Regarding the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE

2012-06-20 Thread Sam Heard
Hi Anthanasios

I think time has shown that this is probably an area of over engineering 
in openEHR. All archetypes are now ITEM_TREE and could be clusters.

If we think of these as providing constraint on an underlying cluster - 
ITEM_LIST is a cluster of ELEMENTs and ITEM_TABLE sets up a set of 
clusters to provide the Information structure of an addressable table.

There is a place for ITEM_LIST and ITEM_TABLE but the other issue is 
these constraints might be brought to bear at any point in an 
information hierarchy.

I have proposed in version 2 of the RM that we make these 
specialisations of CLUSTER as a constraint statement. That would ensure 
backward compatibility.

Cheers, Sam

On 16/06/2012 1:25 AM, Athanasios Anastasiou wrote:
 Hello everyone

 I am sending this email to clarify the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE in
 relation to other structures (such as HISTORY and EVENT) both from the
 point of view of EHR semantics as well as the computational view.

 My problem in one line is that i can't understand if ITEM_STRUCTURE
 are there to ensure that their content is interpreted properly
 semantically or they really do what they mean (i.e. they represent
 tables, lists, trees that have to be populated as such).

 A related question is also this one:

 Is it possible that a C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE constraint pointing to an
 ITEM_LIST will have upper_unbounded=True?

 If yes, then ITEM_LIST would have to be dynamically expanding (and this
 complicates things a little bit but...that's life)...If no, then the
 contents of ITEM_LIST can be considered static (yay!) and you only need
 to know that this is an ITEM_LIST for interpretation purposes (which of
 course is KEY when you come across an ITEM_TREE)

 This will help me in two points:
 a) Clarify the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE and use it properly in archetypes
 and templates
 b) Be able to assign widgets properly (and later read data off them)
 when constructing a GUI.

 A few more notes are available at the end of this message

 All the best
 Athanasios Anastasiou



 What i understand but would like to verify is that ITEM_STRUCTURE do
 what they say they do, i.e an ITEM_LIST represents a dynamic list
 (constrained by some C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE) and an ITEM_SINGLE
 representsjust one entry (constrained by some C_SINGLE_ATTRIBUTE).

 But i am a little bit confused for two reasons:

 a) by what is meant by HISTORYT.

 HISTORY already implies A list of events with the type of the list
 being (point or interval)EVENTT which could imply A [single item or
 table] of ITEM_STRUCTURE OR A [list,tree] of ITEM_STRUCTUREand
 this is where it gets confusing.

 Does that mean that all of the following are valid? (with respect to
 HISTORYT)

 *) a dynamic list of events containing dynamic lists of item structure
 (the history.events can expand and so can the item structures held by
 events)

 *N1) a dynamic list of events containing static lists of item structure
 (events can expand, but each event is supposed to simply contain a list
 of items that is actually fixed in size).

 (dynamic and static expanded for the following lines as well)
 *) A list of trees
 *) a list of tables
 *) a list of single values (this is the most intuitive thingFor
 example, a time series represented as a history of point events of
 single_value...)


 b) by the explanation given in the specs
 With reference to (*N1) above:
 The example that is given in the spec for ITEM_LIST is that of parts of
 an address. This is what leads me to believe that ITEM_LIST is not
 supposed to be a dynamic list but just something THAT IS TO BE
 INTERPRETED AS A LIST but from a computational point of view is just a
 list. I really do hope this makes sense. (I have gone through section 6
 in data_structures.pdf and that again points to ITEM_STRUCTURE being
 used for interpretation rather than definition :-/)

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Regarding the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE

2012-06-20 Thread Ian McNicoll
Hi Athanasios,

Just to back up what Sam has said, experience has shown that it is
best practice to model every top-level archetype structure as
ITEM_TREE to allow for maximum flexibility to develop the model in the
future without breaking backward compatibility, and as Sam has said
there appears to be good consensus that it would be better to replace
ITEM_STRUCTURE  with CLUSTER in the next generation of the RM. There
will definitely still be aspects of the archetyped structures inside
that CLUSTER (via a child CLUSTER ) that are best represented as
simple lists or as Tables, but this is best done by applying some sort
of design constraint on the cluster, rather than using a separate
Table class.

