Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-08 Thread dalibor topic
On 07.02.2018 08:24, Johan Vos wrote: I'm still all in favour of Open Source, but it should be sustainable. Meta: I'd recommend reading the "Why Modern Open Source Projects Fail" paper from last year at https://arxiv.org/pdf/1707.02327.pdf for a thorough, and very useful analysis (rather than

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-07 Thread John-Val Rose
Yes, I agree - sorry. I got a bit confused as to which thread I was “in” (while reading messages from each of them simultaneously) and there’s definitely a degree of overlap between the two of them topic-wise. Anyway, I vented - just not in the right place. I still hope for some feedback on

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-07 Thread Kevin Rushforth
This has now veered off topic for this thread. It would be a fine topic for the "future content of OpenJFX" thread. -- Kevin John-Val Rose wrote: Well, not only do I think that a docking framework is *that* complex, I see it as an essential part of any serious graphics toolkit. In

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-07 Thread Hervé Girod
I have coded such a framework in one of my open source projects. I can extract this code and setup a github project for it if people are interested. Hervé Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 7, 2018, at 10:52, John-Val Rose wrote: > > > > Well, not only do I think that a

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-07 Thread John-Val Rose
Well, not only do I think that a docking framework is *that* complex, I see it as an essential part of any serious graphics toolkit. In general, I don’t understand all the limitations that people keep imposing on JavaFX as if we have to “settle” for what is basically a 2nd class citizen

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-07 Thread Tom Eugelink
Well, I believe he was hinting at that a docking framework is considered more complex, there was no negative sentiment in that. Although I do not think a docking framework is that complex, but maybe I'm wrong. And yes, ALMOST everyone is at ControlFX ;-) > Jonathan - why do you *cough* at

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-07 Thread Laurent Bourgès
Hi folks, Please respect the 2 threads with different scopes: - this one on how to simplify external contributions (infrastructure, review policies...) - the other one on javafx features... Please stay in the scope & being constructive... I personally improved the prism shape rasterizer

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-06 Thread John-Val Rose
Jonathan - why do you *cough* at ideas like more complex controls and docking frameworks? I think that a docking framework especially would be a great addition to JavaFX. Am I missing something? > On 7 Feb 2018, at 18:16, Jonathan Giles wrote: > > Obviously

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-06 Thread Jonathan Giles
Obviously everyone is at ControlsFX instead ;-) Part of the drop I would suggest is simply that many of the itches people want to scratch are now scratched. Alternatively, the remaining itches are either in more complex controls (*cough* docking frameworks *cough*) or in areas beneath the

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-06 Thread Tom Eugelink
Many years ago I had a discussion with Jonathan Giles about if the things that were being made in JFXtras would eventually become part of the JavaFX core. In the end I decided that, for me personally, I could do the things I wanted to perfectly in a separate project. The rigid structure that

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-06 Thread Kevin Rushforth
I would recommend against having a separate issue tracker or mailing list associated with the sandbox. That will create more confusion than any benefit you might have. -- Kevin Nir Lisker wrote: Another thing to be careful about with the sandbox/staging idea is the confusion that will arise

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-06 Thread Sverre Moe
>> 2018-02-06 14:29 GMT+01:00 dalibor topic : >>> >>> >>> >>> On 02.02.2018 00:26, Kevin Rushforth wrote: We are specifically looking to discuss ideas around the following areas: * Easing barriers to contribution (e.g., making JavaFX easier to

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-06 Thread Nir Lisker
Another thing to be careful about with the sandbox/staging idea is the confusion that will arise with duplication. There will be 2 issue trackers (JBS and GitHub (or GitHub-like)), 2 repo addresses, 2 wikis, and maybe 2 discussion lists. For those "in the know" this will be a simple matter, but

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-06 Thread dalibor topic
On 02.02.2018 00:26, Kevin Rushforth wrote: We are specifically looking to discuss ideas around the following areas: * Easing barriers to contribution (e.g., making JavaFX easier to build, better documentation, making it easier to test changes) I'd suggest explicitly asking for feedback

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-06 Thread Tom Schindl
Hi, Well Eclipse.org repositories at Github have support to track if you signed a CLA with the Eclipse Foundation and I'm unable to merge PRs if that check fails. Tom On 06.02.18 13:48, dalibor topic wrote: > > > On 05.02.2018 15:41, Kevin Rushforth wrote: >> Yes, this sounds like a good step

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-06 Thread dalibor topic
On 05.02.2018 15:41, Kevin Rushforth wrote: Yes, this sounds like a good step in the right direction. This would give anyone (with a signed OCA) the ability to create their own branch, commit changes to it, submit a PR, etc. One non-obvious point to keep in mind is that you do need to make

