Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On Tue, 2014-03-04 at 10:11 +0100, Luke Gorrie wrote: > On 3 March 2014 18:30, Thierry Carrez wrote: > My advice was therefore that you should not wait for that to > happen to > > engage in cooperative behavior, because you don't want to be > the first > company to get singled out. > > > "Cooperative behavior" is vague. Not really, IMO. > Case in point: I have not successfully setup 3rd party CI for the ML2 > driver that I've developed on behalf of a vendor. Please feel free to engage with myself and others on IRC if you have problems. We had a first meeting on #openstack-meeting yesterday and have started putting answers to questions about 3rd party CI here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/third-party-ci-workshop Let me know how we can help you! > Does this make me one of your "uncooperative vendors"? Of course not. Now, if you were not seeking out any assistance from the community and instead were talking to a few other companies about just replacing all of the upstream continuous integration system with something you wrote yourself, yes, I would say that's being uncooperative. :) > Do I need to worry about being fired because somebody at OpenStack > decides to "name and shame" the company I'm doing the work for and > make an example? (Is that what the "deprecated neutron drivers list" > will be used for?) No. Not having success in setting up a required CI link does not make you uncooperative. Simply reach out to others in the community for assistance if you need it. > If one project official says "driver contributors have to comply with > X, Y, Z by Icehouse-2" and then another project official says that > "uncooperative contributors are going to be nailed to the wall" then, > well, sucks to be contributors. I think you are over-analyzing this :) Best, -jay ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On 4 March 2014 11:40, Thierry Carrez wrote: > This is a technical requirement, and failing to match those requirements > is clearly not the same as engaging in deception or otherwise failing > the OpenStack community code of conduct. > Thank you for clearing that up! ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
Luke Gorrie wrote: > "Cooperative behavior" is vague. I realize I was way too vague and apologize if you felt threatened in any way. It is terminology borrowed from sociology, and I realize it does not translate that well in general discussion (and appears stronger than I really meant). > Case in point: I have not successfully setup 3rd party CI for the ML2 > driver that I've developed on behalf of a vendor. Does this make me one > of your "uncooperative vendors"? Do I need to worry about being fired > because somebody at OpenStack decides to "name and shame" the company > I'm doing the work for and make an example? (Is that what the > "deprecated neutron drivers list" will be used for?) This is a technical requirement, and failing to match those requirements is clearly not the same as engaging in deception or otherwise failing the OpenStack community code of conduct. If you fail to match a technical requirement, the only risk for you is to get removed from the mainline code because the developers can't maintain it properly. There is no harsh feelings or blame involved, it's just a natural thing. It's also perfectly valid to ship drivers for OpenStack out of tree. They are not "worse", they are just out of tree. I hope this clarifies, -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On 3 March 2014 18:30, Thierry Carrez wrote: > My advice was therefore that you should not wait for that to happen to > engage in cooperative behavior, because you don't want to be the first > company to get singled out. > "Cooperative behavior" is vague. Case in point: I have not successfully setup 3rd party CI for the ML2 driver that I've developed on behalf of a vendor. Does this make me one of your "uncooperative vendors"? Do I need to worry about being fired because somebody at OpenStack decides to "name and shame" the company I'm doing the work for and make an example? (Is that what the "deprecated neutron drivers list" will be used for?) If one project official says "driver contributors have to comply with X, Y, Z by Icehouse-2" and then another project official says that "uncooperative contributors are going to be nailed to the wall" then, well, sucks to be contributors. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Luke Gorrie wrote: > > That's a really harsh threat being made against a really vaguely defined > > group. > > > > I don't want to have to read between the lines on threats posted to > > openstack-dev to see if my reputation will be in tatters in the morning. > > > > This spoiled my day today, and I have nothing to do with whatever > > incident you guys with privileged information are talking about. > > I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't mean that as a threat: my point was > that at some point, some company will be called out on their > non-cooperative behavior. It just takes an enraged person and an ML post > or a tweet. Since so far all those incidents successfully didn't name > anyone, it will feel very unfair to the first company that gets hit by > such reputational backlash. > > My advice was therefore that you should not wait for that to happen to > engage in cooperative behavior, because you don't want to be the first > company to get singled out. > > This kind of reputational pressure is at work all the time in the Linux > Kernel project, where companies which contribute less or engage in bad > behavior are routinely mentioned (sometimes in very offensive ways). I > don't think we can prevent this happening in OpenStack unless > cooperation stays the norm. > > Well put Thierry! Just to add, part of the intent here is that it's good to do things publicly so as to avoid any misconceptions. > -- > Thierry Carrez (ttx) > > ___ > OpenStack-dev mailing list > OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
Luke Gorrie wrote: > That's a really harsh threat being made against a really vaguely defined > group. > > I don't want to have to read between the lines on threats posted to > openstack-dev to see if my reputation will be in tatters in the morning. > > This spoiled my day today, and I have nothing to do with whatever > incident you guys with privileged information are talking about. I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't mean that as a threat: my point was that at some point, some company will be called out on their non-cooperative behavior. It just takes an enraged person and an ML post or a tweet. Since so far all those incidents successfully didn't name anyone, it will feel very unfair to the first company that gets hit by such reputational backlash. My advice was therefore that you should not wait for that to happen to engage in cooperative behavior, because you don't want to be the first company to get singled out. This kind of reputational pressure is at work all the time in the Linux Kernel project, where companies which contribute less or engage in bad behavior are routinely mentioned (sometimes in very offensive ways). I don't think we can prevent this happening in OpenStack unless cooperation stays the norm. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On 3 March 2014 11:27, Thierry Carrez wrote: > It will certainly hurt the first one we nail on the wall. So here is one > reputational pressure: you don't want to be that company. > > [1] http://fnords.wordpress.com/2014/02/24/the-dilemma-of-open-innovation/ -1. That's a really harsh threat being made against a really vaguely defined group. I don't want to have to read between the lines on threats posted to openstack-dev to see if my reputation will be in tatters in the morning. This spoiled my day today, and I have nothing to do with whatever incident you guys with privileged information are talking about. Cheers, -Luke ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
+1 Sent with AquaMail for Android http://www.aqua-mail.com On March 3, 2014 10:12:43 AM Jay Pipes wrote: On Sat, 2014-03-01 at 16:30 -0700, John Griffith wrote: > Hey, > I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up > recently. Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this most; > don't participate on the ML typically, but I'd at least like to raise > some community awareness. > We all know OpenStack is growing at a rapid pace and has a lot of > promise, so much so that there's an enormous field of vendors and OS > distributions that are focusing a lot of effort and marketing on the > project. > Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one of > the backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that somebody > was working on and contributed a patch for. Instead of providing a > meaningful review and suggesting alternatives to the patch they set up > meetings with other vendors leaving the active members of the > community out and picked things apart in their own format out of the > public view. Nobody from the core Cinder team was involved in these > discussions or meetings (at least that I've been made aware of). > I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this > point. I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no > way to operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is one > thing, but ambushing other peoples work is entirely unacceptable in my > opinion. OpenStack provides a plethora of ways to participate and > voice your opinion, whether it be this mailing list, the IRC channels > which are monitored daily and also host a published weekly meeting for > most projects. Of course when in doubt you're welcome to send me an > email at any time with questions or concerns that you have about a > patch. In any case however the proper way to address concerns about a > submitted patch is to provide a review for that patch. > Everybody has a voice and the ability to participate, and the most > effective way to do that is by thorough, timely and constructive code > reviews. > I'd also like to point out that while a number of companies and > vendors have fancy taglines like "The Leaders of OpenStack", they're > not. OpenStack is a community effort, as of right now there is no > company that leads or runs OpenStack. If you have issues or concerns > on the development side you need to take those up with the development > community, not vendor xyz. +100 And another +1 for use of the word plethora. I will point out -- not knowing who these actors were -- that sometimes it is tough for some folks to adapt to open community methodologies and open discussions. Some people simply don't know any other way of resolving differences other than to work in private or develop what they consider to be "consensus" between favored parties in order to drive "change by bullying". We must, as a community, both make it clear (through posts such as this) that this behavior is antithetical to how the OpenStack community functions, and also provide these individuals with as much assistance as possible in changing their long-practiced habits. Some stick. Some carrot. Best, -jay ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On Sat, 2014-03-01 at 16:30 -0700, John Griffith wrote: > Hey, > > I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up > recently. Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this most; > don't participate on the ML typically, but I'd at least like to raise > some community awareness. > > We all know OpenStack is growing at a rapid pace and has a lot of > promise, so much so that there's an enormous field of vendors and OS > distributions that are focusing a lot of effort and marketing on the > project. > > Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one of > the backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that somebody > was working on and contributed a patch for. Instead of providing a > meaningful review and suggesting alternatives to the patch they set up > meetings with other vendors leaving the active members of the > community out and picked things apart in their own format out of the > public view. Nobody from the core Cinder team was involved in these > discussions or meetings (at least that I've been made aware of). > > I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this > point. I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no > way to operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is one > thing, but ambushing other peoples work is entirely unacceptable in my > opinion. OpenStack provides a plethora of ways to participate and > voice your opinion, whether it be this mailing list, the IRC channels > which are monitored daily and also host a published weekly meeting for > most projects. Of course when in doubt you're welcome to send me an > email at any time with questions or concerns that you have about a > patch. In any case however the proper way to address concerns about a > submitted patch is to provide a review for that patch. > > Everybody has a voice and the ability to participate, and the most > effective way to do that is by thorough, timely and constructive code > reviews. > > I'd also like to point out that while a number of companies and > vendors have fancy taglines like "The Leaders of OpenStack", they're > not. OpenStack is a community effort, as of right now there is no > company that leads or runs OpenStack. If you have issues or concerns > on the development side you need to take those up with the development > community, not vendor xyz. +100 And another +1 for use of the word plethora. I will point out -- not knowing who these actors were -- that sometimes it is tough for some folks to adapt to open community methodologies and open discussions. Some people simply don't know any other way of resolving differences other than to work in private or develop what they consider to be "consensus" between favored parties in order to drive "change by bullying". We must, as a community, both make it clear (through posts such as this) that this behavior is antithetical to how the OpenStack community functions, and also provide these individuals with as much assistance as possible in changing their long-practiced habits. Some stick. Some carrot. Best, -jay ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
Sean Dague wrote: > On 03/01/2014 06:30 PM, John Griffith wrote: >> Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one of the >> backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that somebody was >> working on and contributed a patch for. Instead of providing a >> meaningful review and suggesting alternatives to the patch they set up >> meetings with other vendors leaving the active members of the community >> out and picked things apart in their own format out of the public view. >> Nobody from the core Cinder team was involved in these discussions or >> meetings (at least that I've been made aware of). It's not only sad, it's also extremely ineffective... So it's dumb. >> I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this point. >> I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no way to >> operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is one thing, but >> ambushing other peoples work is entirely unacceptable in my opinion. >> OpenStack provides a plethora of ways to participate and voice your >> opinion, whether it be this mailing list, the IRC channels which are >> monitored daily and also host a published weekly meeting for most >> projects. Of course when in doubt you're welcome to send me an email at >> any time with questions or concerns that you have about a patch. In any >> case however the proper way to address concerns about a submitted patch >> is to provide a review for that patch. > > Honestly, while I realize you don't want to name names, I actually want > to know about bad actors in our community. Because I think that if bad > actors aren't exposed, then they tend to keep up the bad behavior. > > Social pressure is important here. One side of me would prefer if everyone was friends and we did never blame anyone for defective behavior in our community. But, as I wrote recently[1], it's only a matter of time until we face problems where the only solution is to readjust the institutional and reputational pressures. It's the price to pay so that cooperation stays the norm. It will certainly hurt the first one we nail on the wall. So here is one reputational pressure: you don't want to be that company. [1] http://fnords.wordpress.com/2014/02/24/the-dilemma-of-open-innovation/ -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 16:30:10 -0700 John Griffith wrote: > I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this > point. I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no > way to operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is one > thing, but ambushing other peoples work is entirely unacceptable in > my opinion. OpenStack provides a plethora of ways to participate and > voice your opinion, whether it be this mailing list, the IRC channels > which are monitored daily and also host a published weekly meeting > for most projects. Of course when in doubt you're welcome to send me > an email at any time with questions or concerns that you have about a > patch. In any case however the proper way to address concerns about > a submitted patch is to provide a review for that patch. +1 to this. The canonical place for a discussion about a patch is on the review itself. And if someone thinks a mailing list discussion is also required, then link to it from a review for that patch because with the volume of email that openstack-dev gets it is easy to accidentally miss stuff. Chris ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On 03/01/2014 08:45 PM, Monty Taylor wrote: > On 03/01/2014 03:30 PM, John Griffith wrote: >> Hey, >> >> I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up recently. >> Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this most; don't >> participate on the ML typically, but I'd at least like to raise some >> community awareness. I think it's also worth reaching out to those you're talking about directly. Things certainly won't change if they're not given some guidance on good behavior. > I have nothing to add except for a hearty HELL YES. +1 :-) -- Russell Bryant ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 6:30 PM, John Griffith wrote: > Hey, > > I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up recently. > Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this most; don't participate > on the ML typically, but I'd at least like to raise some community > awareness. > > We all know OpenStack is growing at a rapid pace and has a lot of promise, > so much so that there's an enormous field of vendors and OS distributions > that are focusing a lot of effort and marketing on the project. > > Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one of the > backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that somebody was > working on and contributed a patch for. Instead of providing a meaningful > review and suggesting alternatives to the patch they set up meetings with > other vendors leaving the active members of the community out and picked > things apart in their own format out of the public view. Nobody from the > core Cinder team was involved in these discussions or meetings (at least > that I've been made aware of). > > I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this point. > I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no way to > operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is one thing, but > ambushing other peoples work is entirely unacceptable in my opinion. > OpenStack provides a plethora of ways to participate and voice your > opinion, whether it be this mailing list, the IRC channels which are > monitored daily and also host a published weekly meeting for most projects. > Of course when in doubt you're welcome to send me an email at any time > with questions or concerns that you have about a patch. In any case > however the proper way to address concerns about a submitted patch is to > provide a review for that patch. > > Everybody has a voice and the ability to participate, and the most > effective way to do that is by thorough, timely and constructive code > reviews. > > I'd also like to point out that while a number of companies and vendors > have fancy taglines like "The Leaders of OpenStack", they're not. > OpenStack is a community effort, as of right now there is no company that > leads or runs OpenStack. If you have issues or concerns on the development > side you need to take those up with the development community, not vendor > xyz. > > Thanks, > John > Thanks for bringing this up, John. It's important for *all* of us to remember that we need to communicate publicly and collaborate when setting project goals and direction. Doug ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On 03/02/2014 07:10 AM, Sean Dague wrote: > On 03/01/2014 06:30 PM, John Griffith wrote: >> Hey, >> >> I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up >> recently. Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this >> most; don't participate on the ML typically, but I'd at least >> like to raise some community awareness. >> >> We all know OpenStack is growing at a rapid pace and has a lot >> of promise, so much so that there's an enormous field of vendors >> and OS distributions that are focusing a lot of effort and >> marketing on the project. >> >> Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one >> of the backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that >> somebody was working on and contributed a patch for. Instead of >> providing a meaningful review and suggesting alternatives to the >> patch they set up meetings with other vendors leaving the active >> members of the community out and picked things apart in their own >> format out of the public view. Nobody from the core Cinder team >> was involved in these discussions or meetings (at least that I've >> been made aware of). >> >> I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this >> point. I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is >> no way to operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is >> one thing, but ambushing other peoples work is entirely >> unacceptable in my opinion. OpenStack provides a plethora of ways >> to participate and voice your opinion, whether it be this mailing >> list, the IRC channels which are monitored daily and also host a >> published weekly meeting for most projects. Of course when in >> doubt you're welcome to send me an email at any time with >> questions or concerns that you have about a patch. In any case >> however the proper way to address concerns about a submitted >> patch is to provide a review for that patch. > > Honestly, while I realize you don't want to name names, I actually > want to know about bad actors in our community. Because I think > that if bad actors aren't exposed, then they tend to keep up the > bad behavior. Yes they do. They also tend to cargo cult one another's behaviour so poor behaviour begats poor behaviour, in some instances because those caught up in it believe this is the expected method of conducting business. > > Social pressure is important here. Yes it is, if nothing else to share the foundational understanding of opensource, what it means and how it functions. Some in the vendor space operate from a perspective that opensource is merely a license and once copy/pasting it to the top of a file give it no more thought, do the detriment of those embracing opensource values. I share this wiki link hoping others will also promote referencing of open source material more frequently. I am sure there are better references. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source > >> Everybody has a voice and the ability to participate, and the >> most effective way to do that is by thorough, timely and >> constructive code reviews. >> >> I'd also like to point out that while a number of companies and >> vendors have fancy taglines like "The Leaders of OpenStack", >> they're not. OpenStack is a community effort, as of right now >> there is no company that leads or runs OpenStack. Thank you for stating this. For me, this deserves emphasis. Thanks, Anita. >> If you have issues or concerns on the development side you need >> to take those up with the development community, not vendor xyz. > > +1 > > -Sean > > > > ___ OpenStack-dev > mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On 03/01/2014 06:30 PM, John Griffith wrote: > Hey, > > I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up recently. > Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this most; don't > participate on the ML typically, but I'd at least like to raise some > community awareness. > > We all know OpenStack is growing at a rapid pace and has a lot of > promise, so much so that there's an enormous field of vendors and OS > distributions that are focusing a lot of effort and marketing on the > project. > > Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one of the > backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that somebody was > working on and contributed a patch for. Instead of providing a > meaningful review and suggesting alternatives to the patch they set up > meetings with other vendors leaving the active members of the community > out and picked things apart in their own format out of the public view. > Nobody from the core Cinder team was involved in these discussions or > meetings (at least that I've been made aware of). > > I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this point. > I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no way to > operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is one thing, but > ambushing other peoples work is entirely unacceptable in my opinion. > OpenStack provides a plethora of ways to participate and voice your > opinion, whether it be this mailing list, the IRC channels which are > monitored daily and also host a published weekly meeting for most > projects. Of course when in doubt you're welcome to send me an email at > any time with questions or concerns that you have about a patch. In any > case however the proper way to address concerns about a submitted patch > is to provide a review for that patch. Honestly, while I realize you don't want to name names, I actually want to know about bad actors in our community. Because I think that if bad actors aren't exposed, then they tend to keep up the bad behavior. Social pressure is important here. > Everybody has a voice and the ability to participate, and the most > effective way to do that is by thorough, timely and constructive code > reviews. > > I'd also like to point out that while a number of companies and vendors > have fancy taglines like "The Leaders of OpenStack", they're not. > OpenStack is a community effort, as of right now there is no company > that leads or runs OpenStack. If you have issues or concerns on the > development side you need to take those up with the development > community, not vendor xyz. +1 -Sean -- Sean Dague Samsung Research America s...@dague.net / sean.da...@samsung.com http://dague.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On 2 March 2014 12:30, John Griffith wrote: > Hey, > > I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up recently. > Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this most; don't participate > on the ML typically, but I'd at least like to raise some community > awareness. Thank you. Perhaps you should do a talk at ATL about this - one aimed at vendors:) > We all know OpenStack is growing at a rapid pace and has a lot of promise, > so much so that there's an enormous field of vendors and OS distributions > that are focusing a lot of effort and marketing on the project. > > Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one of the > backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that somebody was working > on and contributed a patch for. Instead of providing a meaningful review > and suggesting alternatives to the patch they set up meetings with other > vendors leaving the active members of the community out and picked things > apart in their own format out of the public view. Nobody from the core > Cinder team was involved in these discussions or meetings (at least that > I've been made aware of). :( thats very sad. Did they comment on the review at all? Not that it really matters, but I'm curious how the pathology exhibits itself. > I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this point. I > instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no way to operate in > an Open Source community. Collaboration is one thing, but ambushing other > peoples work is entirely unacceptable in my opinion. OpenStack provides a > plethora of ways to participate and voice your opinion, whether it be this > mailing list, the IRC channels which are monitored daily and also host a > published weekly meeting for most projects. Of course when in doubt you're > welcome to send me an email at any time with questions or concerns that you > have about a patch. In any case however the proper way to address concerns > about a submitted patch is to provide a review for that patch. +1000 > Everybody has a voice and the ability to participate, and the most effective > way to do that is by thorough, timely and constructive code reviews. +1000 -Rob -- Robert Collins Distinguished Technologist HP Converged Cloud ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
+hellyeah On Mar 1, 2014 7:45 PM, Monty Taylor wrote: > > On 03/01/2014 03:30 PM, John Griffith wrote: > > Hey, > > > > I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up recently. > > Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this most; don't > > participate on the ML typically, but I'd at least like to raise some > > community awareness. > > > > We all know OpenStack is growing at a rapid pace and has a lot of > > promise, so much so that there's an enormous field of vendors and OS > > distributions that are focusing a lot of effort and marketing on the > > project. > > > > Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one of the > > backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that somebody was > > working on and contributed a patch for. Instead of providing a > > meaningful review and suggesting alternatives to the patch they set up > > meetings with other vendors leaving the active members of the community > > out and picked things apart in their own format out of the public view. > > Nobody from the core Cinder team was involved in these discussions or > > meetings (at least that I've been made aware of). > > > > I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this point. > > I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no way to > > operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is one thing, but > > ambushing other peoples work is entirely unacceptable in my opinion. > > OpenStack provides a plethora of ways to participate and voice your > > opinion, whether it be this mailing list, the IRC channels which are > > monitored daily and also host a published weekly meeting for most > > projects. Of course when in doubt you're welcome to send me an email at > > any time with questions or concerns that you have about a patch. In any > > case however the proper way to address concerns about a submitted patch > > is to provide a review for that patch. > > > > Everybody has a voice and the ability to participate, and the most > > effective way to do that is by thorough, timely and constructive code > > reviews.. > > > > I'd also like to point out that while a number of companies and vendors > > have fancy taglines like "The Leaders of OpenStack", they're not. > > OpenStack is a community effort, as of right now there is no company > > that leads or runs OpenStack. If you have issues or concerns on the > > development side you need to take those up with the development > > community, not vendor xyz. > > I have nothing to add except for a hearty HELL YES. > > Monty > > > ___ > OpenStack-dev mailing list > OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
On 03/01/2014 03:30 PM, John Griffith wrote: Hey, I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up recently. Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this most; don't participate on the ML typically, but I'd at least like to raise some community awareness. We all know OpenStack is growing at a rapid pace and has a lot of promise, so much so that there's an enormous field of vendors and OS distributions that are focusing a lot of effort and marketing on the project. Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one of the backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that somebody was working on and contributed a patch for. Instead of providing a meaningful review and suggesting alternatives to the patch they set up meetings with other vendors leaving the active members of the community out and picked things apart in their own format out of the public view. Nobody from the core Cinder team was involved in these discussions or meetings (at least that I've been made aware of). I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this point. I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no way to operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is one thing, but ambushing other peoples work is entirely unacceptable in my opinion. OpenStack provides a plethora of ways to participate and voice your opinion, whether it be this mailing list, the IRC channels which are monitored daily and also host a published weekly meeting for most projects. Of course when in doubt you're welcome to send me an email at any time with questions or concerns that you have about a patch. In any case however the proper way to address concerns about a submitted patch is to provide a review for that patch. Everybody has a voice and the ability to participate, and the most effective way to do that is by thorough, timely and constructive code reviews.. I'd also like to point out that while a number of companies and vendors have fancy taglines like "The Leaders of OpenStack", they're not. OpenStack is a community effort, as of right now there is no company that leads or runs OpenStack. If you have issues or concerns on the development side you need to take those up with the development community, not vendor xyz. I have nothing to add except for a hearty HELL YES. Monty ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
[openstack-dev] [OpenStack-Dev] [Cinder] Open Source and community working together
Hey, I just wanted to send out a quick note on a topic that came up recently. Unfortunately the folks that I'd like to read this most; don't participate on the ML typically, but I'd at least like to raise some community awareness. We all know OpenStack is growing at a rapid pace and has a lot of promise, so much so that there's an enormous field of vendors and OS distributions that are focusing a lot of effort and marketing on the project. Something that came up recently in the Cinder project is that one of the backend device vendors wasn't happy with a feature that somebody was working on and contributed a patch for. Instead of providing a meaningful review and suggesting alternatives to the patch they set up meetings with other vendors leaving the active members of the community out and picked things apart in their own format out of the public view. Nobody from the core Cinder team was involved in these discussions or meetings (at least that I've been made aware of). I don't want to go into detail about who, what, where etc at this point. I instead, I want to point out that in my opinion this is no way to operate in an Open Source community. Collaboration is one thing, but ambushing other peoples work is entirely unacceptable in my opinion. OpenStack provides a plethora of ways to participate and voice your opinion, whether it be this mailing list, the IRC channels which are monitored daily and also host a published weekly meeting for most projects. Of course when in doubt you're welcome to send me an email at any time with questions or concerns that you have about a patch. In any case however the proper way to address concerns about a submitted patch is to provide a review for that patch. Everybody has a voice and the ability to participate, and the most effective way to do that is by thorough, timely and constructive code reviews. I'd also like to point out that while a number of companies and vendors have fancy taglines like "The Leaders of OpenStack", they're not. OpenStack is a community effort, as of right now there is no company that leads or runs OpenStack. If you have issues or concerns on the development side you need to take those up with the development community, not vendor xyz. Thanks, John ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