e.g. for a possible Visual Acuity archetype

data
  Cluster  Laterality (As Table pattern with row names carried as
Run-time name constraints Left eye, Right eye , Both eyes)
   Element Low level acuity
   Element Snellen
   Element ETDRS
   Element Measurement distance
 Element Mode
 Element Correction

This lets express a tabular structure at a much more granular level
than with ITEM_STRUCTURE sub-classes which in th example above would
have to apply to the whole data structure

In summary, you can safely assume that we will only be modelling with
ITEM_TREE for the forseeable future.

Ian



On 20 June 2012 11:50, Sam Heard sam.heard at oceaninformatics.com wrote:
 Hi Anthanasios

 I think time has shown that this is probably an area of over engineering in
 openEHR. All archetypes are now ITEM_TREE and could be clusters.

 If we think of these as providing constraint on an underlying cluster -
 ITEM_LIST is a cluster of ELEMENTs and ITEM_TABLE sets up a set of clusters
 to provide the Information structure of an addressable table.

 There is a place for ITEM_LIST and ITEM_TABLE but the other issue is these
 constraints might be brought to bear at any point in an information
 hierarchy.

 I have proposed in version 2 of the RM that we make these specialisations of
 CLUSTER as a constraint statement. That would ensure backward compatibility.

 Cheers, Sam


 On 16/06/2012 1:25 AM, Athanasios Anastasiou wrote:

 Hello everyone

 I am sending this email to clarify the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE in
 relation to other structures (such as HISTORY and EVENT) both from the
 point of view of EHR semantics as well as the computational view.

 My problem in one line is that i can't understand if ITEM_STRUCTURE
 are there to ensure that their content is interpreted properly
 semantically or they really do what they mean (i.e. they represent
 tables, lists, trees that have to be populated as such).

 A related question is also this one:

 Is it possible that a C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE constraint pointing to an
 ITEM_LIST will have upper_unbounded=True?

 If yes, then ITEM_LIST would have to be dynamically expanding (and this
 complicates things a little bit but...that's life)...If no, then the
 contents of ITEM_LIST can be considered static (yay!) and you only need
 to know that this is an ITEM_LIST for interpretation purposes (which of
 course is KEY when you come across an ITEM_TREE)

 This will help me in two points:
 a) Clarify the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE and use it properly in archetypes
 and templates
 b) Be able to assign widgets properly (and later read data off them)
 when constructing a GUI.

 A few more notes are available at the end of this message

 All the best
 Athanasios Anastasiou



 What i understand but would like to verify is that ITEM_STRUCTURE do
 what they say they do, i.e an ITEM_LIST represents a dynamic list
 (constrained by some C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE) and an ITEM_SINGLE
 representsjust one entry (constrained by some C_SINGLE_ATTRIBUTE).

 But i am a little bit confused for two reasons:

 a) by what is meant by HISTORYT.

 HISTORY already implies A list of events with the type of the list
 being (point or interval)EVENTT which could imply A [single item or
 table] of ITEM_STRUCTURE OR A [list,tree] of ITEM_STRUCTUREand
 this is where it gets confusing.

 Does that mean that all of the following are valid? (with respect to
 HISTORYT)

 *) a dynamic list of events containing dynamic lists of item structure
 (the history.events can expand and so can the item structures held by
 events)

 *N1) a dynamic list of events containing static lists of item structure
 (events can expand, but each event is supposed to simply contain a list
 of items that is actually fixed in size).

