Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On January 8, 2021 1:27:34 AM UTC, Chris wrote: >On 2021-01-07 13:50, Guenther Alka wrote: >> In the end I do not think in these categories. >> >> A few years ago all my own servers were OpenIndiana and maybe 40% of >my >> users on >> Solaris. Now I am 100% on OmniOS beside a OI evaluation machine (and >miss OI >> features and use cases) and maybe 10% of my users are left on Solaris >with >> OI near >> to not relevant now. >> >> OmniOS and OI are OpenSource. Why not take over this from OmniOS to >keep >> them more in sync? >> On Linux Debian and Ubuntu are big enough to be independent while >very >> similar. On >> Illumos everyone may be too small alone in the long run. >IMHO No that RHEL is in bed with IBM, and as a result; RHEL, and CentOS > >taking >quite a different path. OI is likely to see a greater influx of users. >A >quick >look on the CentOS mailinglists/forums indicates thier userbase is >LIVID >about >the changes. The was not one single positive note about the change. >tl;dr >A lot of CentOS, and as a result, RHEL users; are abandoning ship. >They'll >all >be going *somewhere*. Maybe it's to OI. :-) > >--Chris >> >> Gea >> >>> >>> What you want is to make a OmniOS extra respoitory (git) with GUi >packages. >>> That would factually mean abandoning OI and the Goal of a General >Purpose >>> OS. That would be an acquisition not a merger. >>> >>> -Till >>> >>> ___ >>> openindiana-discuss mailing list >>> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org >>> https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss >> >> ___ >> openindiana-discuss mailing list >> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org >> https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > >___ >openindiana-discuss mailing list >openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org >https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss Alas, I'd not be too enthusiastic about people leaving CentOS because of rolling-release model coming to OI because it is the primary model for OI Hipster too (with half-yearly snapshots). Maybe OmniOS LTS would be a better fit for them in fact - but still, if that debacle provides an influx to illumos ecosystem, that's good :) Elsewhere, it was assumed that omnios is "close to" illumos-gate. In fact, it is not, and in a way stages the improvements that take time or have other hiccups to get into the requirements for common upstream codebase changes. There are several facets to this. One is getting those fixes into illumos-gate - that is hard for the same reasons those commits are not upstreamed yet. Another is people who missed features like lx, bhyve, overlays, etc. that are/were absent in OI and present in OO. It might be alleviated by building and installing a gate (and additional packages for features) made from OO codebase. Tribblix has a flavor like that. Such work would probably need some integration effort, but probably is not prohibitively hard. It may oppose current goals of Hipster as a distro made on top of vanilla illumos-gate however, so there is a question of who'd make it and keep it working. Yet another aspect is that build systems and packaging approaches and layout into package publishers (repos) are way too different. It may be possible to emulate one build system by another in terms of making recipes for equivalent result, but scrap that other in case of distro-merging. IMHO from sheer size and integrated magic for dependency checks and build rituals, the oi-userland would survive such merge, but not sure how kindly the OmniOS community and maintainers would take to that. After all, by goal and design OO is a minimal-footprint distro for people who custom-build their application software (with OO style of recipes or somehow else); similar to Gentoo if I were to draw parallels. Initially I was among those who proposed such a merger when OmniTI stepped down, but no longer push for that. Not objected if that "just happens to converge", but forcing that to happen either. As tools with their certain purposes, the distros are too different to easily mash and still meet all existing use-cases. As communities of real people with different goals for their different works and projects, they often share the same pool of talent. And it is nice to have different points of view and ways of solving problems, just like shadow compilations expose different bugs to let us make more robust code. Possibly a facet project where full OI userland builds on top of omnios-gate (plus code for packaged tools of the new features) instead of illumos-gate might solve the practical user woes. IMHO as far as OI is concerned, someone outside maintains some *-gate content and quality, so it should not be too relevant *which* third-party code is used for this or that variant build. Jim -- Typos courtesy of K-9 Mail on my Android
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On 2021-01-07 13:50, Guenther Alka wrote: In the end I do not think in these categories. A few years ago all my own servers were OpenIndiana and maybe 40% of my users on Solaris. Now I am 100% on OmniOS beside a OI evaluation machine (and miss OI features and use cases) and maybe 10% of my users are left on Solaris with OI near to not relevant now. OmniOS and OI are OpenSource. Why not take over this from OmniOS to keep them more in sync? On Linux Debian and Ubuntu are big enough to be independent while very similar. On Illumos everyone may be too small alone in the long run. IMHO No that RHEL is in bed with IBM, and as a result; RHEL, and CentOS taking quite a different path. OI is likely to see a greater influx of users. A quick look on the CentOS mailinglists/forums indicates thier userbase is LIVID about the changes. The was not one single positive note about the change. tl;dr A lot of CentOS, and as a result, RHEL users; are abandoning ship. They'll all be going *somewhere*. Maybe it's to OI. :-) --Chris Gea What you want is to make a OmniOS extra respoitory (git) with GUi packages. That would factually mean abandoning OI and the Goal of a General Purpose OS. That would be an acquisition not a merger. -Till ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:04 PM Till Wegmueller wrote: > No. Nobody is ever too small to achieve something. You just need to be > clever about it. We always have the assumption that building packages is > the main burden for Systems, but that is only if you don't have the > right automation. And that is possible. Fully automate bumping package > versions is possible. Build systems are similar enough, aaand many > projects now switch to meson which is specifically automate able and > standardized. So the burden is only there if you are not innovative. And > our size makes us the perfect group for such innovation. We have the > need. The Debian community does not have a need for innovation in > packaging automation they are to big. When I talk with my friend which > is Debian packager from the very beginning, he says the same. Everybody > is happy with the Status quo and wants no changes as they don't need > them. Then they get stuck. We can't afford to get stuck. Thats a good > thing. > +1 :) > > -Till > > On 07.01.21 18:50, Guenther Alka wrote: > > In the end I do not think in these categories. > > > > A few years ago all my own servers were OpenIndiana and maybe 40% of my > > users on Solaris. Now I am 100% on OmniOS beside a OI evaluation machine > > (and miss OI features and use cases) and maybe 10% of my users are left > > on Solaris with OI near to not relevant now. > > > > OmniOS and OI are OpenSource. Why not take over this from OmniOS to keep > > them more in sync? > > On Linux Debian and Ubuntu are big enough to be independent while very > > similar. On Illumos everyone may be too small alone in the long run. > > > > Gea > > > >> > >> What you want is to make a OmniOS extra respoitory (git) with GUi > >> packages. That would factually mean abandoning OI and the Goal of a > >> General Purpose OS. That would be an acquisition not a merger. > >> > >> -Till > >> > >> ___ > >> openindiana-discuss mailing list > >> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > >> https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > > > > ___ > > openindiana-discuss mailing list > > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > -- --- Praise the Caffeine embeddings ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
No. Nobody is ever too small to achieve something. You just need to be clever about it. We always have the assumption that building packages is the main burden for Systems, but that is only if you don't have the right automation. And that is possible. Fully automate bumping package versions is possible. Build systems are similar enough, aaand many projects now switch to meson which is specifically automate able and standardized. So the burden is only there if you are not innovative. And our size makes us the perfect group for such innovation. We have the need. The Debian community does not have a need for innovation in packaging automation they are to big. When I talk with my friend which is Debian packager from the very beginning, he says the same. Everybody is happy with the Status quo and wants no changes as they don't need them. Then they get stuck. We can't afford to get stuck. Thats a good thing. -Till On 07.01.21 18:50, Guenther Alka wrote: In the end I do not think in these categories. A few years ago all my own servers were OpenIndiana and maybe 40% of my users on Solaris. Now I am 100% on OmniOS beside a OI evaluation machine (and miss OI features and use cases) and maybe 10% of my users are left on Solaris with OI near to not relevant now. OmniOS and OI are OpenSource. Why not take over this from OmniOS to keep them more in sync? On Linux Debian and Ubuntu are big enough to be independent while very similar. On Illumos everyone may be too small alone in the long run. Gea What you want is to make a OmniOS extra respoitory (git) with GUi packages. That would factually mean abandoning OI and the Goal of a General Purpose OS. That would be an acquisition not a merger. -Till ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
In the end I do not think in these categories. A few years ago all my own servers were OpenIndiana and maybe 40% of my users on Solaris. Now I am 100% on OmniOS beside a OI evaluation machine (and miss OI features and use cases) and maybe 10% of my users are left on Solaris with OI near to not relevant now. OmniOS and OI are OpenSource. Why not take over this from OmniOS to keep them more in sync? On Linux Debian and Ubuntu are big enough to be independent while very similar. On Illumos everyone may be too small alone in the long run. Gea What you want is to make a OmniOS extra respoitory (git) with GUi packages. That would factually mean abandoning OI and the Goal of a General Purpose OS. That would be an acquisition not a merger. -Till ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Nope On 07.01.21 18:05, Guenther Alka wrote: Please ignore my lack of knowledge if I am not correct or simplify too much. As far as I know kayak is a tool to setup OmniOS. I do not use. I download either the OI or OmniOS installer, create a bootable dvd or USB stick from it and install the OS. When I use the OI text installer the result is quite identical to a OmniOS default setup. The installer is kayak on OmniOS. On OpenIndiana it is slim_cd whcih is the OpenSolaris one. would this work and gives you the current OI user experience on top of a stable OmniOS base? Nope. That would give you a package dependency hell. No package would be installable, as they are all built against different dependency version. What you want is to make a OmniOS extra respoitory (git) with GUi packages. That would factually mean abandoning OI and the Goal of a General Purpose OS. That would be an acquisition not a merger. -Till ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Please ignore my lack of knowledge if I am not correct or simplify too much. As far as I know kayak is a tool to setup OmniOS. I do not use. I download either the OI or OmniOS installer, create a bootable dvd or USB stick from it and install the OS. When I use the OI text installer the result is quite identical to a OmniOS default setup. What would happen if - you use a current OI text setup with the default current OmniOS stable repository instead the OI repository (update this every 6 months to next OmniOS repo on next regular OI iso or via an OI update) After this OmniOS and OI should be quite identical even after a pkg update - add the OmniOS extra repository with some server related packages (I mostly use smartmontools, nc and minIO) this gives all tools that are supported by OmniOS (update every 6 months to next stable) - add the OI repository (that contains all OI packages minus the ones from OmniOS default and extra) - then install tools like Mate GUI, browser or Office would this work and gives you the current OI user experience on top of a stable OmniOS base? Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 20:53 schrieb Till Wegmueller: So, to that question a bit of Background. OmniOS is more than just illumos and omni repo. It's also kayak and all their Projects. That is a huge amount of projects. There was work to allow installation of omnios illumos-gate instead of illumos-gate by simply switching packages. That can work, because we have consolidations and metapackages that bundle illumos-gate into one tree of packages where everything depends on. This work was started by Jim Klimov and me on the last FOSDEM but due to lack of experience with oi-userland and make it never went anywhere. It's in PR https://github.com/OpenIndiana/oi-userland/pull/5528 If anyobody is actually interested in picking it up. And a last not on illumos-gate and stability. Originally the patches omnios included into it's for of illumos-gate where still considered experimental/not yet ready to upstream. Now we see people saying those experimental patches are more stable than the illumos-gate with stability guarantee in master. If anything is broken from illumos-gate it gets fixed very quickly. The problem all complaints are about packages from oi-userland not illumos-gate. -Till On 07.01.21 14:29, Guenther Alka wrote: I forgot What is the problem to install either pure Illumos or a Illumos freeze from OmniOS and use the OI repository additional to the core OmniOS and OmniOS extra repository to use the additional options? Where are the problems? Is this only to have same packages in different repositories or that OI would need something similar to the OmniOS extra repository when using Illumos to avoid conflicts? Maybe this can be solved to allow a underlying pure ongoing Illumos or one of the three OmniOS flavours. Please educate me. Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 18:08 schrieb Guenther Alka: Not broken as it never worked (multi purpose Illumos Unix with a stable/long term stable/newest beta base). OI currently: always and only newest beta based so Yes: (maybe easy to say as I cannot help to do the needed work - unsure about the needed efforts) When I remember the first steps of OpenIndiana, the lack of a stable was a constant item on all meetings. When OmniOS started they first tried to use OpenIndiana as base what was more or less OpenSolaris at that time with too many dependencies. Then Illumos started as a minimalistic OS based on OpenSolaris and OmniOS used this as base. Now as OI is pure Illumos as base and OmniOS is more or less pure Illumos freezed in a fork per release there is no real reason to have two bases and two software repositories for different use cases with the problem for OI that the underlying Illumos can change from day to day. Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 17:24 schrieb Chris: On 2021-01-07 06:02, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish community. If merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth it. And you guys have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea taken up again. It seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the long run. This is what we want to do. Base a desktop package ontop OmniOS stable (or LTS). I am interested in helping such an effort. Some people say yay, some say nay. Should we create a poll, to see how large the interest is? I vote: NAY. There is no need to fix what is not broken. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 6:23 PM Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > Am 07.01.21 um 18:08 schrieb Guenther Alka: > > Not broken as it never worked > > (multi purpose Illumos Unix with a stable/long term stable/newest beta > > base). > > > > OI currently: always and only newest beta based > > so Yes: (maybe easy to say as I cannot help to do the needed work - > > unsure about the needed efforts) > > > > When I remember the first steps of OpenIndiana, the lack of a stable > > was a constant item on all meetings. > > > > When OmniOS started they first tried to use OpenIndiana as base what > > was more or less OpenSolaris at that time with too many dependencies. > > Then Illumos started as a minimalistic OS based on OpenSolaris and > > OmniOS used this as base. Now as OI is pure Illumos as base and OmniOS > > is more or less pure Illumos freezed in a fork per release there is no > > real reason to have two bases and two software repositories for > > different use cases with the problem for OI that the underlying > > Illumos can change from day to day. > > > > Gea > You don't seem to have read my former answers, so I will retry: > > The most important answer you have to give is: Who will do the necessary > work? > > Actual numbers: > > Number of active OI maintainers: > Number of active OI maintainers with commit rights: 1 > Number of testers (not also being a maintainer): 1 > Number of admins (not also being a maintainer with commit rights): 0 > > > More questions you should answer as a business man: > - Do you have an estimation of the needed efforts, eg. for creating a > minimal version (tdb!) of what you propose? > - What are you willing to spend to start/support these efforts? > I do not think starting from scratch to aim at building something right here right now, but keeping a convergence with OmniOS on the overlap that Joshua and Andy have mentioned should be a goal. If we do not pay attention I am worried that we end up with an increasing gap like on pkg5 (we are two Python versions behind Andy on pkg5). There are areas when it comes to package maintenance where contributions are welcome: - Python (our build system is not flexible enough, too much manual work for nothing) - Boost - Rust - LLVM/Clang Then only after Clang and Rust are updated we can consider updating Firefox as many have requested. Without valuable contributors like you, Nona, Rick, Jim, Till, it will be hard to keep up. I have tried to keep rebuilding the entire userland with GCC 10, my goal is to have this done by the next snapshot. > > > We need to increase all the numbers I presented above before it makes > even sense to discuss a change like you are proposing! > OI is an open source project without any company background and without > anybody getting money for what he/she is doing! > > As I wrote before: We don't lack good ideas, we lack people doing actual > work! > > > Andreas > > > > > > > Am 07.01.2021 um 17:24 schrieb Chris: > >> On 2021-01-07 06:02, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: > >>> Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish > >>> community. If > >>> merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth > >>> it. And you guys > >>> have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea > >>> taken up again. It > >>> seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the > >>> long run. > >>> This is what we want to do. Base a desktop package ontop OmniOS > >>> stable (or LTS). I > >>> am interested in helping such an effort. > >>> Some people say yay, some say nay. Should we create a poll, to see > >>> how large the > >>> interest is? > >> > >> I vote: NAY. > >> There is no need to fix what is not broken. > >> > >>> ___ > >>> openindiana-discuss mailing list > >>> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > >>> https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > >> > > > > ___ > > openindiana-discuss mailing list > > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > -- --- Praise the Caffeine embeddings ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
So, to that question a bit of Background. OmniOS is more than just illumos and omni repo. It's also kayak and all their Projects. That is a huge amount of projects. There was work to allow installation of omnios illumos-gate instead of illumos-gate by simply switching packages. That can work, because we have consolidations and metapackages that bundle illumos-gate into one tree of packages where everything depends on. This work was started by Jim Klimov and me on the last FOSDEM but due to lack of experience with oi-userland and make it never went anywhere. It's in PR https://github.com/OpenIndiana/oi-userland/pull/5528 If anyobody is actually interested in picking it up. And a last not on illumos-gate and stability. Originally the patches omnios included into it's for of illumos-gate where still considered experimental/not yet ready to upstream. Now we see people saying those experimental patches are more stable than the illumos-gate with stability guarantee in master. If anything is broken from illumos-gate it gets fixed very quickly. The problem all complaints are about packages from oi-userland not illumos-gate. -Till On 07.01.21 14:29, Guenther Alka wrote: I forgot What is the problem to install either pure Illumos or a Illumos freeze from OmniOS and use the OI repository additional to the core OmniOS and OmniOS extra repository to use the additional options? Where are the problems? Is this only to have same packages in different repositories or that OI would need something similar to the OmniOS extra repository when using Illumos to avoid conflicts? Maybe this can be solved to allow a underlying pure ongoing Illumos or one of the three OmniOS flavours. Please educate me. Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 18:08 schrieb Guenther Alka: Not broken as it never worked (multi purpose Illumos Unix with a stable/long term stable/newest beta base). OI currently: always and only newest beta based so Yes: (maybe easy to say as I cannot help to do the needed work - unsure about the needed efforts) When I remember the first steps of OpenIndiana, the lack of a stable was a constant item on all meetings. When OmniOS started they first tried to use OpenIndiana as base what was more or less OpenSolaris at that time with too many dependencies. Then Illumos started as a minimalistic OS based on OpenSolaris and OmniOS used this as base. Now as OI is pure Illumos as base and OmniOS is more or less pure Illumos freezed in a fork per release there is no real reason to have two bases and two software repositories for different use cases with the problem for OI that the underlying Illumos can change from day to day. Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 17:24 schrieb Chris: On 2021-01-07 06:02, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish community. If merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth it. And you guys have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea taken up again. It seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the long run. This is what we want to do. Base a desktop package ontop OmniOS stable (or LTS). I am interested in helping such an effort. Some people say yay, some say nay. Should we create a poll, to see how large the interest is? I vote: NAY. There is no need to fix what is not broken. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Hello everybody, I'm not in the position of propose something or provide some insight to this topic since I've started contributing to OI just in recent three months. But I can say that I don't lack spirit, yet I do lack experience and knowledge. My backgroud isn't IT, I'm not familiar with C family languages and everything is new to me. It takes me forever to prepare propper PR. I'm able to contribute just because I can choose what to do and when something doesn' t work, I can abandon it. Therefore, if the projects merged, I wouldn't be able to contribute in any way since I hardly know what I'm doing when things are stable in OI. What I'm trying to say is that just because somebody contributes to some project doesn't necessarily mean that this person is developer to be count on. I'm affraid that on OI side, the work would heavily lie on a few (if not one) experienced delevopers. Nona -- Původní e-mail -- Od: Guenther Alka Komu: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Datum: 7. 