Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Thomas Goirand]

On 09/14/2018 09:52 PM, Zhipeng Huang wrote:
> This is a joint question from mnaser and me :)
> 
> For the candidates who are running for tc seats, please reply to this
> email to indicate if you are open to use certain social media app in
> certain region (like Wechat in China

Even if I do use WeChat because of some of my Chinese friends that know
only that, I am strongly against using such a proprietary network,
especially for open development.

It's ok-ish if some Chinese want to create local community in WeChat.
It's not if the whole project vouches for this type of networks.

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Zhipeng Huang's message of 2018-09-14 13:52:50 -0600:
> This is a joint question from mnaser and me :)
> 
> For the candidates who are running for tc seats, please reply to this email
> to indicate if you are open to use certain social media app in certain
> region (like Wechat in China, Line in Japan, etc.), in order to reach out
> to the OpenStack developers in that region and help them to connect to the
> upstream community as well as answering questions or other activities that
> will help. (sorry for the long sentence ... )
> 
> Rico and I already sign up for Wechat communication for sure :)
> 
> -- 
> Zhipeng (Howard) Huang

[I replied on the governance resolution
https://review.openstack.org/#/c/602697/, but I will copy my reply
here since not everyone is following the comments there.]

While I support the end result this resolution is trying to achieve,
I don't think a TC resolution is the right way to go about it. The
existing governance resolutions are primarily used to document
decisions where there was a disagreement or solutions to issues
that need to be formally addressed. I don't think either criteria
applies in this case.

No member of our community needs permission to use social media,
so we don't need to document an opinion about that.

Formally encouraging members of our community, whether they are on
the TC or not, to reach out to other members also feels unnecessary.
We proudly declare our community to be open to anyone who wants to
participate in https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/opens.html
and many members of our community do engage in the sort of outreach
that is described in this resolution.

If there is a particular area of the community not being heard,
then we should work to understand why that is happening. If the
cause is really that too few of the TC members are signed up for
the right social media tools, then I think we have a much more
fundamental issue to address in the expectations of the community
and how the TC communicates as a group.

I believe a better approach to achieve the outcome this resolution
is trying to implement would be to organize some of the folks who
have already indicated that they are willing to help with outreach
and to work together to bring anyone who wants to participate in
the community into the existing communication channels (especially
the mailing list), so that we can all collaborate there together.
There was support for an approach like that in the room during the
meeting last week.

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Samuel Cassiba]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:34 AM Jeremy Stanley  wrote:
>
> On 2018-09-18 10:23:33 +0800 (+0800), Zhipeng Huang wrote:
> [...]
> > Jeremy, what I'm saying here, and also addressed in comments with
> > the related resolution patch, is that personality reasons are the
> > ones that we have to respect and no form of governance change
> > could help solve the problem. However other than that, we could
> > always find a way to address the issue for remedies, if we don't
> > have a good answer now maybe we will have sometime later.
> >
> > Preference on  social tooling is something that the technical
> > committee is able to address, with isolation of usage of
> > proprietary tools for certain scenario and also strict policy on
> > enforcing the open source communication solutions we have today as
> > the central ones the community will continue to use. This is not
> > an unsolvable problem given that we have a technical committee,
> > but personality issues are, no matter what governance instrument
> > we have.
>
> Once again, I think we're talking past each other. I was replying to
> (and quoted from) the provided sample rejection letter. First I
> wanted to point out that I had already rejected the premise earlier
> on this thread even though it was suggested that no rejection had
> yet been provided. Second, the sample letter seemed to indicate what
> I believe to be a fundamental misunderstanding among those pushing
> this issue: the repeated attempts I've seen so far to paint a
> disinterest in participating in wechat interactions as mere
> "personal preference," and the idea that those who hold this
> "preference" are somehow weak or afraid of the people they'll
> encounter there.
>
> For me, it borders on insulting. I (and I believe many others) have
> strong ideological opposition to participating in these forums, not
> mere personal preferences.
> --
> Jeremy Stanley
>

It is incredibly difficult to convey intent over primarily text-based
mediums, of which I primarily interact with individuals I've never
seen in-person. What is my ideological principle, is someone's
personal preference, isn't even a thought to yet another.

I work within other FLOSS projects outside of OpenStack. With some, my
primary interactions take place over Slack, because they made the
conscious choice to hoist their user community to a free instance,
nominating people to an ambassador role for keeping their message
intact on IRC. Other times, it's over GitHub, where the whole
interaction takes place within the one platform.

Within OpenStack, some people I've only ever worked with through code
reviews or bug reports. Others, IRC or email. People are going to
gravitate toward what makes sense for them, but that's where the lines
between ideology and preference blur.

Agreeing to keep the important lines of communication to a certain
medium is the preference here, but it's also the ideological belief.
The debates ongoing are not Wechat versus Twitter versus IRC versus
Slack. It's over keeping the intent of being open, which is defined in
the very namesake.

Many moons ago, Chef OpenStack was advised to actively eschew video
meetings before being approved to being an OpenStack project under the
Big Tent experiment during the rise of the hype. This happened,
despite the active actions for openness and inclusiveness into the
weekly video meetings, because there was no text record to reference.
This, in turn, resulted in fewer and fewer developers being able to
justify having an hour a week to 'mess around' on IRC, and thus the
hastening of the deflationary period. With a video running, it was more
reasonable to being able to justify an hour to a conference room or an
office to further the intent of openness in the community.

I directly see the benefit in having a means to reach the greater
community (hi! o/) but I do not directly see the correlation in
defining a given social platform as being The Platform for Relevant
Communications beyond email or code review. Email and code review are,
by far, the most accessible points around the globe.

For the Horde^Wcode,

Samuel Cassiba (scas)

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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2018-09-18 10:23:33 +0800 (+0800), Zhipeng Huang wrote:
[...]
> Jeremy, what I'm saying here, and also addressed in comments with
> the related resolution patch, is that personality reasons are the
> ones that we have to respect and no form of governance change
> could help solve the problem. However other than that, we could
> always find a way to address the issue for remedies, if we don't
> have a good answer now maybe we will have sometime later.
> 
> Preference on  social tooling is something that the technical
> committee is able to address, with isolation of usage of
> proprietary tools for certain scenario and also strict policy on
> enforcing the open source communication solutions we have today as
> the central ones the community will continue to use. This is not
> an unsolvable problem given that we have a technical committee,
> but personality issues are, no matter what governance instrument
> we have.

Once again, I think we're talking past each other. I was replying to
(and quoted from) the provided sample rejection letter. First I
wanted to point out that I had already rejected the premise earlier
on this thread even though it was suggested that no rejection had
yet been provided. Second, the sample letter seemed to indicate what
I believe to be a fundamental misunderstanding among those pushing
this issue: the repeated attempts I've seen so far to paint a
disinterest in participating in wechat interactions as mere
"personal preference," and the idea that those who hold this
"preference" are somehow weak or afraid of the people they'll
encounter there.

For me, it borders on insulting. I (and I believe many others) have
strong ideological opposition to participating in these forums, not
mere personal preferences.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Zhipeng Huang]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:06 AM Jeremy Stanley  wrote:

> This seems to completely miss the reasons I personally reject such
> platforms. I don't use proprietary tools or services for interacting
> with our community, I avoid relying on products from companies which
> attempt to track or share my location and activities for their own
> profit or to report them to various government agencies, and I have
> no interest in owning a "smart phone" (which some services such as
> wechat outright require). At least for me, the example rejection you
> proposed above is a miss on all counts...
>
> I am plenty capable of coping with any of the "personalities or
> social characters" I'm likely to encounter on those services (I'm
> quite certain IRC is where you're going to find some of the worst
> and *most* intolerable characters of any discussion medium). I also
> am accustomed to providing a near instant response to urgent
> requests in IRC, and at the same time don't feel particularly
> "pressured" to do so. And I _do_ use some social media: both IRC and
> mailing lists are in fact legitimate examples of social media. I'm
> really not even opposed to using other forms as long as they rely on
> open protocols and both the client _and_ server software are
> available under a free/libre open source license.
> --
> Jeremy Stanley
>

Jeremy, what I'm saying here, and also addressed in comments with the
related resolution patch, is that personality reasons are the ones that we
have to respect and no form of governance change could help solve the
problem. However other than that, we could always find a way to address the
issue for remedies, if we don't have a good answer now maybe we will have
sometime later.

Preference on  social tooling is something that the technical committee is
able to address, with isolation of usage of proprietary tools for certain
scenario and also strict policy on enforcing the open source communication
solutions we have today as the central ones the community will continue to
use. This is not an unsolvable problem given that we have a technical
committee, but personality issues are, no matter what governance instrument
we have.


-- 
Zhipeng (Howard) Huang

Standard Engineer
IT Standard & Patent/IT Product Line
Huawei Technologies Co,. Ltd
Email: huangzhip...@huawei.com
Office: Huawei Industrial Base, Longgang, Shenzhen

(Previous)
Research Assistant
Mobile Ad-Hoc Network Lab, Calit2
University of California, Irvine
Email: zhipe...@uci.edu
Office: Calit2 Building Room 2402

OpenStack, OPNFV, OpenDaylight, OpenCompute Aficionado
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2018-09-18 07:27:26 +0800 (+0800), Zhipeng Huang wrote:
[...]
> On another side note, there has not been a (maybe I missed) good
> "no" vote message I was looking for.
> 
> A good quality "no" message could something like this in my
> opinion (and this is just one of many possibilities):
> 
> "Thanks for invitation but no I would not like to use social media
> apps other than IRC. General social media apps are open to a more
> variety of people than in IRC channels and there are personalities
> or social characters that I found myself just cannot cope with.
> Moreover social media apps demands instant response, or at least
> has the expectation for one, in its nature and it would make me
> feel pressured all the time. So no thank you I would not use
> social media in any form, however if you do have good technical
> questions from the social apps, please feel free to relay to me
> and I'm glad to help when I have the bandwidth"

This seems to completely miss the reasons I personally reject such
platforms. I don't use proprietary tools or services for interacting
with our community, I avoid relying on products from companies which
attempt to track or share my location and activities for their own
profit or to report them to various government agencies, and I have
no interest in owning a "smart phone" (which some services such as
wechat outright require). At least for me, the example rejection you
proposed above is a miss on all counts...

I am plenty capable of coping with any of the "personalities or
social characters" I'm likely to encounter on those services (I'm
quite certain IRC is where you're going to find some of the worst
and *most* intolerable characters of any discussion medium). I also
am accustomed to providing a near instant response to urgent
requests in IRC, and at the same time don't feel particularly
"pressured" to do so. And I _do_ use some social media: both IRC and
mailing lists are in fact legitimate examples of social media. I'm
really not even opposed to using other forms as long as they rely on
open protocols and both the client _and_ server software are
available under a free/libre open source license.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Zhipeng Huang]

Thanks Anne :)

On another side note, there has not been a (maybe I missed) good "no" vote
message I was looking for.

A good quality "no" message could something like this in my opinion (and
this is just one of many possibilities):

"Thanks for invitation but no I would not like to use social media apps
other than IRC. General social media apps are open to a more variety of
people than in IRC channels and there are personalities or social
characters that I found myself just cannot cope with. Moreover social media
apps demands instant response, or at least has the expectation for one, in
its nature and it would make me feel pressured all the time. So no thank
you I would not use social media in any form, however if you do have good
technical questions from the social apps, please feel free to relay to me
and I'm glad to help when I have the bandwidth"




On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 7:06 AM Anne Bertucio  wrote:

> I though I remember someone (annabelleB?) saying there were known issues
> (technical or otherwise) regarding the official channels spun up by the
> Foundation.
>
>
> Two separate issues that perhaps got mashed together :)
>
> Unofficial WeChat channels are limited to ~500 participants and are
> invite-only. That makes a few challenges for a community of our size (much
> more than 500!). Official subscription channels don’t have these
> limitations, but there’s a lengthy process to get one. It’s currently in
> progress (unfortunately I don’t think we have an ETA beyond “in progress”
> at this point—more than one month; less than six months?).
>
>
> Anne Bertucio
> OpenStack Foundation
> a...@openstack.org | irc: annabelleB
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 17, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Lance Bragstad  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 1:42 PM Mohammed Naser 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On that note, is there any way to get an 'invite' onto those channels?
>>
>> Any information about the foundation side of things about the
>> 'official' channels?
>>
>
> I actually have a question about this as well. During the TC discussion
> last Friday there was representation from the Foundation in the room. I
> though I remember someone (annabelleB?) saying there were known issues
> (technical or otherwise) regarding the official channels spun up by the
> Foundation.
>
> Does anyone know what issues were being referred to here?
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mohammed
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:28 PM Samuel Cassiba  wrote:
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 6:58 AM Sylvain Bauza 
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:32, Jeremy Stanley  a
>> écrit :
>> > >>
>> > >> On 2018-09-16 14:14:41 +0200 (+0200), Jean-philippe Evrard wrote:
>> > >> [...]
>> > >> > - What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind
>> the
>> > >> > language barrier)?
>> > >>
>> > >> As I understand it, the suggestion is that mere presence of project
>> > >> leadership in venues where this emerging subset of our community
>> > >> gathers would provide a strong signal that we support them and care
>> > >> about their experience with the software.
>> > >>
>> > >> > - Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with
>> > >> > existing initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why
>> > >> > aren't these relevant?
>> > >> [...]
>> > >>
>> > >> It seems like there are at least couple of factors at play here:
>> > >> first the significant number of users and contributors within
>> > >> mainland China compared to other regions (analysis suggests there
>> > >> were nearly as many contributors to the Rocky release from China as
>> > >> the USA), but second there may be facets of Chinese culture which
>> > >> make this sort of demonstrative presence a much stronger signal than
>> > >> it would be in other cultures.
>> > >>
>> > >> > - Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I
>> > >> > understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails
>> > >> > would be fine, and the lowest common denominator).
>> > >>
>> > >> Someone in the TC room (forgive me, I don't recall who now, maybe
>> > >> Rico?) asserted that Chinese contributors generally only read the
>> > >> first message in any given thread (perhaps just looking for possible
>> > >> announcements?) and that if they _do_ attempt to read through some
>> > >> of the longer threads they don't participate in them because the
>> > >> discussion is presumed to be over and decisions final by the time
>> > >> they "reach the end" (I guess not realizing that it's perfectly fine
>> > >> to reply to a month-old discussion and try to help alter course on
>> > >> things if you have an actual concern?).
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > While I understand the technical issues that could be due using IRC
>> in China, I still don't get why opening the gates and saying WeChat being
>> yet another official channel would prevent our community from fragmenting.
>> > >
>> > > Truly the usage of IRC is certainly questionable, but if we have
>> multiple ways to discuss, I just 

Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Davanum Srinivas]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 7:06 PM Anne Bertucio  wrote:

> I though I remember someone (annabelleB?) saying there were known issues
> (technical or otherwise) regarding the official channels spun up by the
> Foundation.
>
>
> Two separate issues that perhaps got mashed together :)
>
> Unofficial WeChat channels are limited to ~500 participants and are
> invite-only. That makes a few challenges for a community of our size (much
> more than 500!). Official subscription channels don’t have these
> limitations, but there’s a lengthy process to get one. It’s currently in
> progress (unfortunately I don’t think we have an ETA beyond “in progress”
> at this point—more than one month; less than six months?).
>

Weird! Isn't Tencent a platinum sponsor?  Can we please ask them for help
move this forward?

(cc'ing Ruan He)

-- Dims


>
> Anne Bertucio
> OpenStack Foundation
> a...@openstack.org | irc: annabelleB
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 17, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Lance Bragstad  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 1:42 PM Mohammed Naser 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On that note, is there any way to get an 'invite' onto those channels?
>>
>> Any information about the foundation side of things about the
>> 'official' channels?
>>
>
> I actually have a question about this as well. During the TC discussion
> last Friday there was representation from the Foundation in the room. I
> though I remember someone (annabelleB?) saying there were known issues
> (technical or otherwise) regarding the official channels spun up by the
> Foundation.
>
> Does anyone know what issues were being referred to here?
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mohammed
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:28 PM Samuel Cassiba  wrote:
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 6:58 AM Sylvain Bauza 
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:32, Jeremy Stanley  a
>> écrit :
>> > >>
>> > >> On 2018-09-16 14:14:41 +0200 (+0200), Jean-philippe Evrard wrote:
>> > >> [...]
>> > >> > - What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind
>> the
>> > >> > language barrier)?
>> > >>
>> > >> As I understand it, the suggestion is that mere presence of project
>> > >> leadership in venues where this emerging subset of our community
>> > >> gathers would provide a strong signal that we support them and care
>> > >> about their experience with the software.
>> > >>
>> > >> > - Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with
>> > >> > existing initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why
>> > >> > aren't these relevant?
>> > >> [...]
>> > >>
>> > >> It seems like there are at least couple of factors at play here:
>> > >> first the significant number of users and contributors within
>> > >> mainland China compared to other regions (analysis suggests there
>> > >> were nearly as many contributors to the Rocky release from China as
>> > >> the USA), but second there may be facets of Chinese culture which
>> > >> make this sort of demonstrative presence a much stronger signal than
>> > >> it would be in other cultures.
>> > >>
>> > >> > - Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I
>> > >> > understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails
>> > >> > would be fine, and the lowest common denominator).
>> > >>
>> > >> Someone in the TC room (forgive me, I don't recall who now, maybe
>> > >> Rico?) asserted that Chinese contributors generally only read the
>> > >> first message in any given thread (perhaps just looking for possible
>> > >> announcements?) and that if they _do_ attempt to read through some
>> > >> of the longer threads they don't participate in them because the
>> > >> discussion is presumed to be over and decisions final by the time
>> > >> they "reach the end" (I guess not realizing that it's perfectly fine
>> > >> to reply to a month-old discussion and try to help alter course on
>> > >> things if you have an actual concern?).
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > While I understand the technical issues that could be due using IRC
>> in China, I still don't get why opening the gates and saying WeChat being
>> yet another official channel would prevent our community from fragmenting.
>> > >
>> > > Truly the usage of IRC is certainly questionable, but if we have
>> multiple ways to discuss, I just doubt we could prevent us to silo
>> ourselves between our personal usages.
>> > > Either we consider the new channels as being only for southbound
>> communication, or we envisage the possibility, as a community, to migrate
>> from IRC to elsewhere (I'm particulary not fan of the latter so I would
>> challenge this but I can understand the reasons)
>> > >
>> > > -Sylvain
>> > >
>> >
>> > Objectively, I don't see a way to endorse something other than IRC
>> > without some form of collective presence on more than just Wechat to
>> > keep the message intact. IRC is the official messaging platform, for
>> > whatever that's worth these days. However, at present, it makes less
>> > and less sense to explicitly eschew other outlets in favor. 

Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Anne Bertucio]

> I though I remember someone (annabelleB?) saying there were known issues 
> (technical or otherwise) regarding the official channels spun up by the 
> Foundation.

Two separate issues that perhaps got mashed together :) 

Unofficial WeChat channels are limited to ~500 participants and are 
invite-only. That makes a few challenges for a community of our size (much more 
than 500!). Official subscription channels don’t have these limitations, but 
there’s a lengthy process to get one. It’s currently in progress (unfortunately 
I don’t think we have an ETA beyond “in progress” at this point—more than one 
month; less than six months?).

  
Anne Bertucio
OpenStack Foundation
a...@openstack.org | irc: annabelleB





> On Sep 17, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Lance Bragstad  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 1:42 PM Mohammed Naser  > wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On that note, is there any way to get an 'invite' onto those channels?
> 
> Any information about the foundation side of things about the
> 'official' channels?
> 
> I actually have a question about this as well. During the TC discussion last 
> Friday there was representation from the Foundation in the room. I though I 
> remember someone (annabelleB?) saying there were known issues (technical or 
> otherwise) regarding the official channels spun up by the Foundation.
> 
> Does anyone know what issues were being referred to here?
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> Mohammed
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:28 PM Samuel Cassiba  > wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 6:58 AM Sylvain Bauza  > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:32, Jeremy Stanley  > > > a écrit :
> > >>
> > >> On 2018-09-16 14:14:41 +0200 (+0200), Jean-philippe Evrard wrote:
> > >> [...]
> > >> > - What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind the
> > >> > language barrier)?
> > >>
> > >> As I understand it, the suggestion is that mere presence of project
> > >> leadership in venues where this emerging subset of our community
> > >> gathers would provide a strong signal that we support them and care
> > >> about their experience with the software.
> > >>
> > >> > - Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with
> > >> > existing initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why
> > >> > aren't these relevant?
> > >> [...]
> > >>
> > >> It seems like there are at least couple of factors at play here:
> > >> first the significant number of users and contributors within
> > >> mainland China compared to other regions (analysis suggests there
> > >> were nearly as many contributors to the Rocky release from China as
> > >> the USA), but second there may be facets of Chinese culture which
> > >> make this sort of demonstrative presence a much stronger signal than
> > >> it would be in other cultures.
> > >>
> > >> > - Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I
> > >> > understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails
> > >> > would be fine, and the lowest common denominator).
> > >>
> > >> Someone in the TC room (forgive me, I don't recall who now, maybe
> > >> Rico?) asserted that Chinese contributors generally only read the
> > >> first message in any given thread (perhaps just looking for possible
> > >> announcements?) and that if they _do_ attempt to read through some
> > >> of the longer threads they don't participate in them because the
> > >> discussion is presumed to be over and decisions final by the time
> > >> they "reach the end" (I guess not realizing that it's perfectly fine
> > >> to reply to a month-old discussion and try to help alter course on
> > >> things if you have an actual concern?).
> > >>
> > >
> > > While I understand the technical issues that could be due using IRC in 
> > > China, I still don't get why opening the gates and saying WeChat being 
> > > yet another official channel would prevent our community from fragmenting.
> > >
> > > Truly the usage of IRC is certainly questionable, but if we have multiple 
> > > ways to discuss, I just doubt we could prevent us to silo ourselves 
> > > between our personal usages.
> > > Either we consider the new channels as being only for southbound 
> > > communication, or we envisage the possibility, as a community, to migrate 
> > > from IRC to elsewhere (I'm particulary not fan of the latter so I would 
> > > challenge this but I can understand the reasons)
> > >
> > > -Sylvain
> > >
> >
> > Objectively, I don't see a way to endorse something other than IRC
> > without some form of collective presence on more than just Wechat to
> > keep the message intact. IRC is the official messaging platform, for
> > whatever that's worth these days. However, at present, it makes less
> > and less sense to explicitly eschew other outlets in favor. From a
> > Chef OpenStack perspective, the common medium is, perhaps not
> > unsurprising, code review. Everything else 

Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Zhipeng Huang]

Would like to see some updates on the foundation's official wechat group up
:)

On the other note, I would like to point out that this email is merely
asking who would be interested. The question about "dividing teams" and
such is addressed in https://review.openstack.org/602697 .


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:57 AM Lance Bragstad  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 1:42 PM Mohammed Naser 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On that note, is there any way to get an 'invite' onto those channels?
>>
>> Any information about the foundation side of things about the
>> 'official' channels?
>>
>
> I actually have a question about this as well. During the TC discussion
> last Friday there was representation from the Foundation in the room. I
> though I remember someone (annabelleB?) saying there were known issues
> (technical or otherwise) regarding the official channels spun up by the
> Foundation.
>
> Does anyone know what issues were being referred to here?
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mohammed
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:28 PM Samuel Cassiba  wrote:
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 6:58 AM Sylvain Bauza 
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:32, Jeremy Stanley  a
>> écrit :
>> > >>
>> > >> On 2018-09-16 14:14:41 +0200 (+0200), Jean-philippe Evrard wrote:
>> > >> [...]
>> > >> > - What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind
>> the
>> > >> > language barrier)?
>> > >>
>> > >> As I understand it, the suggestion is that mere presence of project
>> > >> leadership in venues where this emerging subset of our community
>> > >> gathers would provide a strong signal that we support them and care
>> > >> about their experience with the software.
>> > >>
>> > >> > - Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with
>> > >> > existing initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why
>> > >> > aren't these relevant?
>> > >> [...]
>> > >>
>> > >> It seems like there are at least couple of factors at play here:
>> > >> first the significant number of users and contributors within
>> > >> mainland China compared to other regions (analysis suggests there
>> > >> were nearly as many contributors to the Rocky release from China as
>> > >> the USA), but second there may be facets of Chinese culture which
>> > >> make this sort of demonstrative presence a much stronger signal than
>> > >> it would be in other cultures.
>> > >>
>> > >> > - Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I
>> > >> > understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails
>> > >> > would be fine, and the lowest common denominator).
>> > >>
>> > >> Someone in the TC room (forgive me, I don't recall who now, maybe
>> > >> Rico?) asserted that Chinese contributors generally only read the
>> > >> first message in any given thread (perhaps just looking for possible
>> > >> announcements?) and that if they _do_ attempt to read through some
>> > >> of the longer threads they don't participate in them because the
>> > >> discussion is presumed to be over and decisions final by the time
>> > >> they "reach the end" (I guess not realizing that it's perfectly fine
>> > >> to reply to a month-old discussion and try to help alter course on
>> > >> things if you have an actual concern?).
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > While I understand the technical issues that could be due using IRC
>> in China, I still don't get why opening the gates and saying WeChat being
>> yet another official channel would prevent our community from fragmenting.
>> > >
>> > > Truly the usage of IRC is certainly questionable, but if we have
>> multiple ways to discuss, I just doubt we could prevent us to silo
>> ourselves between our personal usages.
>> > > Either we consider the new channels as being only for southbound
>> communication, or we envisage the possibility, as a community, to migrate
>> from IRC to elsewhere (I'm particulary not fan of the latter so I would
>> challenge this but I can understand the reasons)
>> > >
>> > > -Sylvain
>> > >
>> >
>> > Objectively, I don't see a way to endorse something other than IRC
>> > without some form of collective presence on more than just Wechat to
>> > keep the message intact. IRC is the official messaging platform, for
>> > whatever that's worth these days. However, at present, it makes less
>> > and less sense to explicitly eschew other outlets in favor. From a
>> > Chef OpenStack perspective, the common medium is, perhaps not
>> > unsurprising, code review. Everything else evolved over time to be
>> > southbound paths to the code, including most of the conversation
>> > taking place there as opposed to IRC.
>> >
>> > The continuation of this thread only confirms that there is already
>> > fragmentation in the community, and that people on each side of the
>> > void genuinely want to close that gap. At this point, the thing to do
>> > is prevent further fragmentation of the intent. It is, however, far
>> > easier to bikeshed over which platform of choice.
>> >
>> > At present, it 

Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Lance Bragstad]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 1:42 PM Mohammed Naser  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On that note, is there any way to get an 'invite' onto those channels?
>
> Any information about the foundation side of things about the
> 'official' channels?
>

I actually have a question about this as well. During the TC discussion
last Friday there was representation from the Foundation in the room. I
though I remember someone (annabelleB?) saying there were known issues
(technical or otherwise) regarding the official channels spun up by the
Foundation.

Does anyone know what issues were being referred to here?


>
> Thanks,
> Mohammed
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:28 PM Samuel Cassiba  wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 6:58 AM Sylvain Bauza 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:32, Jeremy Stanley  a
> écrit :
> > >>
> > >> On 2018-09-16 14:14:41 +0200 (+0200), Jean-philippe Evrard wrote:
> > >> [...]
> > >> > - What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind the
> > >> > language barrier)?
> > >>
> > >> As I understand it, the suggestion is that mere presence of project
> > >> leadership in venues where this emerging subset of our community
> > >> gathers would provide a strong signal that we support them and care
> > >> about their experience with the software.
> > >>
> > >> > - Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with
> > >> > existing initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why
> > >> > aren't these relevant?
> > >> [...]
> > >>
> > >> It seems like there are at least couple of factors at play here:
> > >> first the significant number of users and contributors within
> > >> mainland China compared to other regions (analysis suggests there
> > >> were nearly as many contributors to the Rocky release from China as
> > >> the USA), but second there may be facets of Chinese culture which
> > >> make this sort of demonstrative presence a much stronger signal than
> > >> it would be in other cultures.
> > >>
> > >> > - Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I
> > >> > understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails
> > >> > would be fine, and the lowest common denominator).
> > >>
> > >> Someone in the TC room (forgive me, I don't recall who now, maybe
> > >> Rico?) asserted that Chinese contributors generally only read the
> > >> first message in any given thread (perhaps just looking for possible
> > >> announcements?) and that if they _do_ attempt to read through some
> > >> of the longer threads they don't participate in them because the
> > >> discussion is presumed to be over and decisions final by the time
> > >> they "reach the end" (I guess not realizing that it's perfectly fine
> > >> to reply to a month-old discussion and try to help alter course on
> > >> things if you have an actual concern?).
> > >>
> > >
> > > While I understand the technical issues that could be due using IRC in
> China, I still don't get why opening the gates and saying WeChat being yet
> another official channel would prevent our community from fragmenting.
> > >
> > > Truly the usage of IRC is certainly questionable, but if we have
> multiple ways to discuss, I just doubt we could prevent us to silo
> ourselves between our personal usages.
> > > Either we consider the new channels as being only for southbound
> communication, or we envisage the possibility, as a community, to migrate
> from IRC to elsewhere (I'm particulary not fan of the latter so I would
> challenge this but I can understand the reasons)
> > >
> > > -Sylvain
> > >
> >
> > Objectively, I don't see a way to endorse something other than IRC
> > without some form of collective presence on more than just Wechat to
> > keep the message intact. IRC is the official messaging platform, for
> > whatever that's worth these days. However, at present, it makes less
> > and less sense to explicitly eschew other outlets in favor. From a
> > Chef OpenStack perspective, the common medium is, perhaps not
> > unsurprising, code review. Everything else evolved over time to be
> > southbound paths to the code, including most of the conversation
> > taking place there as opposed to IRC.
> >
> > The continuation of this thread only confirms that there is already
> > fragmentation in the community, and that people on each side of the
> > void genuinely want to close that gap. At this point, the thing to do
> > is prevent further fragmentation of the intent. It is, however, far
> > easier to bikeshed over which platform of choice.
> >
> > At present, it seems a collective presence is forming ad hoc,
> > regardless of any such resolution. With some additional coordination
> > and planning, I think that there could be something that could scale
> > beyond one or two outlets.
> >
> > Best,
> > Samuel
> >
> >
> __
> > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> > Unsubscribe:
> 

Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Mohammed Naser]

Hi,

On that note, is there any way to get an 'invite' onto those channels?

Any information about the foundation side of things about the
'official' channels?

Thanks,
Mohammed
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:28 PM Samuel Cassiba  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 6:58 AM Sylvain Bauza  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:32, Jeremy Stanley  a écrit :
> >>
> >> On 2018-09-16 14:14:41 +0200 (+0200), Jean-philippe Evrard wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> > - What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind the
> >> > language barrier)?
> >>
> >> As I understand it, the suggestion is that mere presence of project
> >> leadership in venues where this emerging subset of our community
> >> gathers would provide a strong signal that we support them and care
> >> about their experience with the software.
> >>
> >> > - Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with
> >> > existing initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why
> >> > aren't these relevant?
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> It seems like there are at least couple of factors at play here:
> >> first the significant number of users and contributors within
> >> mainland China compared to other regions (analysis suggests there
> >> were nearly as many contributors to the Rocky release from China as
> >> the USA), but second there may be facets of Chinese culture which
> >> make this sort of demonstrative presence a much stronger signal than
> >> it would be in other cultures.
> >>
> >> > - Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I
> >> > understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails
> >> > would be fine, and the lowest common denominator).
> >>
> >> Someone in the TC room (forgive me, I don't recall who now, maybe
> >> Rico?) asserted that Chinese contributors generally only read the
> >> first message in any given thread (perhaps just looking for possible
> >> announcements?) and that if they _do_ attempt to read through some
> >> of the longer threads they don't participate in them because the
> >> discussion is presumed to be over and decisions final by the time
> >> they "reach the end" (I guess not realizing that it's perfectly fine
> >> to reply to a month-old discussion and try to help alter course on
> >> things if you have an actual concern?).
> >>
> >
> > While I understand the technical issues that could be due using IRC in 
> > China, I still don't get why opening the gates and saying WeChat being yet 
> > another official channel would prevent our community from fragmenting.
> >
> > Truly the usage of IRC is certainly questionable, but if we have multiple 
> > ways to discuss, I just doubt we could prevent us to silo ourselves between 
> > our personal usages.
> > Either we consider the new channels as being only for southbound 
> > communication, or we envisage the possibility, as a community, to migrate 
> > from IRC to elsewhere (I'm particulary not fan of the latter so I would 
> > challenge this but I can understand the reasons)
> >
> > -Sylvain
> >
>
> Objectively, I don't see a way to endorse something other than IRC
> without some form of collective presence on more than just Wechat to
> keep the message intact. IRC is the official messaging platform, for
> whatever that's worth these days. However, at present, it makes less
> and less sense to explicitly eschew other outlets in favor. From a
> Chef OpenStack perspective, the common medium is, perhaps not
> unsurprising, code review. Everything else evolved over time to be
> southbound paths to the code, including most of the conversation
> taking place there as opposed to IRC.
>
> The continuation of this thread only confirms that there is already
> fragmentation in the community, and that people on each side of the
> void genuinely want to close that gap. At this point, the thing to do
> is prevent further fragmentation of the intent. It is, however, far
> easier to bikeshed over which platform of choice.
>
> At present, it seems a collective presence is forming ad hoc,
> regardless of any such resolution. With some additional coordination
> and planning, I think that there could be something that could scale
> beyond one or two outlets.
>
> Best,
> Samuel
>
> __
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev



-- 
Mohammed Naser — vexxhost
-
D. 514-316-8872
D. 800-910-1726 ext. 200
E. mna...@vexxhost.com
W. http://vexxhost.com

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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Samuel Cassiba]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 6:58 AM Sylvain Bauza  wrote:
>
>
>
> Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:32, Jeremy Stanley  a écrit :
>>
>> On 2018-09-16 14:14:41 +0200 (+0200), Jean-philippe Evrard wrote:
>> [...]
>> > - What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind the
>> > language barrier)?
>>
>> As I understand it, the suggestion is that mere presence of project
>> leadership in venues where this emerging subset of our community
>> gathers would provide a strong signal that we support them and care
>> about their experience with the software.
>>
>> > - Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with
>> > existing initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why
>> > aren't these relevant?
>> [...]
>>
>> It seems like there are at least couple of factors at play here:
>> first the significant number of users and contributors within
>> mainland China compared to other regions (analysis suggests there
>> were nearly as many contributors to the Rocky release from China as
>> the USA), but second there may be facets of Chinese culture which
>> make this sort of demonstrative presence a much stronger signal than
>> it would be in other cultures.
>>
>> > - Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I
>> > understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails
>> > would be fine, and the lowest common denominator).
>>
>> Someone in the TC room (forgive me, I don't recall who now, maybe
>> Rico?) asserted that Chinese contributors generally only read the
>> first message in any given thread (perhaps just looking for possible
>> announcements?) and that if they _do_ attempt to read through some
>> of the longer threads they don't participate in them because the
>> discussion is presumed to be over and decisions final by the time
>> they "reach the end" (I guess not realizing that it's perfectly fine
>> to reply to a month-old discussion and try to help alter course on
>> things if you have an actual concern?).
>>
>
> While I understand the technical issues that could be due using IRC in China, 
> I still don't get why opening the gates and saying WeChat being yet another 
> official channel would prevent our community from fragmenting.
>
> Truly the usage of IRC is certainly questionable, but if we have multiple 
> ways to discuss, I just doubt we could prevent us to silo ourselves between 
> our personal usages.
> Either we consider the new channels as being only for southbound 
> communication, or we envisage the possibility, as a community, to migrate 
> from IRC to elsewhere (I'm particulary not fan of the latter so I would 
> challenge this but I can understand the reasons)
>
> -Sylvain
>

Objectively, I don't see a way to endorse something other than IRC
without some form of collective presence on more than just Wechat to
keep the message intact. IRC is the official messaging platform, for
whatever that's worth these days. However, at present, it makes less
and less sense to explicitly eschew other outlets in favor. From a
Chef OpenStack perspective, the common medium is, perhaps not
unsurprising, code review. Everything else evolved over time to be
southbound paths to the code, including most of the conversation
taking place there as opposed to IRC.

The continuation of this thread only confirms that there is already
fragmentation in the community, and that people on each side of the
void genuinely want to close that gap. At this point, the thing to do
is prevent further fragmentation of the intent. It is, however, far
easier to bikeshed over which platform of choice.

At present, it seems a collective presence is forming ad hoc,
regardless of any such resolution. With some additional coordination
and planning, I think that there could be something that could scale
beyond one or two outlets.

Best,
Samuel

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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Sylvain Bauza]

Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:32, Jeremy Stanley  a écrit :

> On 2018-09-16 14:14:41 +0200 (+0200), Jean-philippe Evrard wrote:
> [...]
> > - What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind the
> > language barrier)?
>
> As I understand it, the suggestion is that mere presence of project
> leadership in venues where this emerging subset of our community
> gathers would provide a strong signal that we support them and care
> about their experience with the software.
>
> > - Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with
> > existing initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why
> > aren't these relevant?
> [...]
>
> It seems like there are at least couple of factors at play here:
> first the significant number of users and contributors within
> mainland China compared to other regions (analysis suggests there
> were nearly as many contributors to the Rocky release from China as
> the USA), but second there may be facets of Chinese culture which
> make this sort of demonstrative presence a much stronger signal than
> it would be in other cultures.
>
> > - Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I
> > understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails
> > would be fine, and the lowest common denominator).
>
> Someone in the TC room (forgive me, I don't recall who now, maybe
> Rico?) asserted that Chinese contributors generally only read the
> first message in any given thread (perhaps just looking for possible
> announcements?) and that if they _do_ attempt to read through some
> of the longer threads they don't participate in them because the
> discussion is presumed to be over and decisions final by the time
> they "reach the end" (I guess not realizing that it's perfectly fine
> to reply to a month-old discussion and try to help alter course on
> things if you have an actual concern?).
>
>
While I understand the technical issues that could be due using IRC in
China, I still don't get why opening the gates and saying WeChat being yet
another official channel would prevent our community from fragmenting.

Truly the usage of IRC is certainly questionable, but if we have multiple
ways to discuss, I just doubt we could prevent us to silo ourselves between
our personal usages.
Either we consider the new channels as being only for southbound
communication, or we envisage the possibility, as a community, to migrate
from IRC to elsewhere (I'm particulary not fan of the latter so I would
challenge this but I can understand the reasons)

-Sylvain

> I also have technical questions about 'wechat' (like how do you
> > use it without a smartphone?) and the relevance of tools we
> > currently use, but this will open Pandora's box, and I'd rather
> > not spend my energy on closing that box right now :D
>
> Not that I was planning on running it myself, but I did look into
> the logistics. Apparently there is at least one free/libre open
> source wechat client under active development but you still need to
> use a separate mobile device to authenticate your client's
> connection to wechat's central communication service. By design, it
> appears this is so that you can't avoid reporting your physical
> location (it's been suggested this is to comply with government
> requirements for tracking citizens participating in potentially
> illegal discussions). They also go to lengths to prevent you from
> running the required mobile app within an emulator, since that would
> provide a possible workaround to avoid being tracked. Further, there
> is some history of backdoors getting included in the software, so
> you need to use it with the expectation that you're basically
> handing over all communications and content for which you use that
> mobile device to wechat developers/service operators and, by proxy,
> the Chinese government.
> --
> Jeremy Stanley
> __
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> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Sean McGinnis]

> 
> > I also have technical questions about 'wechat' (like how do you
> > use it without a smartphone?) and the relevance of tools we
> > currently use, but this will open Pandora's box, and I'd rather
> > not spend my energy on closing that box right now :D
> 
> Not that I was planning on running it myself, but I did look into
> the logistics. Apparently there is at least one free/libre open
> source wechat client under active development but you still need to
> use a separate mobile device to authenticate your client's
> connection to wechat's central communication service. By design, it
> appears this is so that you can't avoid reporting your physical
> location (it's been suggested this is to comply with government
> requirements for tracking citizens participating in potentially
> illegal discussions).