 (dynamic and static expanded for the following lines as well)
 *) A list of trees
 *) a list of tables
 *) a list of single values (this is the most intuitive thingFor
 example, a time series represented as a history of point events of
 single_value...)


 b) by the explanation given in the specs
 With reference to (*N1) above:
 The example that is given in the spec for ITEM_LIST is that of parts of
 an address. This is what leads me to believe that ITEM_LIST is not
 supposed to be a dynamic list but just 

Regarding the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE

2012-06-20 Thread Thomas Beale

See openEHR 2.x RM candidates A-3 and A4 here 
http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/spec/openEHR+2.x+RM+proposals+-+lower+information+model.

On 20/06/2012 11:50, Sam Heard wrote:
 Hi Anthanasios

 I think time has shown that this is probably an area of over 
 engineering in openEHR. All archetypes are now ITEM_TREE and could be 
 clusters.

 If we think of these as providing constraint on an underlying cluster 
 - ITEM_LIST is a cluster of ELEMENTs and ITEM_TABLE sets up a set of 
 clusters to provide the Information structure of an addressable table.

 There is a place for ITEM_LIST and ITEM_TABLE but the other issue is 
 these constraints might be brought to bear at any point in an 
 information hierarchy.

 I have proposed in version 2 of the RM that we make these 
 specialisations of CLUSTER as a constraint statement. That would 
 ensure backward compatibility.
 *
 * 
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An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGENT, is it possible?

2012-06-20 Thread Ian McNicoll
Hi Pablo,

I am just catching up with some of these discussions.

Although in theory all OBSERVATIONS must also have associated ACTIONS
to record the execution of the process, in practice this is not
necessary or the Action will refer to a group of Observations e.g. the
Action to a request to Take Vital Signs measurements. Even if this
is recorded as part of nursing workflow, it is unlikely that each
individual Vital sign will need to have its ACTION recorded.

My priority is to ensure that the information required to support the
'real' clinical process is always available to the person reviewing
the record. So if device details are important to the clinical
interpretation of the record, we should ensure that they are part of
the OBSERVATION. The associated ACTION may be important for monitoring
care delivery but it rarely affects clinical interpretation.

The complexity of healthcare, differing use cases between unplanned
and workflowed care, primary data entry vs. messaged summaries, and
the presence or absence of a device registry, are always going to make
these decisions difficult. It is certainly possible (and cleaner) to
have references to external entities rather than them being modelled
in-line but it causes other difficulties in complicating archetype
visualisation for clinical review and of course, de-referencing for
messaging purposes.

I do agree that it would be useful if CLUSTER archetypes could be
reused between the DEMOGRAPHIC and EHR models. In fact is it quite
easy to hack the ADL to change one to another just by reaching the
EHR/DEMOGRAPHIC model name in the archetypeID but it would be better
if the tools just ignored the model part of the id.

Ian


On 17 June 2012 17:48, pablo pazos pazospablo at hotmail.com wrote:
 Hi Gustavo,

 As Heather pointed out, the solution seems to be to reference the internal
 structure of a device (or any other demographic archetype) through a
 CLUSTER. But I think those demographic concepts should be also modelled as
 complete, separate demographic archetypes, referencing the same internal
 structure (CLUSTER). This allow us (developers) to create functionalities
 for searching and processing on demographic archetypes.

 About the internals of a test, I think most often includes both ACTION and
 ?OBSERVATION, because an ACTION could be used when you need to record
 information about the execution itself (being or not a clinical intervention
 on the patient, e.g. the recording of the device used to make the test
 should be part of the ACTION not of the OBSERVATION), then the
 OBSERVATION(s) could hold the information about the test result or
 information about clinical findings during the test. Then the whole record
 of a test execution should be recorded into a COMPOSITION that references
 those ACTION(s) and OBSERVATION(s).

 The INSTRUCTION of a test could reference to a device that should be used on
 the test, but during the test maybe another device was used, and that should
 be part of the ACTION that executes the INSTRUCTION.

 Does this makes sense to you? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 My student detected some oftalmologic concepts that are not in the CKM,
 maybe I can put you both in contact to collaborate on the modelling of those
 concepts.