1. 2021 18:53:56 Předmět: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS) "I also own a project with mainly me and a few contributors (napp-it). It's not the number of devs but the spirit to do something that matters. You exactly point to the essential point. With not enough people working on something not paid for doing without hope and energy your only choices are sudden death (if you are the last one to leave, please switch off the light) or slow death (nobody discovered that you are already dead). As I have used Solaris, OpenSolaris, NexentaCore and now use OmniOS and OI, I would miss OI nearly as most as I would miss OmniOS. With only a few people working on something it is a matter of surviving to bundle work and not to do everything twice. OmniOS has a commercial background that may help but there are also not too many devs for an OpenSource OS. If all efforts in a free Solaris can be combined, its future is better than when you seperate them additionally without real reason. Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 18:23 schrieb Andreas Wacknitz: > Am 07.01.21 um 18:08 schrieb Guenther Alka: >> Not broken as it never worked >> (multi purpose Illumos Unix with a stable/long term stable/newest beta >> base). >> >> OI currently: always and only newest beta based >> so Yes: (maybe easy to say as I cannot help to do the needed work - >> unsure about the needed efforts) >> >> When I remember the first steps of OpenIndiana, the lack of a stable >> was a constant item on all meetings. >> >> When OmniOS started they first tried to use OpenIndiana as base what >> was more or less OpenSolaris at that time with too many dependencies. >> Then Illumos started as a minimalistic OS based on OpenSolaris and >> OmniOS used this as base. Now as OI is pure Illumos as base and OmniOS >> is more or less pure Illumos freezed in a fork per release there is no >> real reason to have two bases and two software repositories for >> different use cases with the problem for OI that the underlying >> Illumos can change from day to day. >> >> Gea > You don't seem to have read my former answers, so I will retry: > > The most important answer you have to give is: Who will do the necessary > work? > > Actual numbers: > > Number of active OI maintainers: > Number of active OI maintainers with commit rights: 1 > Number of testers (not also being a maintainer): 1 > Number of admins (not also being a maintainer with commit rights): 0 > > > More questions you should answer as a business man: > - Do you have an estimation of the needed efforts, eg. for creating a > minimal version (tdb!) of what you propose? > - What are you willing to spend to start/support these efforts? > > > We need to increase all the numbers I presented above before it makes > even sense to discuss a change like you are proposing! > OI is an open source project without any company background and without > anybody getting money for what he/she is doing! > > As I wrote before: We don't lack good ideas, we lack people doing actual > work! > > > Andreas > > > >> >> Am 07.01.2021 um 17:24 schrieb Chris: >>> On 2021-01-07 06:02, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: >>>> Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish >>>> community. If >>>> merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth >>>> it. And you guys >>>> have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea >>>> taken up again. It >>>> seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the >
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
I also own a project with mainly me and a few contributors (napp-it). It's not the number of devs but the spirit to do something that matters. You exactly point to the essential point. With not enough people working on something not paid for doing without hope and energy your only choices are sudden death (if you are the last one to leave, please switch off the light) or slow death (nobody discovered that you are already dead). As I have used Solaris, OpenSolaris, NexentaCore and now use OmniOS and OI, I would miss OI nearly as most as I would miss OmniOS. With only a few people working on something it is a matter of surviving to bundle work and not to do everything twice. OmniOS has a commercial background that may help but there are also not too many devs for an OpenSource OS. If all efforts in a free Solaris can be combined, its future is better than when you seperate them additionally without real reason. Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 18:23 schrieb Andreas Wacknitz: Am 07.01.21 um 18:08 schrieb Guenther Alka: Not broken as it never worked (multi purpose Illumos Unix with a stable/long term stable/newest beta base). OI currently: always and only newest beta based so Yes: (maybe easy to say as I cannot help to do the needed work - unsure about the needed efforts) When I remember the first steps of OpenIndiana, the lack of a stable was a constant item on all meetings. When OmniOS started they first tried to use OpenIndiana as base what was more or less OpenSolaris at that time with too many dependencies. Then Illumos started as a minimalistic OS based on OpenSolaris and OmniOS used this as base. Now as OI is pure Illumos as base and OmniOS is more or less pure Illumos freezed in a fork per release there is no real reason to have two bases and two software repositories for different use cases with the problem for OI that the underlying Illumos can change from day to day. Gea You don't seem to have read my former answers, so I will retry: The most important answer you have to give is: Who will do the necessary work? Actual numbers: Number of active OI maintainers: Number of active OI maintainers with commit rights: 1 Number of testers (not also being a maintainer): 1 Number of admins (not also being a maintainer with commit rights): 0 More questions you should answer as a business man: - Do you have an estimation of the needed efforts, eg. for creating a minimal version (tdb!) of what you propose? - What are you willing to spend to start/support these efforts? We need to increase all the numbers I presented above before it makes even sense to discuss a change like you are proposing! OI is an open source project without any company background and without anybody getting money for what he/she is doing! As I wrote before: We don't lack good ideas, we lack people doing actual work! Andreas Am 07.01.2021 um 17:24 schrieb Chris: On 2021-01-07 06:02, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish community. If merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth it. And you guys have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea taken up again. It seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the long run. This is what we want to do. Base a desktop package ontop OmniOS stable (or LTS). I am interested in helping such an effort. Some people say yay, some say nay. Should we create a poll, to see how large the interest is? I vote: NAY. There is no need to fix what is not broken. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
I forgot What is the problem to install either pure Illumos or a Illumos freeze from OmniOS and use the OI repository additional to the core OmniOS and OmniOS extra repository to use the additional options? Where are the problems? Is this only to have same packages in different repositories or that OI would need something similar to the OmniOS extra repository when using Illumos to avoid conflicts? Maybe this can be solved to allow a underlying pure ongoing Illumos or one of the three OmniOS flavours. Please educate me. Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 18:08 schrieb Guenther Alka: Not broken as it never worked (multi purpose Illumos Unix with a stable/long term stable/newest beta base). OI currently: always and only newest beta based so Yes: (maybe easy to say as I cannot help to do the needed work - unsure about the needed efforts) When I remember the first steps of OpenIndiana, the lack of a stable was a constant item on all meetings. When OmniOS started they first tried to use OpenIndiana as base what was more or less OpenSolaris at that time with too many dependencies. Then Illumos started as a minimalistic OS based on OpenSolaris and OmniOS used this as base. Now as OI is pure Illumos as base and OmniOS is more or less pure Illumos freezed in a fork per release there is no real reason to have two bases and two software repositories for different use cases with the problem for OI that the underlying Illumos can change from day to day. Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 17:24 schrieb Chris: On 2021-01-07 06:02, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish community. If merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth it. And you guys have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea taken up again. It seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the long run. This is what we want to do. Base a desktop package ontop OmniOS stable (or LTS). I am interested in helping such an effort. Some people say yay, some say nay. Should we create a poll, to see how large the interest is? I vote: NAY. There is no need to fix what is not broken. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Am 07.01.21 um 18:08 schrieb Guenther Alka: Not broken as it never worked (multi purpose Illumos Unix with a stable/long term stable/newest beta base). OI currently: always and only newest beta based so Yes: (maybe easy to say as I cannot help to do the needed work - unsure about the needed efforts) When I remember the first steps of OpenIndiana, the lack of a stable was a constant item on all meetings. When OmniOS started they first tried to use OpenIndiana as base what was more or less OpenSolaris at that time with too many dependencies. Then Illumos started as a minimalistic OS based on OpenSolaris and OmniOS used this as base. Now as OI is pure Illumos as base and OmniOS is more or less pure Illumos freezed in a fork per release there is no real reason to have two bases and two software repositories for different use cases with the problem for OI that the underlying Illumos can change from day to day. Gea You don't seem to have read my former answers, so I will retry: The most important answer you have to give is: Who will do the necessary work? Actual numbers: Number of active OI maintainers: Number of active OI maintainers with commit rights: 1 Number of testers (not also being a maintainer): 1 Number of admins (not also being a maintainer with commit rights): 0 More questions you should answer as a business man: - Do you have an estimation of the needed efforts, eg. for creating a minimal version (tdb!) of what you propose? - What are you willing to spend to start/support these efforts? We need to increase all the numbers I presented above before it makes even sense to discuss a change like you are proposing! OI is an open source project without any company background and without anybody getting money for what he/she is doing! As I wrote before: We don't lack good ideas, we lack people doing actual work! Andreas Am 07.01.2021 um 17:24 schrieb Chris: On 2021-01-07 06:02, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish community. If merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth it. And you guys have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea taken up again. It seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the long run. This is what we want to do. Base a desktop package ontop OmniOS stable (or LTS). I am interested in helping such an effort. Some people say yay, some say nay. Should we create a poll, to see how large the interest is? I vote: NAY. There is no need to fix what is not broken. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Not broken as it never worked (multi purpose Illumos Unix with a stable/long term stable/newest beta base). OI currently: always and only newest beta based so Yes: (maybe easy to say as I cannot help to do the needed work - unsure about the needed efforts) When I remember the first steps of OpenIndiana, the lack of a stable was a constant item on all meetings. When OmniOS started they first tried to use OpenIndiana as base what was more or less OpenSolaris at that time with too many dependencies. Then Illumos started as a minimalistic OS based on OpenSolaris and OmniOS used this as base. Now as OI is pure Illumos as base and OmniOS is more or less pure Illumos freezed in a fork per release there is no real reason to have two bases and two software repositories for different use cases with the problem for OI that the underlying Illumos can change from day to day. Gea Am 07.01.2021 um 17:24 schrieb Chris: On 2021-01-07 06:02, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish community. If merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth it. And you guys have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea taken up again. It seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the long run. This is what we want to do. Base a desktop package ontop OmniOS stable (or LTS). I am interested in helping such an effort. Some people say yay, some say nay. Should we create a poll, to see how large the interest is? I vote: NAY. There is no need to fix what is not broken. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On 2021-01-07 06:02, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish community. If merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth it. And you guys have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea taken up again. It seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the long run. This is what we want to do. Base a desktop package ontop OmniOS stable (or LTS). I am interested in helping such an effort. Some people say yay, some say nay. Should we create a poll, to see how large the interest is? I vote: NAY. There is no need to fix what is not broken. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Well spoken,, Gea! I am in favour of consolidating the OpenSolarish community. If merging would reinvogarate interest and momentum, it can be worth it. And you guys have been discussing this merging for ages, it is your old idea taken up again. It seems that several of you think this is the only way forward, in the long run. This is what we want to do. Base a desktop package ontop OmniOS stable (or LTS). I am interested in helping such an effort. Some people say yay, some say nay. Should we create a poll, to see how large the interest is? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
cc:omnios-discuss I am a bit late to this discussion. The same discussion happened when OmniTi closed OmniOS and OmniOS CE started. I was strongly in favour to combine OmniOS and OI efforts then as both are too small on their own to be relevant beside to a niche market each but it did not happened at that time. Maybe OI and OmniOS are now similar enough with the additional Open-ZFS offence that threatens both. I accept it is always hard to integrate two different communities where both have a different history, user and use cases but maybe it is now the time to retry. Last time the base was too different. The OmniOS repository while based on Illumos included the new VM/zone options from SmartOS while Illumos and so OpenIndioana does not as base is pure ongoing Illumos. So lets begin where both are strong in my opinion wnd where a win-win situation may be the case. OmniOS A long term stable, a stable and a bloody release in a minimalistik approach make it possiblbe to use it for mission critical professional server and storage use cases. It will not miss that, so using ongoing Illumos is not desirably. When OmniOS started, its repository was quite different to Illumos due the VM/zone additions from SmartOS. Please correct me but my impression is now that OmniOS bloody is not to different to Illumos and therefor OI minimal. When OmniOS started it was an option to use the OmniOS repository ex stable as base for OI. Main argument against as I heard was that the OI community was not able to support the OmniOS add-ons. It seems to me that this argument is no longer the case. All supported OmniOS releases (lts, stable bloody) seems not too different from pure Illumos regarding OI add-ons. OpenIndiana For me this is the true successor of OpenSolaris. This was a distribution to cover minimalistic server use cases up to desktop use. It shows what was possible and intended with next Solaris. Its repositoty covers both use cases. Stability was not the first demand. OpenIndiana follow this with ongoing Illumos developments and a superiour software repository for all its use cases. Dokumentation is also superiour to OmniOS. Maybe one must think about a possible win-win situation where both can retain their independence that is needed due their history and use case and where both can see an advantage. From my view and personal preferences (not involved in either), it seems that OmniOS stable (every 6 months) is quite near to pure Illumos so why not use this as base for OpenIndiana instead pure Illumos especially as many VM special add-ons from OmniOS are now in Illumos? Similar to OmniOS extra, add your repository on top. So a OI distribution can be basically OmniOS stable + OI repo instead Illumos + OI repo. Maybe use OmniOS basic +extra + the OI repository, just avoid double packages or simply do not allow OmniOS extra + OI simultaniously to allow same packages for both differently. What is the advantage: Mainly to combine basic efforts and to allow a seamless switch from OmniOS to OpenIndiana (or back when you remove the additional packages). For OmniOS it adds the OI community +use options, for OI it adds the stability of a stable or long term stable. To switch from OmniOS stable to OI unstable: add the OI repo + packages. To switch from OI to OmniOS stable, remove the oi repository and packages. If this does not work for OI, a switch back to Illumos is always an option on next snapshot release. regarding Open-ZFS I hope (and indeed expect) that the ZFS related parts are combined similar to Free-BSD in the future Gea @napp-it.org ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On 2021-01-06 12:19, Aurélien Larcher wrote: On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 8:58 PM Jim Klimov wrote: On January 6, 2021 4:33:23 PM UTC, Apostolos Syropoulos < asyropou...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>Is IDLE packaged by OI? Missing a dependency then? > >This means that IDLE should be packaged with the tkinter? >A.s. >-- >Apostolos Syropoulos >Xanthi, Greece Rather, IF it is packaged, then its IPS metadata (p5m file) should declare that IDLE package depends on tkinter and so requires it to get installed. It is actually my mistake... I added idle to the main python package as I did not know its purpose. I thought Python also provided it. Maybe it's just the ports/packages I've used in other OSs. You could still provide it as an option. So picking that option also drags in Tkinter as a depend(s). Jim -- Typos courtesy of K-9 Mail on my Android ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 8:58 PM Jim Klimov wrote: > On January 6, 2021 4:33:23 PM UTC, Apostolos Syropoulos < > asyropou...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >>Is IDLE packaged by OI? Missing a dependency then? > > > >This means that IDLE should be packaged with the tkinter? > >A.s. > >-- > >Apostolos Syropoulos > >Xanthi, Greece > > Rather, IF it is packaged, then its IPS metadata (p5m file) should declare > that IDLE package depends on tkinter and so requires it to get installed. > It is actually my mistake... I added idle to the main python package as I did not know its purpose. > > Jim > -- > Typos courtesy of K-9 Mail on my Android > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > -- --- Praise the Caffeine embeddings ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On January 6, 2021 4:33:23 PM UTC, Apostolos Syropoulos wrote: > >>Is IDLE packaged by OI? Missing a dependency then? > >This means that IDLE should be packaged with the tkinter? >A.s. >-- >Apostolos Syropoulos >Xanthi, Greece Rather, IF it is packaged, then its IPS metadata (p5m file) should declare that IDLE package depends on tkinter and so requires it to get installed. Jim -- Typos courtesy of K-9 Mail on my Android ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
>Is IDLE packaged by OI? Missing a dependency then? This means that IDLE should be packaged with the tkinter? A.s. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On January 5, 2021 4:58:46 PM UTC, Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss wrote: >>> $ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 >>> library/python/tkinter-37 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 >>You omitted the most important column: it should be i-- and not --- > >Today I installed the missing package and IDLE is working just fine. >BTW, this is a piece of information that should be added to the OI >documentation. > >Thank you for your help. >A.S. > >-- >Apostolos Syropoulos >Xanthi, Greece > > >___ >openindiana-discuss mailing list >openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org >https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss Is IDLE packaged by OI? Missing a dependency then? Jim -- Typos courtesy of K-9 Mail on my Android ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Am 05.01.21 um 17:58 schrieb Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss: $ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 library/python/tkinter-37 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 You omitted the most important column: it should be i-- and not --- Today I installed the missing package and IDLE is working just fine. BTW, this is a piece of information that should be added to the OI documentation. Feel free to add that information at an appropriate place and create a PR (pull request). Regards, Andreas ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
>> $ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 >> library/python/tkinter-37 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 >You omitted the most important column: it should be i-- and not --- Today I installed the missing package and IDLE is working just fine. BTW, this is a piece of information that should be added to the OI documentation. Thank you for your help. A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Maybe web developers or headless machines without X do not need it? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On 1/4/21 2:11 PM, Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss wrote: OK I got it but still the question is: Why tkinteris a separate package? IMHO, it makes nosense to have as a separate package. Afterall it is part of the core python distribution. Because some people want to install systems without all the X libraries that Tk brings in, so having Tkinter packaged separately allows that. -alan- ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
OK I got it but still the question is: Why tkinteris a separate package? IMHO, it makes nosense to have as a separate package. Afterall it is part of the core python distribution. AS Στάλθηκε από το Ταχυδρομείο Yahoo σε Android Στις Δευ, 4 Ιαν, 2021 στις 22:39, ο χρήστηςAndreas Wacknitz έγραψε: Am 04.01.21 um 18:44 schrieb Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss: >> Make sure you have installed tkinter-37: >> $ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 >> library/python/tkinter-37 (openindiana.org) 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 i-- >> >> For me it works as expected. > Well the package is installed but idle3.7 is not working: > > $ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 > library/python/tkinter-37 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 You omitted the most important column: it should be i-- and not --- > Now I compiled Python 3.9 > > $python3.9 --version > Python 3.9.1 > > and idle3.9 works just fine. Also, I have tried some > simple programs that make use of tkinter and there > is absolutely no problem. > > Best regards, > Apostolos > > -- > Apostolos Syropoulos > Xanthi, Greece > > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Am 04.01.21 um 18:44 schrieb Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss: Make sure you have installed tkinter-37: $ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 library/python/tkinter-37 (openindiana.org) 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 i-- For me it works as expected. Well the package is installed but idle3.7 is not working: $ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 library/python/tkinter-37 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 You omitted the most important column: it should be i-- and not --- Now I compiled Python 3.9 $python3.9 --version Python 3.9.1 and idle3.9 works just fine. Also, I have tried some simple programs that make use of tkinter and there is absolutely no problem. Best regards, Apostolos -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
