Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-15 Thread Geoff O'Callaghan
On 13/01/2015 3:45 AM, Jeremy Stanley fu...@yuggoth.org wrote:

 There's really no way to _force_ official logging on all
 project-related channels. People who are opposed to the idea simply
 move their conversations to new channels. They'll straddle the line
 between somewhat official looking and official enough to require
 logging.

Yeah while this is true you can certainly work to achieve this goal and if
there are side conversations that aren't logged then so be it.

Irc logs can be a very valuable resource.

Thanks
Geoff
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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-14 Thread Thierry Carrez
John Griffith wrote:
 Also just to reiterate something that Sean pointed out that's bugged
 me for a while proliferation of channels and what I view as
 limited usage of openstack-dev.  Honestly I think it's more
 detrimental to have all the silos of communication going on as opposed
 to all of us actually working together in openstack-dev.  Sub channels
 are great, but I think there are folks solving problems in their
 specific project that likely have already been solved elsewhere.  Sure
 there's conversations that belong in a sub-channel but honestly maybe
 more should start in the dev channel and progress from there.

At this point openstack-dev is only used for two things: cross-project
discussions, and as a general directory of who is online. The second
usage is fading as people no longer systematically join that channel.

It's difficult to go back to a single channel, or to split discussions
between the general channel and the team-oriented one. I would also like
more activity on #openstack-dev, but I'm not sure how to trigger that.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2015-01-13 18:02:41 + (+), Louis Taylor wrote:
 This would be great, since it avoids the scheduling and which
 channel have we moved to questions when a different slot is
 required.

Yep, once every team has its meeting in a separate channel, they'll
all be Tuesday at 1900 UTC and you get to pick which meeting you'll
participate in that week. Also make sure you join all 100+ project
channels in case someone needs to ping you about something in a
random meeting.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Louis Taylor
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 10:54:13AM -0700, John Griffith wrote:
 I'd echo all the points made regarding logging shouldn't be a
 problem; we're an Open Source project so the idea of our communication
 being public making anybody nervous and not wanting to participate
 seems really off to me.  Yes many of us setup our IRC clients to log,
 some of us record everything anyway; most of all some of us like to go
 back through logs to recap discussions that we had with others
 regarding features, bug fixes etc.  It's a valuable thing to have IMO.

Yes, and transparency in the development is only a good thing in my opinion.

 While I'm at it, do meeting channels make sense for project meetings?  Seems
 like if every project has an IRC channel they could/should probably just have
 their meetings there (just make sure there's a meetbot setup).

This would be great, since it avoids the scheduling and which channel have we
moved to questions when a different slot is required.

Louis


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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread John Griffith
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Kuvaja, Erno kuv...@hp.com wrote:


 -Original Message-
 From: Dave Walker [mailto:em...@daviey.com]
 Sent: 13 January 2015 15:10
 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

 On 13 January 2015 at 12:32, Kuvaja, Erno kuv...@hp.com wrote:
  I'm heavily against the public logging to the level that I will just leave 
  the
 channel if that will be enabled. My point is not foul language and I do
 understand that there could be some benefits out of it. Personally I think we
 have enough tracked public communication means like ask.openstack.org
 and the mailing lists. IRC is and has always been real time communications
 with defined audience.
 
  I think the major benefits of this defined audience are:
  1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. (
 Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need
 to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the
 conversation month ago.
  2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. (
  For example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have
  found security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask
  second opinion. Those details are not public and that bug can still be
  raised and dealt properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs
  are publicly available the details are publicly available as well. )
  3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem
 to throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not
 yell them out publicly.
 
  For me personally the last point is the biggest problem, professionally the
 second is major concern. I have been using IRC for so long time that I'm not
 willing to take the risk I can't filter myself on my regular channels. 
 Meetings
 are different story as there it is defined time and at least I'm on meeting
 mode that time knowing it will be publicly logged.
 
  The channels are not locked so anyone can keep a client online and log it
 for themselves if they feel need for it and lots of people do so. There is 
 just
 that big barrier having it within the defined group you can see on the 
 channel
 versus public to anyone.
 
  As opposed to Cindy's original statement of not wanting to be available 
  off-
 hours, that's solved already: you can set your client to away or not respond.
 It's really common on any IRC network that nick is online while user is not 
 or
 is ignoring that real time outreach by personal preference. No-one
 will/should take that personally or offensive. Not having bouncer/shell to 
 run
 your client is as well personal preference, I doubt anyone can claim they
 could not do it with the options available nowadays.
 
   - Erno (jokke_) Kuvaja


 Hi,

 I think these concerns are more based around fear, than any real merit.  I
 would suggest that any IRC communication should be treated as public, and
 therefore the idea of bouncing around personal contacts details is pretty
 poor personal security.  If this is required, then using private messages 
 would
 seem to be perfectly suitable.

 A user can join any #openstack-* channel, and not necessarily be a friend of
 the project.  The concerns about security issues should be treated as if they
 have already become public.

 It seems that Openstack currently has around 40 non-meeting channels
 logged[0] and contrasting with the Ubuntu project, there are some 350 public
 logged channels[1] - with the logs going back to 2004.  This has caused 
 little
 issue over the years.

 It would seem logical to introduce project-wide irc logging IMO.  I
 *have* found it useful to search through archives of projects, and find it
 frustrating when this data is not available.

 I really struggle with the idea that contributors of a developer channel do 
 not
 consider themselves to be talking in a public forum, which to me - is the 
 same
 as being logged.  Without this mindset, the channel (and project?) merely
 becomes a cabal developers area.

 [0] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/
 [1] http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/01/01/

 --
 Kind Regards,
 Dave Walker

 I do not have a problem to tell my phone number to someone at my local which 
 is packed with people I do not know and they might hear it, I would have 
 problem with my local if they would start recording all discussions in their 
 premises and posting those publicly in the internet. I don't have even 
 problem X people recording their visits there as long as it stays in their 
 private collection, again same thing I would have problem them putting those 
 records out public and I would try to ensure not being in their vicinity. Why 
 should I/we/one treat IRC differently to any other public venue of discussion?

 - Erno

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Kuvaja, Erno


 -Original Message-
 From: Dave Walker [mailto:em...@daviey.com]
 Sent: 13 January 2015 15:10
 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
 
 On 13 January 2015 at 12:32, Kuvaja, Erno kuv...@hp.com wrote:
  I'm heavily against the public logging to the level that I will just leave 
  the
 channel if that will be enabled. My point is not foul language and I do
 understand that there could be some benefits out of it. Personally I think we
 have enough tracked public communication means like ask.openstack.org
 and the mailing lists. IRC is and has always been real time communications
 with defined audience.
 
  I think the major benefits of this defined audience are:
  1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. (
 Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need
 to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the
 conversation month ago.
  2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. (
  For example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have
  found security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask
  second opinion. Those details are not public and that bug can still be
  raised and dealt properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs
  are publicly available the details are publicly available as well. )
  3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem
 to throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not
 yell them out publicly.
 
  For me personally the last point is the biggest problem, professionally the
 second is major concern. I have been using IRC for so long time that I'm not
 willing to take the risk I can't filter myself on my regular channels. 
 Meetings
 are different story as there it is defined time and at least I'm on meeting
 mode that time knowing it will be publicly logged.
 
  The channels are not locked so anyone can keep a client online and log it
 for themselves if they feel need for it and lots of people do so. There is 
 just
 that big barrier having it within the defined group you can see on the channel
 versus public to anyone.
 
  As opposed to Cindy's original statement of not wanting to be available off-
 hours, that's solved already: you can set your client to away or not respond.
 It's really common on any IRC network that nick is online while user is not or
 is ignoring that real time outreach by personal preference. No-one
 will/should take that personally or offensive. Not having bouncer/shell to run
 your client is as well personal preference, I doubt anyone can claim they
 could not do it with the options available nowadays.
 
   - Erno (jokke_) Kuvaja
 
 
 Hi,
 
 I think these concerns are more based around fear, than any real merit.  I
 would suggest that any IRC communication should be treated as public, and
 therefore the idea of bouncing around personal contacts details is pretty
 poor personal security.  If this is required, then using private messages 
 would
 seem to be perfectly suitable.
 
 A user can join any #openstack-* channel, and not necessarily be a friend of
 the project.  The concerns about security issues should be treated as if they
 have already become public.
 
 It seems that Openstack currently has around 40 non-meeting channels
 logged[0] and contrasting with the Ubuntu project, there are some 350 public
 logged channels[1] - with the logs going back to 2004.  This has caused little
 issue over the years.
 
 It would seem logical to introduce project-wide irc logging IMO.  I
 *have* found it useful to search through archives of projects, and find it
 frustrating when this data is not available.
 
 I really struggle with the idea that contributors of a developer channel do 
 not
 consider themselves to be talking in a public forum, which to me - is the same
 as being logged.  Without this mindset, the channel (and project?) merely
 becomes a cabal developers area.
 
 [0] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/
 [1] http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/01/01/
 
 --
 Kind Regards,
 Dave Walker

I do not have a problem to tell my phone number to someone at my local which is 
packed with people I do not know and they might hear it, I would have problem 
with my local if they would start recording all discussions in their premises 
and posting those publicly in the internet. I don't have even problem X people 
recording their visits there as long as it stays in their private collection, 
again same thing I would have problem them putting those records out public and 
I would try to ensure not being in their vicinity. Why should I/we/one treat 
IRC differently to any other public venue of discussion?

- Erno
 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread John Griffith
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Jeremy Stanley fu...@yuggoth.org wrote:
 On 2015-01-13 18:02:41 + (+), Louis Taylor wrote:
 This would be great, since it avoids the scheduling and which
 channel have we moved to questions when a different slot is
 required.

 Yep, once every team has its meeting in a separate channel, they'll
 all be Tuesday at 1900 UTC and you get to pick which meeting you'll
Ahh yes, good point

 participate in that week. Also make sure you join all 100+ project
 channels in case someone needs to ping you about something in a
 random meeting.
Well that's really no different than what I have to do today anyway :)

 --
 Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2015-01-13 13:59:26 -0500 (-0500), Sean Dague wrote:
 Which is a really important point. I hang in the 3 meeting channels,
[...]

Ahem, it's four now BTW. ;)
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Sean Dague
On 01/13/2015 01:25 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
 On 2015-01-13 18:02:41 + (+), Louis Taylor wrote:
 This would be great, since it avoids the scheduling and which
 channel have we moved to questions when a different slot is
 required.
 
 Yep, once every team has its meeting in a separate channel, they'll
 all be Tuesday at 1900 UTC and you get to pick which meeting you'll
 participate in that week. Also make sure you join all 100+ project
 channels in case someone needs to ping you about something in a
 random meeting.

Which is a really important point. I hang in the 3 meeting channels, and
-dev. And I can manage about 6 - 8 openstack channels after that for
projects that I'm actively involved in. After that, it's just too much
distraction.

The meeting channels are a good leveler to ensure that people that might
need to be pinged can be around, or at least see things afterwards.

-Sean

-- 
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http://dague.net

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Martin Geisler
Kuvaja, Erno kuv...@hp.com writes:

 I'm heavily against the public logging to the level that I will just
 leave the channel if that will be enabled. My point is not foul
 language and I do understand that there could be some benefits out of
 it. Personally I think we have enough tracked public communication
 means like ask.openstack.org and the mailing lists. IRC is and has
 always been real time communications with defined audience.

For what it's worth, we've had the same discussion in the Mercurial
community and decided no *not* enable public logging on the IRC channel.

The arguments are similar to what you say, plus people said that they
would behave differently if the channels were logged in public.

We don't have problems with foul language, but people felt that they
would be more restricted if everything they write end up in a log like
on a mailing list.

Some people said that they would be less active on the list during their
work hours -- not because it was strictly forbidden for them to spend
some time help an open source project (and everybody needs a break once
in a while), but because they felt it could look strange if their boss
sees a full archive of their activity.

It is similar to how I'm allowed to use the Internet for personal things
at work (as long as I do it in a reasonable amount) but I don't want to
hand over a complete log to my boss.

So people should be aware that enabling logging and putting a notice
about it in the channel topic is likely to affect the behavior. It will
have some pros (people can search the logs for old discussions) and some
cons (people might not bother posting a summary of an IRC discussion on
the mailing list).

-- 
Martin Geisler

http://google.com/+MartinGeisler


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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Daniel P. Berrange
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 12:32:23PM +, Kuvaja, Erno wrote:
 I think the major benefits of this defined audience are:
 1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public.
 ( Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no
 need to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during
 the conversation month ago.

 2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. (
 For example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have
 found security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask second
 opinion. Those details are not public and that bug can still be raised
 and dealt properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs are
 publicly available the details are publicly available as well. )
 3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no
 problem to throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel,
 I would not yell them out publicly.

[snip]

 The channels are not locked so anyone can keep a client online and log
 it for themselves if they feel need for it and lots of people do so.

And any of those people can easily just publish their IRC logs on the
web at any time. So the 3 supposed advantages of non-logging your list
above are simply a facade that don't really exist.

I've been half inclined to setup an IRC bot to log all the openstack
channels myself, precisely because only some of the OpenStack channels
are officially logged.

Fundamentally IRC is a completely open public forum and should be
treated as such, whether logged or not, because you have to assume
any 3rd party could be publishing logs at any time.

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Daniel P. Berrange
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 08:27:58AM -0500, Sean Dague wrote:
 On 01/13/2015 08:01 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
  Kuvaja, Erno wrote:
  [...]
  1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. ( 
  Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no 
  need to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during 
  the conversation month ago.
  2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. ( For 
  example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have found 
  security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask second opinion. 
  Those details are not public and that bug can still be raised and dealt 
  properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs are publicly 
  available the details are publicly available as well. )
  3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem 
  to throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would 
  not yell them out publicly.
  [...]
  
  All 3 arguments point to issues you have with *public* channels, not
  *logged* channels.
  
  Our IRC channels are, in effect, already public. Anyone can join them,
  anyone can log them. An embargoed vulnerability discussed on an IRC
  channel (logged or not) should be considered leaked. I agree that
  logging makes it easier for random people to access that already-public
  information, but you can't consider an IRC channel private (and change
  your communication style or content) because it's not logged by eavesdrop.
  
  What you seem to be after is a private, invitation-only IRC channel.
  That's an orthogonal issue to the concept of logging.
 
 Honestly, I do think it's probably worth having an OpenStack wide bit of
 guidance here, especially now that every project has felt the need to
 spin up their own channel instead of using #openstack-dev (which is
 currently mostly void of content).
 
 Not having these logs means we often are missing important parts of
 historical context when decisions are made, because a lot more design is
 happening in unarchived formats than archived ones.

Yep, there have been a number of occassions when conversations that are
relevant to my work have taken place on IRC channels for projects that
I don't normally participate in. It would have been useful to be able
to see the logs and in some cases the channels were not logged. I think
that the project should log all #openstack* IRC channels unconditionally
to maximise the spread of knowledge and improve/facilitate collaboration
 communication between teams. We are a supposedly open, collaborative
project after all.

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Kuvaja, Erno
I'm heavily against the public logging to the level that I will just leave the 
channel if that will be enabled. My point is not foul language and I do 
understand that there could be some benefits out of it. Personally I think we 
have enough tracked public communication means like ask.openstack.org and the 
mailing lists. IRC is and has always been real time communications with defined 
audience. 

I think the major benefits of this defined audience are:
1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. ( 
Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need to 
explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the 
conversation month ago.
2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. ( For 
example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have found security 
vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask second opinion. Those details 
are not public and that bug can still be raised and dealt properly. Once the 
discussion is logged and the logs are publicly available the details are 
publicly available as well. )
3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem to 
throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not yell 
them out publicly.

For me personally the last point is the biggest problem, professionally the 
second is major concern. I have been using IRC for so long time that I'm not 
willing to take the risk I can't filter myself on my regular channels. Meetings 
are different story as there it is defined time and at least I'm on meeting 
mode that time knowing it will be publicly logged.

The channels are not locked so anyone can keep a client online and log it for 
themselves if they feel need for it and lots of people do so. There is just 
that big barrier having it within the defined group you can see on the channel 
versus public to anyone. 

As opposed to Cindy's original statement of not wanting to be available 
off-hours, that's solved already: you can set your client to away or not 
respond. It's really common on any IRC network that nick is online while user 
is not or is ignoring that real time outreach by personal preference. No-one 
will/should take that personally or offensive. Not having bouncer/shell to run 
your client is as well personal preference, I doubt anyone can claim they could 
not do it with the options available nowadays.

 - Erno (jokke_) Kuvaja

 -Original Message-
 From: Nikhil Komawar [mailto:nikhil.koma...@rackspace.com]
 Sent: 05 January 2015 19:11
 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
 
 Thanks Cindy!
 
 Glance cores, can you all please pitch in?
 
 -Nikhil
 
 
 From: Cindy Pallares [cpalla...@redhat.com]
 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 12:28 PM
 To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
 
 I've made a patch, we can vote on it there.
 
 https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145025/
 
 
 On 01/05/2015 11:15 AM, Amrith Kumar wrote:
  I think logging the channel is a benefit even if, as Nikhil points out, it 
  is not
 an official meeting. Trove logs both the #openstack-trove channel and the
 meetings when they occur. I have also had some conversations with other
 ATC's on #openstack-oslo and #openstack-security and have found that the
 eavesdrop logs at http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/ to be invaluable
 in either bug comments or code review comments.
 
  The IRC channel is an integral part of communicating within the OpenStack
 community. The use of foul language and other inappropriate behavior
 should be monitored not by admins but by other members of the community
 and called out just as one would call out similar behavior in a non-virtual 
 work
 environment. I submit to you that profanity and inappropriate conduct in an
 IRC channel constitutes a hostile work environment just as much as it does in
 a non-virtual environment.
 
  Therefore I submit to you that there is no place for such behavior on an IRC
 channel irrespective of whether it is logged or not.
 
  Thanks,
 
  -amrith
 
  | -Original Message-
  | From: Morgan Fainberg [mailto:morgan.fainb...@gmail.com]
  | Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 11:58 AM
  | To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
  | Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
  |
  |
  |
  |  On Jan 5, 2015, at 08:07, Nikhil Komawar
  |  nikhil.koma...@rackspace.com
  | wrote:
  | 
  |  Based on the feedback received, we would like to avoid logging on
  |  the
  | project channel. My take from the discussion was that it gives many
  | a folks a feeling of informal platform to express their ideas freely
  | in contrast to the meeting channels.
  | 
  |  However, at the same time I would like to point out that using
  |  foul
  | language in the open freenode channels is a bad

Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Thierry Carrez
Kuvaja, Erno wrote:
 [...]
 1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. ( 
 Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need 
 to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the 
 conversation month ago.
 2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. ( For 
 example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have found 
 security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask second opinion. 
 Those details are not public and that bug can still be raised and dealt 
 properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs are publicly available 
 the details are publicly available as well. )
 3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem to 
 throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not yell 
 them out publicly.
 [...]

All 3 arguments point to issues you have with *public* channels, not
*logged* channels.

Our IRC channels are, in effect, already public. Anyone can join them,
anyone can log them. An embargoed vulnerability discussed on an IRC
channel (logged or not) should be considered leaked. I agree that
logging makes it easier for random people to access that already-public
information, but you can't consider an IRC channel private (and change
your communication style or content) because it's not logged by eavesdrop.

What you seem to be after is a private, invitation-only IRC channel.
That's an orthogonal issue to the concept of logging.

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Sean Dague
On 01/13/2015 08:01 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
 Kuvaja, Erno wrote:
 [...]
 1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. ( 
 Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need 
 to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the 
 conversation month ago.
 2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. ( For 
 example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have found 
 security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask second opinion. 
 Those details are not public and that bug can still be raised and dealt 
 properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs are publicly available 
 the details are publicly available as well. )
 3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem 
 to throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not 
 yell them out publicly.
 [...]
 
 All 3 arguments point to issues you have with *public* channels, not
 *logged* channels.
 
 Our IRC channels are, in effect, already public. Anyone can join them,
 anyone can log them. An embargoed vulnerability discussed on an IRC
 channel (logged or not) should be considered leaked. I agree that
 logging makes it easier for random people to access that already-public
 information, but you can't consider an IRC channel private (and change
 your communication style or content) because it's not logged by eavesdrop.
 
 What you seem to be after is a private, invitation-only IRC channel.
 That's an orthogonal issue to the concept of logging.

Honestly, I do think it's probably worth having an OpenStack wide bit of
guidance here, especially now that every project has felt the need to
spin up their own channel instead of using #openstack-dev (which is
currently mostly void of content).

Not having these logs means we often are missing important parts of
historical context when decisions are made, because a lot more design is
happening in unarchived formats than archived ones.

-Sean

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Sean Dague
On 01/13/2015 08:23 AM, Kuvaja, Erno wrote:
 -Original Message-
 From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
 Sent: 13 January 2015 13:02
 To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

 Kuvaja, Erno wrote:
 [...]
 1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. (
 Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need
 to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the
 conversation month ago.
 2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. (
 For example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have
 found security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask
 second opinion. Those details are not public and that bug can still be
 raised and dealt properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs
 are publicly available the details are publicly available as well. )
 3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem
 to throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not
 yell them out publicly.
 [...]

 All 3 arguments point to issues you have with *public* channels, not
 *logged* channels.

 Our IRC channels are, in effect, already public. Anyone can join them, anyone
 can log them. An embargoed vulnerability discussed on an IRC channel
 (logged or not) should be considered leaked. I agree that logging makes it
 easier for random people to access that already-public information, but you
 can't consider an IRC channel private (and change your communication style
 or content) because it's not logged by eavesdrop.

 What you seem to be after is a private, invitation-only IRC channel.
 That's an orthogonal issue to the concept of logging.
 
 Nope, what I'm saying is that I'm opposing public logging to the level that I 
 will not be part if it will be enabled. If someone start publishing the logs 
 they collect from the channel my response is the same I will ask to stop 
 doing that and if it's not enough I will just leave.  I do not use tinfoil 
 hat nor live in a bubble thinking that information is private but I prefer 
 not to make it more obvious. And your private channel would not solve 
 someone logging and publishing the logs anyways, any level of privacy in 
 the communication is based on trust was it participants, service/venue 
 providers or something else so lets not make it more difficult than it is.

This is an extremely confusing point of view to me when it comes to a
channel dedicated to the development of a piece Open Source Software.

All the various artifacts on how we got to a piece of software are
valuable in the future maintenance of it, as well as realizing why we
did not go down certain paths in the past.

-Sean

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Flavio Percoco

On 13/01/15 08:27 -0500, Sean Dague wrote:

On 01/13/2015 08:01 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:

Kuvaja, Erno wrote:

[...]
1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. ( 
Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need to 
explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the 
conversation month ago.
2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. ( For 
example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have found security 
vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask second opinion. Those details 
are not public and that bug can still be raised and dealt properly. Once the 
discussion is logged and the logs are publicly available the details are 
publicly available as well. )
3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem to 
throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not yell 
them out publicly.
[...]


All 3 arguments point to issues you have with *public* channels, not
*logged* channels.

Our IRC channels are, in effect, already public. Anyone can join them,
anyone can log them. An embargoed vulnerability discussed on an IRC
channel (logged or not) should be considered leaked. I agree that
logging makes it easier for random people to access that already-public
information, but you can't consider an IRC channel private (and change
your communication style or content) because it's not logged by eavesdrop.

What you seem to be after is a private, invitation-only IRC channel.
That's an orthogonal issue to the concept of logging.


Honestly, I do think it's probably worth having an OpenStack wide bit of
guidance here, especially now that every project has felt the need to
spin up their own channel instead of using #openstack-dev (which is
currently mostly void of content).

Not having these logs means we often are missing important parts of
historical context when decisions are made, because a lot more design is
happening in unarchived formats than archived ones.


+2A

As mentioned in my last email, I think this is worth doing and asking
for. It will also avoid this kinds of discussions and it'll also make
clear the status of our IRC channels.

For example, people with concerns like Erno's would know in advance
that all openstack related IRC channels are logged.

Not sure how/when this can be asked/enforced but it'd avoid this kind
of discussions, at least.

Flavio



-Sean

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Chris Dent

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:


Yep, there have been a number of occassions when conversations that are
relevant to my work have taken place on IRC channels for projects that
I don't normally participate in. It would have been useful to be able
to see the logs and in some cases the channels were not logged. I think
that the project should log all #openstack* IRC channels unconditionally
to maximise the spread of knowledge and improve/facilitate collaboration
 communication between teams. We are a supposedly open, collaborative
project after all.


I have no objection to the channels being logged but I think we need
to be careful about relying on the channels and the logs too much
for whatever is deemed as important conversation.

I think any medium which is driven by synchronous conversation is
fairly detrimental to fully participatory and _reasoned_ discussion
amongst people who are distributed around the world.

Yes, it's true that having the logs works to ameliorate many of the
problems presented by synchrony but it does little to address two
fairly large problems:

* it's so freaking noisy and interruption causing (even if you try
  to be good about ignoring it)
* decisions get made by the people are who are present _now_ and no
  others

(The second is obviously a more relevant problem.)

So: Yes please to logs, but no thank you to IRC being such a primary
medium of communication (which, in my experience, it has been in
OpenStack).

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Kuvaja, Erno
 -Original Message-
 From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
 Sent: 13 January 2015 13:02
 To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
 
 Kuvaja, Erno wrote:
  [...]
  1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. (
 Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need
 to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the
 conversation month ago.
  2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. (
  For example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have
  found security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask
  second opinion. Those details are not public and that bug can still be
  raised and dealt properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs
  are publicly available the details are publicly available as well. )
  3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem
 to throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not
 yell them out publicly.
  [...]
 
 All 3 arguments point to issues you have with *public* channels, not
 *logged* channels.
 
 Our IRC channels are, in effect, already public. Anyone can join them, anyone
 can log them. An embargoed vulnerability discussed on an IRC channel
 (logged or not) should be considered leaked. I agree that logging makes it
 easier for random people to access that already-public information, but you
 can't consider an IRC channel private (and change your communication style
 or content) because it's not logged by eavesdrop.
 
 What you seem to be after is a private, invitation-only IRC channel.
 That's an orthogonal issue to the concept of logging.

Nope, what I'm saying is that I'm opposing public logging to the level that I 
will not be part if it will be enabled. If someone start publishing the logs 
they collect from the channel my response is the same I will ask to stop doing 
that and if it's not enough I will just leave.  I do not use tinfoil hat nor 
live in a bubble thinking that information is private but I prefer not to make 
it more obvious. And your private channel would not solve someone logging and 
publishing the logs anyways, any level of privacy in the communication is 
based on trust was it participants, service/venue providers or something else 
so lets not make it more difficult than it is.

- Erno
 
 --
 Thierry Carrez (ttx)
 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Dave Walker
On 13 January 2015 at 12:32, Kuvaja, Erno kuv...@hp.com wrote:
 I'm heavily against the public logging to the level that I will just leave 
 the channel if that will be enabled. My point is not foul language and I do 
 understand that there could be some benefits out of it. Personally I think we 
 have enough tracked public communication means like ask.openstack.org and the 
 mailing lists. IRC is and has always been real time communications with 
 defined audience.

 I think the major benefits of this defined audience are:
 1) One does not need to express themselves in a way that is for public. ( 
 Misunderstandings can be corrected on the fly if needed. ) There is no need 
 to explain to anyone reading the logs what you actually meant during the 
 conversation month ago.
 2) there is level of confidentiality within that defined audience. ( For 
 example someone not familiar with the processes thinks they have found 
 security vulnerability and comes to the IRC-channel to ask second opinion. 
 Those details are not public and that bug can still be raised and dealt 
 properly. Once the discussion is logged and the logs are publicly available 
 the details are publicly available as well. )
 3) That defined audience does not usually limit content. I have no problem to 
 throw my e-mail address, phone number etc. into the channel, I would not yell 
 them out publicly.

 For me personally the last point is the biggest problem, professionally the 
 second is major concern. I have been using IRC for so long time that I'm not 
 willing to take the risk I can't filter myself on my regular channels. 
 Meetings are different story as there it is defined time and at least I'm on 
 meeting mode that time knowing it will be publicly logged.

 The channels are not locked so anyone can keep a client online and log it for 
 themselves if they feel need for it and lots of people do so. There is just 
 that big barrier having it within the defined group you can see on the 
 channel versus public to anyone.

 As opposed to Cindy's original statement of not wanting to be available 
 off-hours, that's solved already: you can set your client to away or not 
 respond. It's really common on any IRC network that nick is online while user 
 is not or is ignoring that real time outreach by personal preference. No-one 
 will/should take that personally or offensive. Not having bouncer/shell to 
 run your client is as well personal preference, I doubt anyone can claim they 
 could not do it with the options available nowadays.

  - Erno (jokke_) Kuvaja


Hi,

I think these concerns are more based around fear, than any real
merit.  I would suggest that any IRC communication should be treated
as public, and therefore the idea of bouncing around personal contacts
details is pretty poor personal security.  If this is required, then
using private messages would seem to be perfectly suitable.

A user can join any #openstack-* channel, and not necessarily be a
friend of the project.  The concerns about security issues should be
treated as if they have already become public.

It seems that Openstack currently has around 40 non-meeting channels
logged[0] and contrasting with the Ubuntu project, there are some 350
public logged channels[1] - with the logs going back to 2004.  This
has caused little issue over the years.

It would seem logical to introduce project-wide irc logging IMO.  I
*have* found it useful to search through archives of projects, and
find it frustrating when this data is not available.

I really struggle with the idea that contributors of a developer
channel do not consider themselves to be talking in a public forum,
which to me - is the same as being logged.  Without this mindset, the
channel (and project?) merely becomes a cabal developers area.

[0] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/
[1] http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/01/01/

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Ian Cordasco
0, 1, 2, and 3. 3 channels. I think Sean has this correct.

On 1/13/15, 14:36, Sean Dague s...@dague.net wrote:

On 01/13/2015 03:07 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
 On 2015-01-13 13:59:26 -0500 (-0500), Sean Dague wrote:
 Which is a really important point. I hang in the 3 meeting channels,
 [...]
 
 Ahem, it's four now BTW. ;)
 

Like I said, I hang out in 3 meeting channels. :)

   -Sean

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-13 Thread Sean Dague
On 01/13/2015 03:07 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
 On 2015-01-13 13:59:26 -0500 (-0500), Sean Dague wrote:
 Which is a really important point. I hang in the 3 meeting channels,
 [...]
 
 Ahem, it's four now BTW. ;)
 

Like I said, I hang out in 3 meeting channels. :)

-Sean

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-12 Thread Flavio Percoco

On 09/01/15 12:11 -0800, Joshua Harlow wrote:
So the only comment I'll put in is one that I know not everyone agrees 
with but might as well throw it out there.


http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml (this page has a bunch of 
useful advice IMHO).


From that; something useful to look/think over at least...


If you're considering publishing channel logs, think it through. The 
freenode network is an interactive environment. Even on public 
channels, most users don't weigh their comments with the idea that 
they'll be enshrined in perpetuity. For that reason, few participants 
publish logs.