 --
 Kind regards,
 Ing. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez
 LinkedIn: http://uy.linkedin.com/in/pablopazosgutierrez
 Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/
 Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos

 
 From: gbacelar at gmail.com
 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:03:15 +0100
 Subject: Re: An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGENT, is it possible?
 To: openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org


 Hi Pablo,
 I'm an ophthalmologist and would be gladful to help.

 There are some issues about the archetype class and the nature of the test.
 As it is a study test it must be considered the existence ?of an
 intervention. If it does not include, so the most appropriate would be to
 record as an OBSERVATION archetype for the test. If it includes an
 intervention, then the most appropriate is to record as ACTION. For both
 situations?use the Device CLUSTER on the CKM to record the device,
 remembering this archetype is not adequate to record a substance
 (e.g.?fluorescein).

 To record the device that should be used for the test?at an INSTRUCTION
 archetype, also consider the?element Description of Procedure?of
 Procedure Request?archetype on CKM, which could be used to specify the
 device.

 I hope it was helpful.
 --
 Gustavo Bacelar
 MD + MBA + Med Informatics
 gustavobacelar.com
 +351 91 203 2353
 +55 71 8831-2860
 Skype: gustavobacelar


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 openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org
 

Regarding the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE

2012-06-20 Thread Athanasios Anastasiou
Hello everyone

Thank you very much for your responses Sam  Ian, they were helpful. In 
any case the changes you describe do not seem to be reducing the 
flexibility of the model. This definitely also helped me in clarifying 
the use of ITEM_TABLE.

There is another part to that question though that is still not clear 
and if you don't mind i'd like to ask a bit more specifically about:

a) Is an ITEM_STRUCTURE static?
(I think that it's static but i would like to verify that because, as 
described in the previous message i can't decide just from the 
specification)
In other words, when you specify an ITEM_STRUCTURE in the archetype 
editor then you simply denote that you would like your set of defined 
ITEMs (elements, quantities, counts, etc) to be _interpreted_ as a LIST, 
TABLE, TREE but that data structure itself will not have to expand (at 
run time) necessarily to a list, table or tree (Is that correct?).


b)HISTORY holds a list of EVENTITEM_STRUCTURE (parametrising the data 
attribute here). This particular list COULD BE dynamic (Is that 
correct?). In the visual acuity example provided by Ian earlier: That 
would be a HISTORY of 1 POINT_EVENTCLUSTER to describe the visual 
acuity of the subject that was obtained during a regular check-up 
session in some point in their lifetime. But, if you wanted to measure 
some drug uptake (or other transient parameter) you would have a 
repeating POINT_EVENT that could expand indefinitely (because a 
substance uptake is different for every person). (Correct?)


(Thomas thank you very much for that link, it came later as i was 
writing this message, i will have a close look at it)

All the best
Athanasios Anastasiou







On 20/06/2012 15:47, Ian McNicoll wrote:
 Hi Athanasios,

 Just to back up what Sam has said, experience has shown that it is
 best practice to model every top-level archetype structure as
 ITEM_TREE to allow for maximum flexibility to develop the model in the
 future without breaking backward compatibility, and as Sam has said
 there appears to be good consensus that it would be better to replace
 ITEM_STRUCTURE  with CLUSTER in the next generation of the RM. There
 will definitely still be aspects of the archetyped structures inside
 that CLUSTER (via a child CLUSTER ) that are best represented as
 simple lists or as Tables, but this is best done by applying some sort
 of design constraint on the cluster, rather than using a separate
 Table class.

 e.g. for a possible Visual Acuity archetype

 data
Cluster  Laterality (As Table pattern with row names carried as
 Run-time name constraints Left eye, Right eye , Both eyes)
 Element Low level acuity
 Element Snellen
 Element ETDRS
 Element Measurement distance
   Element Mode
   Element Correction

 This lets express a tabular structure at a much more granular level
 than with ITEM_STRUCTURE sub-classes which in th example above would
 have to apply to the whole data structure

 In summary, you can safely assume that we will only be modelling with
 ITEM_TREE for the forseeable future.

