Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
OI is my main desktop. I have been trying to ignore all the shortcomings of GNOME 2 because I find that ZFS, zones and DTrace are far more important. I'd really like some of these bugs to be patched. I have a Linux laptop running Fedora and XFCE as a WM, but it's a question of performance there. Lack of a WM would seriously hamper my possibility to keep OI as my main OS. My two cents... Bryan On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 2:30 AM, låzaro netad...@lex-sa.cu wrote: well, my probing in the #mate channel was a disaster, I'd talk with a developer and I has been trolled in front the Developer by a project's user, me and an OI's user. A guy named Stefano, marked in the about as developer, was offering join to the #openindiana to talk about the subject. I would try it via Mailing list, after pull Stefano to #openindiana Cinnamon is from a to Linux Mint... Thread name: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future Mail number: 16 Date: Tue, Nov 06, 2012 In reply to: Apostolos Syropoulos MATE project could see in OI a choose for climb in the desktops enviroment war. There is another Gnome fork named Cinammon (I guest) Indeed and here's the link: https://github.com/linuxmint/Cinnamon A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- Warning! 100'000 pelos de escoba fueron introducidos satisfactoriamente en su puerto USB. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
well, my probing in the #mate channel was a disaster, I'd talk with a developer and I has been trolled in front the Developer by a project's user, me and an OI's user. A guy named Stefano, marked in the about as developer, was offering join to the #openindiana to talk about the subject. I would try it via Mailing list, after pull Stefano to #openindiana Cinnamon is from a to Linux Mint... Thread name: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future Mail number: 16 Date: Tue, Nov 06, 2012 In reply to: Apostolos Syropoulos MATE project could see in OI a choose for climb in the desktops enviroment war. There is another Gnome fork named Cinammon (I guest) Indeed and here's the link: https://github.com/linuxmint/Cinnamon A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- Warning! 100'000 pelos de escoba fueron introducidos satisfactoriamente en su puerto USB. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
Mate's developer Stefano, say we could start building mate in the version 1.5 quote from IRC: 08:45stefano-k | so... I suggest you to start to build 1.5 MATE development tarballs 08:45stefano-k | because there are a lot of package less 08:46stefano-k | http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/building:1.6 08:46stefano-k | http://pub.mate-desktop.org/releases/1.5/ Thread name: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future Mail number: 1 Date: Tue, Nov 06, 2012 In reply to: Apostolos Syropoulos locale_t/newlocale()/uselocale() and the *_l() apis are hardly Linuxize your OS, they are POSIX. I was not talking about these things but about the adoption of things like udev. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- Warning! 100'000 pelos de escoba fueron introducidos satisfactoriamente en su puerto USB. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
Irek Szczesniak wrote: Stubs won't be allowed, too. configure will just fail if they detect a stub which still uses or relies on setlocale(). For what it's worth, the point of a stub would be to ignore attempts to change locale, not to try to change the process-level locale on the fly. -- James Carlson 42.703N 71.076W carls...@workingcode.com ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
in my country peoples say when a door is just closed a windows si opened I guest we could join to the MATE project and ask the dev for a less Linuxised enviroment. We could have the initiative, perphaps the MATE project could see in OI a choose for climb in the desktops enviroment war. There is another Gnome fork named Cinammon (I guest) anyway, I'll join to the mate community for ask if their could programming looking to the OI's enviromment. Not all could be linuxed and gnome is already linuxed, perphaps the MATE wanna help OI, unless ask to the community for us... Thread name: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future Mail number: 13 Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2012 In reply to: Apostolos Syropoulos https://mail.gnome.org/archives/distributor-list/2012-November/msg2.html The GNOME community today announced the EOL of their fallback mode, These people have created a desktop for Linux and they do not care about anything else. Unfortunately, this happens with many projects. So either you Linuxize your OS or it drops dead... A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- Warning! 100'000 pelos de escoba fueron introducidos satisfactoriamente en su puerto USB. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
locale_t/newlocale()/uselocale() and the *_l() apis are hardly Linuxize your OS, they are POSIX. I was not talking about these things but about the adoption of things like udev. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
