Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support

2012-08-10 Thread Jay Pipes
On 08/09/2012 11:05 PM, George Reese wrote:
 On Aug 9, 2012, at 8:14 PM, Doug Davis d...@us.ibm.com
 mailto:d...@us.ibm.com wrote:
 Situations like this are always interesting to watch.  :-)

 On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then
 put up the resources to make it happen.
 
 This attitude always bothers me. This isn't some Open Source labor of
 love. It's a commercial collaboration in which many of the contributors
 have a significant economic interest. 
 
 To be more blunt: if I'm writing code, it's for enStratus.

Patches always welcome, George. If you can't see that code you may write
for enStratus might be globally useful, then you're missing the point of
this open development community.

And although there are many in this OpenStack community that work for a
commercial entity and contribute code as such, there are many who don't
-- and dismissing their contributions as some Open Source labor of
love is degrading and shows the type of opinion you have towards
anything that doesn't fit nicely in your
everything-is-a-commercial-agenda worldview.

If you care about something, then help to fix it.

-jay

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Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support

2012-08-10 Thread George Reese

On Aug 10, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Jay Pipes jaypi...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 08/09/2012 11:05 PM, George Reese wrote:
 On Aug 9, 2012, at 8:14 PM, Doug Davis d...@us.ibm.com
 mailto:d...@us.ibm.com wrote:
 Situations like this are always interesting to watch.  :-)
 
 On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then
 put up the resources to make it happen.
 
 This attitude always bothers me. This isn't some Open Source labor of
 love. It's a commercial collaboration in which many of the contributors
 have a significant economic interest. 
 
 To be more blunt: if I'm writing code, it's for enStratus.
 
 Patches always welcome, George. If you can't see that code you may write
 for enStratus might be globally useful, then you're missing the point of
 this open development community.
 
 And although there are many in this OpenStack community that work for a
 commercial entity and contribute code as such, there are many who don't
 -- and dismissing their contributions as some Open Source labor of
 love is degrading and shows the type of opinion you have towards
 anything that doesn't fit nicely in your
 everything-is-a-commercial-agenda worldview.
 
 If you care about something, then help to fix it.
 
 


Either you aren't reading what I am writing or you can't read.

I'm willing to bet I have written more lines of Open Source code over more 
years than you have. So don't start assigning some kind of evil capitalist 
motives on me.

The fact that I don't have code going into enStratus that is not of use to 
OpenStack is not an indication that a) I have some kind of 
everything-is-a-commercial-agenda worldview or b) that I don't do Open Source 
or c) I don't think that some Open Source is a labor of love.

OpenStack is a commercial agenda however. Pretending that it's a labor of love 
and people should feel lucky to get functionality is just daft.

-George

--
George Reese - Chief Technology Officer, enStratus
e: george.re...@enstratus.comSkype: nspollutiont: @GeorgeReesep: 
+1.207.956.0217
enStratus: Enterprise Cloud Management - @enStratus - http://www.enstratus.com
To schedule a meeting with me: http://tungle.me/GeorgeReese

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Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support

2012-08-09 Thread Vishvananda Ishaya

On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com wrote:

 Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON?

The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them. Our devstack 
exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest has json clients but no xml 
clients[1]. I think this demonstrates that there just isn't a huge desire for 
xml. Users that I have chatted with just seem to care that the api works and 
that they they have good bindings.

I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm secretly 
hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work to maintain three APIs (we 
are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keep them all functioning well, so if 
people are happy without OpenStack XML I would be perfectly content to 
deprecate it.

Vish

[1] https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml

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Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support

