Re: [Openstack] [ceilometer] Potential New Use Cases
Yes, I see a general need to be able to represent meta data the identifies associations between monitored systems and between usage stored in the datastore. There could be a variety of ways that we need to relate event data, so the mechanism should be relatively generic. In addition to your use case, we would want to be able to map instances to other tenants, group VM's together to represent some kind of shared identity or behavior, map instances to some kind of special service type. I think there are big advantages to keeping the collection and storage of this data separate: 1. It does not require Nova to be aware of the details of the VM internals. 2.It allows for deferral of processing until later in the rating process, which helps on scalability 3. makes it easier to extract and report on this data for other use cases besides the base billing 4. it more extensible in the sense that you can add arbitrary metadata without affecting the core usage data generation. We use this information as part of our rating process to determine the correct charges to apply, so we will need to be able to query for it. Dan On 11/5/2012 5:04 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote: On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dan Dyer dan.dye...@gmail.com mailto:dan.dye...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, I am assuming the service controller provides a different stream of data from the lower level VM events. So the question is how to represent and store this additional meta data in ceilometer. Note that there doesn't necessarily need to be a linkage/grouping between the resources since the association is what is actually contained in the metadata that is provided by the service controller. As a summary Nova provides its normal events for usage Service controller provides a mapping of nova instances to service type and actual end user So the problem isn't necessarily that you want to measure something different, but that the ownership in the existing data is not correct from the perspective of the billing system. We have a similar issue at DreamHost. Our existing user database has account ids that need to be mapped to tenant ids from keystone. Rather than putting that information in keystone, or ceilometer, we decided to store it in our system and have the DreamHost billing system drive the ceilometer API. Does it make sense to do something similar here? If we definitely want ceilometer to hold the metadata, then I could also see adding an API to let an outside system add metadata to a resource. That would let the PaaS code, which knows about each VM, store extra data that would be returned with the VM metadata when a caller visits /resources/resourceid. Would you expect to be able to query using the metadata? For example, provide the total instance hours for all instances with paas_tag=foo? Doug Dan On 11/1/2012 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote: On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Dan Dyer dan.dye...@gmail.com mailto:dan.dye...@gmail.com wrote: In some cases, the service controller is actually running inside a VM. It would not have access to the internals of the VM's. It maintains its metadata separately from the Nova infrastructure. It doesn't need internal access to the VM, but something has to share the metadata with ceilometer (or join it to the data ceilometer has) at some point. If it would be too difficult to get the data into the events, then it could be done by the app that uses the ceilometer API to query for usage. For example, the app that loads data from ceilometer to your real billing system could be driven by data saved by the service controller in whatever database it uses. Doug DD On 10/25/2012 2:25 AM, Nick Barcet wrote: Let's imagine that the service that launch instances can tag the instance with: a) a common service identifier (constant) b) a uuid unique for each Unit of the service such as constant:uuid If that tag is passed onto the events which ceilometer stores in its entirety as meta, I do not see what the difficulty would be for the rating engine to be able to reconcile the information to handle your 2 use cases. Am I missing something? Nick On 10/25/2012 12:03 AM, Dan Dyer wrote: I don't think its just a matter of adding more meters or events for a couple of reasons: 1. In many cases the metadata I am referring to comes from a different source than the base usage data. Nova is still emitting its normal events, but we get the service/user mapping from a different source. I would not characterize this data as usage metrics but more data about the system relationships. 2. in the multiple VM case, we need to have the relationships specified so that we can ignore the proper VM's
Re: [Openstack] [ceilometer] Potential New Use Cases
Yes, I am assuming the service controller provides a different stream of data from the lower level VM events. So the question is how to represent and store this additional meta data in ceilometer. Note that there doesn't necessarily need to be a linkage/grouping between the resources since the association is what is actually contained in the metadata that is provided by the service controller. As a summary Nova provides its normal events for usage Service controller provides a mapping of nova instances to service type and actual end user Dan On 11/1/2012 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote: On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Dan Dyer dan.dye...@gmail.com mailto:dan.dye...@gmail.com wrote: In some cases, the service controller is actually running inside a VM. It would not have access to the internals of the VM's. It maintains its metadata separately from the Nova infrastructure. It doesn't need internal access to the VM, but something has to share the metadata with ceilometer (or join it to the data ceilometer has) at some point. If it would be too difficult to get the data into the events, then it could be done by the app that uses the ceilometer API to query for usage. For example, the app that loads data from ceilometer to your real billing system could be driven by data saved by the service controller in whatever database it uses. Doug DD On 10/25/2012 2:25 AM, Nick Barcet wrote: Let's imagine that the service that launch instances can tag the instance with: a) a common service identifier (constant) b) a uuid unique for each Unit of the service such as constant:uuid If that tag is passed onto the events which ceilometer stores in its entirety as meta, I do not see what the difficulty would be for the rating engine to be able to reconcile the information to handle your 2 use cases. Am I missing something? Nick On 10/25/2012 12:03 AM, Dan Dyer wrote: I don't think its just a matter of adding more meters or events for a couple of reasons: 1. In many cases the metadata I am referring to comes from a different source than the base usage data. Nova is still emitting its normal events, but we get the service/user mapping from a different source. I would not characterize this data as usage metrics but more data about the system relationships. 