MATE project could see in OI a choose for climb in the desktops enviroment war. There is another Gnome fork named Cinammon (I guest) Indeed and here's the link: https://github.com/linuxmint/Cinnamon A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On 11/ 6/12 03:18 AM, låzaro wrote: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/distributor-list/2012-November/msg2.html The GNOME community today announced the EOL of their fallback mode, On 11/ 6/12 08:23 PM, Apostolos Syropoulos wrote: MATE project could see in OI a choose for climb in the desktops enviroment war. There is another Gnome fork named Cinammon (I guest) Indeed and here's the link: https://github.com/linuxmint/Cinnamon But since Cinnamon is just a small piggyback on Gnome 3, so I doubt that the recent decision can be undone there. Although it's of course interesting to profit from Oracle's work on Gnome3, and circumvent the ugly parts with Cinnamon -- Dr.Udo GrabowskiInst.f.Meteorology a.Climate Research IMK-ASF-SAT www-imk.fzk.de/asf/sat/grabowski/ www.imk-asf.kit.edu/english/sat.php KIT - Karlsruhe Institute of Technologyhttp://www.kit.edu Postfach 3640,76021 Karlsruhe,Germany T:(+49)721 608-26026 F:-926026 ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On 11/ 1/12 02:29 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 11/ 1/12 02:20 PM, Irek Szczesniak wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Adams t12nsloo...@gmail.com wrote: from what I remember of the conversations of the time, we cannot move to Gnome 3 because of certain Linux dependencies ... Gnome 2 is no longer changing, and no longer being patched ... The problem with Gnome 3 is AFAIK mostly a problem of Illumos libc That's just one of the problems. You'll also need better graphics driver support, unless you don't mind telling people to just stick to the Nvidia closed driver and ensure the illumos kernel remains 100% binary compatible with the private interfaces the nvidia driver uses from the Solaris kernel. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/distributor-list/2012-November/msg2.html The GNOME community today announced the EOL of their fallback mode, forcing GNOME 3 users to full OpenGL support or finding another desktop. For people without hardware accelerated OpenGL (i.e. illumos users not using either Nvidia's driver or an Intel chipset supported by the older DRI code in illumos), they recommend the Mesa llvmpipe backend, which requires a llvm port to your platform (which I think may be available for Solarish OS'es on x86, but not SPARC). -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Engineering - http://blogs.oracle.com/alanc ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/distributor-list/2012-November/msg2.html The GNOME community today announced the EOL of their fallback mode, These people have created a desktop for Linux and they do not care about anything else. Unfortunately, this happens with many projects. So either you Linuxize your OS or it drops dead... A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On 11/ 3/12 04:55 PM, Milan Jurik wrote: Hi, On út, 2012-10-30 at 13:27 -0400, låzaro wrote: Hi all, as many people don't wanna see, gnome future is like a submarine without roof. So, my question. What about make the new gnome's fork as default desktop enviroment, just like is making linux mint. OI always have the step in the next time. That project look like very good with a lot of good toys... at first - why to make new fork if there is one already - MATE ? On 11/ 1/12 02:29 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/distributor-list/2012-November/msg2.html The GNOME community today announced the EOL of their fallback mode, forcing GNOME 3 users to full OpenGL support or finding another desktop. In view of these changes, and the fact that this will probably also not work inside a VM, I would indeed suggest to move to MATE, as this is a way to advance Gnome2, and gtk3 may be implemented there, since I suspect that a lot of programs will move to gtk3 in the not so far future. And XFCE as a lightweight alternative for those who don't need the full-scale desktop. In the long term, Gnome3 Shell together with full OpenGL is something that will quickly vanish, only residing as a niche product in a few mobiles not running Android or MS ...they try to couple two totally orthogonal usages into one, which simply cannot sell. A shoot into their own head. -- Dr.Udo GrabowskiInst.f.Meteorology a.Climate Research IMK-ASF-SAT www-imk.fzk.de/asf/sat/grabowski/ www.imk-asf.kit.edu/english/sat.php KIT - Karlsruhe Institute of Technologyhttp://www.kit.edu Postfach 3640,76021 Karlsruhe,Germany T:(+49)721 608-26026 F:-926026 ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Apostolos Syropoulos asyropou...@yahoo.com wrote: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/distributor-list/2012-November/msg2.html The GNOME community today announced the EOL of their fallback mode, These people have created a desktop for Linux and they do not care about anything else. Unfortunately, this happens with many projects. So either you Linuxize your OS or it drops dead... locale_t/newlocale()/uselocale() and the *_l() apis are hardly Linuxize your OS, they are POSIX. I talked to the Gnome people about this issue. It seems the initial consumers are xml/xsl processing (e.g. xml/xsl @lang and sort directives), which is used *everywhere* and GtkCalendar. The other point was that the locale_t functions are used in shared libraries, which should be able to do locale processing in all locales the user wants, but should not change the per process global locale to avoid race conditions with other shared libraries. Stubs won't be allowed, too. configure will just fail if they detect a stub which still uses or relies on setlocale(). A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss Irek ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On 2012-11-01 18:18, Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: I do not feel similarly :) if it didn't feature a GUI we wouldn't notice or care. I felt similarly for decades - on either linux or solaris, an X11 environment for me was just a way to: 1) Run many terminals instead of one in text mode, 2) Run installers which demand GUI, 3) Run some programs that need to run for a long time during which my ssh session could get disconnected (VNC or text-mode screen could solve most of these situations). Now that I have a laptop whose primary OS is OI, my attitude towards graphics running over the Unix core has changed. Still, there are just so many features and programs that I need - and they do work already - like Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, terminals and VBox. At the moment the driver problem is greater in my opinion - lack of USB3, newer CPU-integrated Radeons, Wifi and such support is worse than the lack of shiny newest versions of userspace programs or the window-switching special effects that I disable anyway. Heck, if they are available for linux, I could just run them in a Linux VM or lx-branded zone, especially if my desktop could support the accelerated graphics. Currently the radeon is seen as a generic VESA VGA card and I can see it redraw the screen line-by-line when major video updates occur. This is what sucks and can push the newcomers (or even old diehards) away ;) PS: As a linux environment I've recently tried Fedora17... well, it took a while to just find the terminal program and others I needed in the new and shiny menu system, about half a dozen clicks away from the moment of login. The fancy stuff should not be a goal per se, and it shouldn't prohibit people from working (and needlessly burn extra electricity in the process). A DE should be comfortable, quick and feature-compliant where needed (i.e. 3D and other hardware-accelerated effects if required by those users of visualization graphics). I think the common X server provides these low-level features, and a choice of lightweight or heavy-fancy window managers and ultimate DEs (twm, cde, xfce, gnome, kde, ...) should be up to the users based on their personal needs or lack thereof. My 2c, //Jim ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
Hi, On út, 2012-10-30 at 13:27 -0400, låzaro wrote: Hi all, as many people don't wanna see, gnome future is like a submarine without roof. So, my question. What about make the new gnome's fork as default desktop enviroment, just like is making linux mint. OI always have the step in the next time. That project look like very good with a lot of good toys... at first - why to make new fork if there is one already - MATE ? at second - currently I am the only one paying attention to (read as working on) JDS consolidation with Gnome for OI, I did not see many volunteers. at third - the last Gnome 2 with some additional patches from MATE is good enough for now, my plan is to stay on this way for some time if possible. at forth - I hope somebody will go and work on Xfce port, which is currently unmaintained in SFE because I have no spare time for that. There are few known issues and some updates are needed. And I think Xfce would be good enough replacement in some time at fifth - Oracle team did some work on Gnome 3 on top of Solaris, they have to publish it if they will distribute it. I am not saying I will help with Gnome 3 on top of OI but somebody else could do that. Please, do not fork anything, work on needed bits and share. Either in Illumos or Userland or JDS or SFE or documentation etc. Best regards, Milan ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On 11/ 3/12 08:55 AM, Milan Jurik wrote: at fifth - Oracle team did some work on Gnome 3 on top of Solaris, they have to publish it if they will distribute it. I am not saying I will help with Gnome 3 on top of OI but somebody else could do that. A bunch of that was already published in the trunk branch of spec-files. (The JDS model was always that development/testing happened in trunk, and then every 6 months or so, usually following the GNOME upstream stable release, they'd pull stuff from trunk into a stable branch for integration to the WOS - since GNOME 3 wasn't ready to go into the WOS for Solaris 11 or 11.1, trunk has been diverging more than normal from the stable branches.) -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Engineering - http://blogs.oracle.com/alanc ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
Hi, On so, 2012-11-03 at 09:07 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 11/ 3/12 08:55 AM, Milan Jurik wrote: at fifth - Oracle team did some work on Gnome 3 on top of Solaris, they have to publish it if they will distribute it. I am not saying I will help with Gnome 3 on top of OI but somebody else could do that. A bunch of that was already published in the trunk branch of spec-files. (The JDS model was always that development/testing happened in trunk, and then every 6 months or so, usually following the GNOME upstream stable release, they'd pull stuff from trunk into a stable branch for integration to the WOS - since GNOME 3 wasn't ready to go into the WOS for Solaris 11 or 11.1, trunk has been diverging more than normal from the stable branches.) I know but JDS stopped to update public SVN repo during spring and they did not resolve the situation yet. Best regards, Milan ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
well, I did begin this thread but yesterday was a close day for me, just now see the lot of good posted mails. Remember, my english is so catastrofic has Sandy. My 2 cents: I did try to pull out mate about a posible solution for DE. Should be good have a first steep with this new things. The idea of make OI a server only OS make it more boring. For example, at the testing time, some newbs just install the system and use it. A console, a browser and a terminal is enough for testing. Soon, the thing of the DEs must be on tracks again. I'd Suggest Mate, because their are under developing and we could join effort because OI are under developing to. But look like with a good future. For the the WMaker's people I could suggest awesome, it is just awesome like the name but many people just prefer the Old Fashioned full desktop. Mate bring things very VERY recentlys, the kind of things that OI would like and I have not words for explain it in english, but really suggest look to Mate as an option. ...talking about DEs. No long time ago, I did ask in the #openindiana channel about CDE, the old sun desktop. It is a CRAP but I guest is like a a symbol in the olds and goods Sun os time. I would suggest it as and avalaible package, just by traditions and memories. CDE is now free, also could be use as light weight desktop solution. good days or night... Thread name: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future Mail number: 26 Date: Thu, Nov 01, 2012 In reply to: Dmitry Kozhinov Yet I remember OpenWindows... Quite distinctive. WindowMaker sounds good. Used it for a while a few years ago. Been thinking about looking at it again. :) Off-topic P.D. God bless New York, Cuban's churchs praying for yours, we know how is that situation. -- Warning! 