that time. Writing in 1923, Griscom clearly implies that the Iceland Gulls 
that he perceived as regular on Long Island had white wingtips. This is because 
he explicitly cites one specimen and one sight record of Kumlien's Gull, 
proving that observers were aware of and looking for the possibility of wingtip 
pigmentation. By 1964, Bull described a very complex situation which defied 
simple summary, but in which it is clear that Iceland Gull was perceived to 
have increased in overall frequency, and that both white-winged and 
gray-winged individuals were well represented.

Nowadays, it is clear to me that the white-winged end of the distribution is 
much scarcer than it was previously (although it is still encountered fairly 
regularly).

Thus, wingtip pigmentation in North American Iceland Gulls is and has been 
variable, and it has shifted toward the darker end over a century of 
observation. And why shouldn't it have done so?--characters evolve all the 
time. The notion that this shift has been a consequence of hybridization 
between white-winged, glaucoides-like birds and Thayer's Gulls, although widely 
accepted among birders, seems like special pleading to me, and much less 
plausible than the simple alternative of character evolution within a variable 
population.

This is because the frequency of a trait of hybrid origin is not expected to 
exceed the rate of 

Re: [nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Peter Morris]

Hi all, 

Sadly, I am not nearly well read enough on the subject of Iceland/Thayer's Gull 
but I am thoroughly enjoying reading the thoughts of others.

Is there any evidence to suggest that the variation in wingtip pigmentation is 
clinal throughout the breeding range of 'Kumlien's Gull'? 

With regards to the question of vocalization, the following link has some 
interesting thoughts although not specifically relating to darker vs. paler 
winged Iceland Gulls.

http://birdingfrontiers.com/2014/01/09/calls-of-thayers-kumliens-and-iceland-gulls/


All the best,

Pete




On Thursday, January 16, 2014 9:36 AM, Shaibal Mitra 
shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu wrote:
 
Given that this conversation found me four times independently in one day, I 
think it's worth at least collecting some of the threads, if not measuring them 
or tying them together!
 
My perception is that the Iceland Gulls I see on Long Island and in coastal 
southern New England are very variable in terms of pigmentation (e.g., wingtip 
pattern and intensity and iris color) but not in other ways (e.g., size, 
structure, seasonality, habitat preference, and feeding habits). Even mantle 
color is close to uniform, ranging from just barely paler than American Herring 
Gull and Ring-bill to noticeably paler than these reference species.
 
When I say that they are relatively uniform and distinctive in terms of size, 
structure, seasonality, habitat preference, and feeding habits, it's important 
to calibrate this within the range of options occupied by large white-headed 
gulls as a group, all of which are incredibly similar overall and broadly 
overlapping in all the ecological variables. Thus, I'm not saying that Iceland 
Gulls never eat garbage like Glaucous Gulls, never eat ducks like Great 
Black-backed Gulls, never sit in parking lots like Herring Gulls, never dabble 
plankton like Ring-billed Gulls, or never hunt pelagic fish like Lesser 
Black-backed Gulls. Most of these species do most of these things from time to 
time, but each has its own distinctive niche around here, and my perception is 
that Iceland Gull's niche is just as distinctive as that of any of the other 
regular species.
 
When I say that large white-headed gulls are incredibly similar in overall size 
and structure, I mean to point out that the variation within species is very 
large relative to that among species. One way of illustrating this is to 
consider that basically all the possible combinations of basic size, mantle 
color, leg color, and eye color are occupied by at least one species, and that 
people have had a hard time deciding what to do when populations from different 
parts of the world show similar combinations: Kelp Gull was for a long time 
considered a subspecies of Lesser Black-backed Gull (!), Armenian Gull is 
perversely similar to California Gull, etc. Perhaps the most extreme and vexing 
example of this phenomenon involves American Herring Gull and European Herring 
Gull, which, although basically identical as adults, are apparently not closely 
related.
 
In view of all this, our Iceland Gulls seem very distinctive and stable to me, 
in every way but one (or two): wingtip pigmentation (and maybe iris 
pigmentation).
 
The reason that I don't call these birds Kumlien's Gulls is that to do so 
would be to imply that we regularly see or expect to see any non-kumlieni 
Iceland Gulls. I do not believe that nominate Iceland Gulls occur here 
regularly (an odd vagrant from time to time is possible but would not be 
identifiable), nor do I think that, among our Iceland Gulls, those with paler 
wingtips are more closely related to nominate birds, or that those with darker 
wingtips owe this to Thayer's or Herring or other ancestry. As described above, 
it is always possible that we could be tricked from time to time by some 
completely different species or hybrid combination that happens to line up with 
a similar character combination, but this should sort out under the weight of 
long-term evidence.
 
Because we have a series of carefully written books, we know not only that this 
variability in wingtip pigmentation has been around for more than a hundred 
years, but also that the pigmentation distribution has changed rather markedly 
over that time. Writing in 1923, Griscom clearly implies that the Iceland Gulls 
that he perceived as regular on Long Island had white wingtips. This is because 
he explicitly cites one specimen and one sight record of Kumlien's Gull, 
proving that observers were aware of and looking for the possibility of wingtip 
pigmentation. By 1964, Bull described a very complex situation which defied 
simple summary, but in which it is clear that Iceland Gull was perceived to 
have increased in overall frequency, and that both white-winged and 
gray-winged individuals were well represented.
 
