Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support
On 08/09/2012 11:05 PM, George Reese wrote: On Aug 9, 2012, at 8:14 PM, Doug Davis d...@us.ibm.com mailto:d...@us.ibm.com wrote: Situations like this are always interesting to watch. :-) On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then put up the resources to make it happen. This attitude always bothers me. This isn't some Open Source labor of love. It's a commercial collaboration in which many of the contributors have a significant economic interest. To be more blunt: if I'm writing code, it's for enStratus. Patches always welcome, George. If you can't see that code you may write for enStratus might be globally useful, then you're missing the point of this open development community. And although there are many in this OpenStack community that work for a commercial entity and contribute code as such, there are many who don't -- and dismissing their contributions as some Open Source labor of love is degrading and shows the type of opinion you have towards anything that doesn't fit nicely in your everything-is-a-commercial-agenda worldview. If you care about something, then help to fix it. -jay ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support
On Aug 10, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Jay Pipes jaypi...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/09/2012 11:05 PM, George Reese wrote: On Aug 9, 2012, at 8:14 PM, Doug Davis d...@us.ibm.com mailto:d...@us.ibm.com wrote: Situations like this are always interesting to watch. :-) On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then put up the resources to make it happen. This attitude always bothers me. This isn't some Open Source labor of love. It's a commercial collaboration in which many of the contributors have a significant economic interest. To be more blunt: if I'm writing code, it's for enStratus. Patches always welcome, George. If you can't see that code you may write for enStratus might be globally useful, then you're missing the point of this open development community. And although there are many in this OpenStack community that work for a commercial entity and contribute code as such, there are many who don't -- and dismissing their contributions as some Open Source labor of love is degrading and shows the type of opinion you have towards anything that doesn't fit nicely in your everything-is-a-commercial-agenda worldview. If you care about something, then help to fix it. Either you aren't reading what I am writing or you can't read. I'm willing to bet I have written more lines of Open Source code over more years than you have. So don't start assigning some kind of evil capitalist motives on me. The fact that I don't have code going into enStratus that is not of use to OpenStack is not an indication that a) I have some kind of everything-is-a-commercial-agenda worldview or b) that I don't do Open Source or c) I don't think that some Open Source is a labor of love. OpenStack is a commercial agenda however. Pretending that it's a labor of love and people should feel lucky to get functionality is just daft. -George -- George Reese - Chief Technology Officer, enStratus e: george.re...@enstratus.comSkype: nspollutiont: @GeorgeReesep: +1.207.956.0217 enStratus: Enterprise Cloud Management - @enStratus - http://www.enstratus.com To schedule a meeting with me: http://tungle.me/GeorgeReese ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support
On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com wrote: Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON? The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them. Our devstack exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest has json clients but no xml clients[1]. I think this demonstrates that there just isn't a huge desire for xml. Users that I have chatted with just seem to care that the api works and that they they have good bindings. I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm secretly hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work to maintain three APIs (we are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keep them all functioning well, so if people are happy without OpenStack XML I would be perfectly content to deprecate it. Vish [1] https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support
Has anyone surveyed those subscribed to openstack-operators@lists.openstack.org list for usage? While imperfect, at least it would be asking the constituency that might be most affected. You might also consider asking whether they would prefer JSON or XML, regardless of what they use today.I agree with George that weighing developer interest in writing some test cases is likely not the best measure of how widely the XML API is used in practice.One last slightly unrelated point. There was discussion and a PPB decision not to maintain 3rd party APIs in core. Why does the EC2 API remain? Cheers,Christopher FerrisIBM Distinguished Engineer, CTO Industry and Cloud StandardsMember, IBM Academy of TechnologyIBM Software Group, Standards Strategyemail: chris...@us.ibm.comTwitter: christo4ferrisphone: +1 508 234 2986-openstack-bounces+chrisfer=us.ibm@lists.launchpad.net wrote: -To: OpenStack Development Mailing Listopenstack-...@lists.openstack.orgFrom: Vishvananda Ishaya Sent by: openstack-bounces+chrisfer=us.ibm@lists.launchpad.netDate: 08/09/2012 07:05PMCc: "openstack@lists.launchpad.net \(openstack@lists.launchpad.net\)"openstack@lists.launchpad.netSubject: Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help --OpenStack API XML SupportOn Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese george.re...@imaginary.comwrote:Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON?The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them.Our devstack exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest hasjson clients but no xml clients[1]. I think this demonstrates thatthere just isn't a huge desire for xml. Users that I have chattedwith just seem to care that the api works and that they they havegood bindings.I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'msecretly hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work tomaintain three APIs (we are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keepthem all functioning well, so if people are happy without OpenStackXML I would be perfectly content to deprecate it.Vish[1]https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml ___ Mailing list:https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to :openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe :https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help :https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support