2012-08-09 Thread Christopher B Ferris
Has anyone surveyed those subscribed to openstack-operators@lists.openstack.org
 list for usage? While imperfect, at least it would be asking the 
constituency that might be most affected. You might also consider asking
whether they would prefer JSON or XML, regardless of what they use today.I agree with George that weighing developer interest in writing some test cases is likely not the best measure of how widely the XML API is used in practice.One last slightly unrelated point. There was discussion and a PPB decision not to maintain 3rd party APIs in core. Why does the EC2 API remain? Cheers,Christopher FerrisIBM Distinguished Engineer, CTO Industry and Cloud StandardsMember, IBM Academy of TechnologyIBM Software Group, Standards Strategyemail: chris...@us.ibm.comTwitter: christo4ferrisphone: +1 508 234 2986-openstack-bounces+chrisfer=us.ibm@lists.launchpad.net wrote: -To: OpenStack Development Mailing Listopenstack-...@lists.openstack.orgFrom: Vishvananda Ishaya Sent by: openstack-bounces+chrisfer=us.ibm@lists.launchpad.netDate: 08/09/2012 07:05PMCc: "openstack@lists.launchpad.net \(openstack@lists.launchpad.net\)"openstack@lists.launchpad.netSubject: Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help --OpenStack	API XML SupportOn Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese george.re...@imaginary.comwrote:Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON?The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them.Our devstack exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest hasjson clients but no xml clients[1]. I think this demonstrates thatthere just isn't a huge desire for xml. Users that I have chattedwith just seem to care that the api works and that they they havegood bindings.I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'msecretly hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work tomaintain three APIs (we are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keepthem all functioning well, so if people are happy without OpenStackXML I would be perfectly content to deprecate it.Vish[1]https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml ___ Mailing list:https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to :openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe :https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help   :https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp 

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Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support

2012-08-09 Thread Doug Davis
Situations like this are always interesting to watch.  :-)

On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then put 
up the resources to make it happen.
On the other hand, that doesn't mean that as a developer you get to ignore 
the bigger picture and only do 1/2 of the work because you don't care 
about the other 1/2.

Overall, I tend to agree with the attitude that as long as XML is 
officially supported then all code changes need to make sure they run 
through both the JSON and XML codepaths. And if this means twice the 
testcases then so be it.  People committing code shouldn't have a choice 
in this - its either you do the full job or your code is rejected.

Having said that, it is a valid question to ask whether we want to 
continue to support both JSON and XML going forward.  But, until that 
decision is formally made letting 1/2 of the APIs atrophy makes the entire 
community look bad and therefore should not be allowed to happen. 

My vote: from now on don't let any code change in unless if works for 
both.  I suspect we'll either see the XML side come up to speed really 
quickly or it'll force an ugly vote.  But either way, this needs to be 
resolved before the next release.

thanks
-Doug

STSM |  Standards Architect  |  IBM Software Group
(919) 254-6905  |  IBM 444-6905  |  d...@us.ibm.com
The more I'm around some people, the more I like my dog.



George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com 
08/09/2012 07:02 PM
Please respond to
OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.org


To
OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.org
cc
openstack@lists.launchpad.net \(openstack@lists.launchpad.net\) 
openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Subject
Re: [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML   Support






And this is why I go off on the developer-oriented mentality of the 
OpenStack community.

The fact that there is no one in the OpenStack developer community writing 
XML stuff is not a reflection of the fact that there's no huge desire for 
XML.

It's in the spec for a reason: BECAUSE ENTERPRISES USE XML HEAVILY

OpenStack developers aren't that audience. They use JSON.

That the project can get to this point and not have tests for these things 
shows a flaw in the development processes, not some grand illustration of 
supply and demand.

Do I really have to point out that if the spec calls for JSON and XML, you 
should bloody well write integration tests to check for JSON and XML?

You don't write whatever happens to please you.

You know how I know all of this? I have an API that supports both XML and 
JSON. I personally prefer JSON. Most of my friends and colleagues prefer 
and use JSON.

Most of my customers use XML.

Thank $deity I actually write unit tests for each format.

-George

File under:
- statistics 101
- software development 101

On Aug 9, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Vishvananda Ishaya vishvana...@gmail.com 
wrote:


On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com 
wrote:

Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON?

The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them. Our 
devstack exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest has json 
clients but no xml clients[1]. I think this demonstrates that there just 
isn't a huge desire for xml. Users that I have chatted with just seem to 
care that the api works and that they they have good bindings.

I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm secretly 
hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work to maintain three APIs 
(we are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keep them all functioning well, 
so if people are happy without OpenStack XML I would be perfectly content 
to deprecate it.

Vish

[1] 
https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml

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Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support

2012-08-09 Thread Daryl Walleck
As part of my work on Tempest, I've created an alternate backend configuration 
to use XML requests/responses. This right now mostly covers Nova, but could 
easily be extended to test other projects as well. I hadn't pushed it yet 
because it seemed to be low priority, but I'd be more than glad to accelerate 
and get this committed.

Daryl

On Aug 9, 2012, at 8:14 PM, Doug Davis d...@us.ibm.commailto:d...@us.ibm.com
 wrote:


Situations like this are always interesting to watch.  :-)

On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then put up the 
resources to make it happen.
On the other hand, that doesn't mean that as a developer you get to ignore the 
bigger picture and only do 1/2 of the work because you don't care about the 
other 1/2.

Overall, I tend to agree with the attitude that as long as XML is officially 
supported then all code changes need to make sure they run through both the 
JSON and XML codepaths. And if this means twice the testcases then so be it.  
People committing code shouldn't have a choice in this - its either you do the 
full job or your code is rejected.

Having said that, it is a valid question to ask whether we want to continue to 
support both JSON and XML going forward.  But, until that decision is formally 
made letting 1/2 of the APIs atrophy makes the entire community look bad and 
therefore should not be allowed to happen.

My vote: from now on don't let any code change in unless if works for both.  I 
suspect we'll either see the XML side come up to speed really quickly or it'll 
force an ugly vote.  But either way, this needs to be resolved before the next 
release.

thanks
-Doug

STSM |  Standards Architect  |  IBM Software Group
(919) 254-6905  |  IBM 444-6905  |  d...@us.ibm.commailto:d...@us.ibm.com
The more I'm around some people, the more I like my dog.


George Reese george.re...@imaginary.commailto:george.re...@imaginary.com

08/09/2012 07:02 PM
Please respond to
OpenStack Development Mailing List 
openstack-...@lists.openstack.orgmailto:openstack-...@lists.openstack.org




To
OpenStack Development Mailing List 
openstack-...@lists.openstack.orgmailto:openstack-...@lists.openstack.org
cc
openstack@lists.launchpad.netmailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net 
\(openstack@lists.launchpad.netmailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net\) 
openstack@lists.launchpad.netmailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Subject
Re: [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML
Support







And this is why I go off on the developer-oriented mentality of the OpenStack 
community.

The fact that there is no one in the OpenStack developer community writing XML 
stuff is not a reflection of the fact that there's no huge desire for XML.

It's in the spec for a reason: BECAUSE ENTERPRISES USE XML HEAVILY

OpenStack developers aren't that audience. They use JSON.

That the project can get to this point and not have tests for these things 
shows a flaw in the development processes, not some grand illustration of 
supply and demand.

Do I really have to point out that if the spec calls for JSON and XML, you 
should bloody well write integration tests to check for JSON and XML?

You don't write whatever happens to please you.

You know how I know all of this? I have an API that supports both XML and JSON. 
I personally prefer JSON. Most of my friends and colleagues prefer and use JSON.

Most of my customers use XML.

Thank $deity I actually write unit tests for each format.

-George

File under:
- statistics 101
- software development 101

On Aug 9, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Vishvananda Ishaya 
vishvana...@gmail.commailto:vishvana...@gmail.com wrote:


On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese 
george.re...@imaginary.commailto:george.re...@imaginary.com wrote:

Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON?

The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them. Our devstack 
exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest has json clients but no xml 
clients[1]. I think this demonstrates that there just isn't a huge desire for 
xml. Users that I have chatted with just seem to care that the api works and 
that they they have good bindings.

I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm secretly 
hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work to maintain three APIs (we 
are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keep them all functioning well, so if 
people are happy without OpenStack XML I would be perfectly content to 
deprecate it.

Vish

[1] https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml

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t: @GeorgeReese   m: +1(207)956

Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support

2012-08-09 Thread George Reese
On Aug 9, 2012, at 8:14 PM, Doug Davis d...@us.ibm.com wrote:

 
 Situations like this are always interesting to watch.  :-) 
 
 On the one hand its open-source, so if you care about something then put up 
 the resources to make it happen. 

This attitude always bothers me. This isn't some Open Source labor of love. 
It's a commercial collaboration in which many of the contributors have a 
significant economic interest. 

To be more blunt: if I'm writing code, it's for enStratus.


 On the other hand, that doesn't mean that as a developer you get to ignore 
 the bigger picture and only do 1/2 of the work because you don't care about 
 the other 1/2. 
 
 Overall, I tend to agree with the attitude that as long as XML is officially 
 supported then all code changes need to make sure they run through both the 
 JSON and XML codepaths. And if this means twice the testcases then so be it.  
 People committing code shouldn't have a choice in this - its either you do 
 the full job or your code is rejected. 
 

+10

 Having said that, it is a valid question to ask whether we want to continue 
 to support both JSON and XML going forward.  But, until that decision is 
 formally made letting 1/2 of the APIs atrophy makes the entire community look 
 bad and therefore should not be allowed to happen.   
 

Actually, it's not a valid question. That ship has sailed. XML is part of the 
spec, and we're talking about Folsom not Bexar. The API is the heart of the 
ecosystem. You never, ever deprecate code unless there's some strong compelling 
reason like a significant security flaw that can be addressed only through 
incompatibility.

 My vote: from now on don't let any code change in unless if works for both.  
 I suspect we'll either see the XML side come up to speed really quickly or 
 it'll force an ugly vote.  But either way, this needs to be resolved before 
 the next release. 
 
 thanks
 -Doug
 
 STSM |  Standards Architect  |  IBM Software Group
 (919) 254-6905  |  IBM 444-6905  |  d...@us.ibm.com
 The more I'm around some people, the more I like my dog. 
 
 
 George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com
 08/09/2012 07:02 PM
 Please respond to
 OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.org
 
 To
 OpenStack Development Mailing List openstack-...@lists.openstack.org
 cc
 openstack@lists.launchpad.net \(openstack@lists.launchpad.net\) 
 openstack@lists.launchpad.net
 Subject
 Re: [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XMLSupport
 
 
 
 
 
 And this is why I go off on the developer-oriented mentality of the OpenStack 
 community. 
 
 The fact that there is no one in the OpenStack developer community writing 
 XML stuff is not a reflection of the fact that there's no huge desire for 
 XML. 
 
 It's in the spec for a reason: BECAUSE ENTERPRISES USE XML HEAVILY 
 
 OpenStack developers aren't that audience. They use JSON. 
 
 That the project can get to this point and not have tests for these things 
 shows a flaw in the development processes, not some grand illustration of 
 supply and demand. 
 
 Do I really have to point out that if the spec calls for JSON and XML, you 
 should bloody well write integration tests to check for JSON and XML? 
 
 You don't write whatever happens to please you. 
 
 You know how I know all of this? I have an API that supports both XML and 
 JSON. I personally prefer JSON. Most of my friends and colleagues prefer and 
 use JSON. 
 
 Most of my customers use XML. 
 
 Thank $deity I actually write unit tests for each format. 
 
 -George 
 
 File under: 
 - statistics 101 
 - software development 101 
 
 On Aug 9, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Vishvananda Ishaya vishvana...@gmail.com wrote: 
 
 
 On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:32 PM, George Reese george.re...@imaginary.com wrote: 
 
 Why aren't the integration tests both XML and JSON? 
 
 The simple answer is that no one has taken the time to write them. Our 
 devstack exercises use the python client bindings. Tempest has json clients 
 but no xml clients[1]. I think this demonstrates that there just isn't a huge 
 desire for xml. Users that I have chatted with just seem to care that the api 
 works and that they they have good bindings. 
 
 I am definitely willing to be proven wrong on this point, but I'm secretly 
 hoping everyone agrees with me. It is a lot of work to maintain three APIs 
 (we are still maintaining EC2 as well) and keep them all functioning well, so 
 if people are happy without OpenStack XML I would be perfectly content to 
 deprecate it. 
 
 Vish 
 
 [1] 
 https://github.com/openstack/tempest/tree/master/tempest/services/nova/xml 
 
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 t: @GeorgeReese   m: +1(207)956-0217   Skype: 
 nspollution

Re: [Openstack] [openstack-dev] [nova] Call for Help -- OpenStack API XML Support

2012-08-09 Thread Vishvananda Ishaya

On Aug 9, 2012, at 6:28 PM, Daryl Walleck daryl.wall...@rackspace.com wrote:

 As part of my work on Tempest, I've created an alternate backend 
 configuration to use XML requests/responses. This right now mostly covers 
 Nova, but could easily be extended to test other projects as well. I hadn't 
 pushed it yet because it seemed to be low priority, but I'd be more than glad 
 to accelerate and get this committed.
 
 Daryl

That is awesome news Daryl! Yes, please get this up as soon as possible so 
others can help. There definitely seems to be enough interest to at least have 
a go at cleaning up XML support. It would be great to know where the gaps are.

Vish


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