Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-25 Thread Viktor Dukhovni


> On Jan 25, 2018, at 5:11 AM, Richard Levitte  wrote:
> 
> This is confusing, and not what was intended.  In other words,
> openssl-project is *not* a new openssl-dev!  If it was, I don't see
> why we would even bother making a new list...

It is moderated, and won't have misplaced user questions.  Technical
topics related to the future evolution of OpenSSL should I think be
open for discussion on this list if they're not yet sufficiently
well formulated for tracking as a GitHub issue.  These might be design
ideas, clarification of requirements, ...  The point being that mailing
lists are good for *discussion* and Github is not particularly well
suited for that.

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-25 Thread Richard Levitte
In message  on Wed, 24 Jan 
2018 13:08:54 -0500, Viktor Dukhovni  said:

openssl-users> > If we agree that mailing lists are preferrable to
openssl-users> > GitHub threads, then we should not close down
openssl-users> > openssl-dev.
openssl-users> 
openssl-users> Well, but we now have "openssl-project" for discussions
openssl-users> of the ongoing development of OpenSSL.  It is mostly
openssl-users> for team members, but though it is moderated, IIRC
openssl-users> others can join and post.

This is confusing, and not what was intended.  In other words,
openssl-project is *not* a new openssl-dev!  If it was, I don't see
why we would even bother making a new list...

>From the blog entry:

> We created a new mailing list, openssl-project, that is for
> discussions about the governance and policies of OpenSSL. Anyone can
> join this list. Only members of the OMC and committers will be able
> to post.

Governance and policies (roughly speaking, 'cause there may be some
derailing that's shouldn't be there) is not, as far as I understand,
"development of OpenSSL".  It may be close, thought, such as planning
the schedule of the next release.

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-24 Thread Michael Richardson

Viktor Dukhovni  wrote:
>> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Michael Richardson  
wrote:
>>
>>> email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
>>> a day, Github UI isn't

> Indeed email is best for informal ad-hoc back and forth threaded
> discussion, while Github et. al. are for issue tracking.

> If there's a clear problem that requires tracking and resolution,
> then the right forum is Github.  If there's a topic to discuss,
> we have openssl-users.  Most openssl-dev threads were more
> appropriate for openssl-users.

I'm okay with taking more of the "what is the right answer" questions to
openssl-users if that's the plan.

I truly love github for many many things, but the email interface to issues
and pull requests has been a problem for me with projects like tcpdump.
I personally don't render HTML parts, and read 90% of my email via
emacsclient -nw.

Users reasonably post things. 60% are silly requests which a google search or
a "man foo" would resolve but it generates emails to the busiest people
only (the maintainers), skipping the other users on the list who *also* could
answer if they knew there was a well formed question.

Is there a stackexchange/serverfault?

I took to CC: tcpdump-workers when I answered github issues by email,
particularly when there was a question of project goals or policy involved.
I realized that there is a bit of a XSS/spam attack facilitated by doing that
as the magic reply-to address to get stuff posted to the github issue is now
happily archived in the ML!

Does github issue process the emails with useful quoting in them usefully? 
Sorta.
So, I'm skeptical, but I am willing to go with the plan.

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-24 Thread Viktor Dukhovni


> On Jan 24, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Dr. Matthias St. Pierre 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ok, I didn't know that. If anyone seriously participating on GitHub can
> join the moderated openssl-project list then this sounds like a good
> replacement for openssl-dev, because that list will be more focused
> and not bothered with so many misplaced posts that should have
> gone to openssl-users.

Interested participants can sign up at:

  https://mta.openssl.org/mailman/listinfo/openssl-project

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-24 Thread Dr. Matthias St. Pierre

On 24.01.2018 19:08, Viktor Dukhovni wrote:
>
> Well, but we now have "openssl-project" for discussions of the
> ongoing development of OpenSSL.  It is mostly for team members,
> but though it is moderated, IIRC others can join and post.
Ok, I didn't know that. If anyone seriously participating on GitHub can
join the moderated openssl-project list then this sounds like a good
replacement for openssl-dev, because that list will be more focused
and not bothered with so many misplaced posts that should have
gone to openssl-users.

Matthias

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-24 Thread Viktor Dukhovni


> On Jan 24, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Dr. Matthias St. Pierre 
>  wrote:
> 
> As for the two mailing lists openssl-users and openssl-dev: It was always
> my understanding that the former was for usability questions starting
> from newbie questions up to very sophisticated subjects, whereas
> openssl-dev was for discussion around the development process itself.

Where "development process" means development of OpenSSL itself, not
software dependent on OpenSSL.  Since openssl is primarily a developer
toolkit, not end-user software, the openssl-users list is really for
developers, just not developers of OpenSSL itself.

> If we agree that mailing lists are preferrable to GitHub threads, then we
> should not close down openssl-dev.

Well, but we now have "openssl-project" for discussions of the
ongoing development of OpenSSL.  It is mostly for team members,
but though it is moderated, IIRC others can join and post.

> Because openssl-project is readonly for most developers

s/developers/users/

> and I don't think it would be a good idea to join openssl-dev
> and openssl-users.

Well, I've been on both for a long time, and mostly find that
I wish the openssl-dev posts were on openssl-users instead,
they really mostly aren't about ongoing OpenSSL development.

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-24 Thread Steffen Nurpmeso
Viktor Dukhovni  wrote:
 |> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Michael Richardson  wrote:
 |>> email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
 |>> a day, Github UI isn't
 |
 |Indeed email is best for informal ad-hoc back and forth threaded
 |discussion, while Github et. al. are for issue tracking.
 |
 |If there's a clear problem that requires tracking and resolution,
 |then the right forum is Github.  If there's a topic to discuss,
 |we have openssl-users.  Most openssl-dev threads were more
 |appropriate for openssl-users.

I see an overwhelming amount of posts on the new list which where
somehow missed on -dev, though.

As a general note that you might not know, from Germany at least
and over my internet account and being not a logged in user i find
that github very often fails to generate commit data or cuts
directory listings.  At least there are no advertisings which
consume multiple CPUs for who-knows-what.

 |So I'm not convinced we need two free-form discussion lists, but
 |concur that if it is discussion one wants, then email clearly
 |superior to Github issue tracking.  The key question is whether
 |openssl-users suffices to meet that need.

Oh, -dev was a terribly noisy list.  So: ch-ch-ch-ch-changes
(turn and face the strange).

Congratulations for the price you have won.  Especially so in
respect to, brave new world!, having to go over browser based
issue tracker interfaces.  I could not do that.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-24 Thread Dr. Matthias St. Pierre


On 24.01.2018 18:32, Viktor Dukhovni wrote:
>
>> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Michael Richardson  wrote:
>>
>>> email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
>>> a day, Github UI isn't
> Indeed email is best for informal ad-hoc back and forth threaded
> discussion, while Github et. al. are for issue tracking.
>
> If there's a clear problem that requires tracking and resolution,
> then the right forum is Github.  If there's a topic to discuss,
> we have openssl-users.  Most openssl-dev threads were more
> appropriate for openssl-users.
>
> So I'm not convinced we need two free-form discussion lists, but
> concur that if it is discussion one wants, then email clearly
> superior to Github issue tracking.  The key question is whether
> openssl-users suffices to meet that need.
>

Although GitHub issues provide nice features like markdown and
syntax highlighting, I agree with Viktor that in general mailing lists are
much more suitable for general discussion. If nothing else, then because
they are open for everyone to read and search (via the mail archives)
and don't require a login.

So IMHO GitHub issues should remain for topics like bug reports and
specific discussions related to current pull requests.

As for the two mailing lists openssl-users and openssl-dev: It was always
my understanding that the former was for usability questions starting
from newbie questions up to very sophisticated subjects, whereas
openssl-dev was for discussion around the development process itself.
If we agree that mailing lists are preferrable to GitHub threads, then we
should not close down openssl-dev. Because openssl-project is readonly
for most developers and I don't think it would be a good idea
to join openssl-dev and openssl-users.

Matthias

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-24 Thread Viktor Dukhovni


> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Michael Richardson  wrote:
> 
>> email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
>> a day, Github UI isn't

Indeed email is best for informal ad-hoc back and forth threaded
discussion, while Github et. al. are for issue tracking.

If there's a clear problem that requires tracking and resolution,
then the right forum is Github.  If there's a topic to discuss,
we have openssl-users.  Most openssl-dev threads were more
appropriate for openssl-users.

So I'm not convinced we need two free-form discussion lists, but
concur that if it is discussion one wants, then email clearly
superior to Github issue tracking.  The key question is whether
openssl-users suffices to meet that need.

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-24 Thread Michael Richardson

Hubert Kario  wrote:
> that marking a conversation as ignored and going to next one is two key
> combinations and less than a second, github ones require me to go to
> the web UI which is slow, and if I have to view the issue because
> subject is ambiguous it takes ten times as long as it does when using
> email

+1

> email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages
> a day, Github UI isn't



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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Florian Weimer
* Hubert Kario:

> when I mark project as followed I'm getting messages from all issues
> and all PRs - likely dozens if not hundred messages a day

But isn't that the point?