 Ian



 On 20 June 2012 11:50, Sam Heardsam.heard at oceaninformatics.com  wrote:
 Hi Anthanasios

 I think time has shown that this is probably an area of over engineering in
 openEHR. All archetypes are now ITEM_TREE and could be clusters.

 If we think of these as providing constraint on an underlying cluster -
 ITEM_LIST is a cluster of ELEMENTs and ITEM_TABLE sets up a set of clusters
 to provide the Information structure of an addressable table.

 There is a place for ITEM_LIST and ITEM_TABLE but the other issue is these
 constraints might be brought to bear at any point in an information
 hierarchy.

 I have proposed in version 2 of the RM that we make these specialisations of
 CLUSTER as a constraint statement. That would ensure backward compatibility.

 Cheers, Sam


 On 16/06/2012 1:25 AM, Athanasios Anastasiou wrote:

 Hello everyone

 I am sending this email to clarify the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE in
 relation to other structures (such as HISTORY and EVENT) both from the
 point of view of EHR semantics as well as the computational view.

 My problem in one line is that i can't understand if ITEM_STRUCTURE
 are there to ensure that their content is interpreted properly
 semantically or they really do what they mean (i.e. they represent
 tables, lists, trees that have to be populated as such).

 A related question is also this one:

 Is it possible that a C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE constraint pointing to an
 ITEM_LIST will have upper_unbounded=True?

 If yes, then ITEM_LIST would have to be dynamically expanding (and this
 complicates things a little bit but...that's life)...If no, then the
 contents of ITEM_LIST can be considered static (yay!) and you only need
 to know that this is an ITEM_LIST for interpretation purposes (which of
 course is KEY when you come across an ITEM_TREE)

 This will help me in two points:
 a) Clarify the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE and use it 

Regarding the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE

2012-06-20 Thread Ian McNicoll
Hi Athanasios,

a) The very first thing you have to do is to decide on the structure
and this is static. The archetyped definition sits within a sub-class
of item structure. So if I am creating a new Observation archetype and
want to add elements to 'data' I first have to decide which structure
to use. In practice we always now use ITEM_TREE.

b) EVENT actually holds 2 ITEM_STRUCTUREs, one for 'data' , and one
for 'state', each of which are statically defined by the archetype.
Basically any time you see ITEM_STRUCTURE, you can assume that part of
the archetype is going to define the content within this structure. It
is a lot easier to look at EVALUATION as an example as the containing
classes are simpler. This has two ITEM_STRUCTUREs 'item' and
'protocol'  . If you look at the Adverse Reaction archetype you will
see that these are separately defined in the archetype.

Ian

On 20 June 2012 16:50, Athanasios Anastasiou
athanasios.anastasiou at plymouth.ac.uk wrote:
 Hello everyone

 Thank you very much for your responses Sam  Ian, they were helpful. In any
 case the changes you describe do not seem to be reducing the flexibility of
 the model. This definitely also helped me in clarifying the use of
 ITEM_TABLE.

 There is another part to that question though that is still not clear and if
 you don't mind i'd like to ask a bit more specifically about:

 a) Is an ITEM_STRUCTURE static?
 (I think that it's static but i would like to verify that because, as
 described in the previous message i can't decide just from the
 specification)
 In other words, when you specify an ITEM_STRUCTURE in the archetype editor
 then you simply denote that you would like your set of defined ITEMs
 (elements, quantities, counts, etc) to be _interpreted_ as a LIST, TABLE,
 TREE but that data structure itself will not have to expand (at run time)
 necessarily to a list, table or tree (Is that correct?).


 b)HISTORY holds a list of EVENTITEM_STRUCTURE (parametrising the data
 attribute here). This particular list COULD BE dynamic (Is that correct?).
 In the visual acuity example provided by Ian earlier: That would be a
 HISTORY of 1 POINT_EVENTCLUSTER to describe the visual acuity of the
 subject that was obtained during a regular check-up session in some point in
 their lifetime. But, if you wanted to measure some drug uptake (or other
 transient parameter) you would have a repeating POINT_EVENT that could
 expand indefinitely (because a substance uptake is different for every
 person). (Correct?)


 (Thomas thank you very much for that link, it came later as i was writing
 this message, i will have a close look at it)


 All the best
 Athanasios Anastasiou







 On 20/06/2012 15:47, Ian McNicoll wrote:

 Hi Athanasios,

 Just to back up what Sam has said, experience has shown that it is
 best practice to model every top-level archetype structure as
 ITEM_TREE to allow for maximum flexibility to develop the model in the
 future without breaking backward compatibility, and as Sam has said
 there appears to be good consensus that it would be better to replace
 ITEM_STRUCTURE ?with CLUSTER in the next generation of the RM. There
 will definitely still be aspects of the archetyped structures inside
 that CLUSTER (via a child CLUSTER ) that are best represented as
 simple lists or as Tables, but this is best done by applying some sort
 of design constraint on the cluster, rather than using a separate
 Table class.

 e.g. for a possible Visual Acuity archetype

 data
 ? Cluster ?Laterality (As Table pattern with row names carried as
 Run-time name constraints Left eye, Right eye , Both eyes)
 ? ? ? ?Element Low level acuity
 ? ? ? ?Element Snellen
 ? ? ? ?Element ETDRS
 ? ? ? ?Element Measurement distance
 ?Element Mode
 ?Element Correction

 This lets express a tabular structure at a much more granular level
 than with ITEM_STRUCTURE sub-classes which in th example above would
 have to apply to the whole data structure

 In summary, you can safely assume that we will only be modelling with
 ITEM_TREE for the forseeable future.

 Ian



 On 20 June 2012 11:50, Sam Heardsam.heard at oceaninformatics.com ?wrote:

 Hi Anthanasios

 I think time has shown that this is probably an area of over engineering
 in
 openEHR. All archetypes are now ITEM_TREE and could be clusters.

 If we think of these as providing constraint on an underlying cluster -
 ITEM_LIST is a cluster of ELEMENTs and ITEM_TABLE sets up a set of
 clusters
 to provide the Information structure of an addressable table.

 There is a place for ITEM_LIST and ITEM_TABLE but the other issue is
 these
 constraints might be brought to bear at any point in an information
 hierarchy.

 I have proposed in version 2 of the RM that we make these specialisations
 of
 CLUSTER as a constraint statement. That would ensure backward
 compatibility.

 Cheers, Sam


 On 16/06/2012 1:25 AM, Athanasios Anastasiou wrote:


 Hello everyone

 I am sending this email to clarify the role of 

Regarding the role of ITEM_STRUCTURE

2012-06-20 Thread Diego Boscá
So you have to select the ITEM_STRUCTURE class but you don't have to
select the EVENT class? (most CKM archetypes have now EVENT and not
INTERVAL_EVENT or POINT_EVENT)
I think it should be allowed/forbidden following only one criteria.

2012/6/20 Ian McNicoll Ian.McNicoll at oceaninformatics.com

 Hi Athanasios,

 a) The very first thing you have to do is to decide on the structure
 and this is static. The archetyped definition sits within a sub-class
 of item structure. So if I am creating a new Observation archetype and
 want to add elements to 'data' I first have to decide which structure
 to use. In practice we always now use ITEM_TREE.

 b) EVENT actually holds 2 ITEM_STRUCTUREs, one for 'data' , and one
 for 'state', each of which are statically defined by the archetype.
 Basically any time you see ITEM_STRUCTURE, you can assume that part of
 the archetype is going to define the content within this structure. It
 is a lot easier to look at EVALUATION as an example as the containing
 classes are simpler. This has two ITEM_STRUCTUREs 'item' and
 'protocol' ?. If you look at the Adverse Reaction archetype you will
 see that these are separately defined in the archetype.