>Make sure you have installed tkinter-37: >$ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 >library/python/tkinter-37 (openindiana.org) 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 i-- > >For me it works as expected. Well the package is installed but idle3.7 is not working: $ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 library/python/tkinter-37 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 Now I compiled Python 3.9 $python3.9 --version Python 3.9.1 and idle3.9 works just fine. Also, I have tried some simple programs that make use of tkinter and there is absolutely no problem. Best regards, Apostolos -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Am 04.01.21 um 17:10 schrieb Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss: On Monday, January 4, 2021, 5:00:08 PM GMT+2, Aurélien Larcher wrote: I am just a bit concerned that with the current model some things may diverge too much: last time I worked on updating Python 3.7 and 3.8 test suite results looked very different on OmniOS and OI. Also the merge commit strategy for the pkg5 repository makes it very difficult to follow history. This is quite irrelevant to the discussion but since you mentioned Python may ask why the Python's IDLE (Integrated Development and Learning Environment) is not working? When running it I get: $ idle3.7 ** IDLE can't import Tkinter. Your Python may not be configured for Tk. ** I think this is major problem since most simple GUI applications use tkinter. And since there is no pygame or anything else, one can do no GUI programming with Python. Am I missing something? Regards, Apostolos -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss Make sure you have installed tkinter-37: ─➤ pkg list -a|grep tkinter-37 library/python/tkinter-37 (openindiana.org) 3.7.7-2020.0.1.1 i-- For me it works as expected. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Monday, January 4, 2021, 5:00:08 PM GMT+2, Aurélien Larcher wrote: >I am just a bit concerned that with the current model some things may >diverge too much: last time I worked on updating Python 3.7 and 3.8 test >suite results looked very different on OmniOS and OI. >Also the merge commit strategy for the pkg5 repository makes it very >difficult to follow history. This is quite irrelevant to the discussion but since you mentioned Python may ask why the Python's IDLE (Integrated Development and Learning Environment) is not working? When running it I get: $ idle3.7 ** IDLE can't import Tkinter. Your Python may not be configured for Tk. ** I think this is major problem since most simple GUI applications use tkinter. And since there is no pygame or anything else, one can do no GUI programming with Python. Am I missing something? Regards, Apostolos -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 10:05 PM Chris wrote: > On 2020-12-31 04:25, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > > Am 30.12.20 um 21:14 schrieb Andreas Wacknitz: > >> Am 30.12.20 um 19:10 schrieb Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss: > >>> I have a problem with my mail list settings, so I write one single > >>> reply, adressing three different persons. I am a newbie to the > >>> OpenSolarish scene, so I dont know much about it, or who the people > >>> we should talk to, though. :) > >>> > >>> @Aurelien,Yes, I was quite certain I was not alone in seeing the > >>> disadvantages of having separate small teams instead of one single > >>> larger team. It is good that you people already had this discussion. > >>> Maybe it is time to revive your old discussion again? > >>> It was not diplomatic to say that OI was inferior, but now some > >>> additional water has passed under the bridge and you all have had > >>> some time to work and deliver your own product. I think that if > >>> people were more diplomatic it would benefit OpenSolarish, and the > >>> world as a whole. We dont want a cursing and yelling culture as in > >>> some other OSes no? > >>> I dont understand your statement of no vanilla illumos anymore. Is > >>> OmniOS not illumos, but OI is? In that case, that is sad, yes. But in > >>> the greater scheme of things, it would be better for OpenSolarish > >>> community even if we have to give up vanilla illumos. If we merge OI > >>> and OmniOS, it is not irrecoverable, it will be possible later to try > >>> to tweak our new distro to a more vanilla illumos distro. Or, if > >>> someone in the future, did the additional minor work to tweak the new > >>> merged distro to vanilla illumos - that would be much less work than > >>> creating OI today, I guess? > >>> > >>> I bet many more than I, would be very excited in one unified illumos > >>> distro where we merge OmniOS and OI. I understand there is lot of > >>> prestige involved, but if we dont do want OpenSolaris to diminish and > >>> die to Linux, we all maybe should put aside the prestige? :) > >>> > >>> > >>> @Andy,Regarding who will do all the work. Realistically, it will be > >>> you and the other OI devs who will do all the work. I bet several > >>> other people would love to help, but not all of us can do what you > >>> can do. I want to help though. Maybe help to coordinate, and help > >>> discuss with the OmniOS team? And write manuals? Of course, if we can > >>> merge OI and OmniOS there will be lot of work for you guys in the > >>> beginning. But in the long run your work will be less as there are > >>> more developers involved. And as you guys already have discussed this > >>> earlier, maybe it is time to rethink this old train of thought of > >>> yours, again? You know the process better now and have a shipped > >>> product, so you do stand on your own legs. A large team of talented > >>> developers is better than a small team? This would also cause some > >>> attention in the FOSS world, and the OpenSolarish community. More > >>> people will be exposed to your work, and benefit from it. There are > >>> already lot of work done by OmniOS, you and the OI devs could > >>> leverage their work? What is your thought of working with a new set > >>> of talented developers creating something new together that we all > >>> could benefit from? Is there too much prestige involved for this to > >>> be realistic? > >> Most OI maintainers are "dormant" at the moment. I have been the only > >> active member with commit rights for roughly three months now. > >> We don't even have enough people to test important things, eg. I have > >> asked to test and look at an update of bind without any reaction for > >> almost two weeks now. > >> > >> Adding a desktop on top of OmniOSce is A LOT OF WORK. Maintaining a > >> desktop is quite more complex than focussing on the server aspects of > >> an OS alone. The amount of work that is already done > >> for OI (many parts of it inherited from OpenSolaris) is tremendous. If > >> "we" start this endeavour it will most probably mean that you won't > >> see anything in months if not years. > >> In my eyes it will kill OI and in the end will leave Tribblix as the > >> only illumos based desktop OS. > >> > >> I haven't been involved in the earlier discussions but only read the > >> messages then. I just started to be more active at that time and > >> didn't feel experienced enough to take part at the discussion. > >> Today I am not sure whether a unification would be a good idea. Not > >> because I don't want to work with the OmniOSce guys but because we > >> have different interests. Sure, we share some technologies, > >> like illumos, the boot loader and IPS. But OmniOSce is targeted as a > >> server OS because that's the only area where people are willing to pay > >> for things. OmniOSce is a product of some companies > >> while OI is an all-purpose OS with a desktop created by people in > >> their spare time without any monetary interests
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On 2020-12-31 04:25, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: Am 30.12.20 um 21:14 schrieb Andreas Wacknitz: Am 30.12.20 um 19:10 schrieb Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss: I have a problem with my mail list settings, so I write one single reply, adressing three different persons. I am a newbie to the OpenSolarish scene, so I dont know much about it, or who the people we should talk to, though. :) @Aurelien,Yes, I was quite certain I was not alone in seeing the disadvantages of having separate small teams instead of one single larger team. It is good that you people already had this discussion. Maybe it is time to revive your old discussion again? It was not diplomatic to say that OI was inferior, but now some additional water has passed under the bridge and you all have had some time to work and deliver your own product. I think that if people were more diplomatic it would benefit OpenSolarish, and the world as a whole. We dont want a cursing and yelling culture as in some other OSes no? I dont understand your statement of no vanilla illumos anymore. Is OmniOS not illumos, but OI is? In that case, that is sad, yes. But in the greater scheme of things, it would be better for OpenSolarish community even if we have to give up vanilla illumos. If we merge OI and OmniOS, it is not irrecoverable, it will be possible later to try to tweak our new distro to a more vanilla illumos distro. Or, if someone in the future, did the additional minor work to tweak the new merged distro to vanilla illumos - that would be much less work than creating OI today, I guess? I bet many more than I, would be very excited in one unified illumos distro where we merge OmniOS and OI. I understand there is lot of prestige involved, but if we dont do want OpenSolaris to diminish and die to Linux, we all maybe should put aside the prestige? :) @Andy,Regarding who will do all the work. Realistically, it will be you and the other OI devs who will do all the work. I bet several other people would love to help, but not all of us can do what you can do. I want to help though. Maybe help to coordinate, and help discuss with the OmniOS team? And write manuals? Of course, if we can merge OI and OmniOS there will be lot of work for you guys in the beginning. But in the long run your work will be less as there are more developers involved. And as you guys already have discussed this earlier, maybe it is time to rethink this old train of thought of yours, again? You know the process better now and have a shipped product, so you do stand on your own legs. A large team of talented developers is better than a small team? This would also cause some attention in the FOSS world, and the OpenSolarish community. More people will be exposed to your work, and benefit from it. There are already lot of work done by OmniOS, you and the OI devs could leverage their work? What is your thought of working with a new set of talented developers creating something new together that we all could benefit from? Is there too much prestige involved for this to be realistic? Most OI maintainers are "dormant" at the moment. I have been the only active member with commit rights for roughly three months now. We don't even have enough people to test important things, eg. I have asked to test and look at an update of bind without any reaction for almost two weeks now. Adding a desktop on top of OmniOSce is A LOT OF WORK. Maintaining a desktop is quite more complex than focussing on the server aspects of an OS alone. The amount of work that is already done for OI (many parts of it inherited from OpenSolaris) is tremendous. If "we" start this endeavour it will most probably mean that you won't see anything in months if not years. In my eyes it will kill OI and in the end will leave Tribblix as the only illumos based desktop OS. I haven't been involved in the earlier discussions but only read the messages then. I just started to be more active at that time and didn't feel experienced enough to take part at the discussion. Today I am not sure whether a unification would be a good idea. Not because I don't want to work with the OmniOSce guys but because we have different interests. Sure, we share some technologies, like illumos, the boot loader and IPS. But OmniOSce is targeted as a server OS because that's the only area where people are willing to pay for things. OmniOSce is a product of some companies while OI is an all-purpose OS with a desktop created by people in their spare time without any monetary interests (at least to my knowledge). OmniOSce paying customers won't pay more to get a desktop and I don't expect that they will get many new paying desktop users. So there wouldn't be much to win for OmniOSce. Andreas Just to add to my former answer: What OI is not lacking is management, good ideas, recommendations. But what we are lacking is - Infrastructure: we only have a single build VM provided by EveryCity, who started OI but abandoned it in favour of SmartOS. We also