If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic 
should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make 
comments without logging, and get permission from the channel owners 
before you start. If you're thinking of anonymizing your logs 
(removing information that identifies the specific users), be aware 
that it's difficult to do it well—replies and general context often 
provide identifying information which is hard to filter.


If you just want to publish a single conversation, be careful to get 
permission from each participant. Provide as much context as you can. 
Avoid the temptation to publish or distribute logs without permission 
in order to portray someone in a bad light. The reputation you save 
will most likely be your own.




(Joshua, the below is not about what you posted, I really appreciate
you bringing the above into the discussion)

FWIW, I kind of feel that channel logging should become an OpenStack
thing and not a per-project thing. Log all openstack official
channels, make it clear in the
wiki/homepage/HoToContribute/WhateverYouWannaCallIt and move on.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, prevents the above from happening right
now. I've local (as in my ZNC server) logs of the last 1y 1/2 and I
could just make them public.

Really, IRC is basically(?) public by default and I - I know this is
probably personal opinion - don't think there's a difference between a
logged channel and a not logged one. If we wanted to make the channel
private, we should password protect it and invite few people, make
them sign a contract where they swear they won't publish logs and
whatnot.

Anyway, I think a good way to avoid these discussions for future
projects is to simply enable logging on all openstack- channels.

Cheers,
Flavio




Brian Rosmaita wrote:

The response on the review is overwhelmingly positive (or, strictly
speaking, unanimously non-negative).

If anyone has an objection, could you please register it before 12:00
UTC on Monday, January 12?

https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145025/

thanks,
brian

*From:* David Stanek [dsta...@dstanek.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 07, 2015 4:43 PM
*To:* OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
*Subject:* Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

It's also important to remember that IRC channels are typically not
private and are likely already logged by dozens of people anyway.

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Christopher Aedo ca...@mirantis.com
mailto:ca...@mirantis.com wrote:

   On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:49 AM, Flavio Percoco fla...@redhat.com
   mailto:fla...@redhat.com wrote:
 Fully agree... I don't see how enable logging should be a limitation
 for freedom of thought. We've used it in Zaqar since day 0 and it's
 bee of great help for all of us.
   
 The logging does not remove the need of meetings where decisions and
 more relevant/important topics are discussed.

   Wanted to second this as well. I'm strongly in favor of logging -
   looking through backlogs of chats on other channels has been very
   helpful to me in the past, and it sure to help others in the future.
   I don't think there is danger of anyone pointing to a logged IRC
   conversation in this context as some statement of record.

   -Christopher

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-12 Thread Nikhil Komawar
+1 to Flavio's proposal.

Thanks,
-Nikhil


From: Flavio Percoco [fla...@redhat.com]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 3:16 AM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

On 09/01/15 12:11 -0800, Joshua Harlow wrote:
So the only comment I'll put in is one that I know not everyone agrees
with but might as well throw it out there.

http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml (this page has a bunch of
useful advice IMHO).

From that; something useful to look/think over at least...


If you're considering publishing channel logs, think it through. The
freenode network is an interactive environment. Even on public
channels, most users don't weigh their comments with the idea that
they'll be enshrined in perpetuity. For that reason, few participants
publish logs.

If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic
should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make
comments without logging, and get permission from the channel owners
before you start. If you're thinking of anonymizing your logs
(removing information that identifies the specific users), be aware
that it's difficult to do it well—replies and general context often
provide identifying information which is hard to filter.

If you just want to publish a single conversation, be careful to get
permission from each participant. Provide as much context as you can.
Avoid the temptation to publish or distribute logs without permission
in order to portray someone in a bad light. The reputation you save
will most likely be your own.


(Joshua, the below is not about what you posted, I really appreciate
you bringing the above into the discussion)

FWIW, I kind of feel that channel logging should become an OpenStack
thing and not a per-project thing. Log all openstack official
channels, make it clear in the
wiki/homepage/HoToContribute/WhateverYouWannaCallIt and move on.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, prevents the above from happening right
now. I've local (as in my ZNC server) logs of the last 1y 1/2 and I
could just make them public.

Really, IRC is basically(?) public by default and I - I know this is
probably personal opinion - don't think there's a difference between a
logged channel and a not logged one. If we wanted to make the channel
private, we should password protect it and invite few people, make
them sign a contract where they swear they won't publish logs and
whatnot.

Anyway, I think a good way to avoid these discussions for future
projects is to simply enable logging on all openstack- channels.

Cheers,
Flavio



Brian Rosmaita wrote:
The response on the review is overwhelmingly positive (or, strictly
speaking, unanimously non-negative).

If anyone has an objection, could you please register it before 12:00
UTC on Monday, January 12?

https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145025/

thanks,
brian

*From:* David Stanek [dsta...@dstanek.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 07, 2015 4:43 PM
*To:* OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
*Subject:* Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

It's also important to remember that IRC channels are typically not
private and are likely already logged by dozens of people anyway.

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Christopher Aedo ca...@mirantis.com
mailto:ca...@mirantis.com wrote:

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:49 AM, Flavio Percoco fla...@redhat.com
mailto:fla...@redhat.com wrote:
  Fully agree... I don't see how enable logging should be a limitation
  for freedom of thought. We've used it in Zaqar since day 0 and it's
  bee of great help for all of us.

  The logging does not remove the need of meetings where decisions and
  more relevant/important topics are discussed.

Wanted to second this as well. I'm strongly in favor of logging -
looking through backlogs of chats on other channels has been very
helpful to me in the past, and it sure to help others in the future.
I don't think there is danger of anyone pointing to a logged IRC
conversation in this context as some statement of record.

-Christopher

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-12 Thread Jeremy Stanley
There's really no way to _force_ official logging on all
project-related channels. People who are opposed to the idea simply
move their conversations to new channels. They'll straddle the line
between somewhat official looking and official enough to require
logging.
-- 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-09 Thread Joshua Harlow
So the only comment I'll put in is one that I know not everyone agrees 
with but might as well throw it out there.


http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml (this page has a bunch of 
useful advice IMHO).


From that; something useful to look/think over at least...


If you're considering publishing channel logs, think it through. The 
freenode network is an interactive environment. Even on public channels, 
most users don't weigh their comments with the idea that they'll be 
enshrined in perpetuity. For that reason, few participants publish logs.


If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should 
reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments 
without logging, and get permission from the channel owners before you 
start. If you're thinking of anonymizing your logs (removing 
information that identifies the specific users), be aware that it's 
difficult to do it well—replies and general context often provide 
identifying information which is hard to filter.


If you just want to publish a single conversation, be careful to get 
permission from each participant. Provide as much context as you can. 
Avoid the temptation to publish or distribute logs without permission in 
order to portray someone in a bad light. The reputation you save will 
most likely be your own.



Brian Rosmaita wrote:

The response on the review is overwhelmingly positive (or, strictly
speaking, unanimously non-negative).

If anyone has an objection, could you please register it before 12:00
UTC on Monday, January 12?

https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145025/

thanks,
brian

*From:* David Stanek [dsta...@dstanek.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 07, 2015 4:43 PM
*To:* OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
*Subject:* Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

It's also important to remember that IRC channels are typically not
private and are likely already logged by dozens of people anyway.

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Christopher Aedo ca...@mirantis.com
mailto:ca...@mirantis.com wrote:

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:49 AM, Flavio Percoco fla...@redhat.com
mailto:fla...@redhat.com wrote:
  Fully agree... I don't see how enable logging should be a limitation
  for freedom of thought. We've used it in Zaqar since day 0 and it's
  bee of great help for all of us.

  The logging does not remove the need of meetings where decisions and
  more relevant/important topics are discussed.

Wanted to second this as well. I'm strongly in favor of logging -
looking through backlogs of chats on other channels has been very
helpful to me in the past, and it sure to help others in the future.
I don't think there is danger of anyone pointing to a logged IRC
conversation in this context as some statement of record.

-Christopher

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-09 Thread Brian Rosmaita
The response on the review is overwhelmingly positive (or, strictly speaking, 
unanimously non-negative).