100'000 pelos de escoba fueron introducidos satisfactoriamente en su puerto USB. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
Maybe I'm the oddball in the bunch. But I've been running OpenIndiana as my desktop OS on my laptop at work since OI-147 was released two years ago. Why? I don't care about shiny new UI gloss, but I have to have a stable system. What do I mean by that? One that can run stably without rebooting until I decide to install a newer version or switch systems and one that I'm not always having to wade through new non-security related updates just to keep the system secure. This is why I have run Slackware off-and-on for a couple decades. What brought me to OI from Slackware was ZFS. I could completely rave about ZFS, but one thing makes the point. I have to run a corporate Windows VM. Even pared down it craps itself every now and then. Previously this required a lot of pain and getting an approved reload from IT. Now all it requires is 'zfs rollback tank/vms/win-7@however-many-days-ago' and restart the VM. That's Winning! In the meantime I have discovered zones, crossbow and a few other things I absolutely love. I haven't gotten into dtrace yet, but see a lot of potential benefit there as well. All of this said, I'm about to switch to Slackware running ZFS on another machine. Why? I need the newer faster hardware with more cores for my job. There is a lack of support for the wireless and wired NIC's in the newer Dell laptop. I also seem to recall that the install disk would not fully boot on the system. This was the same reason that had me switching on and off of Slackware years ago, lack of hardware support. I know the core Illumos teams doesn't give a damn about DE or laptop support (half of them only run OI in VM's on their MacBook Pros) but I do. Had I the time and Solaris knowledge I would work to get the hardware support into Illumos, I've written a number of Linux network drivers over the years and would like to think I could figure out the superior Solaris internals. I am very sad about this. There is no reason OI could not make a good working desktop. It's been fine for my needs for two years now. I suspect given another 5 years or so we may see such. I just wish it was today. I don't need GNOME 3, KDE 4, Unity or Ubuntu. I do need modern laptop hardware to be supported. By the way I would like to congratulate Nvidia for providing good up-to-date drivers that work on OpenIndiana. The 30x series has been wonderful. Docking and undocking works flawlessly. Heck sometimes suspend works. (Not always the two together though). And yes, I too spend most of my day ssh'd to emacs'd into remote boxes, VMs, zones, chroots, etc. But I still need a DE for sanity's sake. Love my OI desktop, Ron Parker ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On 11/ 1/12 03:56 PM, Ron Parker wrote: Maybe I'm the oddball in the bunch. But I've been running OpenIndiana as my desktop OS on my laptop at work since OI-147 was released two years ago. ... There is no reason OI could not make a good working desktop. It's been fine for my needs for two years now. I suspect given another 5 years or so we may see such. I just wish it was today. I don't need GNOME 3, KDE 4, Unity or Ubuntu. I do need modern laptop hardware to be supported. You are not alone. We run all our workstations on OI-151a7, as well as all our file servers, and all our compute blades, in total 140 hosts of a couple of brands and different architectures, with Infiniband, CIFS, VLans (even on the workstations), and all that was spawned from carefully prepared single image based on OI! We are doing really serious science on these boxes (we are burning 15 Mio CPU hours per year constantly under 100% CPU load on the blades, handling about 400 TB data on the fileservers, and a similar amount offsite on PB-scale storage units, and absolutely need the desktop for expensive visualization and daily work, and have also written programs that need gtk2/Gnome. Not to speak of all the visualization packages in perl and python, wxWidgets, IDL, WebGL, that are not possible without a decent desktop, native 3D capable system. Gnome 2 is perfect (apart from a few annoying bugs), Gnome3/Unity would be a drawback indeed, and nobody here wants to go back to such basic stuff as xfce and other incapable desktop systems (KDE may would be an option). As long as gtk3 is not needed by any programs in use, there's no need to really do work in the gnome packages, apart from some fixes. Schillix OS shows that this can be handled even with just two people, so I don't see that this sucks up significant manpower. The current Gnome on OI works, there's absolutely no reason to delete that from OI. If anybody only needs a server, deactivate the desktop, maybe delete the gnome packages from your server, or install one of the other great server-only illumos-based distributions, but please don't obstruct the usability for other users by cutting of functionality just based on opinions. It's