 Ian

 On 20 June 2012 16:50, Athanasios Anastasiou
 athanasios.anastasiou at plymouth.ac.uk wrote:
  Hello everyone
 
  Thank you very much for your responses Sam  Ian, they were helpful. In
  any
  case the changes you describe do not seem to be reducing the flexibility
  of
  the model. This definitely also helped me in clarifying the use of
  ITEM_TABLE.
 
  There is another part to that question though that is still not clear
  and if
  you don't mind i'd like to ask a bit more specifically about:
 
  a) Is an ITEM_STRUCTURE static?
  (I think that it's static but i would like to verify that because, as
  described in the previous message i can't decide just from the
  specification)
  In other words, when you specify an ITEM_STRUCTURE in the archetype
  editor
  then you simply denote that you would like your set of defined ITEMs
  (elements, quantities, counts, etc) to be _interpreted_ as a LIST,
  TABLE,
  TREE but that data structure itself will not have to expand (at run
  time)
  necessarily to a list, table or tree (Is that correct?).
 
 
  b)HISTORY holds a list of EVENTITEM_STRUCTURE (parametrising the data
  attribute here). This particular list COULD BE dynamic (Is that
  correct?).
  In the visual acuity example provided by Ian earlier: That would be a
  HISTORY of 1 POINT_EVENTCLUSTER to describe the visual acuity of the
  subject that was obtained during a regular check-up session in some
  point in
  their lifetime. But, if you wanted to measure some drug uptake (or other
  transient parameter) you would have a repeating POINT_EVENT that could
  expand indefinitely (because a substance uptake is different for every
  person). (Correct?)
 
 
  (Thomas thank you very much for that link, it came later as i was
  writing
  this message, i will have a close look at it)
 
 
  All the best
  Athanasios Anastasiou
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  On 20/06/2012 15:47, Ian McNicoll wrote:
 
  Hi Athanasios,
 
  Just to back up what Sam has said, experience has shown that it is
  best practice to model every top-level archetype structure as
  ITEM_TREE to allow for maximum flexibility to develop the model in the
  future without breaking backward compatibility, and as Sam has said
  there appears to be good consensus that it would be better to replace
  ITEM_STRUCTURE ?with CLUSTER in the next generation of the RM. There
  will definitely still be aspects of the archetyped structures inside
  that CLUSTER (via a child CLUSTER ) that are best represented as
  simple lists or as Tables, but this is best done by applying some sort
  of design constraint on the cluster, rather than using a separate
  Table class.
 
  e.g. for a possible Visual Acuity archetype
 
  data
  ? Cluster ?Laterality (As Table pattern with row names carried as
  Run-time name constraints Left eye, Right eye , Both eyes)
  ? ? ? ?Element Low level acuity
  ? ? ? ?Element Snellen
  ? ? ? ?Element ETDRS
  ? ? ? ?Element Measurement distance
  ?Element Mode
  ?Element Correction
 
  This lets express a tabular structure at a much more granular level
  than with ITEM_STRUCTURE sub-classes which in th example above would
  have to apply to the whole data structure
 
  In summary, you can safely assume that we will only be modelling with
  ITEM_TREE for the forseeable future.
 
  Ian
 
 
 
  On 20 June 2012 11:50, Sam Heardsam.heard at oceaninformatics.com
  ?wrote:
 
  Hi Anthanasios
 
  I think time has shown that this is probably an area of over
  engineering
  in
  openEHR. All archetypes are now ITEM_TREE and could be clusters.
 
  If we think of these as providing constraint on an underlying cluster
  -
  ITEM_LIST is a cluster of ELEMENTs and ITEM_TABLE sets up a set of
  clusters
  to provide the Information structure of an addressable table.
 
  There is a place for