Situations like this are always interesting to watch. :-) On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then put up the resources to make it happen. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that as a developer you get to ignore the bigger picture and only do 1/2 of the work because you don't care about the other 1/2. Overall, I tend to agree with the attitude that as long as XML is officially supported then all code changes need to make sure they run through both the JSON and XML codepaths. And if this means twice the testcases then so be it. People committing code shouldn't have a choice in this - its either you do the full job or your code is rejected. Having said that, it is a valid question to ask whether we want to continue to support both JSON and XML going forward. But, until that decision is formally made letting 1/2 of the APIs atrophy makes the entire community look bad and therefore should not be allowed to happen. My vote: from now on don't let any code change in unless if works for both. I suspect we'll either see the XML side come up to speed really quickly or it'll force an ugly vote. But either way, this needs to be resolved before the next release. thanks -Doug STSM | Standards Architect | IBM Software Group (919) 254-6905 | IBM 444-6905 | d...@us.ibm.com The more I'm around some people, the more I like my dog. George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com 08/09/2012 07:02 PM Please respond to OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.org To OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.org cc openstack@lists.launchpad.net \(openstack@lists.launchpad.net\) openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject Re: [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support And this is why I go off on the developer-oriented mentality of the OpenStack community. The fact that there is no one in the OpenStack developer community writing XML stuff is not a reflection of the fact that there's no huge desire for XML. It's in the spec for a reason: BECAUSE ENTERPRISES USE XML HEAVILY OpenStack developers aren't that audience. They use JSON. That the project can get to this point and not have tests for these things shows a flaw in the development processes, not some grand illustration of supply and demand. Do I really have to point out that if the spec calls for JSON and XML, you should bloody well write integration tests to check for JSON and XML? You don't write whatever happens to please you. You know how I know all of this? I have an API that supports both XML and JSON. I personally prefer JSON. Most of my friends and colleagues prefer and use JSON. Most of my customers use XML. Thank $deity I actually write unit tests for each format. -George File under: - statistics 101 - software development 101 On Aug 9, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Vishvananda Ishaya vishvana...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com wrote: Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON? The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them. Our devstack exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest has json clients but no xml clients[1]. I think this demonstrates that there just isn't a huge desire for xml. Users that I have chatted with just seem to care that the api works and that they they have good bindings. I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm secretly hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work to maintain three APIs (we are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keep them all functioning well, so if people are happy without OpenStack XML I would be perfectly content to deprecate it. Vish [1] https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list openstack-...@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- George Reese (george.re...@imaginary.com) t: @GeorgeReese m: +1(207)956-0217 Skype: nspollution cal: http://tungle.me/GeorgeReese ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list openstack-...@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support
As part of my work on Tempest, I've created an alternate backend configuration to use XML requests/responses. This right now mostly covers Nova, but could easily be extended to test other projects as well. I hadn't pushed it yet because it seemed to be low priority, but I'd be more than glad to accelerate and get this committed. Daryl On Aug 9, 2012, at 8:14 PM, Doug Davis d...@us.ibm.commailto:d...@us.ibm.com wrote: Situations like this are always interesting to watch. :-) On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then put up the resources to make it happen. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that as a developer you get to ignore the bigger picture and only do 1/2 of the work because you don't care about the other 1/2. Overall, I tend to agree with the attitude that as long as XML is officially supported then all code changes need to make sure they run through both the JSON and XML codepaths. And if this means twice the testcases then so be it. People committing code shouldn't have a choice in this - its either you do the full job or your code is rejected. Having said that, it is a valid question to ask whether we want to continue to support both JSON and XML going forward. But, until that decision is formally made letting 1/2 of the APIs atrophy makes the entire community look bad and therefore should not be allowed to happen. My vote: from now on don't let any code change in unless if works for both. I suspect we'll either see the XML side come up to speed really quickly or it'll force an ugly vote. But either way, this needs to be resolved before the next release. thanks -Doug STSM | Standards Architect | IBM Software Group (919) 254-6905 | IBM 444-6905 | d...@us.ibm.commailto:d...@us.ibm.com The more I'm around some people, the more I like my dog. George Reese george.re...@imaginary.commailto:george.re...@imaginary.com 08/09/2012 07:02 PM Please respond to OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.orgmailto:openstack-...@lists.openstack.org To OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.orgmailto:openstack-...@lists.openstack.org cc openstack@lists.launchpad.netmailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net \(openstack@lists.launchpad.netmailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net\) openstack@lists.launchpad.netmailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject Re: [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support And this is why I go off on the developer-oriented mentality of the OpenStack community. The fact that there is no one in the OpenStack developer community writing XML stuff is not a reflection of the fact that there's no huge desire for XML. It's in the spec for a reason: BECAUSE ENTERPRISES USE XML HEAVILY OpenStack developers aren't that audience. They use JSON. That the project can get to this point and not have tests for these things shows a flaw in the development processes, not some grand illustration of supply and demand. Do I really have to point out that if the spec calls for JSON and XML, you should bloody well write integration tests to check for JSON and XML? You don't write whatever happens to please you. You know how I know all of this? I have an API that supports both XML and JSON. I personally prefer JSON. Most of my friends and colleagues prefer and use JSON. Most of my customers use XML. Thank $deity I actually write unit tests for each format. -George File under: - statistics 101 - software development 101 On Aug 9, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Vishvananda Ishaya vishvana...