My main concern with Github is that I have no record of my own
actions.  (Their single-account policy is also a problem for some of
us, but that is perhaps our own fault.)
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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Richard Levitte
In message <8c351e82-600b-487e-aef3-a3f42cd23...@akamai.com> on Tue, 23 Jan 
2018 14:38:14 +, "Salz, Rich via openssl-dev"  
said:

openssl-dev> 
openssl-dev> ➢ For the lovers of NNTP: openssl-project has been added to 
news.gmane.org
openssl-dev> as gmane.comp.encryption.openssl.project as readonly list.
openssl-dev>   
openssl-dev> I will always have a fondness for NNTP :)

...  except for the trashing of the database disk(s) back in the days
if you're running a server...  (I did)  (on VMS ;-))

But yeah, totally agree otherwise

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Salz, Rich via openssl-dev
➢ ah, true, I have those disabled because I use the same account for both my 
personal and my work projects so no single email address is correct for them

At least we figured out the confusion!

I have no good answer other than subject line filtering and forwarding, sorry.

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Hubert Kario
On Tuesday, 23 January 2018 16:13:30 CET Salz, Rich wrote:
> ➢  github ones require me to go to the web 
> UI which is slow
> 
> I am confused by that.  When someone posts an issue or comment, I get the
> text emailed to me.  Not just openssl, but all projects I watch.
 
ah, true, I have those disabled because I use the same account for both my 
personal and my work projects so no single email address is correct for them

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Salz, Rich via openssl-dev
➢  github ones require me to go to the web 
UI which is slow

I am confused by that.  When someone posts an issue or comment, I get the text 
emailed to me.  Not just openssl, but all projects I watch.




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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Dr. Matthias St. Pierre
On 23.01.2018 15:54, Hubert Kario wrote:
> On Tuesday, 23 January 2018 15:36:26 CET Salz, Rich wrote:
>> ➢ this feature sends notifications about _all_ conversations happening.
>> 
>> For me, I get the actual comments that are posted.  Don’t you?
> when I comment in an issue/PR or mark it as followed I'm getting only 
> messages 
> from that issue/PR
>
> when I mark project as followed I'm getting messages from all issues and all 
> PRs - likely dozens if not hundred messages a day

Have you checked Github > Settings > Emails > Email preferences ? 
Maybe yours are set to "Receive all emails"?

My settings are as follows:

   ( )  Receive all emails, except those I unsubscribe from.

   (*) Only receive account related emails, and those I subscribe to.

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Hubert Kario
On Tuesday, 23 January 2018 15:36:26 CET Salz, Rich wrote:
> ➢ this feature sends notifications about _all_ conversations happening.
> 
> For me, I get the actual comments that are posted.  Don’t you?

when I comment in an issue/PR or mark it as followed I'm getting only messages 
from that issue/PR

when I mark project as followed I'm getting messages from all issues and all 
PRs - likely dozens if not hundred messages a day

> On the
> mailing list, you have to explicitly mark/junk conversation threads in your
> mail program.  You would still have to do that here.
 
> I don’t understand what you see as different?

that marking a conversation as ignored and going to next one is two key 
combinations and less than a second, github ones require me to go to the web 
UI which is slow, and if I have to view the issue because subject is ambiguous 
it takes ten times as long as it does when using email

email clients are designed to handle hundreds to thousands of messages a day, 
Github UI isn't

or to put it other way: github notifications are perfect if you are directly 
involved in the project, they suck if you just want to keep tabs on an active 
project
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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Salz, Rich via openssl-dev

➢ For the lovers of NNTP: openssl-project has been added to news.gmane.org
as gmane.comp.encryption.openssl.project as readonly list.
  
I will always have a fondness for NNTP :)  But that reminds me to nudge the 
other mailing list distributors, and update the website.  Thanks!

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Salz, Rich via openssl-dev
➢ this feature sends notifications about _all_ conversations happening.

For me, I get the actual comments that are posted.  Don’t you?  On the mailing 
list, you have to explicitly mark/junk conversation threads in your mail 
program.  You would still have to do that here.

I don’t understand what you see as different?

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Hubert Kario
On Tuesday, 23 January 2018 15:22:13 CET Salz, Rich wrote:
> You should be able to just watch the openssl repo (the eyeball/watch notice
> in the upper-right side)

that's what I was talking about

this feature sends notifications about _all_ conversations happening.

> On 1/23/18, 7:00 AM, "Hubert Kario"  wrote:
> 
> On Friday, 19 January 2018 18:34:57 CET Salz, Rich via openssl-dev
> wrote:
> > There’s a new blog post at 
> > 
> > https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/
> 
> 
> 
> > We decided to increase our use of GitHub. In addition to asking that
> > all bug
> > reports and enhancement requests be reported as issues, we
> > now want all major code proposals to be discussed as issues before a
> > large pull request shows up. This will let the community discuss the
> > feature, offer input on design and such, before having code to look
> > at. We hope this will let us all first look at the bigger picture,
> > before getting bogged down in the weeds of line-by-line code reviews.
> 
> 
> does that mean I have to subscribe to all notifications from the openssl
> 
> github project to notice them? that's really suboptimal
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Hubert Kario
> Senior Quality Engineer, QE BaseOS Security team
> Web: www.cz.redhat.com
> Red Hat Czech s.r.o., Purkyňova 115, 612 00  Brno, Czech Republic
> 


-- 
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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Jan Ehrhardt
Salz, Rich via open ssl-dev in gmane.comp.encryption.openssl.devel
(Fri, 19 Jan 2018 17:34:57 +):
>- New mailing list openssl-project for project discussions

For the lovers of NNTP: openssl-project has been added to news.gmane.org
as gmane.comp.encryption.openssl.project as readonly list.
-- 
Jan

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Salz, Rich via openssl-dev
You should be able to just watch the openssl repo (the eyeball/watch notice in 
the upper-right side)

On 1/23/18, 7:00 AM, "Hubert Kario"  wrote:

On Friday, 19 January 2018 18:34:57 CET Salz, Rich via openssl-dev wrote:
> There’s a new blog post at 
> https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/

> We decided to increase our use of GitHub. In addition to asking that all 
bug
> reports and enhancement requests be reported as issues, we now want all
> major code proposals to be discussed as issues before a large pull request
> shows up. This will let the community discuss the feature, offer input on
> design and such, before having code to look at. We hope this will let us
> all first look at the bigger picture, before getting bogged down in the
> weeds of line-by-line code reviews.

does that mean I have to subscribe to all notifications from the openssl 
github project to notice them? that's really suboptimal

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Dmitry Belyavsky
Hello,

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Hubert Kario  wrote:

> On Friday, 19 January 2018 18:34:57 CET Salz, Rich via openssl-dev wrote:
> > There’s a new blog post at
> > https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/
>
> > We decided to increase our use of GitHub. In addition to asking that all
> bug
> > reports and enhancement requests be reported as issues, we now want all
> > major code proposals to be discussed as issues before a large pull
> request
> > shows up. This will let the community discuss the feature, offer input on
> > design and such, before having code to look at. We hope this will let us
> > all first look at the bigger picture, before getting bogged down in the
> > weeds of line-by-line code reviews.
>
> does that mean I have to subscribe to all notifications from the openssl
> github project to notice them? that's really suboptimal
>

Totally agree.


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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-23 Thread Hubert Kario
On Friday, 19 January 2018 18:34:57 CET Salz, Rich via openssl-dev wrote:
> There’s a new blog post at 
> https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/

> We decided to increase our use of GitHub. In addition to asking that all bug
> reports and enhancement requests be reported as issues, we now want all
> major code proposals to be discussed as issues before a large pull request
> shows up. This will let the community discuss the feature, offer input on
> design and such, before having code to look at. We hope this will let us
> all first look at the bigger picture, before getting bogged down in the
> weeds of line-by-line code reviews.

does that mean I have to subscribe to all notifications from the openssl 
github project to notice them? that's really suboptimal

-- 
Regards,
Hubert Kario
Senior Quality Engineer, QE BaseOS Security team
Web: www.cz.redhat.com
Red Hat Czech s.r.o., Purkyňova 115, 612 00  Brno, Czech Republic

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-19 Thread Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
On 1/19/18, 12:52, "Salz, Rich"  wrote:

 >> It appears to me that you could use openssl-dev instead of openssl-project, 
 >> saving cycles on killing
>> one and creating the other.
>
>  We discussed that, but it would be harder to “undo” if things don’t work 
> out, we wanted
>   to make it very clear that this is a new way of operating, and 
> openssl-project is a
>   moderated list.  Make sense?

I don’t know. I’d still do as I said. But since you guys discussed it (i.e., 
debated this option), I’ll defer to your judgment.



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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-19 Thread Salz, Rich via openssl-dev
➢ It appears to me that you could use openssl-dev instead of openssl-project, 
saving cycles on killing one and creating the other.

We discussed that, but it would be harder to “undo” if things don’t work out, 
we wanted to make it very clear that this is a new way of operating, and 
openssl-project is a moderated list.  Make sense?

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Re: [openssl-dev] Blog post; changing in email, crypto policy, etc

2018-01-19 Thread Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
It appears to me that you could use openssl-dev instead of openssl-project, 
saving cycles on killing one and creating the other.

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Regards,
Uri Blumenthal

On 1/19/18, 12:35, "openssl-dev on behalf of Salz, Rich via openssl-dev" 
 wrote:

There’s a new blog post at 
https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2018/01/18/f2f-london/

It contains some important policy changes we decided at our meeting last 
month.  This includes:
- Closing the openssl-dev mailing list; use GitHub for issues
- New mailing list openssl-project for project discussions
- New policy for accepting crypto algorithms, formats, and protocols.
- .. several others

Please read the posting; the changes described in it affect everyone who 
uses OpenSSL.  Thanks for your interest, and all your efforts to help improve 
the project!



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