a strength and an unique feature of OI to be complete solution. We switched to OI because nobody else in the world (apart from Oracle) offers a real successor to OpenSolaris in it's full completeness. Nobody wants Linux, the apparent gain in sheer package volume comes with the drawback that you nearly always have to download and recompile this or that software yourself just because it's not compiled with all options needed, and often a whole chain needs to be deinstalled and recompiled, and so it makes no difference for us not to have a package offered or to have it offered in an unusable configuration. And Linux is clearly inferior in a couple of aspects that matter to us, apart from the fact that nobody here really has the time to administer two different flavours of Unix (with all the interoperability problems, e.g., in NFS), when one already does the job very well. Please accept that there are people that are doing much more with OI than just running a home NAS server with music and videos. We still feel that we are a legitimate part of the OI/illumos community, and not just a legacy (yes, I know, the desktop is dead, blablabla...). (And I just hate these unnecessary discussions!) -- Dr.Udo GrabowskiInst.f.Meteorology a.Climate Research IMK-ASF-SAT www-imk.fzk.de/asf/sat/grabowski/ www.imk-asf.kit.edu/english/sat.php KIT - Karlsruhe Institute of Technologyhttp://www.kit.edu Postfach 3640,76021 Karlsruhe,Germany T:(+49)721 608-26026 F:-926026 ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
+1. There are alot of very useful desktop operating systems already, so i see no point in OI trying to compete with them. In business This way of thinking is responsible for what happened to Solaris. No OI should be a server and a desktop system. Otherwise, OI will die pretty soon. A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On Nov 1, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Udo Grabowski (IMK) wrote: Gnome 2 is perfect (apart from a few annoying bugs), Gnome3/Unity would be a drawback indeed, and nobody here wants to go back to such basic stuff as xfce and other incapable desktop systems (KDE may would be an option). As long as gtk3 is not needed by any programs in use, there's no need to really do work in the gnome packages, apart from some fixes. Schillix OS shows that this can be handled even with just two people, so I don't see that this sucks up significant manpower. This is a very informative contribution. Thank you for taking the time. I do want to ask, though: what is missing from Xfce that classifies it in your eyes as an incapable desktop? That's a pretty loaded statement and I think it deserves some explanation. My direct interest in your answer is actually because I'm cobbling together a package building system mostly for my OmniOS zones, but I expect to be running OI on my next laptop so I have a vested interest in having a stable and up to date desktop environment stack. It's been a couple of years since I ran anything but OS X on the desktop so while my recollection of Xfce is that it's a stable and complete DE, I'm ready to be corrected if there's an objective reason to not focus on bringing it to OI. The current Gnome on OI works, there's absolutely no reason to delete that from OI. Now that is something I can take issue with. While it may be perfectly usable, it's rather archaic. The DE is the first impression that many have of OI, and this is rather like going to Wal*mart (in the USA) and being greeted by an octogenarian in a blue smock. The senior citizen may do a fine job, but where's the appeal for newcomers? So you can put Lance Henrikson up front, or Miranda Kerr. I know which one I'd rather have greeting me. :) Nobody wants Linux I'll avoid the complete fallacy of that statement and merely point out that nobody is talking about Linux; we're talking about DE's. Please accept that there are people that are doing much more with OI than just running a home NAS server with music and videos. We still feel that we are a legitimate part of the OI/illumos community, and not just a legacy (yes, I know, the desktop is dead, blablabla…). Want to adopt the Gnome 2 collection? :) I'm building out some infrastructure for package building and will likely be putting together an Xfce collection. I think it would be really grand if more OI users figured out how to do this and started putting together (and maintaining!) collections for things like their favorite DE. -Magnus ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
I do not feel similarly :) if it didn't feature a GUI we wouldn't notice or care. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
Yet I remember OpenWindows... Quite distinctive. WindowMaker sounds good. Used it for a while a few years ago. Been thinking about looking at it again. :) ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Adams t12nsloo...@gmail.com wrote: from what I remember of the conversations of the time, we cannot move to Gnome 3 because of certain Linux dependencies ... Gnome 2 is no longer changing, and no longer being patched ... The problem with Gnome 3 is AFAIK mostly a problem of Illumos libc since Gnome 3 intends to move to use the ..._l() apis (e.g. strcasecmp_l(), isalnum_l(), ...) which are not present in Illumos libc. FreeBSD was confronted with the same problem (that major toolkits, including Gnome3 and Qt) and desktops are going to mandate the *_l() apis) and just did the work - see http://freebsdfoundation.blogspot.de/2011/09/following-project-update-was-written-by.html Irek ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On 11/ 1/12 02:20 PM, Irek Szczesniak wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Adams t12nsloo...@gmail.com wrote: from what I remember of the conversations of the time, we cannot move to Gnome 3 because of certain Linux dependencies ... Gnome 2 is no longer changing, and no longer being patched ... The problem with Gnome 3 is AFAIK mostly a problem of Illumos libc That's just one of the problems. You'll also need better graphics driver support, unless you don't mind telling people to just stick to the Nvidia closed driver and ensure the illumos kernel remains 100% binary compatible with the private interfaces the nvidia driver uses from the Solaris kernel. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Engineering - http://blogs.oracle.com/alanc ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