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-05 Thread Sverre Moe
> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 08:11:05 +0100 > From: Alexander Ny?en <alexan...@nyssen.org> > To: Kevin Rushforth <kevin.rushfo...@oracle.com> > Cc: "openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net" <openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net> > Subject: Re: More community participation in Ja

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-05 Thread John-Val Rose
Yes, me too. I think it’s logical to establish *how* to make contributions first (and it’s great to see a lot of progress with this so far) but then there clearly needs to be a discussion of exactly *what* those contributions are, who decides which ones are important or permitted and how are

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-05 Thread Paul Ray Russell
"I think a discussion on "where we should take the platform" is a good one to have...just not as part of this thread. " I'm looking forwards to the new thread :)

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-05 Thread Kevin Rushforth
I think a discussion on "where we should take the platform" is a good one to have...just not as part of this thread. -- Kevin Stephen Desofi wrote: Yes, probably me. Sent from iCloud On Feb 03, 2018, at 09:35 PM, John-Val Rose wrote: Well, then one of us is "off

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-05 Thread Kevin Rushforth
Yes, this sounds like a good step in the right direction. This would give anyone (with a signed OCA) the ability to create their own branch, commit changes to it, submit a PR, etc. I presume there will be a branch that is an exact mirror of the jfx-dev repo on OpenJDK in addition to the

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-05 Thread Johan Vos
Hi Michael, This proposal is very much in line with my thinking as well. The problem is not that we don't have a github clone of OpenJFX. We have a number of them (e.g. I created https://github.com/javafxports/jfx-dev some months ago). We just need a single one that is updated constantly from

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-04 Thread Alexander Nyßen
Hi Kevin, the issue tracker is usually the first contact point for any future contributor. Making it publicly accessible would IMHO be an important first step. Be aware that before being appointed as author, one is not even allowed to reply to questions related to those issues one has created

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-04 Thread Michael Ennen
Those are great questions, and I think with Kevin/Oracle/other OpenJFX devs help we can figure something out. My thinking is that the PR would be reviewed by basically anyone who has free time. I think that, at first, only OpenJFX committers will be able to merge PRs. They would do the final

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-04 Thread Nir Lisker
So if a community ran GitHub is used for staging, who will approve PRs for the code and the Wiki of the GitHub repo? On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 2:40 AM, Michael Ennen wrote: > Great points, Nir. We share the same hopes. I just wanted to piggy-back on > the > wiki thing: > > "

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-04 Thread Michael Ennen
Great points, Nir. We share the same hopes. I just wanted to piggy-back on the wiki thing: " * The Wiki could be open sourced as well (like other Wikis). I could definitely update a page or 2 there and so would other developers as they gain knowledge. I don't know yet how permissions for that

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-04 Thread Nir Lisker
Hello, As someone who has recently made the climb and managed to build OpenJFX with OpenJDK on Win 10 I might have some relevant input. --- Building OpenJFX --- * With the recently updated instructions on the Wiki, building OpenJFX is not that hard. Having to build OpenJDK for that was a real

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-04 Thread Stephen Desofi
I looked up progress in Kotlin and Kotlin/native and you are right, they are doing most of the things I had suggested for JavaFX. Thanks, Steve Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 4, 2018, at 12:06 AM, John-Val Rose wrote: > > Well, if your interest is mainly in the

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-03 Thread John-Val Rose
Well, if your interest is mainly in the future “cross platform king” of languages, you might just want to have a look at Kotlin and Kotlin/Native. Oh, and I have heard you can develop JavaFX apps with Kotlin too! > On 4 Feb 2018, at 13:37, Stephen Desofi wrote: > > Yes,

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-03 Thread Stephen Desofi
Yes,  probably me. Sent from iCloud On Feb 03, 2018, at 09:35 PM, John-Val Rose wrote: Well, then one of us is "off topic"... Kevin Rushforth: "We are specifically looking to discuss ideas around the following areas: * Easing barriers to contribution (e.g., making

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-03 Thread John-Val Rose
Well, then one of us is "off topic"... Kevin Rushforth: "We are specifically looking to discuss ideas around the following areas: * Easing barriers to contribution (e.g., making JavaFX easier to build, better documentation, making it easier to test changes) * Code review policies * API /

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-03 Thread Stephen Desofi
John,      I think you and I are thinking on two different levels.    You are talking about the mechanics of making contributing to JavaFX easier.    I am talking about making the motivations of contributing to JavaFX easier. Steve Sent from iCloud On Feb 03, 2018, at 09:14 PM, John-Val

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-03 Thread John-Val Rose
Stephen, 1. Swift and your "crystal ball" view of its spectacular success in the future has nothing whatsoever to do with making contributing to JavaFX easier. 2. Like everyone else who already wants to contribute to JavaFX, we don't need someone to provide us with "a compelling story as to why

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-03 Thread Stephen Desofi
John,      The point I am making is that Swift is catching up as a cross platform toolkit and is available on: Mac and iOS, (Full Support) https://www.swift.org Android (early) https://academy.realm.io/posts/swift-on-android/ Linux:  (early) https://itsfoss.com/use-swift-linux/ Windows:

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-03 Thread John-Val Rose
Stephen - I’m not quite following you. This thread is about improving the ease with which the community can contribute to JavaFX. I see no point in comparing JavaFX (a cross platform graphics toolkit for JVM languages) with a Swift (a general purpose programming language that runs on Apple

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-03 Thread Laurent Bourgès
Hi Chris, I'm more than happy to keep the community JavaFX build server at chriswhocodes.com running and host JDK 8/9/10/n + FX builds there. At the moment it's mostly used by the Raspberry Pi community to grab JavaFX overlays for JDK8 on ARM. I can also build and host OSX and Windows builds

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-03 Thread Stephen Desofi
This begs the question, why has the bar been set too low? I am new to this community and don’t know much history other than a couple weeks of bug fix messages flying by. I am not even clear of what our role and purpose is supposed to be. Are we here for only bug fixes, and follow the

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-02 Thread John-Val Rose
I think Kevin outlined in his opening post what would be considered "out of scope". However, I agree with you on the basic premise that, in general, the bar has been set way too low as to the potential use cases and performance of JavaFX. In fact, I firmly believe that games & complex

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-02 Thread Stephen Desofi
I don’t understand why discussing new graphics capabilities such as gaming or WebGPU, etc is so off limits. Can you explain that? Steve Desofi Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 2, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Kevin Rushforth > wrote: > > Looks like we have some good discussion

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-02 Thread Kevin Rushforth
Looks like we have some good discussion so far. I see a few themes emerging (build/test, sandbox on GitHub, ease of filing bugs, etc) along with some discussion on graphics performance (which is fine as long as the discussion doesn't veer too far into discussing specific graphics features).

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-02 Thread Stephen Desofi
enjfx-dev digest..." Today's Topics: 1. More community participation in JavaFX (Kevin Rushforth) 2. Re: More community participation in JavaFX (Michael Ennen) 3. Re: More community participation in JavaFX (Richard Steiger)

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-02 Thread Michael Paus
Hi, I fully agree with what you said with one exception. Via the bug report form it is possible to add any kind of attachments. So this is no problem. The rest is sadly true. Cheers Michael Am 02.02.18 um 18:29 schrieb John Neffenger: On 02/01/2018 03:26 PM, Kevin Rushforth wrote: We are

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-02 Thread John Neffenger
On 02/01/2018 03:26 PM, Kevin Rushforth wrote: We are specifically looking to discuss ideas around the following areas: * Easing barriers to contribution (e.g., making JavaFX easier to build, better documentation, making it easier to test changes) Thank you for asking. In my case, the

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-02 Thread Chris Newland
Hi Kevin, I'm more than happy to keep the community JavaFX build server at chriswhocodes.com running and host JDK 8/9/10/n + FX builds there. At the moment it's mostly used by the Raspberry Pi community to grab JavaFX overlays for JDK8 on ARM. I can also build and host OSX and Windows builds

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-02 Thread Paul Ray Russell
ect line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of openjfx-dev digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. More community participation in JavaFX (Kevin Rushforth) > 2. Re: More community participation in JavaFX (Michael E

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-02 Thread John-Val Rose
Kevin - thanks so much for this extremely well thought-out, informative and positive email. It’s the best post I’ve ever seen from Oracle on this list! It clearly highlights 2 things: 1. The future of JavaFX is heavily reliant on community involvement. 2. Oracle are actually listening to

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-01 Thread Richard Steiger
Hi Kevin, As a long-time observer of the OpenJFX project, let me put all my chips at this point on making builds more stable, bullet-proof, and automated, and give equal weight making them so on Win10 and OS/X, specifically, the same weight as is given to making building and developing on

Re: More community participation in JavaFX

2018-02-01 Thread Michael Ennen
I think that having a public sandbox mirror on GitHub, as you mentioned, is a great idea. The idea is that PRs could be opened and the test suites could be run using CI for the platforms supported by JavaFX. The PR itself would never be directly merged into the OpenJFX hg repository. Instead the