This is correct from my experience. There are one or two desktop clients I have
found out there, but there is no way to log in to them other than logging into
your phone app, then using that to scan a QR-code like image in order to
authenticate. As far as I know, there is no way to use Wechat without
installing a smartphone app.


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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2018-09-16 14:14:41 +0200 (+0200), Jean-philippe Evrard wrote:
[...]
> - What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind the
> language barrier)?

As I understand it, the suggestion is that mere presence of project
leadership in venues where this emerging subset of our community
gathers would provide a strong signal that we support them and care
about their experience with the software.

> - Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with
> existing initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why
> aren't these relevant?
[...]

It seems like there are at least couple of factors at play here:
first the significant number of users and contributors within
mainland China compared to other regions (analysis suggests there
were nearly as many contributors to the Rocky release from China as
the USA), but second there may be facets of Chinese culture which
make this sort of demonstrative presence a much stronger signal than
it would be in other cultures.

> - Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I
> understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails
> would be fine, and the lowest common denominator).

Someone in the TC room (forgive me, I don't recall who now, maybe
Rico?) asserted that Chinese contributors generally only read the
first message in any given thread (perhaps just looking for possible
announcements?) and that if they _do_ attempt to read through some
of the longer threads they don't participate in them because the
discussion is presumed to be over and decisions final by the time
they "reach the end" (I guess not realizing that it's perfectly fine
to reply to a month-old discussion and try to help alter course on
things if you have an actual concern?).

> I also have technical questions about 'wechat' (like how do you
> use it without a smartphone?) and the relevance of tools we
> currently use, but this will open Pandora's box, and I'd rather
> not spend my energy on closing that box right now :D

Not that I was planning on running it myself, but I did look into
the logistics. Apparently there is at least one free/libre open
source wechat client under active development but you still need to
use a separate mobile device to authenticate your client's
connection to wechat's central communication service. By design, it
appears this is so that you can't avoid reporting your physical
location (it's been suggested this is to comply with government
requirements for tracking citizens participating in potentially
illegal discussions). They also go to lengths to prevent you from
running the required mobile app within an emulator, since that would
provide a possible workaround to avoid being tracked. Further, there
is some history of backdoors getting included in the software, so
you need to use it with the expectation that you're basically
handing over all communications and content for which you use that
mobile device to wechat developers/service operators and, by proxy,
the Chinese government.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Alex Xu]

Fred Li  于2018年9月17日周一 上午8:25写道：

> There are many wechat groups about OpenStack, some of them are regional
> (like southern east China, Beijing, Xi'an group), some of them are event
> oriented, and some are for others. Yes, you need to be invited, which is
> not convenient. So far as I know there is not nova group, or maybe Alex
> knows.
>

No, I don't have any nova group.


> Thanks, I will invite you to 1 or 2 active groups.
>
> On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 11:33 PM, Matt Riedemann 
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/15/2018 9:50 PM, Fred Li wrote:
>>
>>> As a non-native English speaker, it is nice-to-have that some TC or BoD
>>> can stay in the local social media, like wechat group in China. But it is
>>> also very difficult for non-native Chinese speakers to stay find useful
>>> information in ton of Chinese chats.
>>> My thoughts (even I am not a TC candidate) on this is,
>>> 1. it is kind of you to stay in the local group.
>>> 2. if we know that you are in, we will say English if we want you to
>>> notice.
>>> 3. since there is local OpenStack operation manager, hope he/she can
>>> identify some information and help to translate, or remind them to
>>> translate.
>>>
>>> My one cent.
>>>
>>
>> Is there a generic openstack group on wechat? Does one have to be invited
>> to it? Is there a specific openstack/nova group on wechat? I'm on wechat
>> anyway so I don't mind being in those groups if someone wants to reach out.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Matt
>>
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>
>
>
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> Regards
> Fred Li (李永乐)
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Fred Li]

There are many wechat groups about OpenStack, some of them are regional
(like southern east China, Beijing, Xi'an group), some of them are event
oriented, and some are for others. Yes, you need to be invited, which is
not convenient. So far as I know there is not nova group, or maybe Alex
knows.
Thanks, I will invite you to 1 or 2 active groups.

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 11:33 PM, Matt Riedemann 
wrote:

> On 9/15/2018 9:50 PM, Fred Li wrote:
>
>> As a non-native English speaker, it is nice-to-have that some TC or BoD
>> can stay in the local social media, like wechat group in China. But it is
>> also very difficult for non-native Chinese speakers to stay find useful
>> information in ton of Chinese chats.
>> My thoughts (even I am not a TC candidate) on this is,
>> 1. it is kind of you to stay in the local group.
>> 2. if we know that you are in, we will say English if we want you to
>> notice.
>> 3. since there is local OpenStack operation manager, hope he/she can
>> identify some information and help to translate, or remind them to
>> translate.
>>
>> My one cent.
>>
>
> Is there a generic openstack group on wechat? Does one have to be invited
> to it? Is there a specific openstack/nova group on wechat? I'm on wechat
> anyway so I don't mind being in those groups if someone wants to reach out.
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Mohammed Naser]

Sign me up too :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Zhipeng Huang  wrote:
> 
> Great to see the momentum going ! :) 
> 
> Another problem is that many people doesn't follow upstream so they are 
> oblivious about the new features and cool things had been done in every 
> cycle, and then all these types of half ass openstack trashing blog post got 
> shared in wechat moments dissing how openstack 2015 didn't help to solve 
> their 2018 problems
> 
> Glad to have Alex and Matt sign up on the Nova side :)
> 
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 4:57 AM Alex Xu  wrote:
>> I'm happy to be the translator or forwarder for the nova issue if you guys 
>> need(although, the nova team isn't happy with me now, also  i see it is not 
>> to my personal. I guess they won't be make me hard for other work I do.). I 
>> can see there are a lot of Chinese operators/users complain some issues, but 
>> they never send their feedback to the mail-list, this may due to the 
>> language, or people don't know the OpenSource culture in the China.(To be 
>> host, the OpenStack is first project, let a lot of developers to understand 
>> what is OpenSource, and how it is works. In the before, since the linux 
>> kernel is hard, really only few people in the China experience OpenSource).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Matt Riedemann  于2018年9月16日周日 下午11:34写道：
>>> On 9/15/2018 9:50 PM, Fred Li wrote:
>>> > As a non-native English speaker, it is nice-to-have that some TC or BoD 
>>> > can stay in the local social media, like wechat group in China. But it 
>>> > is also very difficult for non-native Chinese speakers to stay find 
>>> > useful information in ton of Chinese chats.
>>> > My thoughts (even I am not a TC candidate) on this is,
>>> > 1. it is kind of you to stay in the local group.
>>> > 2. if we know that you are in, we will say English if we want you to 
>>> > notice.
>>> > 3. since there is local OpenStack operation manager, hope he/she can 
>>> > identify some information and help to translate, or remind them to 
>>> > translate.
>>> > 
>>> > My one cent.
>>> 
>>> Is there a generic openstack group on wechat? Does one have to be 
>>> invited to it? Is there a specific openstack/nova group on wechat? I'm 
>>> on wechat anyway so I don't mind being in those groups if someone wants 
>>> to reach out.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Matt
>>> 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Zhipeng Huang]

Great to see the momentum going ! :)

Another problem is that many people doesn't follow upstream so they are
oblivious about the new features and cool things had been done in every
cycle, and then all these types of half ass openstack trashing blog post
got shared in wechat moments dissing how openstack 2015 didn't help to
solve their 2018 problems

Glad to have Alex and Matt sign up on the Nova side :)

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 4:57 AM Alex Xu  wrote:

> I'm happy to be the translator or forwarder for the nova issue if you guys
> need(although, the nova team isn't happy with me now, also  i see it is not
> to my personal. I guess they won't be make me hard for other work I do.). I
> can see there are a lot of Chinese operators/users complain some issues,
> but they never send their feedback to the mail-list, this may due to the
> language, or people don't know the OpenSource culture in the China.(To be
> host, the OpenStack is first project, let a lot of developers to understand
> what is OpenSource, and how it is works. In the before, since the linux
> kernel is hard, really only few people in the China experience OpenSource).
>
>
>
>
> Matt Riedemann  于2018年9月16日周日 下午11:34写道：
>
>> On 9/15/2018 9:50 PM, Fred Li wrote:
>> > As a non-native English speaker, it is nice-to-have that some TC or BoD
>> > can stay in the local social media, like wechat group in China. But it
>> > is also very difficult for non-native Chinese speakers to stay find
>> > useful information in ton of Chinese chats.
>> > My thoughts (even I am not a TC candidate) on this is,
>> > 1. it is kind of you to stay in the local group.
>> > 2. if we know that you are in, we will say English if we want you to
>> notice.
>> > 3. since there is local OpenStack operation manager, hope he/she can
>> > identify some information and help to translate, or remind them to
>> > translate.
>> >
>> > My one cent.
>>
>> Is there a generic openstack group on wechat? Does one have to be
>> invited to it? Is there a specific openstack/nova group on wechat? I'm
>> on wechat anyway so I don't mind being in those groups if someone wants
>> to reach out.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> __
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Alex Xu]

I'm happy to be the translator or forwarder for the nova issue if you guys
need(although, the nova team isn't happy with me now, also  i see it is not
to my personal. I guess they won't be make me hard for other work I do.). I
can see there are a lot of Chinese operators/users complain some issues,
but they never send their feedback to the mail-list, this may due to the
language, or people don't know the OpenSource culture in the China.(To be
host, the OpenStack is first project, let a lot of developers to understand
what is OpenSource, and how it is works. In the before, since the linux
kernel is hard, really only few people in the China experience OpenSource).




Matt Riedemann  于2018年9月16日周日 下午11:34写道：

> On 9/15/2018 9:50 PM, Fred Li wrote:
> > As a non-native English speaker, it is nice-to-have that some TC or BoD
> > can stay in the local social media, like wechat group in China. But it
> > is also very difficult for non-native Chinese speakers to stay find
> > useful information in ton of Chinese chats.
> > My thoughts (even I am not a TC candidate) on this is,
> > 1. it is kind of you to stay in the local group.
> > 2. if we know that you are in, we will say English if we want you to
> notice.
> > 3. since there is local OpenStack operation manager, hope he/she can
> > identify some information and help to translate, or remind them to
> > translate.
> >
> > My one cent.
>
> Is there a generic openstack group on wechat? Does one have to be
> invited to it? Is there a specific openstack/nova group on wechat? I'm
> on wechat anyway so I don't mind being in those groups if someone wants
> to reach out.
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Matt Riedemann]

On 9/15/2018 9:50 PM, Fred Li wrote:
As a non-native English speaker, it is nice-to-have that some TC or BoD 
can stay in the local social media, like wechat group in China. But it 
is also very difficult for non-native Chinese speakers to stay find 
useful information in ton of Chinese chats.

My thoughts (even I am not a TC candidate) on this is,
1. it is kind of you to stay in the local group.
2. if we know that you are in, we will say English if we want you to notice.
3. since there is local OpenStack operation manager, hope he/she can 
identify some information and help to translate, or remind them to 
translate.


My one cent.


Is there a generic openstack group on wechat? Does one have to be 
invited to it? Is there a specific openstack/nova group on wechat? I'm 
on wechat anyway so I don't mind being in those groups if someone wants 
to reach out.


--

Thanks,

Matt

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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Jean-philippe Evrard]

[...]

I respect that tool choices can make a difference in enabling or
improving our outreach to specific cultures.

I agree there.

I'll commit to
personally rejecting presence on proprietary social media services
so as to demonstrate that public work can be done within our
community while relying exclusively on free/libre open source
software.

It is nice to be in a position to do so. Please don't change! : )

I recognize the existence of the free software movement as
a distinct culture with whom we could do a better job of connecting.
If as a community we promote and embrace non-free tools we will only
continue to alienate them, [...]

I agree again with Jeremy here.

As this was a direct question for the candidates, here is my answer...

There is two layers in this conversation: a personal level, and an 
official stance on the subject (as discussed in the TC room).


At a personal level,I guess I wouldn't mind myself joining to Wechat, 
with the hope of being helpful there.
As I don't speak this language particularily, I am not sure how I can be 
more of help there than I can be with speaking an ambassador in a 
mutually common language (I am also not native english). At the same 
time, I would be very sad to not use an open tool, because I am not sure 
what the privacy implications would be. But, pragmatically, I understand 
the biggest picture here: We want to be more reachable, as increasing 
community size over time is a must for sustainable software, and if I 
can be a little help personally, I'd do it.


Before giving my opinion for an official stance as a TC candidate (the 
other layer), I'd like to ask you a few questions ...


- What is the problem joining Wechat will solve (keeping in mind the 
language barrier)?
- Isn't this problem already solved for other languages with existing 
initiatives like local ambassadors and i18n team? Why aren't these relevant?
- Should we widen this 'Wechat' initiative to all system based on location> systems?
- Pardon my ignorance here, what is the problem with email? (I 
understand some chat systems might be blocked, I thought emails would be 
fine, and the lowest common denominator).


I also have technical questions about 'wechat' (like how do you use it 
without a smartphone?) and the relevance of tools we currently use, but 
this will open Pandora's box, and I'd rather not spend my energy on 
closing that box right now :D


Best regards,
Jean-Philippe Evrard (evrardjp)

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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Fred Li]

As a non-native English speaker, it is nice-to-have that some TC or BoD can
stay in the local social media, like wechat group in China. But it is also
very difficult for non-native Chinese speakers to stay find useful
information in ton of Chinese chats.
My thoughts (even I am not a TC candidate) on this is,
1. it is kind of you to stay in the local group.
2. if we know that you are in, we will say English if we want you to notice.
3. since there is local OpenStack operation manager, hope he/she can
identify some information and help to translate, or remind them to
translate.

My one cent.


On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 2:21 AM, Zhipeng Huang 
wrote:

> Ya I think the whole point here (the question per se )is just to gauge if
> TC Candidates are willing to engage with regional developer in a way that
> is best fitting for that region.
>
> It surly will take other measures to make this entire effort work . On
> that I totally agree with you that there should be ambassadors to help
> facilitate the discussion, and the end goal is always to go to upstream
> instead of the convo ending in local or downstream.
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 9:52 AM Matt Riedemann  wrote:
>
>> On 9/14/2018 1:52 PM, Zhipeng Huang wrote:
>> > This is a joint question from mnaser and me :)
>> >
>> > For the candidates who are running for tc seats, please reply to this
>> > email to indicate if you are open to use certain social media app in
>> > certain region (like Wechat in China, Line in Japan, etc.), in order to
>> > reach out to the OpenStack developers in that region and help them to
>> > connect to the upstream community as well as answering questions or
>> > other activities that will help. (sorry for the long sentence ... )
>> >
>> > Rico and I already sign up for Wechat communication for sure :)
>>
>> Having had some experience with WeChat, I can't imagine I'd be very
>> useful in a nova channel in WeChat since the majority of people in that
>> group wouldn't be speaking English so I wouldn't be of much help, unless
>> someone directly asked me a question in English. I realize the double
>> standard here with expecting non-native English speakers to show up in
>> the #openstack-nova freenode IRC channel to ask questions. It's
>> definitely a hard problem when people simply can't speak the same
>> language and I don't have a great solution. Probably the best common
>> solution we have is having more people across time zones and language
>> barriers engaging in more discussion in the mailing list (and Gerrit
>> reviews of course). So maybe that means if you're in WeChat and someone
>> is blocked or has a bigger question for a specific project team,
>> encourage them to send an email to the dev ML - but that requires
>> ambassadors to be in WeChat channels to make that suggestion. I think of
>> this like working with product teams within your own company. Lots of
>> those people aren't active upstream contributors and to avoid being the
>> middleman (and thus bottleneck) for all communication between upstream
>> and downstream teams, I've encouraged the downstream folk to send an
>> email upstream to start a discussion.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Zhipeng Huang]

Ya I think the whole point here (the question per se )is just to gauge if
TC Candidates are willing to engage with regional developer in a way that
is best fitting for that region.

It surly will take other measures to make this entire effort work . On that
I totally agree with you that there should be ambassadors to help
facilitate the discussion, and the end goal is always to go to upstream
instead of the convo ending in local or downstream.


On Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 9:52 AM Matt Riedemann  wrote:

> On 9/14/2018 1:52 PM, Zhipeng Huang wrote:
> > This is a joint question from mnaser and me :)
> >
> > For the candidates who are running for tc seats, please reply to this
> > email to indicate if you are open to use certain social media app in
> > certain region (like Wechat in China, Line in Japan, etc.), in order to
> > reach out to the OpenStack developers in that region and help them to
> > connect to the upstream community as well as answering questions or
> > other activities that will help. (sorry for the long sentence ... )
> >
> > Rico and I already sign up for Wechat communication for sure :)
>
> Having had some experience with WeChat, I can't imagine I'd be very
> useful in a nova channel in WeChat since the majority of people in that
> group wouldn't be speaking English so I wouldn't be of much help, unless
> someone directly asked me a question in English. I realize the double
> standard here with expecting non-native English speakers to show up in
> the #openstack-nova freenode IRC channel to ask questions. It's
> definitely a hard problem when people simply can't speak the same
> language and I don't have a great solution. Probably the best common
> solution we have is having more people across time zones and language
> barriers engaging in more discussion in the mailing list (and Gerrit
> reviews of course). So maybe that means if you're in WeChat and someone
> is blocked or has a bigger question for a specific project team,
> encourage them to send an email to the dev ML - but that requires
> ambassadors to be in WeChat channels to make that suggestion. I think of
> this like working with product teams within your own company. Lots of
> those people aren't active upstream contributors and to avoid being the
> middleman (and thus bottleneck) for all communication between upstream
> and downstream teams, I've encouraged the downstream folk to send an
> email upstream to start a discussion.
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Matt Riedemann]

On 9/14/2018 1:52 PM, Zhipeng Huang wrote:

This is a joint question from mnaser and me :)

For the candidates who are running for tc seats, please reply to this 
email to indicate if you are open to use certain social media app in 
certain region (like Wechat in China, Line in Japan, etc.), in order to 
reach out to the OpenStack developers in that region and help them to 
connect to the upstream community as well as answering questions or 
other activities that will help. (sorry for the long sentence ... )


Rico and I already sign up for Wechat communication for sure :)


Having had some experience with WeChat, I can't imagine I'd be very 
useful in a nova channel in WeChat since the majority of people in that 
group wouldn't be speaking English so I wouldn't be of much help, unless 
someone directly asked me a question in English. I realize the double 
standard here with expecting non-native English speakers to show up in 
the #openstack-nova freenode IRC channel to ask questions. It's 
definitely a hard problem when people simply can't speak the same 
language and I don't have a great solution. Probably the best common 
solution we have is having more people across time zones and language 
barriers engaging in more discussion in the mailing list (and Gerrit 
reviews of course). So maybe that means if you're in WeChat and someone 
is blocked or has a bigger question for a specific project team, 
encourage them to send an email to the dev ML - but that requires 
ambassadors to be in WeChat channels to make that suggestion. I think of 
this like working with product teams within your own company. Lots of 
those people aren't active upstream contributors and to avoid being the 
middleman (and thus bottleneck) for all communication between upstream 
and downstream teams, I've encouraged the downstream folk to send an 
email upstream to start a discussion.


--

Thanks,

Matt

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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Samuel Cassiba]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:25 PM Rico Lin  wrote:
>>
>>
>> For the candidates who are running for tc seats, please reply to this email 
>> to indicate if you are open to use certain social media app in certain 
>> region (like Wechat in China, Line in Japan, etc.), in order to reach out to 
>> the OpenStack developers in that region and help them to connect to the 
>> upstream community as well as answering questions or other activities that 
>> will help. (sorry for the long sentence ... )
>
>
> We definitely need to reach to developers from each location in global. And a 
> way to expose technical community to some place more close to developer and 
> not creating to much burden to all. For me, if we can have channels for 
> broadcast our key information cross entire community (like what's next TC/PTL 
> election, what mission is been proposed, who people can talk to when certain 
> issue happens, who you can talk to when you got great idea, and most 
> importantly where are the right place you should go to) expose to all and 
> maybe encourge community leaders to join. A list of channels is not hard to 
> setup, but it will bring big different IMO and we can always adjust what 
> channel we have. What we can limit here is make sure always help the new 
> joiner to find the right place to engage.
>
> Once we got connected to local developers and community, it's easier for TC 
> to guide all IMO. Will this work? Not sure! So why not we try and find out!:)
>>
>>
>>
>> Rico and I already sign up for Wechat communication for sure :)
>
> Good to have you! Let's do it!!
>
> BTW nice dicsussion today, thanks all who is there in TC room to share.
>

I idle on the unofficial Slack group, which has sporadic activity from
those looking to either connect with the community or find some kind
of support or help. Despite an autoresponder telling people to go
elsewhere, yet more people still sign up and ask questions.

I'm not saying one needs to establish beachheads on all the outlets,
but perhaps the message to get people in the right place should be
better refined. As it sits, the autoresponse on Slack seems like the
cheerful message from the Magratheans right before the warheads are
dispatched. I'm not sure how often that results in a solid conversion
without devoted community ambassadors watching these outlets, but it
doesn't look very inviting from just scrolling through the default
channel history.

I see merit in doing more than having an autoresponder, but I've also
seen first-hand what happens when otherwise diverse communities enter
into a freemium contract. The net result is that people communicate
less and less for various reasons, ending in the inverse of the
desired effect of being more connected.

Best,
Samuel

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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Rico Lin]

>
>
> For the candidates who are running for tc seats, please reply to this
> email to indicate if you are open to use certain social media app in
> certain region (like Wechat in China, Line in Japan, etc.), in order to
> reach out to the OpenStack developers in that region and help them to
> connect to the upstream community as well as answering questions or other
> activities that will help. (sorry for the long sentence ... )
>

We definitely need to reach to developers from each location in global. And
a way to expose technical community to some place more close to developer
and not creating to much burden to all. For me, if we can have channels for
broadcast our key information cross entire community (like what's next
TC/PTL election, what mission is been proposed, who people can talk to when
certain issue happens, who you can talk to when you got great idea, and
most importantly where are the right place you should go to) expose to all
and maybe encourge community leaders to join. A list of channels is not
hard to setup, but it will bring big different IMO and we can always adjust
what channel we have. What we can limit here is make sure always help the
new joiner to find the right place to engage.

Once we got connected to local developers and community, it's easier for TC
to guide all IMO. Will this work? Not sure! So why not we try and find
out!:)

>
>
Rico and I already sign up for Wechat communication for sure :)
>
Good to have you! Let's do it!!

BTW nice dicsussion today, thanks all who is there in TC room to share.
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Re: [openstack-dev] [election][tc]Question for candidates about global reachout

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2018-09-14 13:52:50 -0600 (-0600), Zhipeng Huang wrote:
> This is a joint question from mnaser and me :)
> 
> For the candidates who are running for tc seats, please reply to
> this email to indicate if you are open to use certain social media
> app in certain region (like Wechat in China, Line in Japan, etc.),
> in order to reach out to the OpenStack developers in that region
> and help them to connect to the upstream community as well as
> answering questions or other activities that will help. (sorry for
> the long sentence ... )
[...]

I respect that tool choices can make a difference in enabling or
improving our outreach to specific cultures. I'll commit to
personally rejecting presence on proprietary social media services
so as to demonstrate that public work can be done within our
community while relying exclusively on free/libre open source
software. I recognize the existence of the free software movement as
a distinct culture with whom we could do a better job of connecting.
If as a community we promote and embrace non-free tools we will only
continue to alienate them, so I'm happy to serve as an example that
it is possible to be an engaged and effective contributor to our
community without compromising those ideals.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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