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
I have to say the build and package environment is one of the best in open source but takes some time to learn. It is really worth it though. I find it the best laid out one for the casual user who wants his own packages. I would use more but my machines are old and slow. There were and are some good developers here that know there stuff. I just want alternatives. Not everybody has to go down the same path. Wish all of you a better year. On 2020-12-31 07:25, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: It took some time and efforts to become familiar with OI's build system, though. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Am 30.12.20 um 21:14 schrieb Andreas Wacknitz: Am 30.12.20 um 19:10 schrieb Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss: I have a problem with my mail list settings, so I write one single reply, adressing three different persons. I am a newbie to the OpenSolarish scene, so I dont know much about it, or who the people we should talk to, though. :) @Aurelien,Yes, I was quite certain I was not alone in seeing the disadvantages of having separate small teams instead of one single larger team. It is good that you people already had this discussion. Maybe it is time to revive your old discussion again? It was not diplomatic to say that OI was inferior, but now some additional water has passed under the bridge and you all have had some time to work and deliver your own product. I think that if people were more diplomatic it would benefit OpenSolarish, and the world as a whole. We dont want a cursing and yelling culture as in some other OSes no? I dont understand your statement of no vanilla illumos anymore. Is OmniOS not illumos, but OI is? In that case, that is sad, yes. But in the greater scheme of things, it would be better for OpenSolarish community even if we have to give up vanilla illumos. If we merge OI and OmniOS, it is not irrecoverable, it will be possible later to try to tweak our new distro to a more vanilla illumos distro. Or, if someone in the future, did the additional minor work to tweak the new merged distro to vanilla illumos - that would be much less work than creating OI today, I guess? I bet many more than I, would be very excited in one unified illumos distro where we merge OmniOS and OI. I understand there is lot of prestige involved, but if we dont do want OpenSolaris to diminish and die to Linux, we all maybe should put aside the prestige? :) @Andy,Regarding who will do all the work. Realistically, it will be you and the other OI devs who will do all the work. I bet several other people would love to help, but not all of us can do what you can do. I want to help though. Maybe help to coordinate, and help discuss with the OmniOS team? And write manuals? Of course, if we can merge OI and OmniOS there will be lot of work for you guys in the beginning. But in the long run your work will be less as there are more developers involved. And as you guys already have discussed this earlier, maybe it is time to rethink this old train of thought of yours, again? You know the process better now and have a shipped product, so you do stand on your own legs. A large team of talented developers is better than a small team? This would also cause some attention in the FOSS world, and the OpenSolarish community. More people will be exposed to your work, and benefit from it. There are already lot of work done by OmniOS, you and the OI devs could leverage their work? What is your thought of working with a new set of talented developers creating something new together that we all could benefit from? Is there too much prestige involved for this to be realistic? Most OI maintainers are "dormant" at the moment. I have been the only active member with commit rights for roughly three months now. We don't even have enough people to test important things, eg. I have asked to test and look at an update of bind without any reaction for almost two weeks now. Adding a desktop on top of OmniOSce is A LOT OF WORK. Maintaining a desktop is quite more complex than focussing on the server aspects of an OS alone. The amount of work that is already done for OI (many parts of it inherited from OpenSolaris) is tremendous. If "we" start this endeavour it will most probably mean that you won't see anything in months if not years. In my eyes it will kill OI and in the end will leave Tribblix as the only illumos based desktop OS. I haven't been involved in the earlier discussions but only read the messages then. I just started to be more active at that time and didn't feel experienced enough to take part at the discussion. Today I am not sure whether a unification would be a good idea. Not because I don't want to work with the OmniOSce guys but because we have different interests. Sure, we share some technologies, like illumos, the boot loader and IPS. But OmniOSce is targeted as a server OS because that's the only area where people are willing to pay for things. OmniOSce is a product of some companies while OI is an all-purpose OS with a desktop created by people in their spare time without any monetary interests (at least to my knowledge). OmniOSce paying customers won't pay more to get a desktop and I don't expect that they will get many new paying desktop users. So there wouldn't be much to win for OmniOSce. Andreas Just to add to my former answer: What OI is not lacking is management, good ideas, recommendations. But what we are lacking is - Infrastructure: we only have a single build VM provided by EveryCity, who started OI but abandoned it in favour of SmartOS. We also only have a single package server provided by
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020, Aur?lien Larcher wrote: ; I think merging both makes sense to gain momentum and stopping reinventing ; the wheel given the number of developers (us pulling from OmniOS and ; Dominik packaging stuff that we already have). I wasn't originally subscribed to this list but I've caught up via the archives. This reply will be out of the thread order since it's to a message I was Ccd on. As others have said, the two distributions are quite different, and while there are a few areas where there is overlap, there aren't actually as many as a lot of people seem to think. Like a lot of the OmniOS developers, I work on OmniOS core because I need it for my business. The core is small and has stable and long-term branches, with structured releases that mostly do not require a reboot. I don't need a desktop or any of the additional software. My other work on illumos is mostly as a hobby and a way to learn, and I generally do that work against upstream illumos-gate so that all distributions benefit. Josh has already referred to the work I'm doing to upgrade ksh93 (and make it easier to maintain in the future), but things like adding support to gate for building with openssl 1.1, or improving support for 64-bit PCI come under the same umbrella. I see references to the OmniOS Extra repository from time to time and I think it's worth clarifying what this is. It's one of several bolt-on repositories for OmniOS that provides additional packages and it keeps itself to itself under /opt/ooce as far as possible. It does not have stable branches and doesn't have any of the guarantees that there are around OmniOS core. It was originally created to hold the extra packages needed to build OmniOS itself, and to run the infrastructure. Other packages have been added by the OmniOS community, and sometimes as a direct request from users with a support contract. In particular, it is not trying to be a massive package repository, or to support a desktop environment. As an example, the few X11 libraries and headers which were added to it are there solely to support building OpenJDK 11 for OmniOS core. Speaking of OpenJDK 11, that's one recent example of the collaboration that's already occurring. OmniOS picked up Peter's work on OpenJDK pretty much as it was and integrated it to core. Gcc is another example - OmniOS benefitted directly from the work that Aurelien did to update gcc in OpenIndiana and that work is in the central https://github.com/illumos/gcc/ so it's there for all distributions that want it. In the other direction, OpenIndiana has integrated the updated IPS tooling with support for python3 from the OmniOS repository, and the kvm and bhyve branded zones. I don't speak for the rest of the OmniOS developers, or for the users, but I don't personally think it makes sense to try and merge the two distributions. They are different and have different goals and there is not that much overlap at the core. Andy ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Guys, my apologies for yahoo mail eliminating the new lines and make a huge Wall of Text. I always paragraph well, but yahoo messes everything up. I will try to separate paragraphs with dots now. . @Peter Tribble,You have a point in that it is easier for a lone developer to do what he wants, in his own pace because no one will mess up his distro However, the existence of OpenSolarish is threatened, and if we want OpenSolarish to live and thrive, we maybe need to think differently? If we just continue to do what we always have done, the outcome will be the same. To change the outcome, we need to act differently. Just look at OpenZFS. If the illumos ZFS developers have acted differently, there would be no fork of OpenZFS. As an outsider, it is clear to me that we need to join forces, all of us in the OpenSolarish camp. Lest OpenSolarish will not survive. . Peter, how about this suggestion then? We always use the latest OmniOS LTS as a base? LTS distros are more stable, and exists for 3 years. Then a lone developer has 3 years time to do whatever he wants in his own pace. No one messes up the LTS distro during that time. Could this suggestion work for a lone developer? What is your opinion on always using LTS distro as the base, and adding a desktop environment ontop? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 at 13:00, Peter Tribble wrote: > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:39 AM Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss < > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org> wrote: > > A question. I am sure this has been discussed before, but maybe it is time > > to update the discussion? :) > > As I have understood it, OmniOS is a robust server OS with no good desktop > > environment. It is possible to install X11, though: > > https://geekblood.wordpress.com/2017/10/26/installing-x11-and-a-desktop-environment-on-omnios/ > > Would it be possible to merge OI and OmniOS? Say, try to transform OI into > > a desktop environment ontop OmniOS? Both OSes share lot of common ground, > > so technically it would not be impossible to for instance port MATE to > > OmniOS? > > OpenSolarish is a bit fragmented as of now. There are several developers > > working on their own stuff, with different IPS repos, etc. If we could > > unite some of the work, OpenSolarish would benefit as a whole. > > > > Not necessarily. And that's the problem. > > Fundamentally, it's very easy if all you have to do is maintain a > single-purpose > distribution and have total control of everything that goes in and out. > > Once you try and build a general-purpose distribution, you need some way to > coordinate > between different groups working with different cadences and trying to > produce different > products for different types of user. That generates friction and conflict, > and requires > additional manpower (aka waste, in lean terminology). > > The reality is that there isn't a huge amount of duplicate work - distros > can pick and choose > whatever they want/need from others *as they see fit* and *to their own > timescales*. In some places we do have duplicate work, and I think that's the best place to focus first on adjusting processes. One example where we have hopefully improved things a bit is GCC, where there's a common repository for all illumos projects: https://github.com/illumos/gcc And a plan for maintaining it: https://github.com/illumos/ipd/blob/master/ipd/0007/README.md I think we could and should do similar things for other heavy lift software that has a constant upgrade cycle; e.g., Python, Java, etc. I've been speaking with some folks from OmniOS about a new process for updating ksh93 so that we can all benefit, and sendmail has seen similar attention in the past. I know the OmniOS folks are pretty much on top of Python and Java releases in their distribution, and I expect OI could adopt some of the work they're doing there (e.g., version and patch selection, build steps) without a great deal of additional testing beyond what is already done by the OmniOS folks. There is a lot of software for the desktop use case that OI supports that isn't likely to get shipped on OmniOS systems any time soon, but that's OK. What we should focus on is reducing the effort to keep the common software up-to-date just once, where possible, without requiring everybody to agree on what makes our distributions unique. I am happy to help anybody who wants to get a common repository started under the illumos organisation, and also to offer suggestions for what might go into a plan for updating it where I can (like the GCC IPD). Cheers. -- Joshua M. Clulow http://blog.sysmgr.org ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:39 AM Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss < openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org> wrote: > A question. I am sure this has been discussed before, but maybe it is time > to update the discussion? :) > As I have understood it, OmniOS is a robust server OS with no good desktop > environment. It is possible to install X11, though: > https://geekblood.wordpress.com/2017/10/26/installing-x11-and-a-desktop-environment-on-omnios/ > Would it be possible to merge OI and OmniOS? Say, try to transform OI into > a desktop environment ontop OmniOS? Both OSes share lot of common ground, > so technically it would not be impossible to for instance port MATE to > OmniOS? > OpenSolarish is a bit fragmented as of now. There are several developers > working on their own stuff, with different IPS repos, etc. If we could > unite some of the work, OpenSolarish would benefit as a whole. > Not necessarily. And that's the problem. Fundamentally, it's very easy if all you have to do is maintain a single-purpose distribution and have total control of everything that goes in and out. Once you try and build a general-purpose distribution, you need some way to coordinate between different groups working with different cadences and trying to produce different products for different types of user. That generates friction and conflict, and requires additional manpower (aka waste, in lean terminology). The reality is that there isn't a huge amount of duplicate work - distros can pick and choose whatever they want/need from others *as they see fit* and *to their own timescales*. > OmniOS would get new developers, a good desktop environment, and also lot > of users coming from OI. > OI would benefit from all the work the OmniOS developers are doing in > getting a stable and robust server OS, so it would free up OI developers to > more quickly advance desktop environment. Lot of synergy effects and > win-win. OmniOS does the server backend, and OI do the desktop frontend. > This lessens the burden for the developers. The more developers, the better. > The situation is similar to two competing camps developing ReactOS - the > open sourced WindowsXP clone. Why not unite the two teams instead? It would > be much less work for the OI developers if we could build on the excellent > work from OmniOS team, and vice versa. Remember, we all love OpenSolarish > and it would be better to have one single strong distro, than several > competing distros. FreeBSD has only one distro and that is better than the > Linux fragmentation mess today. There are only so many OpenSolarish > developers, and our community would benefit from one single strong distro. > Or, have I missed something? Like, for instance, do the illumos community > also suffer from "Not Invented Here" syndrome like some other OSes? The > only truly innovative OS is Solaris, and lets keep it that way by > consolidating and uniting our teams so we can make faster progress? I am > interested in trying to help the community too. Because Solaris is the best > OS! :) > > > BTW. Earlier I reported that OpenZFS renders ZFS disks unusable: If you > import a zpool v28 and ZFS v5, into Linux using OpenZFS, then Solaris 11.3 > cannot import the zpool again. Someone suggested that Linux OpenZFS renames > the disks as "/dev/sda" instead of "/dev/c0t0d0" in the zpool. So this > problem could maybe be fixed by importing and exporting the zpool by a > illumos distro which would automatically rename the "/dev/sda" entries to > "/dev/c0t0d0" back which means Solaris v11.3 could import the zpool. I have > not tested this yet, but it sounds plausible? > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
@Andreas,>Adding a desktop on top of OmniOSce is A LOT OF WORK. Maintaining a >desktop is quite more complex than focussing on the server aspects of an >OS alone. The amount of work that is already done >for OI (many parts of it inherited from OpenSolaris) is tremendous. If >"we" start this endeavour it will most probably mean that you won't see >anything in months if not years.Yes, I understand it is a lot of work to add a >desktop on OmniOS. But, which is less work, maintain an entire OS like OI, or >maintain a desktop ontop OmniOS? If it is more work to maintain a desktop >ontop OmniOS, then we should not merge the OSes. But if there is less work, >then it might be an idea to merge the OSes. >In my eyes it will kill OI and in the end will leave Tribblix as the >only illumos based desktop OS.I did not know you are the only OI developer >(working on your spare time). That does not sound good at all. How long can >you endure to work alone? I dont feel too tempted to join a community with >only one maintainer. Do we expect an inflow of fresh developers into OI, if >not, it is already dead. How does the future for OI look like? Andy working >alone on his spare time? That is not sustainable. OI will slowly die with only >one developer. What can be done to stop this evolution? If we dont join >forces, OpenSolarish will die. Do we want that?When I google, it says that >OmniOS is illumos? But apparently it is not? Can someone explain? What is the >disadvantage of OmniOS not being illumos? Tribblix, how large is that team? Dont they want to join forces and work with us? Or do they prefer to work alone? Imagine Andy and the Tribblix team working on either OI, or on a desktop ontop OmniOS - that would give momentum and might attract people. Something radical needs to be done to break the downwards spiraling circle. Should we try to constructively discuss that or let OpenSolarish die, so we all are forced to go to FreeBSD or even worse - Linux? What do we want? What do Andy want? What do Lauren want? (It seems some people are against merging). What do _you_ want? @Bob FriesenhanI understand OmniOS and OI have different use cases. But is it bad to base a desktop ontop a server OS? Are there not less work to base a desktop ontop a stable server os? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Am 30.12.20 um 19:10 schrieb Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss: I have a problem with my mail list settings, so I write one single reply, adressing three different persons. I am a newbie to the OpenSolarish scene, so I dont know much about it, or who the people we should talk to, though. :) @Aurelien,Yes, I was quite certain I was not alone in seeing the disadvantages of having separate small teams instead of one single larger team. It is good that you people already had this discussion. Maybe it is time to revive your old discussion again? It was not diplomatic to say that OI was inferior, but now some additional water has passed under the bridge and you all have had some time to work and deliver your own product. I think that if people were more diplomatic it would benefit OpenSolarish, and the world as a whole. We dont want a cursing and yelling culture as in some other OSes no? I dont understand your statement of no vanilla illumos anymore. Is OmniOS not illumos, but OI is? In that case, that is sad, yes. But in the greater scheme of things, it would be better for OpenSolarish community even if we have to give up vanilla illumos. If we merge OI and OmniOS, it is not irrecoverable, it will be possible later to try to tweak our new distro to a more vanilla illumos distro. Or, if someone in the future, did the additional minor work to tweak the new merged distro to vanilla illumos - that would be much less work than creating OI today, I guess? I bet many more than I, would be very excited in one unified illumos distro where we merge OmniOS and OI. I understand there is lot of prestige involved, but if we dont do want OpenSolaris to diminish and die to Linux, we all maybe should put aside the prestige? :) @Andy,Regarding who will do all the work. Realistically, it will be you and the other OI devs who will do all the work. I bet several other people would love to help, but not all of us can do what you can do. I want to help though. Maybe help to coordinate, and help discuss with the OmniOS team? And write manuals? Of course, if we can merge OI and OmniOS there will be lot of work for you guys in the beginning. But in the long run your work will be less as there are more developers involved. And as you guys already have discussed this earlier, maybe it is time to rethink this old train of thought of yours, again? You know the process better now and have a shipped product, so you do stand on your own legs. A large team of talented developers is better than a small team? This would also cause some attention in the FOSS world, and the OpenSolarish community. More people will be exposed to your work, and benefit from it. There are already lot of work done by OmniOS, you and the OI devs could leverage their work? What is your thought of working with a new set of talented developers creating something new together that we all could benefit from? Is there too much prestige involved for this to be realistic? Most OI maintainers are "dormant" at the moment. I have been the only active member with commit rights for roughly three months now. We don't even have enough people to test important things, eg. I have asked to test and look at an update of bind without any reaction for almost two weeks now. Adding a desktop on top of OmniOSce is A LOT OF WORK. Maintaining a desktop is quite more complex than focussing on the server aspects of an OS alone. The amount of work that is already done for OI (many parts of it inherited from OpenSolaris) is tremendous. If "we" start this endeavour it will most probably mean that you won't see anything in months if not years. In my eyes it will kill OI and in the end will leave Tribblix as the only illumos based desktop OS. I haven't been involved in the earlier discussions but only read the messages then. I just started to be more active at that time and didn't feel experienced enough to take part at the discussion. Today I am not sure whether a unification would be a good idea. Not because I don't want to work with the OmniOSce guys but because we have different interests. Sure, we share some technologies, like illumos, the boot loader and IPS. But OmniOSce is targeted as a server OS because that's the only area where people are willing to pay for things. OmniOSce is a product of some companies while OI is an all-purpose OS with a desktop created by people in their spare time without any monetary interests (at least to my knowledge). OmniOSce paying customers won't pay more to get a desktop and I don't expect that they will get many new paying desktop users. So there wouldn't be much to win for OmniOSce. Andreas ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020, Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss wrote: I bet many more than I, would be very excited in one unified illumos distro where we merge OmniOS and OI. I understand there is lot of prestige involved, but if we dont do want OpenSolaris to diminish and die to Linux, we all maybe should put aside the prestige? :) Many people would not be exited since the two distributions have very different objectives (extreme stability & spartan footprint vs rapid-release + full desktop). If you were actually using these two distributions for some time, the difference in objectives would be obvious. There appears to be quite a lot of sharing going on since the source repositories are shared and common elements get pushed up to Illumos. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ Public Key, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/public-key.txt ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Am 30.12.20 um 12:38 schrieb Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss: A question. I am sure this has been discussed before, but maybe it is time to update the discussion? :) As I have understood it, OmniOS is a robust server OS with no good desktop environment. It is possible to install X11, though:https://geekblood.wordpress.com/2017/10/26/installing-x11-and-a-desktop-environment-on-omnios/ Would it be possible to merge OI and OmniOS? Say, try to transform OI into a desktop environment ontop OmniOS? Both OSes share lot of common ground, so technically it would not be impossible to for instance port MATE to OmniOS? OpenSolarish is a bit fragmented as of now. There are several developers working on their own stuff, with different IPS repos, etc. If we could unite some of the work, OpenSolarish would benefit as a whole. OmniOS would get new developers, a good desktop environment, and also lot of users coming from OI. OI would benefit from all the work the OmniOS developers are doing in getting a stable and robust server OS, so it would free up OI developers to more quickly advance desktop environment. Lot of synergy effects and win-win. OmniOS does the server backend, and OI do the desktop frontend. This lessens the burden for the developers. The more developers, the better. The situation is similar to two competing camps developing ReactOS - the open sourced WindowsXP clone. Why not unite the two teams instead? It would be much less work for the OI developers if we could build on the excellent work from OmniOS team, and vice versa. Remember, we all love OpenSolarish and it would be better to have one single strong distro, than several competing distros. FreeBSD has only one distro and that is better than the Linux fragmentation mess today. There are only so many OpenSolarish developers, and our community would benefit from one single strong distro. Or, have I missed something? Like, for instance, do the illumos community also suffer from "Not Invented Here" syndrome like some other OSes? The only truly innovative OS is Solaris, and lets keep it that way by consolidating and uniting our teams so we can make faster progress? I am interested in trying to help the community too. Because Solaris is the best OS! :) BTW. Earlier I reported that OpenZFS renders ZFS disks unusable: If you import a zpool v28 and ZFS v5, into Linux using OpenZFS, then Solaris 11.3 cannot import the zpool again. Someone suggested that Linux OpenZFS renames the disks as "/dev/sda" instead of "/dev/c0t0d0" in the zpool. So this problem could maybe be fixed by importing and exporting the zpool by a illumos distro which would automatically rename the "/dev/sda" entries to "/dev/c0t0d0" back which means Solaris v11.3 could import the zpool. I have not tested this yet, but it sounds plausible? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss I was about to write a longer answer to your proposal but stopped in the middle and just want to ask one question: Who should do the necessary work? Regards, Andreas ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
This is something that was discussed in the past when OmniOSCE was created but back then there was a focus on providing continuity of releases and too few people: the goal for to have a true reference distribution. Back then Adam and I had suggested to merge the distributions given the size of our respective communities: use OmniOS as a core OS with their release schedule and use oi-userland to provide extra packages but there was no interest. Tobias suggested to me that OI being an inferior distribution I should better use my time and provide X11 packages to OmniOS instead. Obviously his comment did not motivate me much :) I think merging both makes sense to gain momentum and stopping reinventing the wheel given the number of developers (us pulling from OmniOS and Dominik packaging stuff that we already have). But then it means that there is no illumos distribution actually running vanilla illumos which is a bit sad. We've had good interactions on compilers and pkg so that's at least a great start. Also this may be an overhead for Andy and he should have a good idea if it is doable, if this is something that would be positive for him and what would be the milestones. On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 12:39 PM Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss < openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org> wrote: > A question. I am sure this has been discussed before, but maybe it is time > to update the discussion? :) > As I have understood it, OmniOS is a robust server OS with no good desktop > environment. It is possible to install X11, though: > https://geekblood.wordpress.com/2017/10/26/installing-x11-and-a-desktop-environment-on-omnios/ > Would it be possible to merge OI and OmniOS? Say, try to transform OI into > a desktop environment ontop OmniOS? Both OSes share lot of common ground, > so technically it would not be impossible to for instance port MATE to > OmniOS? > OpenSolarish is a bit fragmented as of now. There are several developers > working on their own stuff, with different IPS repos, etc. If we could > unite some of the work, OpenSolarish would benefit as a whole. > OmniOS would get new developers, a good desktop environment, and also lot > of users coming from OI. > OI would benefit from all the work the OmniOS developers are doing in > getting a stable and robust server OS, so it would free up OI developers to > more quickly advance desktop environment. Lot of synergy effects and > win-win. OmniOS does the server backend, and OI do the desktop frontend. > This lessens the burden for the developers. The more developers, the better. > The situation is similar to two competing camps developing ReactOS - the > open sourced WindowsXP clone. Why not unite the two teams instead? It would > be much less work for the OI developers if we could build on the excellent > work from OmniOS team, and vice versa. Remember, we all love OpenSolarish > and it would be better to have one single strong distro, than several > competing distros. FreeBSD has only one distro and that is better than the > Linux fragmentation mess today. There are only so many OpenSolarish > developers, and our community would benefit from one single strong distro. > Or, have I missed something? Like, for instance, do the illumos community > also suffer from "Not Invented Here" syndrome like some other OSes? The > only truly innovative OS is Solaris, and lets keep it that way by > consolidating and uniting our teams so we can make faster progress? I am > interested in trying to help the community too. Because Solaris is the best > OS! :) > > > BTW. Earlier I reported that OpenZFS renders ZFS disks unusable: If you > import a zpool v28 and ZFS v5, into Linux using OpenZFS, then Solaris 11.3 > cannot import the zpool again. Someone suggested that Linux OpenZFS renames > the disks as "/dev/sda" instead of "/dev/c0t0d0" in the zpool. So this > problem could maybe be fixed by importing and exporting the zpool by a > illumos distro which would automatically rename the "/dev/sda" entries to > "/dev/c0t0d0" back which means Solaris v11.3 could import the zpool. I have > not tested this yet, but it sounds plausible? > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > -- --- Praise the Caffeine embeddings ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
[OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
A question. I am sure this has been discussed before, but maybe it is time to update the discussion? :) As I have understood it, OmniOS is a robust server OS with no good desktop environment. It is possible to install X11, though:https://geekblood.wordpress.com/2017/10/26/installing-x11-and-a-desktop-environment-on-omnios/ Would it be possible to merge OI and OmniOS? Say, try to transform OI into a desktop environment ontop OmniOS? Both OSes share lot of common ground, so technically it would not be impossible to for instance port MATE to OmniOS? OpenSolarish is a bit fragmented as of now. There are several developers working on their own stuff, with different IPS repos, etc. If we could unite some of the work, OpenSolarish would benefit as a whole. OmniOS would get new developers, a good desktop environment, and also lot of users coming from OI. OI would benefit from all the work the OmniOS developers are doing in getting a stable and robust server OS, so it would free up OI developers to more quickly advance desktop environment. Lot of synergy effects and win-win. OmniOS does the server backend, and OI do the desktop frontend. This lessens the burden for the developers. The more developers, the better. The situation is similar to two competing camps developing ReactOS - the open sourced WindowsXP clone. Why not unite the two teams instead? It would be much less work for the OI developers if we could build on the excellent work from OmniOS team, and vice versa. Remember, we all love OpenSolarish and it would be better to have one single strong distro, than several competing distros. FreeBSD has only one distro and that is better than the Linux fragmentation mess today. There are only so many OpenSolarish developers, and our community would benefit from one single strong distro. Or, have I missed something? Like, for instance, do the illumos community also suffer from "Not Invented Here" syndrome like some other OSes? The only truly innovative OS is Solaris, and lets keep it that way by consolidating and uniting our teams so we can make faster progress? I am interested in trying to help the community too. Because Solaris is the best OS! :) BTW. Earlier I reported that OpenZFS renders ZFS disks unusable: If you import a zpool v28 and ZFS v5, into Linux using OpenZFS, then Solaris 11.3 cannot import the zpool again. Someone suggested that Linux OpenZFS renames the disks as "/dev/sda" instead of "/dev/c0t0d0" in the zpool. So this problem could maybe be fixed by importing and exporting the zpool by a illumos distro which would automatically rename the "/dev/sda" entries to "/dev/c0t0d0" back which means Solaris v11.3 could import the zpool. I have not tested this yet, but it sounds plausible? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