from what I remember of the conversations of the time, we cannot move to Gnome 3 because of certain Linux dependencies ... Gnome 2 is no longer changing, and no longer being patched ... We don't have time or resources to support a Gnome 2 desktop system development fork (at least I don't and I don't believe OI devs do either) and in fact most Illumos OS's don't include a graphical environment at all. Linux Mint (I believe) are actually looking to go to Gnome 3, but with a customised theme, they cannot afford to ignore GTK3, and sticking with GTK2 means that new projects will not work for them. Linux Mint's Gnome theme does not look like Gnome 2 ... Of course some (or even all) of my ramblings could be wrong. Jon On 30 October 2012 17:27, låzaro netad...@lex-sa.cu wrote: Hi all, as many people don't wanna see, gnome future is like a submarine without roof. So, my question. What about make the new gnome's fork as default desktop enviroment, just like is making linux mint. OI always have the step in the next time. That project look like very good with a lot of good toys... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 5:27 PM, låzaro netad...@lex-sa.cu wrote: Hi all, as many people don't wanna see, gnome future is like a submarine without roof. So, my question. What about make the new gnome's fork as default desktop enviroment, just like is making linux mint. OI always have the step in the next time. That project look like very good with a lot of good toys... Creating a private fork of a major desktop environment seems like a huge amount of effort. Why not pick a different desktop? Personally, I like Xfce, it's actively maintained and does a pretty good job of being cross-platform, apart from being a decent environment in its own right. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:27:59 -0400, låzaro netad...@lex-sa.cu wrote: Hi all, as many people don't wanna see, gnome future is like a submarine without roof. So, my question. What about make the new gnome's fork as default desktop enviroment, just like is making linux mint. OI always have the step in the next time. That project look like very good with a lot of good toys... I suspect a lot of this decision is going to fall on whoever actually is willing to do the work to get it working and maintain it. I'm not there yet. That said, if there is going to be an overhaul of the DE, might I suggest Xfce for consideration? ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:35:02 + From: t12nsloo...@gmail.com To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future from what I remember of the conversations of the time, we cannot move to Gnome 3 because of certain Linux dependencies ... Gnome 2 is no longer changing, and no longer being patched ... We don't have time or resources to support a Gnome 2 desktop system development fork (at least I don't and I don't believe OI devs do either) and in fact most Illumos OS's don't include a graphical environment at all. Linux Mint (I believe) are actually looking to go to Gnome 3, but with a customised theme, they cannot afford to ignore GTK3, and sticking with GTK2 means that new projects will not work for them. Linux Mint's Gnome theme does not look like Gnome 2 ... Of course some (or even all) of my ramblings could be wrong. Jon Mate is a fork of Gnome 2 that already has a community behind it. Mint features Mate as a key desktop choice. http://mate-desktop.org/ Perhaps that is what is being sought? Nathan ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
Mate is a fork of Gnome 2 that already has a community behind it. Mint features Mate as a key desktop choice. http://mate-desktop.org/ except that Mate looks nothing like Gnome 2 ... so if the idea is to keep the look and feel of the current environment then Mate is not the way to go. We'd be better off going for XFCE, or another desktop Environment, not that I'm a fan of XFCE personally. Jon ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
I am of a commercial view. I am interested in the most popular desktop and most developed environment which is accepted by the current or potential user base.It would not be the correct choice going with a project which either peters out or is not accepted by commercial users as this would waste development time and resource too? As an Enterprise system the commercial view should prevail? On 30/10/2012 17:27, låzaro wrote: Hi all, as many people don't wanna see, gnome future is like a submarine without roof. So, my question. What about make the new gnome's fork as default desktop enviroment, just like is making linux mint. OI always have the step in the next time. That project look like very good with a lot of good toys... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- This transmission is intended to be private and confidential. Intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender at the e-mail address above. Thank you. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:25:13 +, openbabel openba...@gmail.com wrote: As an Enterprise system the commercial view should prevail? This is based on the false premise that OpenIndiana is an enterprise desktop operating system. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:25 AM, openbabel openba...@gmail.com wrote: I am of a commercial view. I am interested in the most popular desktop and most developed environment which is accepted by the current or potential user base.It would not be the correct choice going with a project which either peters out or is not accepted by commercial users as this would waste development time and resource too? As an Enterprise system the commercial view should prevail? My suggestion, as someone who spent an inordinate amount of time porting KDE 4.x to Solaris 10, go with something simple and easy. Once there's a working DE, folks can then choose to work/port other more complex DE's. Ben On 30/10/2012 17:27, låzaro wrote: Hi all, as many people don't wanna see, gnome future is like a submarine without roof. So, my question. What about make the new gnome's fork as default desktop enviroment, just like is making linux mint. OI always have the step in the next time. That project look like very good with a lot of good toys... ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On 1 November 2012 02:33, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: This is based on the false premise that OpenIndiana is an enterprise desktop operating system. +1. There are alot of very useful desktop operating systems already, so i see no point in OI trying to compete with them. In business speak OI has a sustainable competitive advantage with ZFS, zones, dtrace, etc etc and those alone are why most people will be attracted to OI. Our OI servers sit in various computer rooms and we talk to them exclusively over ssh, if it didn't feature a GUI we wouldn't notice or care. I wonder how many other OI users feel similarly? -- Kind regards, Jules golgy whats so wrong with plumb? hoolio nothing, in itself. it's just for me, knowing what it means infers i cannot any longer pretend to not be a complete square when it comes to computers Gryphon I don't know that knowing anything about plumb turns you into a nerd, but this conversation already has hoolio are you calling me nerdy? checkers hoolio: you know what initramfs means, AND does. You're lost to the non-geek world already Gryphon yes hoolio hrm hoolio goodbye cruel world. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
So why OI has DE at all? Leading to your logic community has to cut off DE from distribution at all... And what we will have? Another one illumos based server distribution?! I see OI as OS for general purposes, so stopping development in DE will decrease value of OI. Yes, community is to small but we have to find compromise and community will grow up. P.S. I'm not an active OI developer, but I help with testing and I'm going to contribute as developer at future. - Maxim Julius Roberts wrote: On 1 November 2012 02:33, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: This is based on the false premise that OpenIndiana is an enterprise desktop operating system. +1. There are alot of very useful desktop operating systems already, so i see no point in OI trying to compete with them. In business speak OI has a sustainable competitive advantage with ZFS, zones, dtrace, etc etc and those alone are why most people will be attracted to OI. Our OI servers sit in various computer rooms and we talk to them exclusively over ssh, if it didn't feature a GUI we wouldn't notice or care. I wonder how many other OI users feel similarly? ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
I never suggested stopping DE development. I merely suggested that thinking of OI as an enterprise desktop OS is trying to sell an idea that enterprises aren't going to buy. I'm actually going to switch from Mac to OI laptop after the holidays (getting crazier with age). Sent from my typewriter On Oct 31, 2012, at 6:48 PM, Maxim Kondratovich maxim@gmail.com wrote: So why OI has DE at all? Leading to your logic community has to cut off DE from distribution at all... And what we will have? Another one illumos based server distribution?! I see OI as OS for general purposes, so stopping development in DE will decrease value of OI. Yes, community is to small but we have to find compromise and community will grow up. P.S. I'm not an active OI developer, but I help with testing and I'm going to contribute as developer at future. - Maxim Julius Roberts wrote: On 1 November 2012 02:33, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: This is based on the false premise that OpenIndiana is an enterprise desktop operating system. +1. There are alot of very useful desktop operating systems already, so i see no point in OI trying to compete with them. In business speak OI has a sustainable competitive advantage with ZFS, zones, dtrace, etc etc and those alone are why most people will be attracted to OI. Our OI servers sit in various computer rooms and we talk to them exclusively over ssh, if it didn't feature a GUI we wouldn't notice or care. I wonder how many other OI users feel similarly? ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
