Re: [Opencompute-networking] CBW AP minimum hardware/OS specs

[David Duffey]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:34 PM, Carlos Cardenas  wrote:

> David,
>
> I think what you are describing are some good points on the resource
> constraints on the WAPs.
>
> However, saying that using ONIE increases your disk storage by 1.5GB is
> over the top.
>

Hi Carlos, the 2GB statement / recommended minimum requirement did not come
from me nor was it in reference to Canonical / Ubuntu.  On the call I
reported 512MB of storage recommended minimum requirement for Ubuntu Core.


> For example, take a look at the Edgecore 4600, it's an old PPC/BCM Apollo2
> 1G switch with 1GB of Flash and 2GB of RAM and one of the first switches to
> support ONIE.  Grant it, it's more than the current WAPs but ONIE/NOS
> functionality is just fine (even during installation).  ONIE is just 4MB on
> this box.
>
> I think what you are describing (limitations and constraints) is an
> artifact with the Ubuntu installer more than anything.  Would you agree?
>

No, the _Ubuntu_ installer does not have this problem.

To split hairs, the current onie-installer that installs Ubuntu has this
limitation/constraints but is not unique to Ubuntu.  (Again, this was NOT
brought up by Canonical/Ubuntu, but am following up to say that it affects
the onie-installer for Ubuntu as well).

And yes, ONIE is a requirement for OCP hardware. (Until such time something
> better replaces it)
>

I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot-pole :)


>
>
>
>
>
> +--+
> Carlos
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:09 AM, David Duffey  > wrote:
>
>>
>> On the CBW call yesterday it was asked what specs the operating systems
>> would target for APs and there was a range of feedback from 512M of storage
>> (Ubuntu Core) to 2G of storage (including ONIE).  Ubuntu Core itself
>> recommends 512M of storage and 256M of ram (including OpenWRT.snap), but
>> requires more when using ONIE, probably similar to other solutions
>> mentioned on the call.  I went back and looked into it a bit more so for
>> those interested in the numbers ...
>>
>> In theory we could do something as low as 128M of storage, but it would
>> be extremely tight and not allow for expected / normal behavior.  In the
>> case of Ubuntu Core you would lose the functionality of being able to do
>> atomic transnational updates with roll-backs.  It would force you into a
>> single-function, non-extensible, firmware-like experience.  In addition,
>> this is "in theory" and would require additional engineering work to get to
>> that small (Ubuntu Core installed is about 150M now depending on the target
>> platform).
>>
>> From the Ubuntu Core Side, about 150M+ is used by the kernel.snap and
>> os.snap (roughly 50/50).  In order to do transactional updates with
>> rollback of these two snaps, double that to 300M+ for the base
>> distribution.  Then you'll want to leave some room to install applications
>> and additional functionality, getting us to the nice round number of 512M.
>>
>> For reference, the OpenWrt.snap package is 3M in size.  You can install
>> that by running
>>   "sudo snap install --devmode --edge openwrt"
>>
>> I have been doing this on a Rasberry Pi3 Ubuntu Core image and it has
>> been working well.  Once installed it does not take any additional space
>> (it is a compressed squashfs).  Double that to 6M for updates/rollbacks and
>> a few KB for local configuration, etc.  This is small because it leverages
>> the running Ubuntu Core kernel.
>>
>> To give another example of disk space usage, installing nmap.deb on
>> classic Ubuntu takes up about 30MB of disk space including
>> unique-to-only-nmap dependencies.  Installing nmap.snap takes up about 6MB
>> of diskspace (including all dependencies).  So for most environments you'll
>> use/need less disk space with Ubuntu Core, including add-on software, than
>> classic Linux despite the inclusion of dependencies into the snap.
>>
>> Images will start to show up here: http://cdimage.ubuntu.co
>> m/ubuntu-core/xenial/daily-preinstalled/current/
>>
>> If you want Pi3 images they will show up above "soon", or e-mail me and I
>> can point you to where they are currently hosted, and I can also provide
>> you scripts to convert Ubuntu Core images to ONIE installable-images.
>> Anyone can start building kernel snaps, Ubuntu Core images, snaps, and ONIE
>> compatible images today.
>>
>> 256M memory + 512M storage minimum recommendations for Ubuntu assumes
>> locally installed or PXE-installed.  This is currently how we have been
>> installing on wifi/AP devices (developer focused devices like the Pi3 or
>> enterprise devices like the Dell IoT Gateway).
>>
>> If using ONIE there are a couple of additional requirements, you will
>> need space for the ONIE kernel, install environment, etc, on disk.  The
>> onie-installer as currently written downloads the NOS image to memory,
>> expands it, then writes to disk.  We need about 750MB of free usable memory
>> (after ONIE), so at least ~1G of 

Re: [Opencompute-networking] CBW AP minimum hardware/OS specs

[Carlos Cardenas]

David,

I think what you are describing are some good points on the resource
constraints on the WAPs.

However, saying that using ONIE increases your disk storage by 1.5GB is
over the top.

For example, take a look at the Edgecore 4600, it's an old PPC/BCM Apollo2
1G switch with 1GB of Flash and 2GB of RAM and one of the first switches to
support ONIE.  Grant it, it's more than the current WAPs but ONIE/NOS
functionality is just fine (even during installation).  ONIE is just 4MB on
this box.

I think what you are describing (limitations and constraints) is an
artifact with the Ubuntu installer more than anything.  Would you agree?

And yes, ONIE is a requirement for OCP hardware. (Until such time something
better replaces it)





+--+
Carlos

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:09 AM, David Duffey 
wrote:

>
> On the CBW call yesterday it was asked what specs the operating systems
> would target for APs and there was a range of feedback from 512M of storage
> (Ubuntu Core) to 2G of storage (including ONIE).  Ubuntu Core itself
> recommends 512M of storage and 256M of ram (including OpenWRT.snap), but
> requires more when using ONIE, probably similar to other solutions
> mentioned on the call.  I went back and looked into it a bit more so for
> those interested in the numbers ...
>
> In theory we could do something as low as 128M of storage, but it would be
> extremely tight and not allow for expected / normal behavior.  In the case
> of Ubuntu Core you would lose the functionality of being able to do atomic
> transnational updates with roll-backs.  It would force you into a
> single-function, non-extensible, firmware-like experience.  In addition,
> this is "in theory" and would require additional engineering work to get to
> that small (Ubuntu Core installed is about 150M now depending on the target
> platform).
>
> From the Ubuntu Core Side, about 150M+ is used by the kernel.snap and
> os.snap (roughly 50/50).  In order to do transactional updates with
> rollback of these two snaps, double that to 300M+ for the base
> distribution.  Then you'll want to leave some room to install applications
> and additional functionality, getting us to the nice round number of 512M.
>
> For reference, the OpenWrt.snap package is 3M in size.  You can install
> that by running
>   "sudo snap install --devmode --edge openwrt"
>
> I have been doing this on a Rasberry Pi3 Ubuntu Core image and it has been
> working well.  Once installed it does not take any additional space (it is
> a compressed squashfs).  Double that to 6M for updates/rollbacks and a few
> KB for local configuration, etc.  This is small because it leverages the
> running Ubuntu Core kernel.
>
> To give another example of disk space usage, installing nmap.deb on
> classic Ubuntu takes up about 30MB of disk space including
> unique-to-only-nmap dependencies.  Installing nmap.snap takes up about 6MB
> of diskspace (including all dependencies).  So for most environments you'll
> use/need less disk space with Ubuntu Core, including add-on software, than
> classic Linux despite the inclusion of dependencies into the snap.
>
> Images will start to show up here: http://cdimage.ubuntu.co
> m/ubuntu-core/xenial/daily-preinstalled/current/
>
> If you want Pi3 images they will show up above "soon", or e-mail me and I
> can point you to where they are currently hosted, and I can also provide
> you scripts to convert Ubuntu Core images to ONIE installable-images.
> Anyone can start building kernel snaps, Ubuntu Core images, snaps, and ONIE
> compatible images today.
>
> 256M memory + 512M storage minimum recommendations for Ubuntu assumes
> locally installed or PXE-installed.  This is currently how we have been
> installing on wifi/AP devices (developer focused devices like the Pi3 or
> enterprise devices like the Dell IoT Gateway).
>
> If using ONIE there are a couple of additional requirements, you will need
> space for the ONIE kernel, install environment, etc, on disk.  The
> onie-installer as currently written downloads the NOS image to memory,
> expands it, then writes to disk.  We need about 750MB of free usable memory
> (after ONIE), so at least ~1G of memory but I have not tested this myself
> and may need more as all the switches I've ONIE-installed to have had more
> than this.  In theory this could be reduced if we ported the native
> OS installer streaming-to-disk functionality to ONIE (instead of using the
> ONIE template we based off of).
>
> I think it is fair to point out that ONIE is one supported bootloader for
> OCP hardware but it is not a requirement.
>
> David
>
> --
> David Duffey
> +1-512-850-6776 (work), +1-512-287-4289 (work fax)
>
> ___
> opencompute-networking mailing list
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.opencompute.org/mailman/options/opencompute-
> networking
>
> opencompute-networking@lists.opencompute.org
> 

[Opencompute-networking] CBW AP minimum hardware/OS specs

[David Duffey]

On the CBW call yesterday it was asked what specs the operating systems
would target for APs and there was a range of feedback from 512M of storage
(Ubuntu Core) to 2G of storage (including ONIE).  Ubuntu Core itself
recommends 512M of storage and 256M of ram (including OpenWRT.snap), but
requires more when using ONIE, probably similar to other solutions
mentioned on the call.  I went back and looked into it a bit more so for
those interested in the numbers ...

In theory we could do something as low as 128M of storage, but it would be
extremely tight and not allow for expected / normal behavior.  In the case
of Ubuntu Core you would lose the functionality of being able to do atomic
transnational updates with roll-backs.  It would force you into a
single-function, non-extensible, firmware-like experience.  In addition,
this is "in theory" and would require additional engineering work to get to
that small (Ubuntu Core installed is about 150M now depending on the target
platform).

>From the Ubuntu Core Side, about 150M+ is used by the kernel.snap and
os.snap (roughly 50/50).  In order to do transactional updates with
rollback of these two snaps, double that to 300M+ for the base
distribution.  Then you'll want to leave some room to install applications
and additional functionality, getting us to the nice round number of 512M.

For reference, the OpenWrt.snap package is 3M in size.  You can install
that by running
  "sudo snap install --devmode --edge openwrt"

I have been doing this on a Rasberry Pi3 Ubuntu Core image and it has been
working well.  Once installed it does not take any additional space (it is
a compressed squashfs).  Double that to 6M for updates/rollbacks and a few
KB for local configuration, etc.  This is small because it leverages the
running Ubuntu Core kernel.

To give another example of disk space usage, installing nmap.deb on classic
Ubuntu takes up about 30MB of disk space including unique-to-only-nmap
dependencies.  Installing nmap.snap takes up about 6MB of diskspace
(including all dependencies).  So for most environments you'll use/need
less disk space with Ubuntu Core, including add-on software, than classic
Linux despite the inclusion of dependencies into the snap.

Images will start to show up here: http://cdimage.ubuntu.
com/ubuntu-core/xenial/daily-preinstalled/current/

If you want Pi3 images they will show up above "soon", or e-mail me and I
can point you to where they are currently hosted, and I can also provide
you scripts to convert Ubuntu Core images to ONIE installable-images.
Anyone can start building kernel snaps, Ubuntu Core images, snaps, and ONIE
compatible images today.

256M memory + 512M storage minimum recommendations for Ubuntu assumes
locally installed or PXE-installed.  This is currently how we have been
installing on wifi/AP devices (developer focused devices like the Pi3 or
enterprise devices like the Dell IoT Gateway).

If using ONIE there are a couple of additional requirements, you will need
space for the ONIE kernel, install environment, etc, on disk.  The
onie-installer as currently written downloads the NOS image to memory,
expands it, then writes to disk.  We need about 750MB of free usable memory
(after ONIE), so at least ~1G of memory but I have not tested this myself
and may need more as all the switches I've ONIE-installed to have had more
than this.  In theory this could be reduced if we ported the native
OS installer streaming-to-disk functionality to ONIE (instead of using the
ONIE template we based off of).

I think it is fair to point out that ONIE is one supported bootloader for
OCP hardware but it is not a requirement.

David

-- 
David Duffey
+1-512-850-6776 (work), +1-512-287-4289 (work fax)
___
opencompute-networking mailing list
Unsubscribe: http://lists.opencompute.org/mailman/options/opencompute-networking

opencompute-networking@lists.opencompute.org
http://lists.opencompute.org/mailman/listinfo/opencompute-networking