2. in the multiple VM case, we need to have the relationships specified so that we can ignore the proper VM's. There has also been talk of hybrid billing models that charge for some part of the VM usage as well as other metrics. Once again we need a way to characterize the relationships so that processing can associate and filter correctly. Dan On 10/24/2012 3:35 PM, Julien Danjou wrote: On Wed, Oct 24 2012, Dan Dyer wrote: Use Case 1 Service Owned Instances There are a set of use cases where a service is acting on behalf of a user, the service is the owner of the VM but billing needs to be attributed to the end user of the system.This scenario drives two requirements: 1. Pricing is similar to base VM's but with a premium. So the type of service for a VM needs to be identifiable so that the appropriate pricing can be applied. 2. The actual end user of the VM needs to be identified so usage can be properly attributed I think that for this, you just need to add more meters on top of the existing one with your own user and project id information. As an example, in some of our PAAS use cases, there is a service controller running on top of the base VM that maintains the control and and manages the customer experience. The idea is to expose the service and not have the customer have to (or even be able to) manipulate the virtual machine directly. So in this case, from a Nova perspective, the PAAS service owns the VM and it's tenantID is what is reported back in events. The way we resolve this is to query the service controller for meta data about that instances they own. This is stored off in a separate table and used to determine the real user at aggregation time. This is probably where you should emit the meters you need. Use Case 2 Multple Instances combine to make a billable product/service In this use case, a service might consist of several VM's, but the actual number does not directly drive the billing. An example of this might be a redundant service that has a primary and two backup VM's that make up a deployment. The customer is charged for the service, not the fact that there are 3 VM's running. Once again, we need meta data that is able to describe this relationship so that when the billing records are processed, this relationship can be identified and billed properly. Kind of the same here, if you don't want to really bill the vm, just
Re: [Openstack] [ceilometer] Potential New Use Cases
In some cases, the service controller is actually running inside a VM. It would not have access to the internals of the VM's. It maintains its metadata separately from the Nova infrastructure. DD On 10/25/2012 2:25 AM, Nick Barcet wrote: Let's imagine that the service that launch instances can tag the instance with: a) a common service identifier (constant) b) a uuid unique for each Unit of the service such as constant:uuid If that tag is passed onto the events which ceilometer stores in its entirety as meta, I do not see what the difficulty would be for the rating engine to be able to reconcile the information to handle your 2 use cases. Am I missing something? Nick On 10/25/2012 12:03 AM, Dan Dyer wrote: I don't think its just a matter of adding more meters or events for a couple of reasons: 1. In many cases the metadata I am referring to comes from a different source than the base usage data. Nova is still emitting its normal events, but we get the service/user mapping from a different source. I would not characterize this data as usage metrics but more data about the system relationships. 2. in the multiple VM case, we need to have the relationships specified so that we can ignore the proper VM's. There has also been talk of hybrid billing models that charge for some part of the VM usage as well as other metrics. Once again we need a way to characterize the relationships so that processing can associate and filter correctly. Dan On 10/24/2012 3:35 PM, Julien Danjou wrote: On Wed, Oct 24 2012, Dan Dyer wrote: Use Case 1 Service Owned Instances There are a set of use cases where a service is acting on behalf of a user, the service is the owner of the VM but billing needs to be attributed to the end user of the system.This scenario drives two requirements: 1. Pricing is similar to base VM's but with a premium. So the type of service for a VM needs to be identifiable so that the appropriate pricing can be applied. 2. The actual end user of the VM needs to be identified so usage can be properly attributed I think that for this, you just need to add more meters on top of the existing one with your own user and project id information. As an example, in some of our PAAS use cases, there is a service controller running on top of the base VM that maintains the control and and manages the customer experience. The idea is to expose the service and not have the customer have to (or even be able to) manipulate the virtual machine directly. So in this case, from a Nova perspective, the PAAS service owns the VM and it's tenantID is what is reported back in events. The way we resolve this is to query the service controller for meta data about that instances they own. This is stored off in a separate table and used to determine the real user at aggregation time. This is probably where you should emit the meters you need. Use Case 2 Multple Instances combine to make a billable product/service In this use case, a service might consist of several VM's, but the actual number does not directly drive the billing. An example of this might be a redundant service that has a primary and two backup VM's that make up a deployment. The customer is charged for the service, not the fact that there are 3 VM's running. Once again, we need meta data that is able to describe this relationship so that when the billing records are processed, this relationship can be identified and billed properly. Kind of the same here, if you don't want to really bill the vm, just don't meter them (or ignore the meters) and emit your own meter via your PaaS platform to bill your customer. Or is there a limitation I miss? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Openstack] [ceilometer] Potential New Use Cases
Based on a discussion with Doug at the Summit, I would like to propose a couple of new use cases for Ceilometer. As background, up until now, the usage data that Ceilometer collects could be considered atomic in the sense that everything needed to understand/process the information could be contained in a single generated event. We have identified some use cases that will require additional meta data about the source and/or type of the event so that later processing can be performed. Use Case 1 Service Owned Instances There are a set of use cases where a service is acting on behalf of a user, the service is the owner of the VM but billing needs to be attributed to the end user of the system.This scenario drives two requirements: 1. Pricing is similar to base VM's but with a premium. So the type of service for a VM needs to be identifiable so that the appropriate pricing can be applied. 2. The actual end user of the VM needs to be identified so usage can be properly attributed As an example, in some of our PAAS use cases, there is a service controller running on top of the base VM that maintains the control and and manages the customer experience. The idea is to expose the service and not have the customer have to (or even be able to) manipulate the virtual machine directly. So in this case, from a Nova perspective, the PAAS service owns the VM and it's tenantID is what is reported back in events. The way we resolve this is to query the service controller for meta data about that instances they own. This is stored off in a separate table and used to determine the real user at aggregation time.Note that in theory you could do this in the agent as part of collection, but we have found that this is very expensive and scales best if the actual substitution is delayed until the latest point possible (which at that point potentially means there are less records to process or can be better handled with parallel processing using something like MapReduce.From a billing perspective these instances will have unique pricing (i.e. premium on top of the base VM cost). Part of the aggregation process is to substitute the billable account for the service account and identify the service type so that proper billing can be applied. We would like to see the Ceilometer data model expanded to store this kind of metadata. Use Case 2 Multple Instances combine to make a billable product/service In this use case, a service might consist of several VM's, but the actual number does not directly drive the billing. An example of this might be a redundant service that has a primary and two backup VM's that make up a deployment. The customer is charged for the service, not the fact that there are 3 VM's running. Once again, we need meta data that is able to describe this relationship so that when the billing records are processed, this relationship can be identified and billed properly. Both of these use cases point to a general need to be able to store meta-data that will allow the usage processing logic to identify relationships between VM's and provide additional context for determining billing policy. Dan Dyer HP Cloud Services aka: DanD ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] [ceilometer] Potential New Use Cases
I don't think its just a matter of adding more meters or events for a couple of reasons: 1. In many cases the metadata I am referring to comes from a different source than the base usage data. Nova is still emitting its normal events, but we get the service/user mapping from a different source. I would not characterize this data as usage metrics but more data about the system relationships. 2. in the multiple VM case, we need to have the relationships specified so that we can ignore the proper VM's. There has also been talk of hybrid billing models that charge for some part of the VM usage as well as other metrics. Once again we need a way to characterize the relationships so that processing can associate and filter correctly. Dan On 10/24/2012 3:35 PM, Julien Danjou wrote: On Wed, Oct 24 2012, Dan Dyer wrote: Use Case 1 Service Owned Instances There are a set of use cases where a service is acting on behalf of a user, the service is the owner of the VM but billing needs to be attributed to the end user of the system.This scenario drives two requirements: 1. Pricing is similar to base VM's but with a premium. So the type of service for a VM needs to be identifiable so that the appropriate pricing can be applied. 2. The actual end user of the VM needs to be identified so usage can be properly attributed I think that for this, you just need to add more meters on top of the existing one with your own user and project id information. As an example, in some of our PAAS use cases, there is a service controller running on top of the base VM that maintains the control and and manages the customer experience. The idea is to expose the service and not have the customer have to (or even be able to) manipulate the virtual machine directly. So in this case, from a Nova perspective, the PAAS service owns the VM and it's tenantID is what is reported back in events. The way we resolve this is to query the service controller for meta data about that instances they own. This is stored off in a separate table and used to determine the real user at aggregation time. This is probably where you should emit the meters you need. Use Case 2 Multple Instances combine to make a billable product/service In this use case, a service might consist of several VM's, but the actual number does not directly drive the billing. An example of this might be a redundant service that has a primary and two backup VM's that make up a deployment. The customer is charged for the service, not the fact that there are 3 VM's running. Once again, we need meta data that is able to describe this relationship so that when the billing records are processed, this relationship can be identified and billed properly. Kind of the same here, if you don't want to really bill the vm, just don't meter them (or ignore the meters) and emit your own meter via your PaaS platform to bill your customer. Or is there a limitation I miss? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