A GUI is only needed when you want to use the gui I see more benefit in better webmin-support for zfs, mysql and other serversoftware. Kind regards, The out-side Op 31 okt. 2012 om 23:30 heeft Julius Roberts hooliowobb...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: On 1 November 2012 02:33, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: This is based on the false premise that OpenIndiana is an enterprise desktop operating system. +1. There are alot of very useful desktop operating systems already, so i see no point in OI trying to compete with them. In business speak OI has a sustainable competitive advantage with ZFS, zones, dtrace, etc etc and those alone are why most people will be attracted to OI. Our OI servers sit in various computer rooms and we talk to them exclusively over ssh, if it didn't feature a GUI we wouldn't notice or care. I wonder how many other OI users feel similarly? -- Kind regards, Jules golgy whats so wrong with plumb? hoolio nothing, in itself. it's just for me, knowing what it means infers i cannot any longer pretend to not be a complete square when it comes to computers Gryphon I don't know that knowing anything about plumb turns you into a nerd, but this conversation already has hoolio are you calling me nerdy? checkers hoolio: you know what initramfs means, AND does. You're lost to the non-geek world already Gryphon yes hoolio hrm hoolio goodbye cruel world. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On 1 November 2012 09:48, Maxim Kondratovich maxim@gmail.com wrote: So why OI has DE at all? Leading to your logic community has to cut off DE from distribution at all... And what we will have? Another one illumos based server distribution?! The community will do whatever the community wants :) I'm just saying i don't use OI for the GUI and i wonder how many people actually do. I see OI as OS for general purposes, so stopping development in DE will decrease value of OI. Yes, community is to small but we have to find compromise and community will grow up. I don't see OI as a general purpose OS, perhaps that's where our perspectives differ. -- Kind regards, Jules golgy whats so wrong with plumb? hoolio nothing, in itself. it's just for me, knowing what it means infers i cannot any longer pretend to not be a complete square when it comes to computers Gryphon I don't know that knowing anything about plumb turns you into a nerd, but this conversation already has hoolio are you calling me nerdy? checkers hoolio: you know what initramfs means, AND does. You're lost to the non-geek world already Gryphon yes hoolio hrm hoolio goodbye cruel world. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:25:13 +, openbabel openba...@gmail.com wrote: As an Enterprise system the commercial view should prevail? This is based on the false premise that OpenIndiana is an enterprise desktop operating system. I would take more issue with the term commercial. OpenIndiana is based on an enterprise operating system, however, use as a desktop (for use with packaged software) is not commercially viable. The term commercially viable means that someone is willing to pay for the system with the intent of using it as a desktop. This does not mean that OpenIndiana can not offer a perfectly viable and useful desktop which is almost as performant and feature rich as popular desktops. OpenIndiana needs to offer a default desktop which is reliable and lightweight since it may be attached to a server or need to be used remotely. It should not require exotic GPU acceleration to be usable. By current standards Gnome2 is light-weight even though it used to be considered heavy-weight. KDE4 is pretty heavy. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
webmin? Ick. Swapping a desktop gui for a web gui...still get a gui. So just offshore the gui problem eh? On Thursday, November 01, 2012 06:55 AM, Roel_D wrote: A GUI is only needed when you want to use the gui I see more benefit in better webmin-support for zfs, mysql and other serversoftware. Kind regards, The out-side ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
On Thursday, November 01, 2012 03:01 AM, Ben Taylor wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:25 AM, openbabelopenba...@gmail.com wrote: I am of a commercial view. I am interested in the most popular desktop and most developed environment which is accepted by the current or potential user base.It would not be the correct choice going with a project which either peters out or is not accepted by commercial users as this would waste development time and resource too? As an Enterprise system the commercial view should prevail? My suggestion, as someone who spent an inordinate amount of time porting KDE 4.x to Solaris 10, go with something simple and easy. Once there's a working DE, folks can then choose to work/port other more complex DE's. What has the least dependencies? XFCE? KDE 3.5? Or forget DE and just get a window manager like WindowMaker? ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
WindowMaker sounds good. Used it for a while a few years ago. Been thinking about looking at it again. :) -- Sent from my Jelly Bean Galaxy Nexus Christopher Chan christopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk wrote: On Thursday, November 01, 2012 03:01 AM, Ben Taylor wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:25 AM, openbabelopenba...@gmail.com wrote: I am of a commercial view. I am interested in the most popular desktop and most developed environment which is accepted by the current or potential user base.It would not be the correct choice going with a project which either peters out or is not accepted by commercial users as this would waste development time and resource too? As an Enterprise system the commercial view should prevail? My suggestion, as someone who spent an inordinate amount of time porting KDE 4.x to Solaris 10, go with something simple and easy. Once there's a working DE, folks can then choose to work/port other more complex DE's. What has the least dependencies? XFCE? KDE 3.5? Or forget DE and just get a window manager like WindowMaker? ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Gnome and the future
I used WindowMaker for a couple years myself. It is an easy compile on *Solaris and works well. At least it compiled easy for me. I ultimately went back to OpenWindows. I own a large stock of Solaris 8 media, so I will never be without my OpenWindows packages. Jerry Kemp On 10/31/12 08:18 PM, Gregory S. Youngblood wrote: WindowMaker sounds good. Used it for a while a few years ago. Been thinking about looking at it again. :) -- Sent from my Jelly Bean Galaxy Nexus ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