@gmail.commailto:vishvana...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese george.re...@imaginary.commailto:george.re...@imaginary.com wrote: Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON? The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them. Our devstack exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest has json clients but no xml clients[1]. I think this demonstrates that there just isn't a huge desire for xml. Users that I have chatted with just seem to care that the api works and that they they have good bindings. I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm secretly hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work to maintain three APIs (we are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keep them all functioning well, so if people are happy without OpenStack XML I would be perfectly content to deprecate it. Vish [1] https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list openstack-...@lists.openstack.orgmailto:openstack-...@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- George Reese (george.re...@imaginary.commailto:george.re...@imaginary.com) t: @GeorgeReese m: +1(207)956
Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support
On Aug 9, 2012, at 8:14 PM, Doug Davis d...@us.ibm.com wrote: Situations like this are always interesting to watch. :-) On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then put up the resources to make it happen. This attitude always bothers me. This isn't some Open Source labor of love. It's a commercial collaboration in which many of the contributors have a significant economic interest. To be more blunt: if I'm writing code, it's for enStratus. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that as a developer you get to ignore the bigger picture and only do 1/2 of the work because you don't care about the other 1/2. Overall, I tend to agree with the attitude that as long as XML is officially supported then all code changes need to make sure they run through both the JSON and XML codepaths. And if this means twice the testcases then so be it. People committing code shouldn't have a choice in this - its either you do the full job or your code is rejected. +10 Having said that, it is a valid question to ask whether we want to continue to support both JSON and XML going forward. But, until that decision is formally made letting 1/2 of the APIs atrophy makes the entire community look bad and therefore should not be allowed to happen. Actually, it's not a valid question. That ship has sailed. XML is part of the spec, and we're talking about Folsom not Bexar. The API is the heart of the ecosystem. You never, ever deprecate code unless there's some strong compelling reason like a significant security flaw that can be addressed only through incompatibility. My vote: from now on don't let any code change in unless if works for both. I suspect we'll either see the XML side come up to speed really quickly or it'll force an ugly vote. But either way, this needs to be resolved before the next release. thanks -Doug STSM | Standards Architect | IBM Software Group (919) 254-6905 | IBM 444-6905 | d...@us.ibm.com The more I'm around some people, the more I like my dog. George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com 08/09/2012 07:02 PM Please respond to OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.org To OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.org cc openstack@lists.launchpad.net \(openstack@lists.launchpad.net\) openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject Re: [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XMLSupport And this is why I go off on the developer-oriented mentality of the OpenStack community. The fact that there is no one in the OpenStack developer community writing XML stuff is not a reflection of the fact that there's no huge desire for XML. It's in the spec for a reason: BECAUSE ENTERPRISES USE XML HEAVILY OpenStack developers aren't that audience. They use JSON. That the project can get to this point and not have tests for these things shows a flaw in the development processes, not some grand illustration of supply and demand. Do I really have to point out that if the spec calls for JSON and XML, you should bloody well write integration tests to check for JSON and XML? You don't write whatever happens to please you. You know how I know all of this? I have an API that supports both XML and JSON. I personally prefer JSON. Most of my friends and colleagues prefer and use JSON. Most of my customers use XML. Thank $deity I actually write unit tests for each format. -George File under: - statistics 101 - software development 101 On Aug 9, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Vishvananda Ishaya vishvana...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com wrote: Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON? The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them. Our devstack exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest has json clients but no xml clients[1]. I think this demonstrates that there just isn't a huge desire for xml. Users that I have chatted with just seem to care that the api works and that they they have good bindings. I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm secretly hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work to maintain three APIs (we are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keep them all functioning well, so if people are happy without OpenStack XML I would be perfectly content to deprecate it. Vish [1] https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list openstack-...@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- George Reese (george.re...@imaginary.com) t: @GeorgeReese m: +1(207)956-0217 Skype: nspollution
Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support
On Aug 9, 2012, at 6:28 PM, Daryl Walleck daryl.wall...@rackspace.com wrote: As part of my work on Tempest, I've created an alternate backend configuration to use XML requests/responses. This right now mostly covers Nova, but could easily be extended to test other projects as well. I hadn't pushed it yet because it seemed to be low priority, but I'd be more than glad to accelerate and get this committed. Daryl That is awesome news Daryl! Yes, please get this up as soon as possible so others can help. There definitely seems to be enough interest to at least have a go at cleaning up XML support. It would be great to know where the gaps are. Vish ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp