Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-30 Thread David Chan
Joseph may remember the first time I had to take my previous EMR product (MUFFIN) through conformance testing. It took months of planning, documentation, test server and configuration, and then finally a week of testing - basically going through point by point of the system specification. I was

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-28 Thread Richard Schilling
I understand Rod's point, and I believe that if you choose to restrict your activities to a purely altruistic ideal, then what Rod talks about and what Eric Rayomond talks about is just fine. But, I argue that at any point you invest time into open source (as a user,developer, etc.) it is

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-28 Thread Richard Schilling
Greg Woodhouse wrote: It seems to me that there are two threads of discussion here that are not at all merging. One issue is whether testing can and should be made cheaper. Maybe it can, but testing is the last line of defense in software quality, and is highly problematic, relying essentially

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-28 Thread Maury Pepper
@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software?? It sounds like there is little consensus for having any special status for open source software. Certainly not enough to warrant a group letter. Are there any more thoughts

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-28 Thread Nandalal Gunaratne
Greg Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your two questions will have different answers because the usage and business models will be different. HIS will be used by differnet people for differnt purposes. The government will expect high degree of safety, but will be abale to bare the costs.

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-28 Thread Nandalal Gunaratne
Will Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I too agree. Certification is a matter of standards and quality. ther should be no compromise. The FOSS once equally certified maybe able to make stroner claims. However because of the collaborative/community type of development, there could be a waver of

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-28 Thread Nandalal Gunaratne
Business Readiness Rating™ - Home Could HIS be included here as well? NandA Thomas Beale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Tim.Churches wrote: Will Ross wrote: Fred, I oppose the creation of a separate open source certification process. I think it compromises the opportunity for

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-27 Thread Rod Roark
On Saturday 25 March 2006 03:08 am, Thomas Beale wrote: Rod Roark wrote: The point is, open source (as in Free Software) is NOT a business model. It's a method and end result of collaboration among users. I make good money at it only because some of those users are willing to pay me to

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-27 Thread Will Ross
Rod, In general, I think it is unhelpful to imagine that Free Software has a nature entirely separate from commercial activity. Eric Raymond's meta-analysis is a useful historical document, but is not relevant to this discussion. We are discussing the relationship between open source

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-27 Thread Greg Woodhouse
Aren't we missing the larger issue? Proper certification of health information systems is going to be expensive, and that is probably unavoidable. Moeover, someone is going to have to bear the burden of that cost. I'm not sure that this question should really be tied to the certification model,

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-27 Thread Fred Trotter
This is an interesting discussion. However we do have some decisions to make. 1. Does the different nature free and open source medical software warrant different consideration than proprietary models for CCHIT certification pricing. (If a large number of people feel this way then we should draft

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-27 Thread Rod Roark
On Monday 27 March 2006 09:46 am, Will Ross wrote: Rod, In general, I think it is unhelpful to imagine that Free Software has a nature entirely separate from commercial activity. Eric Raymond's meta-analysis is a useful historical document, but is not relevant to this discussion.

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-27 Thread Tim.Churches
Will Ross wrote: Fred, I oppose the creation of a separate open source certification process. I think it compromises the opportunity for open source solutions to displace commercial solutions, and it distracts open source projects from leveraging the collaborative process to create

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-27 Thread Thomas Beale
Tim.Churches wrote: Will Ross wrote: Fred, I oppose the creation of a separate open source certification process. I think it compromises the opportunity for open source solutions to displace commercial solutions, and it distracts open source projects from leveraging the

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-27 Thread Thomas Beale
Greg Woodhouse wrote: It seems to me that there are two threads of discussion here that are not at all merging. One issue is whether testing can and should be made cheaper. I didn't think we were talking about testing; we were talking about certification. Certification is about getting a tick

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-27 Thread Fred Trotter
It sounds like there is little consensus for having any special status for open source software. Certainly not enough to warrant a group letter. Are there any more thoughts on how much a certification should cost? -FT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-25 Thread Thomas Beale
Rod Roark wrote: The point is, open source (as in Free Software) is NOT a business model. It's a method and end result of collaboration among users. I make good money at it only because some of those users are willing to pay me to do the techie work for them. if someone is paying you

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-25 Thread Tim.Churches
Thomas Beale wrote: Rod Roark wrote: The point is, open source (as in Free Software) is NOT a business model. It's a method and end result of collaboration among users. I make good money at it only because some of those users are willing to pay me to do the techie work for

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-25 Thread Joseph Dal Molin
In the pilot test of the criteria vendors took between roughly 30 and 300 hours to document their solutions.don't know to what extent they wentso Tim's estimate sounds reasonable. We estimated it will take 300 hours for VistA Officewe will let everyone know when we are done how

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-25 Thread Fred Trotter
Before I contributed to the opinions raised I would like to point out several things that my recent investigations have pointed out. First, the proposed fees are straw man fees CCHIT wants feedback on these prices. They are not at all set in stone. They also have some mechanisms in place to

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-25 Thread Will Ross
On Mar 24, 2006, at 9:44 PM, Rod Roark wrote: I repeat: NOBODY will pay thousands for certification of Free Software. They will use it because they already believe in it. Rod, I have been following the CCHIT process. I do not consider CCHIT to be biased against open source. I think

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-25 Thread Tim.Churches
Will Ross wrote: On Mar 24, 2006, at 9:44 PM, Rod Roark wrote: I repeat: NOBODY will pay thousands for certification of Free Software. They will use it because they already believe in it. Rod, I have been following the CCHIT process. I do not consider CCHIT to be biased against

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-25 Thread Joseph Dal Molin
It's a non-profit that won a Health and Human Services Tender to implement the ONCHIT EHR criteria. I agree, but certifying authorities such as CCHIT (is CCHIT a govt certification authority or is it a certifying business set up to make money or is it an industry non-profit set up to

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-25 Thread Tim.Churches
Gregory Woodhouse wrote: On Mar 25, 2006, at 5:01 PM, Joseph Dal Molin wrote: and...at the risk of stating the obvious there should be some mechanism for evaluating the certification authority and the criteria... Sadly, I don't know how many people are even thinking in those

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-25 Thread Gregory Woodhouse
On Mar 25, 2006, at 9:01 PM, Tim.Churches wrote: Certainly formal quality assurance mechanisms for health-related software should be used where possible and reasonable, but it must also be remembered that the practice of medicine itself is, at worst, guided by a tradition of what seems

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread syd
The current CCHIT pricing module seems biased against any GPL based system. Joseph has already written about this, but I would like for us to consider group action in the issue. The first issue is pricing. It will cost a $25,000 to $35,000 one-time fee to perform the test. After

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread Joseph Dal Molin
This is a US initiative... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The current CCHIT pricing module seems biased against any GPL based system. Joseph has already written about this, but I would like for us to consider group action in the issue. The first issue is pricing. It will cost

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread Greg Woodhouse
[I hope you don't mind if I copy this to Hardhats. I think it is a topic of interest to both communities.] I have mixed feelings here. It seems completely reasonable to want to have an accreditation/certification process for health information systems (though the jurisdiction issue is certainly a

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread Fred Trotter
You are right we should not receive a by we do need to make concrete suggestions as to how the same organization can accomplish open source evaluations... Here are the suggestions from emrupdate.com emrupdate 1. Markedly decrease your up-front fees and eliminate the percent royalties

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread Richard Schilling
I'd prefer to assume that the CCHIT pricing model is simply biased toward software companies that can produce a viable product. And by that I mean a software product that stimulates revenue for a company at some point - which in our case is not through the sale of software licenses. Nothing

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread Rod Roark
On Friday 24 March 2006 04:48 pm, Richard Schilling wrote: ... I maintain open souce software is a path toward stimulated economies and innovation .. CCHIT doesn't owe anything to open source software and shouldn't be required to lower their fees. It's up to us to demonstrate that

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread Richard Schilling
Rod Roark wrote: This is equivalent to ignoring the practical issues that Fred raised. I disagree. The practical issues Fred raised are real concerns, but the software companies we're competing against throw a *lot* of money into validation and certification - especially HIPAA compliance (in

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread Rod Roark
On Friday 24 March 2006 05:27 pm, Richard Schilling wrote: Rod Roark wrote: ... Nobody is going to pay thousands of dollars for certification of free software -- not to mention that such software by its nature will be continually evolving and so quickly rendering any given certification

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread Tim.Churches
Fred Trotter wrote: The current CCHIT pricing module seems biased against any GPL based system. Fred, you don't think that the CCHIT pricing is biased against software released under other types of free, open source licenses? Joseph has already written about this, but I would like for us to

Re: [openhealth] CCHIT biased towards proprietary software??

2006-03-24 Thread Richard Schilling
Tim.Churches wrote: I think that the key question is: what does certification involve? How is it done? Is the $25000 certification fee required in order to employ a team of High Priests who use magical incantations and crystal balls to determine whether a particular software product should