If anyone has an objection, could you please register it before 12:00 UTC on 
Monday, January 12?

https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145025/

thanks,
brian

From: David Stanek [dsta...@dstanek.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 4:43 PM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

It's also important to remember that IRC channels are typically not private and 
are likely already logged by dozens of people anyway.

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Christopher Aedo 
ca...@mirantis.commailto:ca...@mirantis.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:49 AM, Flavio Percoco 
fla...@redhat.commailto:fla...@redhat.com wrote:
 Fully agree... I don't see how enable logging should be a limitation
 for freedom of thought. We've used it in Zaqar since day 0 and it's
 bee of great help for all of us.

 The logging does not remove the need of meetings where decisions and
 more relevant/important topics are discussed.

Wanted to second this as well.  I'm strongly in favor of logging -
looking through backlogs of chats on other channels has been very
helpful to me in the past, and it sure to help others in the future.
I don't think there is danger of anyone pointing to a logged IRC
conversation in this context as some statement of record.

-Christopher

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-07 Thread David Stanek
It's also important to remember that IRC channels are typically not private
and are likely already logged by dozens of people anyway.

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Christopher Aedo ca...@mirantis.com wrote:

 On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:49 AM, Flavio Percoco fla...@redhat.com wrote:
  Fully agree... I don't see how enable logging should be a limitation
  for freedom of thought. We've used it in Zaqar since day 0 and it's
  bee of great help for all of us.
 
  The logging does not remove the need of meetings where decisions and
  more relevant/important topics are discussed.

 Wanted to second this as well.  I'm strongly in favor of logging -
 looking through backlogs of chats on other channels has been very
 helpful to me in the past, and it sure to help others in the future.
 I don't think there is danger of anyone pointing to a logged IRC
 conversation in this context as some statement of record.

 -Christopher

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 OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-06 Thread Flavio Percoco

On 05/01/15 08:57 -0800, Morgan Fainberg wrote:




On Jan 5, 2015, at 08:07, Nikhil Komawar nikhil.koma...@rackspace.com wrote:

Based on the feedback received, we would like to avoid logging on the project 
channel. My take from the discussion was that it gives many a folks a feeling 
of informal platform to express their ideas freely in contrast to the meeting 
channels.

However, at the same time I would like to point out that using foul language in the open 
freenode channels is a bad practice. There are no admins monitoring our project channels 
however, those channels that are monitored have people kicked out on misbehavior.  The 
point being, no logging means freedom of thought for only the creative 
purposes; please do not take me any other way.

Thanks,
-Nikhil



I just want to point out that keystone has logging enabled for our channel and 
I do not see it as a hamper to creative discussion / open discussion. The 
logging is definitely of value. Also a lot of people will locally log a given 
irc channel, which largely nets the same result.

It is still not an official meeting, and we have heated debates at times, the 
logging let's us check back on things discussed outside of the official 
meetings. I do admit it is used less frequently than the meeting logs.


Fully agree... I don't see how enable logging should be a limitation
for freedom of thought. We've used it in Zaqar since day 0 and it's
bee of great help for all of us.

The logging does not remove the need of meetings where decisions and
more relevant/important topics are discussed.



From: Anita Kuno [ante...@anteaya.info]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:42 AM
To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging


On 01/05/2015 06:42 AM, Cindy Pallares wrote:
Hi all,

I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance
channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it
didn't seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not
discussed in the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged through
the channel and it isn't accessible for people who occasionally come
into our channel from other projects, new contributors, and people who
don't want to be reached off-hours or don't have bouncers. Logging our
channel would  increase our community's transparency and make our
development discussions publicly accessible to contributors in all
time-zones and from other projects. It is very useful to look back on
the logs for previous discussions or as well as to refer people to
discussions or questions previously answered.


+2

Thanks for bringing this up :)

Flavio

--
@flaper87
Flavio Percoco


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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-06 Thread Christopher Aedo
On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:49 AM, Flavio Percoco fla...@redhat.com wrote:
 Fully agree... I don't see how enable logging should be a limitation
 for freedom of thought. We've used it in Zaqar since day 0 and it's
 bee of great help for all of us.

 The logging does not remove the need of meetings where decisions and
 more relevant/important topics are discussed.

Wanted to second this as well.  I'm strongly in favor of logging -
looking through backlogs of chats on other channels has been very
helpful to me in the past, and it sure to help others in the future.
I don't think there is danger of anyone pointing to a logged IRC
conversation in this context as some statement of record.

-Christopher

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[openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-05 Thread Cindy Pallares

Hi all,

I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance 
channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it 
didn't seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not 
discussed in the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged through 
the channel and it isn't accessible for people who occasionally come 
into our channel from other projects, new contributors, and people who 
don't want to be reached off-hours or don't have bouncers. Logging our 
channel would  increase our community's transparency and make our 
development discussions publicly accessible to contributors in all 
time-zones and from other projects. It is very useful to look back on 
the logs for previous discussions or as well as to refer people to 
discussions or questions previously answered.



--Cindy

[1] 
http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-11-13-20.03.log.html


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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-05 Thread Louis Taylor
On Mon, Jan 05, 2015 at 05:42:02AM -0600, Cindy Pallares wrote:
 I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance
 channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it didn't
 seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not discussed in
 the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged through the channel and
 it isn't accessible for people who occasionally come into our channel from
 other projects, new contributors, and people who don't want to be reached
 off-hours or don't have bouncers. Logging our channel would  increase our
 community's transparency and make our development discussions publicly
 accessible to contributors in all time-zones and from other projects. It is
 very useful to look back on the logs for previous discussions or as well as
 to refer people to discussions or questions previously answered.

As the person who brought this up previously, +1 on this. Last time it was
brought up there was no strong consensus.

Louis


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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-05 Thread Nikhil Komawar
Based on the feedback received, we would like to avoid logging on the project 
channel. My take from the discussion was that it gives many a folks a feeling 
of informal platform to express their ideas freely in contrast to the meeting 
channels.

However, at the same time I would like to point out that using foul language in 
the open freenode channels is a bad practice. There are no admins monitoring 
our project channels however, those channels that are monitored have people 
kicked out on misbehavior.  The point being, no logging means freedom of 
thought for only the creative purposes; please do not take me any other way.

Thanks,
-Nikhil


From: Anita Kuno [ante...@anteaya.info]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:42 AM
To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

On 01/05/2015 06:42 AM, Cindy Pallares wrote:
 Hi all,

 I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance
 channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it
 didn't seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not
 discussed in the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged through
 the channel and it isn't accessible for people who occasionally come
 into our channel from other projects, new contributors, and people who
 don't want to be reached off-hours or don't have bouncers. Logging our
 channel would  increase our community's transparency and make our
 development discussions publicly accessible to contributors in all
 time-zones and from other projects. It is very useful to look back on
 the logs for previous discussions or as well as to refer people to
 discussions or questions previously answered.


 --Cindy

 [1]
 http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-11-13-20.03.log.html


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 OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
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Hi Cindy:

You might want to consider offering a patch (you can use this one as an
example: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138965/2) and anyone with a
strong perspective can express themselves with a vote and comment.

Thanks,
Anita.

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-05 Thread Cindy Pallares

I've made a patch, we can vote on it there.

https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145025/


On 01/05/2015 11:15 AM, Amrith Kumar wrote:

I think logging the channel is a benefit even if, as Nikhil points out, it is 
not an official meeting. Trove logs both the #openstack-trove channel and the 
meetings when they occur. I have also had some conversations with other ATC's 
on #openstack-oslo and #openstack-security and have found that the eavesdrop 
logs at http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/ to be invaluable in either bug 
comments or code review comments.

The IRC channel is an integral part of communicating within the OpenStack 
community. The use of foul language and other inappropriate behavior should be 
monitored not by admins but by other members of the community and called out 
just as one would call out similar behavior in a non-virtual work environment. 
I submit to you that profanity and inappropriate conduct in an IRC channel 
constitutes a hostile work environment just as much as it does in a non-virtual 
environment.

Therefore I submit to you that there is no place for such behavior on an IRC 
channel irrespective of whether it is logged or not.

Thanks,

-amrith

| -Original Message-
| From: Morgan Fainberg [mailto:morgan.fainb...@gmail.com]
| Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 11:58 AM
| To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
| Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
|
|
|
|  On Jan 5, 2015, at 08:07, Nikhil Komawar nikhil.koma...@rackspace.com
| wrote:
| 
|  Based on the feedback received, we would like to avoid logging on the
| project channel. My take from the discussion was that it gives many a
| folks a feeling of informal platform to express their ideas freely in
| contrast to the meeting channels.
| 
|  However, at the same time I would like to point out that using foul
| language in the open freenode channels is a bad practice. There are no
| admins monitoring our project channels however, those channels that are
| monitored have people kicked out on misbehavior.  The point being, no
| logging means freedom of thought for only the creative purposes; please
| do not take me any other way.
| 
|  Thanks,
|  -Nikhil
| 
|
| I just want to point out that keystone has logging enabled for our channel
| and I do not see it as a hamper to creative discussion / open discussion.
| The logging is definitely of value. Also a lot of people will locally log
| a given irc channel, which largely nets the same result.
|
| It is still not an official meeting, and we have heated debates at times,
| the logging let's us check back on things discussed outside of the
| official meetings. I do admit it is used less frequently than the meeting
| logs.
|
| --Morgan
|
| Sent via mobile
|  
|  From: Anita Kuno [ante...@anteaya.info]
|  Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:42 AM
|  To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
|  Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
| 
|  On 01/05/2015 06:42 AM, Cindy Pallares wrote:
|  Hi all,
| 
|  I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance
|  channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it
|  didn't seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not
|  discussed in the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged
|  through the channel and it isn't accessible for people who
|  occasionally come into our channel from other projects, new
|  contributors, and people who don't want to be reached off-hours or
|  don't have bouncers. Logging our channel would  increase our
|  community's transparency and make our development discussions
|  publicly accessible to contributors in all time-zones and from other
|  projects. It is very useful to look back on the logs for previous
|  discussions or as well as to refer people to discussions or questions
| previously answered.
| 
| 
|  --Cindy
| 
|  [1]
|  http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-11-13
|  -20.03.log.html
| 
| 
|  ___
|  OpenStack-dev mailing list
|  OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
|  http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
|  Hi Cindy:
| 
|  You might want to consider offering a patch (you can use this one as
|  an
|  example: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138965/2) and anyone with a
|  strong perspective can express themselves with a vote and comment.
| 
|  Thanks,
|  Anita.
| 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-05 Thread Morgan Fainberg


 On Jan 5, 2015, at 08:07, Nikhil Komawar nikhil.koma...@rackspace.com wrote:
 
 Based on the feedback received, we would like to avoid logging on the project 
 channel. My take from the discussion was that it gives many a folks a feeling 
 of informal platform to express their ideas freely in contrast to the meeting 
 channels.
 
 However, at the same time I would like to point out that using foul language 
 in the open freenode channels is a bad practice. There are no admins 
 monitoring our project channels however, those channels that are monitored 
 have people kicked out on misbehavior.  The point being, no logging means 
 freedom of thought for only the creative purposes; please do not take me any 
 other way.
 
 Thanks,
 -Nikhil
 

I just want to point out that keystone has logging enabled for our channel and 
I do not see it as a hamper to creative discussion / open discussion. The 
logging is definitely of value. Also a lot of people will locally log a given 
irc channel, which largely nets the same result. 

It is still not an official meeting, and we have heated debates at times, the 
logging let's us check back on things discussed outside of the official 
meetings. I do admit it is used less frequently than the meeting logs. 

--Morgan

Sent via mobile
 
 From: Anita Kuno [ante...@anteaya.info]
 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:42 AM
 To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
 
 On 01/05/2015 06:42 AM, Cindy Pallares wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance
 channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it
 didn't seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not
 discussed in the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged through
 the channel and it isn't accessible for people who occasionally come
 into our channel from other projects, new contributors, and people who
 don't want to be reached off-hours or don't have bouncers. Logging our
 channel would  increase our community's transparency and make our
 development discussions publicly accessible to contributors in all
 time-zones and from other projects. It is very useful to look back on
 the logs for previous discussions or as well as to refer people to
 discussions or questions previously answered.
 
 
 --Cindy
 
 [1]
 http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-11-13-20.03.log.html
 
 
 ___
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 OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
 Hi Cindy:
 
 You might want to consider offering a patch (you can use this one as an
 example: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138965/2) and anyone with a
 strong perspective can express themselves with a vote and comment.
 
 Thanks,
 Anita.
 
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 http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-05 Thread Nikhil Komawar
Appreciate the feedback, Morgan!

Cindy: I do not mind if you open up a Merge Prop for this change (link it on 
this mail loop) and ask for a poll on the gerrit review.

Thanks,
-Nikhil


From: Morgan Fainberg [morgan.fainb...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 11:57 AM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

 On Jan 5, 2015, at 08:07, Nikhil Komawar nikhil.koma...@rackspace.com wrote:

 Based on the feedback received, we would like to avoid logging on the project 
 channel. My take from the discussion was that it gives many a folks a feeling 
 of informal platform to express their ideas freely in contrast to the meeting 
 channels.

 However, at the same time I would like to point out that using foul language 
 in the open freenode channels is a bad practice. There are no admins 
 monitoring our project channels however, those channels that are monitored 
 have people kicked out on misbehavior.  The point being, no logging means 
 freedom of thought for only the creative purposes; please do not take me any 
 other way.

 Thanks,
 -Nikhil


I just want to point out that keystone has logging enabled for our channel and 
I do not see it as a hamper to creative discussion / open discussion. The 
logging is definitely of value. Also a lot of people will locally log a given 
irc channel, which largely nets the same result.

It is still not an official meeting, and we have heated debates at times, the 
logging let's us check back on things discussed outside of the official 
meetings. I do admit it is used less frequently than the meeting logs.

--Morgan

Sent via mobile
 
 From: Anita Kuno [ante...@anteaya.info]
 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:42 AM
 To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

 On 01/05/2015 06:42 AM, Cindy Pallares wrote:
 Hi all,

 I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance
 channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it
 didn't seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not
 discussed in the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged through
 the channel and it isn't accessible for people who occasionally come
 into our channel from other projects, new contributors, and people who
 don't want to be reached off-hours or don't have bouncers. Logging our
 channel would  increase our community's transparency and make our
 development discussions publicly accessible to contributors in all
 time-zones and from other projects. It is very useful to look back on
 the logs for previous discussions or as well as to refer people to
 discussions or questions previously answered.


 --Cindy

 [1]
 http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-11-13-20.03.log.html


 ___
 OpenStack-dev mailing list
 OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
 Hi Cindy:

 You might want to consider offering a patch (you can use this one as an
 example: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138965/2) and anyone with a
 strong perspective can express themselves with a vote and comment.

 Thanks,
 Anita.

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 OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

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Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-05 Thread Amrith Kumar
I think logging the channel is a benefit even if, as Nikhil points out, it is 
not an official meeting. Trove logs both the #openstack-trove channel and the 
meetings when they occur. I have also had some conversations with other ATC's 
on #openstack-oslo and #openstack-security and have found that the eavesdrop 
logs at http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/ to be invaluable in either bug 
comments or code review comments.

The IRC channel is an integral part of communicating within the OpenStack 
community. The use of foul language and other inappropriate behavior should be 
monitored not by admins but by other members of the community and called out 
just as one would call out similar behavior in a non-virtual work environment. 
I submit to you that profanity and inappropriate conduct in an IRC channel 
constitutes a hostile work environment just as much as it does in a non-virtual 
environment.

Therefore I submit to you that there is no place for such behavior on an IRC 
channel irrespective of whether it is logged or not.

Thanks,

-amrith

| -Original Message-
| From: Morgan Fainberg [mailto:morgan.fainb...@gmail.com]
| Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 11:58 AM
| To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
| Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
| 
| 
| 
|  On Jan 5, 2015, at 08:07, Nikhil Komawar nikhil.koma...@rackspace.com
| wrote:
| 
|  Based on the feedback received, we would like to avoid logging on the
| project channel. My take from the discussion was that it gives many a
| folks a feeling of informal platform to express their ideas freely in
| contrast to the meeting channels.
| 
|  However, at the same time I would like to point out that using foul
| language in the open freenode channels is a bad practice. There are no
| admins monitoring our project channels however, those channels that are
| monitored have people kicked out on misbehavior.  The point being, no
| logging means freedom of thought for only the creative purposes; please
| do not take me any other way.
| 
|  Thanks,
|  -Nikhil
| 
| 
| I just want to point out that keystone has logging enabled for our channel
| and I do not see it as a hamper to creative discussion / open discussion.
| The logging is definitely of value. Also a lot of people will locally log
| a given irc channel, which largely nets the same result.
| 
| It is still not an official meeting, and we have heated debates at times,
| the logging let's us check back on things discussed outside of the
| official meetings. I do admit it is used less frequently than the meeting
| logs.
| 
| --Morgan
| 
| Sent via mobile
|  
|  From: Anita Kuno [ante...@anteaya.info]
|  Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:42 AM
|  To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
|  Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
| 
|  On 01/05/2015 06:42 AM, Cindy Pallares wrote:
|  Hi all,
| 
|  I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance
|  channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it
|  didn't seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not
|  discussed in the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged
|  through the channel and it isn't accessible for people who
|  occasionally come into our channel from other projects, new
|  contributors, and people who don't want to be reached off-hours or
|  don't have bouncers. Logging our channel would  increase our
|  community's transparency and make our development discussions
|  publicly accessible to contributors in all time-zones and from other
|  projects. It is very useful to look back on the logs for previous
|  discussions or as well as to refer people to discussions or questions
| previously answered.
| 
| 
|  --Cindy
| 
|  [1]
|  http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-11-13
|  -20.03.log.html
| 
| 
|  ___
|  OpenStack-dev mailing list
|  OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
|  http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
|  Hi Cindy:
| 
|  You might want to consider offering a patch (you can use this one as
|  an
|  example: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138965/2) and anyone with a
|  strong perspective can express themselves with a vote and comment.
| 
|  Thanks,
|  Anita.
| 
|  ___
|  OpenStack-dev mailing list
|  OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
|  http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
| 
|  ___
|  OpenStack-dev mailing list
|  OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
|  http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
| 
| ___
| OpenStack-dev mailing list
| OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
| http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

___
OpenStack-dev mailing list

Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-05 Thread Nikhil Komawar
Thanks Cindy!

Glance cores, can you all please pitch in?

-Nikhil


From: Cindy Pallares [cpalla...@redhat.com]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 12:28 PM
To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

I've made a patch, we can vote on it there.

https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145025/


On 01/05/2015 11:15 AM, Amrith Kumar wrote:
 I think logging the channel is a benefit even if, as Nikhil points out, it is 
 not an official meeting. Trove logs both the #openstack-trove channel and the 
 meetings when they occur. I have also had some conversations with other ATC's 
 on #openstack-oslo and #openstack-security and have found that the eavesdrop 
 logs at http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/ to be invaluable in either 
 bug comments or code review comments.

 The IRC channel is an integral part of communicating within the OpenStack 
 community. The use of foul language and other inappropriate behavior should 
 be monitored not by admins but by other members of the community and called 
 out just as one would call out similar behavior in a non-virtual work 
 environment. I submit to you that profanity and inappropriate conduct in an 
 IRC channel constitutes a hostile work environment just as much as it does in 
 a non-virtual environment.

 Therefore I submit to you that there is no place for such behavior on an IRC 
 channel irrespective of whether it is logged or not.

 Thanks,

 -amrith

 | -Original Message-
 | From: Morgan Fainberg [mailto:morgan.fainb...@gmail.com]
 | Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 11:58 AM
 | To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
 | Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
 |
 |
 |
 |  On Jan 5, 2015, at 08:07, Nikhil Komawar nikhil.koma...@rackspace.com
 | wrote:
 | 
 |  Based on the feedback received, we would like to avoid logging on the
 | project channel. My take from the discussion was that it gives many a
 | folks a feeling of informal platform to express their ideas freely in
 | contrast to the meeting channels.
 | 
 |  However, at the same time I would like to point out that using foul
 | language in the open freenode channels is a bad practice. There are no
 | admins monitoring our project channels however, those channels that are
 | monitored have people kicked out on misbehavior.  The point being, no
 | logging means freedom of thought for only the creative purposes; please
 | do not take me any other way.
 | 
 |  Thanks,
 |  -Nikhil
 | 
 |
 | I just want to point out that keystone has logging enabled for our channel
 | and I do not see it as a hamper to creative discussion / open discussion.
 | The logging is definitely of value. Also a lot of people will locally log
 | a given irc channel, which largely nets the same result.
 |
 | It is still not an official meeting, and we have heated debates at times,
 | the logging let's us check back on things discussed outside of the
 | official meetings. I do admit it is used less frequently than the meeting
 | logs.
 |
 | --Morgan
 |
 | Sent via mobile
 |  
 |  From: Anita Kuno [ante...@anteaya.info]
 |  Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:42 AM
 |  To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 |  Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging
 | 
 |  On 01/05/2015 06:42 AM, Cindy Pallares wrote:
 |  Hi all,
 | 
 |  I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance
 |  channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it
 |  didn't seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not
 |  discussed in the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged
 |  through the channel and it isn't accessible for people who
 |  occasionally come into our channel from other projects, new
 |  contributors, and people who don't want to be reached off-hours or
 |  don't have bouncers. Logging our channel would  increase our
 |  community's transparency and make our development discussions
 |  publicly accessible to contributors in all time-zones and from other
 |  projects. It is very useful to look back on the logs for previous
 |  discussions or as well as to refer people to discussions or questions
 | previously answered.
 | 
 | 
 |  --Cindy
 | 
 |  [1]
 |  http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-11-13
 |  -20.03.log.html
 | 
 | 
 |  ___
 |  OpenStack-dev mailing list
 |  OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 |  http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
 |  Hi Cindy:
 | 
 |  You might want to consider offering a patch (you can use this one as
 |  an
 |  example: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138965/2) and anyone with a
 |  strong perspective can express themselves with a vote and comment.
 | 
 |  Thanks,
 |  Anita.
 | 
 |  ___
 |  OpenStack-dev mailing list
 |  OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 |  http

Re: [openstack-dev] [Glance] IRC logging

2015-01-05 Thread Anita Kuno
On 01/05/2015 06:42 AM, Cindy Pallares wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I would like to re-open the discussion on IRC logging for the glance
 channel. It was discussed on a meeting back in November[1], but it
 didn't seem to have a lot of input from the community and it was not
 discussed in the mailing list. A lot of information is exchanged through
 the channel and it isn't accessible for people who occasionally come
 into our channel from other projects, new contributors, and people who
 don't want to be reached off-hours or don't have bouncers. Logging our
 channel would  increase our community's transparency and make our
 development discussions publicly accessible to contributors in all
 time-zones and from other projects. It is very useful to look back on
 the logs for previous discussions or as well as to refer people to
 discussions or questions previously answered.
 
 
 --Cindy
 
 [1]
 http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-11-13-20.03.log.html
 
 
 ___
 OpenStack-dev mailing list
 OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
 http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Hi Cindy:

You might want to consider offering a patch (you can use this one as an
example: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138965/2) and anyone with a
strong perspective can express themselves with a vote and comment.

Thanks,
Anita.

___
OpenStack-dev mailing list
OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev