AW: Being socially aware

2019-09-17 Thread Dr. Matthias St. Pierre
> I agree, this shouldn’t have been a “good first issue”.

You might be right, but in hindsight it’s always easier to judge. In advance it 
was not at all
obvious to me at all that this pull request would be discussed so 
controversially.

For me, the task had all properties which in my view make it a good first issue:

- There was an issue report about a missing feature
   https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/9880

- The task was straight forward and had the right size.
   Also, there was a precedence in the code.

So instead of rushing towards an own solution, I took the time to describe an 
outline
of a possible implementation, because I like the idea behind the [good first 
issue] tag,
which is to lower the bar for new contributors.

Personally, I don’t think that a lively discussion is discouraging per se. 
Discussing about
solutions and convincing others is an important aspect of open source 
development,
which one can start learning from the very first pull request.

Criticism is only harmful if it is carried out with a negative attitude. But 
recalling my
own experience as a beginner, I can say that this was never the case. I always
experienced the OpenSSL community as very positive and welcoming to newcomers,
and feedback was always constructive.

Matthias


Re: Being socially aware

2019-09-17 Thread Paul Yang
I think this highly depends on a person’s character - sensitive or insensitive 
for instance. Communicating online makes it even harder to know one’s emotion 
behind the screens/comments.

I am kinda agree with Richard that the issues with label "good first issue” 
could be treated a little more cautious to encourage more new contributors - 
suppose  passing the regular review process of course.

> On Sep 17, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Richard Levitte  wrote:
> 
> You forget that this is done in public, i.e. others are looking at how
> we treat those who do come forward and submit code to some bite size
> issue.  So while @agnosticdev may have enough skin on his nose,
> onlookers that are considering whether they should contribute may not.
> 
> On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:04:21 +0200,
> Dr. Matthias St. Pierre wrote:
>> 
>> I appreciate your concerns Richard, but I believe they are unwarranted in 
>> this
>> case fortunately.
>> 
>> First, my impression is that the discussion between was objective all the 
>> time
>> and far from being heated up with emotions.
>> 
>> Second, looking at the profile of the contributor, one can assert that he 
>> might
>> be relatively new to our project, but he is certainly experienced in Open 
>> Source
>> development. So I wouldn't worry too much about his feelings 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Matthias
>> 
> --
> Richard Levitte levi...@openssl.org
> OpenSSL Project http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/


Regards,

Paul Yang



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP


Re: AW: Being socially aware

2019-09-17 Thread Richard Levitte
You forget that this is done in public, i.e. others are looking at how
we treat those who do come forward and submit code to some bite size
issue.  So while @agnosticdev may have enough skin on his nose,
onlookers that are considering whether they should contribute may not.

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:04:21 +0200,
Dr. Matthias St. Pierre wrote:
> 
> I appreciate your concerns Richard, but I believe they are unwarranted in this
> case fortunately.
> 
> First, my impression is that the discussion between was objective all the time
> and far from being heated up with emotions.
> 
> Second, looking at the profile of the contributor, one can assert that he 
> might
> be relatively new to our project, but he is certainly experienced in Open 
> Source
> development. So I wouldn't worry too much about his feelings 
> 
> Regards,
> Matthias
> 
-- 
Richard Levitte levi...@openssl.org
OpenSSL Project http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/


AW: Being socially aware

2019-09-17 Thread Dr. Matthias St. Pierre
I appreciate your concerns Richard, but I believe they are unwarranted in this
case fortunately.

First, my impression is that the discussion between was objective all the time
and far from being heated up with emotions.

Second, looking at the profile of the contributor, one can assert that he might
be relatively new to our project, but he is certainly experienced in Open Source
development. So I wouldn't worry too much about his feelings 

Regards,
Matthias



Re: Being socially aware

2019-09-17 Thread Dr Paul Dale
I’m not disputing the great effort put into this.
My dispute is that it should be under the openssl list command…..

I agree, this shouldn’t have been a “good first issue”.


Pauli
-- 
Dr Paul Dale | Distinguished Architect | Cryptographic Foundations 
Phone +61 7 3031 7217
Oracle Australia




> On 17 Sep 2019, at 3:49 pm, Richard Levitte  wrote:
> 
> ...  or how our usual style of dispute can sometimes deter help from
> the community.
> 
> https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/9912
> 
> In this PR, there's a lot of discussions going on, a bit back an
> forth, about the right way to do things, and what does what like what
> other thing and so on.
> 
> This is often our modus operandi, and it has often given us pretty
> good quality code (or at least, so we hope), even though it can be a
> bit exhausting at times.
> 
> I would like to emphasise that I think this is absolutely fine...
> when it's among us who have been along for a bit, perhaps have come to
> know each other a bit more and have some kind of sense of our
> respective strengths and weaknesses, or even with someone that has
> shown they can handle this type of discussion.
> 
> However, in pull requests like the one cited, where the associated
> issue is marked "good first issue", and the author has done quite well
> what was asked from the issue, it can be quite unexpected, not to say
> overwhelming to be met with this discussion style that could be seen
> as getting out of proportion.  A "good first issue" is supposed to be
> a bite size thing after all, and I fear that if this is how we welcome
> new contributors, they might more often than not choose to step away
> from it all.
> 
> So maybe let's be a little more careful with contributions for "good
> first issue" and potential newcomers, yeah?
> 
> Cheers,
> Richard
> 
> -- 
> Richard Levitte levi...@openssl.org
> OpenSSL Project http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/