Nowadays, it is clear to me that the white-winged end of the distribution is 
much scarcer than it was previously (although it is still encountered 

Re: [nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Phil Jeffrey]

As far as the literature goes, K.M. Olsen and H. Larrson "Gulls of North
America, Europe and Asia" show an adult Kumlein's "Iceland" Gull with
extensive black in the primaries in photo 275 on page 223 and over the page
on 224 photo 276 shows an adult with pale eyes.

Now the whole thing just comes down to just how much thayeri we consider
being present in a Kumlein's Gull with that much black in the wingtips, but
that's probably about as fruitful as debating the length of a piece of
string.

Phil Jeffrey


On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Mike  wrote:

> Coincidentally, on the same day that I photographed the classic Kumliens
> Gull at Iron Pier Beach, I also photo'd an adult with black in the
> wingtips. That bird was on Artist Lake in Middle Island, also in Suffolk
> County. Photo at
> http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11913883496/sizes/m/
> In addition, that bird had pale yellow eyes, a characteristic I've never
> noticed on an adult Kumliens.
> http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11973681755/sizes/m/
>
> For comparison purposes, here is the Iron Pier Beach bird.
> http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11913257573/sizes/m/
>
> Mike Cooper
> Ridge, LI NY
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 15, 2014, at 7:04 PM, Steve Walter  wrote:
>
> Pictures relating to the following are at
> http://www.stevewalternature.com/
>
> It was good to hear Mike Cooper's January 12 report that the presumably
> same
> Iceland Gull is back and doing well at Iron Pier Beach. I photographed this
> bird on January 7, 2012 (lower left) and as an immature February 16, 2009,
> making it over 5 years old now. Mike's report was timely in that I consider
> this to be the prototypical Kumlien's Gull, with gray in the wingtips, and
> I
> referred to it for comparison to a surprising looking individual at Jones
> Beach West End Sunday (wing, upper right). The markings in its wings were
> black and a bit more extensive than the Iron Pier bird, and its head a bit
> more angular than might be expected. I discussed this with Shai Mitra, who
> indicated that a bird matching my description has been seen there
> sporadically over the years. In fact, he produced a picture he took January
> 2, 2006 (top left). If indeed the same bird, it would be at least 11 years
> old now. But on top of that, he mentioned seeing a black marked individual
> in Suffolk county. The next day, Sean Sime reported a black marked bird in
> Brooklyn. What's up with that? I haven't seen literature mentioning the
> existence of Iceland Gulls with black in the wingtips. The absence of
> markings is, however, mentioned for a tiny percentage, as seen in the bird
> photographed at Point Lookout February 24, 2013 (bottom right).
> Appreciating
> a variability in Kumlien's Gulls that they may not get enough credit for.
>
>
> Steve Walter
> Bayside, NY
>
>
> --
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Re: [nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Mike]

Coincidentally, on the same day that I photographed the classic Kumliens Gull 
at Iron Pier Beach, I also photo'd an adult with black in the wingtips. That 
bird was on Artist Lake in Middle Island, also in Suffolk County. Photo at
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11913883496/sizes/m/
In addition, that bird had pale yellow eyes, a characteristic I've never 
noticed on an adult Kumliens. 
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11973681755/sizes/m/

For comparison purposes, here is the Iron Pier Beach bird.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11913257573/sizes/m/

Mike Cooper
Ridge, LI NY

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 15, 2014, at 7:04 PM, Steve Walter  wrote:

> Pictures relating to the following are at http://www.stevewalternature.com/ 
> 
> It was good to hear Mike Cooper's January 12 report that the presumably same
> Iceland Gull is back and doing well at Iron Pier Beach. I photographed this
> bird on January 7, 2012 (lower left) and as an immature February 16, 2009,
> making it over 5 years old now. Mike's report was timely in that I consider
> this to be the prototypical Kumlien's Gull, with gray in the wingtips, and I
> referred to it for comparison to a surprising looking individual at Jones
> Beach West End Sunday (wing, upper right). The markings in its wings were
> black and a bit more extensive than the Iron Pier bird, and its head a bit
> more angular than might be expected. I discussed this with Shai Mitra, who
> indicated that a bird matching my description has been seen there
> sporadically over the years. In fact, he produced a picture he took January
> 2, 2006 (top left). If indeed the same bird, it would be at least 11 years
> old now. But on top of that, he mentioned seeing a black marked individual
> in Suffolk county. The next day, Sean Sime reported a black marked bird in
> Brooklyn. What's up with that? I haven't seen literature mentioning the
> existence of Iceland Gulls with black in the wingtips. The absence of
> markings is, however, mentioned for a tiny percentage, as seen in the bird
> photographed at Point Lookout February 24, 2013 (bottom right). Appreciating
> a variability in Kumlien's Gulls that they may not get enough credit for.
> 
> 
> Steve Walter
> Bayside, NY  
> 
> 
> --
> 
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
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> 
> Please submit your observations to eBird:
> http://ebird.org/content/ebird/
> 
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Re: [nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Mike]

Coincidentally, on the same day that I photographed the classic Kumliens Gull 
at Iron Pier Beach, I also photo'd an adult with black in the wingtips. That 
bird was on Artist Lake in Middle Island, also in Suffolk County. Photo at
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11913883496/sizes/m/
In addition, that bird had pale yellow eyes, a characteristic I've never 
noticed on an adult Kumliens. 
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11973681755/sizes/m/

For comparison purposes, here is the Iron Pier Beach bird.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11913257573/sizes/m/

Mike Cooper
Ridge, LI NY

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 15, 2014, at 7:04 PM, Steve Walter swalte...@verizon.net wrote:

 Pictures relating to the following are at http://www.stevewalternature.com/ 
 
 It was good to hear Mike Cooper's January 12 report that the presumably same
 Iceland Gull is back and doing well at Iron Pier Beach. I photographed this
 bird on January 7, 2012 (lower left) and as an immature February 16, 2009,
 making it over 5 years old now. Mike's report was timely in that I consider
 this to be the prototypical Kumlien's Gull, with gray in the wingtips, and I
 referred to it for comparison to a surprising looking individual at Jones
 Beach West End Sunday (wing, upper right). The markings in its wings were
 black and a bit more extensive than the Iron Pier bird, and its head a bit
 more angular than might be expected. I discussed this with Shai Mitra, who
 indicated that a bird matching my description has been seen there
 sporadically over the years. In fact, he produced a picture he took January
 2, 2006 (top left). If indeed the same bird, it would be at least 11 years
 old now. But on top of that, he mentioned seeing a black marked individual
 in Suffolk county. The next day, Sean Sime reported a black marked bird in
 Brooklyn. What's up with that? I haven't seen literature mentioning the
 existence of Iceland Gulls with black in the wingtips. The absence of
 markings is, however, mentioned for a tiny percentage, as seen in the bird
 photographed at Point Lookout February 24, 2013 (bottom right). Appreciating
 a variability in Kumlien's Gulls that they may not get enough credit for.
 
 
 Steve Walter
 Bayside, NY  
 
 
 --
 
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Re: [nysbirds-l] About Iceland Gulls

[Phil Jeffrey]

As far as the literature goes, K.M. Olsen and H. Larrson Gulls of North
America, Europe and Asia show an adult Kumlein's Iceland Gull with
extensive black in the primaries in photo 275 on page 223 and over the page
on 224 photo 276 shows an adult with pale eyes.

Now the whole thing just comes down to just how much thayeri we consider
being present in a Kumlein's Gull with that much black in the wingtips, but
that's probably about as fruitful as debating the length of a piece of
string.

Phil Jeffrey


On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Mike mike...@optonline.net wrote:

 Coincidentally, on the same day that I photographed the classic Kumliens
 Gull at Iron Pier Beach, I also photo'd an adult with black in the
 wingtips. That bird was on Artist Lake in Middle Island, also in Suffolk
 County. Photo at
 http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11913883496/sizes/m/
 In addition, that bird had pale yellow eyes, a characteristic I've never
 noticed on an adult Kumliens.
 http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11973681755/sizes/m/

 For comparison purposes, here is the Iron Pier Beach bird.
 http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/35575873@N02/11913257573/sizes/m/

 Mike Cooper
 Ridge, LI NY

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jan 15, 2014, at 7:04 PM, Steve Walter swalte...@verizon.net wrote:

 Pictures relating to the following are at
 http://www.stevewalternature.com/

 It was good to hear Mike Cooper's January 12 report that the presumably
 same
 Iceland Gull is back and doing well at Iron Pier Beach. I photographed this
 bird on January 7, 2012 (lower left) and as an immature February 16, 2009,
 making it over 5 years old now. Mike's report was timely in that I consider
 this to be the prototypical Kumlien's Gull, with gray in the wingtips, and
 I
 referred to it for comparison to a surprising looking individual at Jones
 Beach West End Sunday (wing, upper right). The markings in its wings were
 black and a bit more extensive than the Iron Pier bird, and its head a bit
 more angular than might be expected. I discussed this with Shai Mitra, who
 indicated that a bird matching my description has been seen there
 sporadically over the years. In fact, he produced a picture he took January
 2, 2006 (top left). If indeed the same bird, it would be at least 11 years
 old now. But on top of that, he mentioned seeing a black marked individual
 in Suffolk county. The next day, Sean Sime reported a black marked bird in
 Brooklyn. What's up with that? I haven't seen literature mentioning the
 existence of Iceland Gulls with black in the wingtips. The absence of
 markings is, however, mentioned for a tiny percentage, as seen in the bird
 photographed at Point Lookout February 24, 2013 (bottom right).
 Appreciating
 a variability in Kumlien's Gulls that they may not get enough credit for.


 Steve Walter
 Bayside, NY


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