Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-03-02 Thread Ian Cordasco
-Original Message-
From: Chris Dent <cdent...@anticdent.org>
Reply: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
<openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>
Date: March 2, 2017 at 06:50:11
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
<openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>
Subject:  Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only"
moderated mailing lists

> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017, Clint Byrum wrote:
>
> > So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
> > mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
> > problems has it created for you?
>
> No, it is not working fine, but that may be normal and the best we
> can do.

Specifically, it seems to be *broken* for our Release Team that needs
to communicate in an efficient way with PTLs and Release CPLs.

I understand the purpose of these business-only lists would also allow
for mascots to be sent to that, but I liked the ability to participate
in the discussions of other mascots. Granted, I didn't do it, but I
was also happy to read their conversations.

I don't think there's enough "noise" traffic to justify individual
lists. Would it perhaps be better to have a mailing list that the
release team can use to reach PTLs and Release CPLs with
notifications? Would that satisfy it? At that point, it would be up to
each PTL to subscribe, etc., but it also prevents the Release team
from having to generate N emails where N is the number of
"business-only" lists.

--
Ian Cordasco

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-03-02 Thread Chris Dent

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017, Clint Byrum wrote:


So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
problems has it created for you?


No, it is not working fine, but that may be normal and the best we
can do.

The main problem I experience with the openstack-dev list is not
that there is too much traffic, but that the perception of so much
traffic means that there are many people who are not willing (or
able?) to participate in existing threads or in creating new threads
because they don't want to add to what they feel is already too much
noise.

This is unfortunate because this list is really the only reliable
medium we have for communication as a group that involves any
significant amount of reflective thinking and synthesis. Since some
people are unable or unwilling to participate there are not only the
information fails for "business" mentioned elsewhere but quite a lot
of discussion happens either in the highly reactive and synchronous
medium of IRC or punted until in person (and again synchronous)
events like last week's PTG, delaying progress.

This is a problem for me because asynchrony allows a more considered
and inclusive participation. But if people are not willing or able
to read the list, then that license is not exercised.

Having more lists won't fix that problem. Being able to carve out
time for the sake of communication[1] could improve it, but that's very
challenging in the current state of affairs.

[1] That is, having not just the time but also the headspace that
allows time to read, reflect, correlate and then correspond.

--
Chris Dent ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   https://anticdent.org/
freenode: cdent tw: @anticdent__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-03-01 Thread Mike Perez
On 13:04 Feb 27, Clint Byrum wrote:
> Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-02-27 15:43:12 -0500:
> > 
> > As a person who sends a lot of process-driven email to this list,
> > it is not working for my needs to communicate with others.
> > 
> > Over the past few cycles when I was the release PTL, I always had
> > a couple of PTLs say there was too much email on this list for them
> > to read, and that they had not read my instructions for managing
> > releases. That resulted in us having to train folks at the last
> > minute, remind them of deadlines, deal with them missing deadlines,
> > and otherwise increased the release team's workload.
> > 
> > It is possible the situation will improve now that the automation
> > work is mostly complete and we expect to see fewer significant
> > changes in the release workflow. That still leaves quite a few
> > people regularly surprised by deadlines, though.
> > 
> 
> The problem above is really the krux of it. Whether or not you can keep
> up with the mailing list can be an unknown, unknown. Even now, those
> who can't actually handle the mailing list traffic are in fact likely
> missing this thread about whether or not people can handle the mailing
> list traffic (credit fungi for pointing out this irony to me on IRC).

I feel like this subject comes up in different forms.

FWIW, the dev digest does cover information like release deadlines, elections,
etc. Here's an example:

https://www.openstack.org/blog/2017/01/openstack-developer-mailing-list-digest-20170120/

For anyone that feels like the current ML system is not working and you're
missing important information, do yourself a favor and at least double check
the digest. Suggestions are welcome!


-- 
Mike Perez


pgpPPZaNst4PF.pgp
Description: PGP signature
__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-03-01 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from Clint Byrum's message of 2017-03-01 10:03:34 -0800:
> Excerpts from Jonathan Bryce's message of 2017-03-01 11:49:38 -0600:
> > 
> > > On Feb 28, 2017, at 4:25 AM, Thierry Carrez  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Clint Byrum wrote:
> >  So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single 
> >  openstack-dev
> >  mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
> >  problems has it created for you? 
> > >>> 
> > >>> As a person who sends a lot of process-driven email to this list,
> > >>> it is not working for my needs to communicate with others.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Over the past few cycles when I was the release PTL, I always had
> > >>> a couple of PTLs say there was too much email on this list for them
> > >>> to read, and that they had not read my instructions for managing
> > >>> releases. That resulted in us having to train folks at the last
> > >>> minute, remind them of deadlines, deal with them missing deadlines,
> > >>> and otherwise increased the release team's workload.
> > >>> 
> > >>> It is possible the situation will improve now that the automation
> > >>> work is mostly complete and we expect to see fewer significant
> > >>> changes in the release workflow. That still leaves quite a few
> > >>> people regularly surprised by deadlines, though.
> > >> 
> > >> The problem above is really the krux of it. Whether or not you can keep
> > >> up with the mailing list can be an unknown, unknown. Even now, those
> > >> who can't actually handle the mailing list traffic are in fact likely
> > >> missing this thread about whether or not people can handle the mailing
> > >> list traffic (credit fungi for pointing out this irony to me on IRC).
> > > 
> > > Right, the main issue (for me) is that there is no unique way to reach
> > > out to people that you're 100% sure they will read. For some the miracle
> > > solution will be a personal email, for some it will be an IRC ping, for
> > > some it will be a Twitter private message. There is no 100% sure
> > > solution, and everyone prioritizes differently. The burden of reaching
> > > out and making sure the message was acknowledged is on the person who
> > > sends the message, and that just doesn't scale past 50 teams. That
> > > includes release team communications to PTLs, but also things like
> > > election nomination deadlines and plenty of other things.
> > 
> > Clint asked if there were specific issues in the workflow, and one item 
> > both Thierry and Doug have identified is reaching ALL project leaders 
> > consistently with important notifications or requests. I have also seen 
> > some working group leaders and Foundation staff experience similar 
> > difficulties. Perhaps creating a business-oriented list for PTLs similar to 
> > docs/infra that could help with that particular problem.
> 
> Agreed. I think I may have even missed the krux of the reason for
> the business lists, which was more "how do we get an important signal
> through".
> 
> IMO this is where the announcement list would be useful. But that has
> become something else entirely with release notifications (or it hasn't,
> I don't know, I dropped it). But generally projects do have a low
> traffic higher-priority list for announcements.
> 

Release announcements have moved to a separate list (creatively named
"release-announce" --
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/release-announce).

Doug

Doug

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-03-01 Thread Clint Byrum
Excerpts from Jonathan Bryce's message of 2017-03-01 11:49:38 -0600:
> 
> > On Feb 28, 2017, at 4:25 AM, Thierry Carrez  wrote:
> > 
> > Clint Byrum wrote:
>  So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
>  mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
>  problems has it created for you? 
> >>> 
> >>> As a person who sends a lot of process-driven email to this list,
> >>> it is not working for my needs to communicate with others.
> >>> 
> >>> Over the past few cycles when I was the release PTL, I always had
> >>> a couple of PTLs say there was too much email on this list for them
> >>> to read, and that they had not read my instructions for managing
> >>> releases. That resulted in us having to train folks at the last
> >>> minute, remind them of deadlines, deal with them missing deadlines,
> >>> and otherwise increased the release team's workload.
> >>> 
> >>> It is possible the situation will improve now that the automation
> >>> work is mostly complete and we expect to see fewer significant
> >>> changes in the release workflow. That still leaves quite a few
> >>> people regularly surprised by deadlines, though.
> >> 
> >> The problem above is really the krux of it. Whether or not you can keep
> >> up with the mailing list can be an unknown, unknown. Even now, those
> >> who can't actually handle the mailing list traffic are in fact likely
> >> missing this thread about whether or not people can handle the mailing
> >> list traffic (credit fungi for pointing out this irony to me on IRC).
> > 
> > Right, the main issue (for me) is that there is no unique way to reach
> > out to people that you're 100% sure they will read. For some the miracle
> > solution will be a personal email, for some it will be an IRC ping, for
> > some it will be a Twitter private message. There is no 100% sure
> > solution, and everyone prioritizes differently. The burden of reaching
> > out and making sure the message was acknowledged is on the person who
> > sends the message, and that just doesn't scale past 50 teams. That
> > includes release team communications to PTLs, but also things like
> > election nomination deadlines and plenty of other things.
> 
> Clint asked if there were specific issues in the workflow, and one item both 
> Thierry and Doug have identified is reaching ALL project leaders consistently 
> with important notifications or requests. I have also seen some working group 
> leaders and Foundation staff experience similar difficulties. Perhaps 
> creating a business-oriented list for PTLs similar to docs/infra that could 
> help with that particular problem.

Agreed. I think I may have even missed the krux of the reason for
the business lists, which was more "how do we get an important signal
through".

IMO this is where the announcement list would be useful. But that has
become something else entirely with release notifications (or it hasn't,
I don't know, I dropped it). But generally projects do have a low
traffic higher-priority list for announcements.

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-03-01 Thread Jonathan Bryce

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 4:25 AM, Thierry Carrez  wrote:
> 
> Clint Byrum wrote:
 So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
 mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
 problems has it created for you? 
>>> 
>>> As a person who sends a lot of process-driven email to this list,
>>> it is not working for my needs to communicate with others.
>>> 
>>> Over the past few cycles when I was the release PTL, I always had
>>> a couple of PTLs say there was too much email on this list for them
>>> to read, and that they had not read my instructions for managing
>>> releases. That resulted in us having to train folks at the last
>>> minute, remind them of deadlines, deal with them missing deadlines,
>>> and otherwise increased the release team's workload.
>>> 
>>> It is possible the situation will improve now that the automation
>>> work is mostly complete and we expect to see fewer significant
>>> changes in the release workflow. That still leaves quite a few
>>> people regularly surprised by deadlines, though.
>> 
>> The problem above is really the krux of it. Whether or not you can keep
>> up with the mailing list can be an unknown, unknown. Even now, those
>> who can't actually handle the mailing list traffic are in fact likely
>> missing this thread about whether or not people can handle the mailing
>> list traffic (credit fungi for pointing out this irony to me on IRC).
> 
> Right, the main issue (for me) is that there is no unique way to reach
> out to people that you're 100% sure they will read. For some the miracle
> solution will be a personal email, for some it will be an IRC ping, for
> some it will be a Twitter private message. There is no 100% sure
> solution, and everyone prioritizes differently. The burden of reaching
> out and making sure the message was acknowledged is on the person who
> sends the message, and that just doesn't scale past 50 teams. That
> includes release team communications to PTLs, but also things like
> election nomination deadlines and plenty of other things.

Clint asked if there were specific issues in the workflow, and one item both 
Thierry and Doug have identified is reaching ALL project leaders consistently 
with important notifications or requests. I have also seen some working group 
leaders and Foundation staff experience similar difficulties. Perhaps creating 
a business-oriented list for PTLs similar to docs/infra that could help with 
that particular problem.

Jonathan



__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-28 Thread Thierry Carrez
Clint Byrum wrote:
>>> So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
>>> mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
>>> problems has it created for you? 
>>
>> As a person who sends a lot of process-driven email to this list,
>> it is not working for my needs to communicate with others.
>>
>> Over the past few cycles when I was the release PTL, I always had
>> a couple of PTLs say there was too much email on this list for them
>> to read, and that they had not read my instructions for managing
>> releases. That resulted in us having to train folks at the last
>> minute, remind them of deadlines, deal with them missing deadlines,
>> and otherwise increased the release team's workload.
>>
>> It is possible the situation will improve now that the automation
>> work is mostly complete and we expect to see fewer significant
>> changes in the release workflow. That still leaves quite a few
>> people regularly surprised by deadlines, though.
> 
> The problem above is really the krux of it. Whether or not you can keep
> up with the mailing list can be an unknown, unknown. Even now, those
> who can't actually handle the mailing list traffic are in fact likely
> missing this thread about whether or not people can handle the mailing
> list traffic (credit fungi for pointing out this irony to me on IRC).

Right, the main issue (for me) is that there is no unique way to reach
out to people that you're 100% sure they will read. For some the miracle
solution will be a personal email, for some it will be an IRC ping, for
some it will be a Twitter private message. There is no 100% sure
solution, and everyone prioritizes differently. The burden of reaching
out and making sure the message was acknowledged is on the person who
sends the message, and that just doesn't scale past 50 teams. That
includes release team communications to PTLs, but also things like
election nomination deadlines and plenty of other things.

The unique -dev list is pretty good for things that are generally good
to know, but also OK to miss. It's missing the target for things that
are useless beyond a given group (not "generally good to know") -- hence
your proposal of -business lists. It's also missing the target for
things that you can't afford to miss. For those things we used the
-announce list for a while. We could ask again that *everyone* upstream
must read -announce and prioritize it...

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Clint Byrum
Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-02-27 15:43:12 -0500:
> Excerpts from Clint Byrum's message of 2017-02-27 09:35:21 -0800:
> > Excerpts from Dean Troyer's message of 2017-02-27 09:32:09 -0600:
> > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> > > > This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
> > > > understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
> > > > those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
> > > > issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
> > > > makes little sense to spend time filtering.
> > > 
> > > Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
> > > but this seems counter-intuitive to me.  I consider myself someone who
> > > _does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
> > > breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
> > > easier.  I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
> > > that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
> > > around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.
> > > 
> > > I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
> > > intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
> > > mailing lists?
> > > 
> > 
> > Thanks for your reply. The proposed change is meant to benefit
> > readers of openstack-dev who do not have access to, or ability with,
> > sup/procmail/sieve/IMAP/etc., but do want to be able to be able to keep
> > up with the general flow of discussion in openstack-dev. We had a room
> > full of 10 or so cross-project minded folks, and only 3 of us felt that
> > we could keep up with the discussion threads that we even care about, much
> > less those that we might care about, but don't have time to even evaluate.
> > 
> > The idea would simply be that those directly involved in a team wouldn't
> > mind subscribing to a few more ML's to get relevant information about
> > the day to day workings of a team, but that for most people openstack-dev
> > would be sufficient.
> > 
> > The response to the suggestion tells me that we don't have agreement that
> > there is a problem. Perhaps those of us in the SWG room at the time were
> > simply falling victim to a small sample size and anecdotal data.
> > 
> > So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
> > mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
> > problems has it created for you? 
> 
> As a person who sends a lot of process-driven email to this list,
> it is not working for my needs to communicate with others.
> 
> Over the past few cycles when I was the release PTL, I always had
> a couple of PTLs say there was too much email on this list for them
> to read, and that they had not read my instructions for managing
> releases. That resulted in us having to train folks at the last
> minute, remind them of deadlines, deal with them missing deadlines,
> and otherwise increased the release team's workload.
> 
> It is possible the situation will improve now that the automation
> work is mostly complete and we expect to see fewer significant
> changes in the release workflow. That still leaves quite a few
> people regularly surprised by deadlines, though.
> 

The problem above is really the krux of it. Whether or not you can keep
up with the mailing list can be an unknown, unknown. Even now, those
who can't actually handle the mailing list traffic are in fact likely
missing this thread about whether or not people can handle the mailing
list traffic (credit fungi for pointing out this irony to me on IRC).

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from Clint Byrum's message of 2017-02-27 09:35:21 -0800:
> Excerpts from Dean Troyer's message of 2017-02-27 09:32:09 -0600:
> > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> > > This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
> > > understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
> > > those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
> > > issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
> > > makes little sense to spend time filtering.
> > 
> > Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
> > but this seems counter-intuitive to me.  I consider myself someone who
> > _does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
> > breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
> > easier.  I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
> > that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
> > around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.
> > 
> > I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
> > intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
> > mailing lists?
> > 
> 
> Thanks for your reply. The proposed change is meant to benefit
> readers of openstack-dev who do not have access to, or ability with,
> sup/procmail/sieve/IMAP/etc., but do want to be able to be able to keep
> up with the general flow of discussion in openstack-dev. We had a room
> full of 10 or so cross-project minded folks, and only 3 of us felt that
> we could keep up with the discussion threads that we even care about, much
> less those that we might care about, but don't have time to even evaluate.
> 
> The idea would simply be that those directly involved in a team wouldn't
> mind subscribing to a few more ML's to get relevant information about
> the day to day workings of a team, but that for most people openstack-dev
> would be sufficient.
> 
> The response to the suggestion tells me that we don't have agreement that
> there is a problem. Perhaps those of us in the SWG room at the time were
> simply falling victim to a small sample size and anecdotal data.
> 
> So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
> mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
> problems has it created for you? 

As a person who sends a lot of process-driven email to this list,
it is not working for my needs to communicate with others.

Over the past few cycles when I was the release PTL, I always had
a couple of PTLs say there was too much email on this list for them
to read, and that they had not read my instructions for managing
releases. That resulted in us having to train folks at the last
minute, remind them of deadlines, deal with them missing deadlines,
and otherwise increased the release team's workload.

It is possible the situation will improve now that the automation
work is mostly complete and we expect to see fewer significant
changes in the release workflow. That still leaves quite a few
people regularly surprised by deadlines, though.

Doug

> Let's refrain from making suggestions about solutions until we've agreed
> on any problems (or the lack thereof, hopefully?)
> 

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Mikhail Medvedev
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Shamail  wrote:
>
>
> The single openstack-dev list works fine for me.  I am not using anything to 
> filter either beyond what my default mail clients offer.
>
> Could we modify the question slightly to also ask how people are dealing with 
> reading through the single list?  That might help us write a page that 
> newcomers could read to get tips on how to best handle the mailing list 
> traffic (which seems to be the origin of the proposed change).
>

+1, collecting workflows people use for dealing with ml would be good.
I am new to such a high-volume list, and I have tried several things.
Now I have a few filters in gmail that mark threads I am not
interested in, but they all still go into my main inbox. I then mute
irrelevant threads. Once you did the first round of mutes, it becomes
easier. I spend 10-20 minutes daily to get through all of the threads.

I see a very marginal benefit in adding more lists.

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-02-27 12:54:33 -0500 (-0500), Shamail wrote:
[...]
> Could we modify the question slightly to also ask how people are
> dealing with reading through the single list?  That might help us
> write a page that newcomers could read to get tips on how to best
> handle the mailing list traffic (which seems to be the origin of
> the proposed change).
[...]

Many thanks to Joshua Harlow for the breadcrumbs necessary to find
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-September/104453.html
in our archives! ;)
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Sean McGinnis
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 06:26:48PM +, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> On 2017-02-27 09:35:21 -0800 (-0800), Clint Byrum wrote:
> [...]
> > do you believe that the single openstack-dev mailing list is
> > working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what problems
> > has it created for you?
> [...]
> 
> Perhaps my case is unusual, but I find the current activity on this
> ML to be working rather well for me. In particular the presence of
> discussions from a variety of vertical teams (especially new ones)
> here makes it more likely that I notice when they start to head off
> the rails from established community norms. I don't filter it at all
> and do try to skim all the threads unless my workload gets heavier
> than expected.
> 

Same for me. I would actually prefer to keep things as they are.

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-02-27 09:35:21 -0800 (-0800), Clint Byrum wrote:
[...]
> do you believe that the single openstack-dev mailing list is
> working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what problems
> has it created for you?
[...]

Perhaps my case is unusual, but I find the current activity on this
ML to be working rather well for me. In particular the presence of
discussions from a variety of vertical teams (especially new ones)
here makes it more likely that I notice when they start to head off
the rails from established community norms. I don't filter it at all
and do try to skim all the threads unless my workload gets heavier
than expected.

A few "horizontal" teams already have examples of such secondary
mailing lists and I end up subscribing to all of them as well
(Infrastructure obviously, but also Documentation, I18n, Security,
Stable Branch Maintenance...). There used to be more but as time
goes on many have been folded back into the main -dev ML for better
alignment with community-wide discussion. The ones which haven't are
either used solely for automation (reports of failed changes, Cc'd
comments from specific bug tags, et cetera) or are have a high
enough volume of threads which aren't of general interest to the
-dev subscriber base (in Infra's case we field a lot of support
requests for non-OpenStack-specific software, for example).

So yes, "business" lists are in use and seem to be working
effectively in a few situations, but these tend to all be focused on
topics which fall outside of the scope of the main development
mailing list and even then their respective participants and
moderators struggle to figure out which discussions should go where.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Clint Byrum
Excerpts from Matthew Treinish's message of 2017-02-27 13:03:56 -0500:
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 06:18:10PM +0100, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> > > Dean Troyer wrote:
> > >> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> > >> This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
> > >> understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
> > >> those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
> > >> issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
> > >> makes little sense to spend time filtering.
> > > 
> > > Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
> > > but this seems counter-intuitive to me.  I consider myself someone who
> > > _does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
> > > breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
> > > easier.  I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
> > > that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
> > > around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.
> 
> +1, I'm also someone who also tries to keep an eye on a lot of projects and
> cross project work and will find this a lot more difficult.
> 
> > > 
> > > I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
> > > intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
> > > mailing lists?
> > 
> > I'm not (yet) convinced that getting rid of 10% of ML messages (the ones
> > that would go to the -business lists) is worth the hassle of setting up
> > 50 new lists, have people subscribe to them, and have overworked PTL
> > moderate them...
> 
> I agree with this. (although TBH I don't think I can be convinced) I
> also don't think in practice it will even be close to 10% of the ML traffic
> being routed to the per project lists.
> 

To be clear, I estimate 10% of _threads_, not traffic. Most people can
mentally file a thread away by subject, even if their mail client can't.

> > 
> > Also from my experience moderating such a -business list (the
> > openstack-tc list) I can say that it takes significant effort to avoid
> > having general-interest discussions there (or to close them when they
> > start from an innocent thread). Over those 50+ -business mailing-lists
> > I'm pretty sure a few would diverge and use the convenience of isolated
> > discussions without "outsiders" potentially chiming in. And they would
> > be pretty hard to detect...
> > 
> 
> Another similar counter example is the dedicated openstack-qa list, which has
> been dead for a long time now. This was something that had similar issues,
> although it wasn't a moderated list. What ended up happening was that the
> discussions happening there were siloed and no one ever noticed anything being
> discussed there. So things had to be cross posted to get any attention.
> Discussions also ended up being duplicated between the 2 lists (like ttx said
> he ties to avoid via active moderation). Which is why we dissolved the
> openstack-qa list and just reintegrated the discussion back into 
> openstack-dev.
>

I obviously failed at stating this but I'll say it again: The business
lists would never be for discussions of anything. They're for informing
each other of facts pertaining to your project only.

I'm refraining from thinking up new solutions until we've agreed upon a
set of problems to address. Thanks for responding. :)

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Dean Troyer
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> Thanks for your reply. The proposed change is meant to benefit
> readers of openstack-dev who do not have access to, or ability with,
> sup/procmail/sieve/IMAP/etc., but do want to be able to be able to keep
> up with the general flow of discussion in openstack-dev.

FWIW, I'm using GMail, and nothing else, to achieve acceptable
filtering/sorting _for me_.  But then I am interested in at least
seeing subjects of the wider community go past and not doing sharp
filtering on specific projects.

> The idea would simply be that those directly involved in a team wouldn't
> mind subscribing to a few more ML's to get relevant information about
> the day to day workings of a team, but that for most people openstack-dev
> would be sufficient.

This makes assumptions about who wants to see those messages intended
for the additional lists.

> So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
> mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
> problems has it created for you?

It is working about as well as can be expected _for me_.  Others have
also shared a similar sentiment, including the tools they use to
achieve that result.  I fully expect that there is a significant
number of people for whom the current situation is not working well
_for them_, and some of those folk were in that room.

dt

-- 

Dean Troyer
dtro...@gmail.com

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Matthew Treinish
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 06:18:10PM +0100, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> > Dean Troyer wrote:
> >> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> >> This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
> >> understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
> >> those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
> >> issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
> >> makes little sense to spend time filtering.
> > 
> > Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
> > but this seems counter-intuitive to me.  I consider myself someone who
> > _does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
> > breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
> > easier.  I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
> > that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
> > around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.

+1, I'm also someone who also tries to keep an eye on a lot of projects and
cross project work and will find this a lot more difficult.

> > 
> > I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
> > intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
> > mailing lists?
> 
> I'm not (yet) convinced that getting rid of 10% of ML messages (the ones
> that would go to the -business lists) is worth the hassle of setting up
> 50 new lists, have people subscribe to them, and have overworked PTL
> moderate them...

I agree with this. (although TBH I don't think I can be convinced) I
also don't think in practice it will even be close to 10% of the ML traffic
being routed to the per project lists.

> 
> Also from my experience moderating such a -business list (the
> openstack-tc list) I can say that it takes significant effort to avoid
> having general-interest discussions there (or to close them when they
> start from an innocent thread). Over those 50+ -business mailing-lists
> I'm pretty sure a few would diverge and use the convenience of isolated
> discussions without "outsiders" potentially chiming in. And they would
> be pretty hard to detect...
> 

Another similar counter example is the dedicated openstack-qa list, which has
been dead for a long time now. This was something that had similar issues,
although it wasn't a moderated list. What ended up happening was that the
discussions happening there were siloed and no one ever noticed anything being
discussed there. So things had to be cross posted to get any attention.
Discussions also ended up being duplicated between the 2 lists (like ttx said
he ties to avoid via active moderation). Which is why we dissolved the
openstack-qa list and just reintegrated the discussion back into openstack-dev.

-Matt Treinish


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Shamail


> On Feb 27, 2017, at 12:35 PM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> 
> Excerpts from Dean Troyer's message of 2017-02-27 09:32:09 -0600:
>>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
>>> This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
>>> understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
>>> those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
>>> issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
>>> makes little sense to spend time filtering.
>> 
>> Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
>> but this seems counter-intuitive to me.  I consider myself someone who
>> _does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
>> breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
>> easier.  I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
>> that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
>> around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.
>> 
>> I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
>> intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
>> mailing lists?
>> 
> 
> Thanks for your reply. The proposed change is meant to benefit
> readers of openstack-dev who do not have access to, or ability with,
> sup/procmail/sieve/IMAP/etc., but do want to be able to be able to keep
> up with the general flow of discussion in openstack-dev. We had a room
> full of 10 or so cross-project minded folks, and only 3 of us felt that
> we could keep up with the discussion threads that we even care about, much
> less those that we might care about, but don't have time to even evaluate.
> 
> The idea would simply be that those directly involved in a team wouldn't
> mind subscribing to a few more ML's to get relevant information about
> the day to day workings of a team, but that for most people openstack-dev
> would be sufficient.
> 
> The response to the suggestion tells me that we don't have agreement that
> there is a problem. Perhaps those of us in the SWG room at the time were
> simply falling victim to a small sample size and anecdotal data.
> 
> So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
> mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
> problems has it created for you? 

The single openstack-dev list works fine for me.  I am not using anything to 
filter either beyond what my default mail clients offer.  

Could we modify the question slightly to also ask how people are dealing with 
reading through the single list?  That might help us write a page that 
newcomers could read to get tips on how to best handle the mailing list traffic 
(which seems to be the origin of the proposed change).
> 
> Let's refrain from making suggestions about solutions until we've agreed
> on any problems (or the lack thereof, hopefully?)
> 
> __
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Clint Byrum
Excerpts from Dean Troyer's message of 2017-02-27 09:32:09 -0600:
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> > This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
> > understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
> > those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
> > issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
> > makes little sense to spend time filtering.
> 
> Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
> but this seems counter-intuitive to me.  I consider myself someone who
> _does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
> breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
> easier.  I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
> that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
> around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.
> 
> I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
> intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
> mailing lists?
> 

Thanks for your reply. The proposed change is meant to benefit
readers of openstack-dev who do not have access to, or ability with,
sup/procmail/sieve/IMAP/etc., but do want to be able to be able to keep
up with the general flow of discussion in openstack-dev. We had a room
full of 10 or so cross-project minded folks, and only 3 of us felt that
we could keep up with the discussion threads that we even care about, much
less those that we might care about, but don't have time to even evaluate.

The idea would simply be that those directly involved in a team wouldn't
mind subscribing to a few more ML's to get relevant information about
the day to day workings of a team, but that for most people openstack-dev
would be sufficient.

The response to the suggestion tells me that we don't have agreement that
there is a problem. Perhaps those of us in the SWG room at the time were
simply falling victim to a small sample size and anecdotal data.

So, I'll ask more generally: do you believe that the single openstack-dev
mailing list is working fine and we should change nothing? If not, what
problems has it created for you? 

Let's refrain from making suggestions about solutions until we've agreed
on any problems (or the lack thereof, hopefully?)

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Morgan Fainberg
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Thierry Carrez 
wrote:

> Dean Troyer wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> >> This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
> >> understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
> >> those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
> >> issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
> >> makes little sense to spend time filtering.
> >
> > Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
> > but this seems counter-intuitive to me.  I consider myself someone who
> > _does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
> > breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
> > easier.  I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
> > that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
> > around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.
> >
> > I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
> > intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
> > mailing lists?
>
> I'm not (yet) convinced that getting rid of 10% of ML messages (the ones
> that would go to the -business lists) is worth the hassle of setting up
> 50 new lists, have people subscribe to them, and have overworked PTL
> moderate them...
>
> Also from my experience moderating such a -business list (the
> openstack-tc list) I can say that it takes significant effort to avoid
> having general-interest discussions there (or to close them when they
> start from an innocent thread). Over those 50+ -business mailing-lists
> I'm pretty sure a few would diverge and use the convenience of isolated
> discussions without "outsiders" potentially chiming in. And they would
> be pretty hard to detect...
>
>
FWIW, If I was a PTL and had a list like that to moderate on top of all the
other things, I'd just send a message that the list was going to be turned
off effectively (no messages being passed through).

Moderated lists are important for some tasks. This really doesn't seem like
a good use of someone's time. I agree with Thierry, this seems like a lot
of hassle for a very small benefit.

With all that said, I am not a PTL and would not be moderating these new
lists.

--Morgan
__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Ian Cordasco
-Original Message-
From: Thierry Carrez <thie...@openstack.org>
Reply: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
<openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>
Date: February 27, 2017 at 11:19:25
To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>
Subject:  Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only"
moderated mailing lists

> Dean Troyer wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum wrote:
> >> This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
> >> understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
> >> those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
> >> issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
> >> makes little sense to spend time filtering.
> >
> > Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
> > but this seems counter-intuitive to me. I consider myself someone who
> > _does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
> > breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
> > easier. I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
> > that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
> > around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.
> >
> > I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
> > intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
> > mailing lists?
>
> I'm not (yet) convinced that getting rid of 10% of ML messages (the ones
> that would go to the -business lists) is worth the hassle of setting up
> 50 new lists, have people subscribe to them, and have overworked PTL
> moderate them...
>
> Also from my experience moderating such a -business list (the
> openstack-tc list) I can say that it takes significant effort to avoid
> having general-interest discussions there (or to close them when they
> start from an innocent thread). Over those 50+ -business mailing-lists
> I'm pretty sure a few would diverge and use the convenience of isolated
> discussions without "outsiders" potentially chiming in. And they would
> be pretty hard to detect...

I agree and would like to point out that it will likely confuse
newcomers. Where would they send their message to about whatever
feature their management is pressuring them to develop? Most likely
they'll try openstack-{project} first and then the PTL + their team
will have to read through it and guide the person to the openstack-dev
list. Core project teams already occasionally bicker over changes
being approved that one half wouldn't have approved. This will
introduce yet another place for subjective reasoning between trusted
members of the community.

I'm not sure there's a great deal of value in those lists considering
the likely costs.

--
Ian Cordasco

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Thierry Carrez
Dean Troyer wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
>> This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
>> understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
>> those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
>> issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
>> makes little sense to spend time filtering.
> 
> Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
> but this seems counter-intuitive to me.  I consider myself someone who
> _does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
> breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
> easier.  I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
> that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
> around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.
> 
> I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
> intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
> mailing lists?

I'm not (yet) convinced that getting rid of 10% of ML messages (the ones
that would go to the -business lists) is worth the hassle of setting up
50 new lists, have people subscribe to them, and have overworked PTL
moderate them...

Also from my experience moderating such a -business list (the
openstack-tc list) I can say that it takes significant effort to avoid
having general-interest discussions there (or to close them when they
start from an innocent thread). Over those 50+ -business mailing-lists
I'm pretty sure a few would diverge and use the convenience of isolated
discussions without "outsiders" potentially chiming in. And they would
be pretty hard to detect...

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Dean Troyer
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> This is not for users who only want to see some projects. That is a well
> understood space and the mailman filtering does handle it. This is for
> those who want to monitor the overall health of the community, address
> issues with cross-project specs, or participate in so many projects it
> makes little sense to spend time filtering.

Monday morning and the caffiene is just beginning to reach my brain,
but this seems counter-intuitive to me.  I consider myself someone who
_does_ want to keep in touch with the majority of the community, and
breaking things into N additional mailing lists makes that harder, not
easier.  I _do_ include core team updates, mascots, social meetings in
that set of things to pay a little attention to here, especially
around summit/PTG/Forum/etc times.

I've seen a couple of descriptions of who this proposal is not
intended to address, who exactly is expected to benefit from more
mailing lists?

dt

-- 

Dean Troyer
dtro...@gmail.com

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Sylvain Bauza


Le 27/02/2017 15:50, Matt Riedemann a écrit :
> On 2/26/2017 11:25 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
>>
>> You have taken the folder approach, and that is a bit less complicated
>> to set up than sup+offlineimap, but still does require that you know
>> how to filter by tag. It also means that you are experiencing one of
>> the problems with cross posting whenever anybody adds a tag, as in
>> that setup each message is duplicated into each folder, or you have a
>> 'first match' sieve and then tag order becomes significant. Either way,
>> you have to flip back and forth to read a thread. Or maybe somebody has
>> an answer? Nobody in the room at the SWG session had one.
>>
> 
> I don't have the problem you're describing here. I've got a gmail
> account but I use Thunderbird for my mail client since filtering and
> foldering the dev ML in gmail is a nightmare, at least since I was
> already used to Thunderbird for another IMAP account already.
> 
> So yeah I've got lots of folders, and filters, but have sorted my
> filters such that the projects I care about the most get priority. So if
> there is a thread with several project tags on it, like the one you did
> for the nova-compute API session at the PTG, that still all just goes
> into my nova folder since that's priority #1 in my sort list in
> Thunderbird.
> 
> Over the years I tried to keep up with new folders for new
> tags/projects, but with the big tent that got impossible, so now I
> basically filter into folders the projects I really care about being on
> top of, and then the rest just goes into my default "openstack-dev"
> folder. If I find that I'm constantly missing something with a given
> tag, then I start filtering that into a new folder that's prioritized
> higher.
> 

FWIW, I use my internal mail server for tagging the emails having a
X-Topics value for the ones I want (eg. tagging "nova" for an email
having X-Topics: nova, or tagging "cross" for an email having X-Topics:
release).

Then, I'm adding the same tag in Thunderbird (each one having different
color) and magically, the list is having many colors ! \o/


Honestly, I don't understand why we should silo all our conversations
because X or Y. Once, I was also a newcomer, and the ML was already
difficult to follow. Sure, but then I used filters and wow, magically,
it worked for me !

-Sylvain
(and please, *do not* Slack)

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Matt Riedemann

On 2/26/2017 11:25 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:


You have taken the folder approach, and that is a bit less complicated
to set up than sup+offlineimap, but still does require that you know
how to filter by tag. It also means that you are experiencing one of
the problems with cross posting whenever anybody adds a tag, as in
that setup each message is duplicated into each folder, or you have a
'first match' sieve and then tag order becomes significant. Either way,
you have to flip back and forth to read a thread. Or maybe somebody has
an answer? Nobody in the room at the SWG session had one.



I don't have the problem you're describing here. I've got a gmail 
account but I use Thunderbird for my mail client since filtering and 
foldering the dev ML in gmail is a nightmare, at least since I was 
already used to Thunderbird for another IMAP account already.


So yeah I've got lots of folders, and filters, but have sorted my 
filters such that the projects I care about the most get priority. So if 
there is a thread with several project tags on it, like the one you did 
for the nova-compute API session at the PTG, that still all just goes 
into my nova folder since that's priority #1 in my sort list in Thunderbird.


Over the years I tried to keep up with new folders for new 
tags/projects, but with the big tent that got impossible, so now I 
basically filter into folders the projects I really care about being on 
top of, and then the rest just goes into my default "openstack-dev" 
folder. If I find that I'm constantly missing something with a given 
tag, then I start filtering that into a new folder that's prioritized 
higher.


--

Thanks,

Matt Riedemann

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Clint Byrum
Excerpts from Luigi Toscano's message of 2017-02-27 03:02:45 -0500:
> 
> - Original Message -
> > Excerpts from Shamail Tahir's message of 2017-02-27 00:44:44 -0500:
> > > Hi Clint,
> > > 
> > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 12:25 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Excerpts from Matt Riedemann's message of 2017-02-26 19:48:50 -0600:
> > > > > On 2/26/2017 6:52 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
> > > > > > During some productive discussions in the Stewardship Working Group
> > > > > > PTG
> > > > > > room, the subject of the mailing list came up. The usual questions
> > > > > > around whether or not we should have per-project lists came up and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > reasons we don't were re-affirmed. To recap those reasons:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   * Cross posting is the pits
> > > > > >   * People don't always know at the beginning of a thread that a
> > > > > > discussion will need to go wider, leading to silos and 
> > > > > > confusion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So we turned to ways to help reduce peoples' load while reading
> > > > > > e-mail,
> > > > > > since many (most?) tend to opt out of reading openstack-dev.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are a number of ways that we can help, including teaching
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > to have more efficient workflows and use specific mail reading tools
> > > > > > (don't worry, we're not adding an NNTP gateway.. yet). But one that
> > > > > > received positive feedback from the room was to have moderated
> > > > > > business-only mailing lists for each project.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Basically, there are things that we _do_ know will not go wider when
> > > > > > the thread begins. Just running through the threads on the February
> > > > > > thread index, there are a few obvious classes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   * Mascots
> > > > > >   * Social meetups
> > > > > >   * Meeting logistics
> > > > > >   * Core team membership
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > I'm curious as to how much of the traffic (such as the examples given)
> > > generates message fatigue on new users but I do appreciate that we are
> > > trying to find solutions to make it easier to enter into the mailing lists
> > > around OpenStack without having to resort to digests.
> > > 
> > 
> > I think it's worth analyzing it, if somebody has time. I do not. My wild
> > ass guess is between 1 and 5 percent of all messages, but probably more
> > like 5-10 percent of threads, as a lot of them are the shorter, less
> > interesting threads.
> > 
> > These seem like small numbers, but cognitive load is not linear and the
> > number of threads people end up reading varies whether or not they use
> > tags.
> 
> I share the feeling too that those messages are the minority of the total 
> amount of real discussions, so moving them away won't address the problem and 
> lead to more complication to the rest of the world.
> 

Not every solution is a force multiplier. Some things are just fine
tuning. And again, cognitive load is not linear. If you are in a single
project silo, sure, these are easy to tune out. If you are trying to
work cross-project, you have to spend more time on each thread, even if
it is obvious.

> > 
> > > > > There are likely others. The idea is that these messages would go into
> > > > > a
> > > > > > ${project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org. Said list would be 
> > > > > > moderated
> > > > by
> > > > > > a team of the PTL's choosing, and we would admonish moderators to
> > > > reject
> > > > > > soundly any threads not obviously single project business related.
> > > >
> > > In this approach, we could send messages that fall within the ${
> > > project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org to the dev ML as well.  This would
> > > allow people who want only the ${project}-business news to get the content
> > > without having to get all messages from the dev ML but at the same time
> > > allow threads to be available to both subscribers (dev and
> > > ${project}-business}.
> > > 
> > > I hope we still advocate for subscribing to the openstack-dev mailing list
> > > even if a contributor is only starting with a single project (and not
> > > interested in cross-project things) because it allows for people to see
> > > conversations they might have expertise in or find a new project they want
> > > to contribute to based on learning something new about it.
> > > 
> > 
> > Wow, I must have failed in my wording ,sorry about that, because you
> > got it 100% backwards. The idea is that everyone stays in openstack-dev
> > for _all_ discussions (single-project as well). Only the most mundane
> > but necessary emails go on per-project "business lists". So there would
> > be zero point in ever subscribing to the business lists without also
> > subscribing to openstack-dev, and likewise, republishing business lists
> > to openstack-dev would defeat the entire point.
> 
> But why not educate people about the *topic* filtering that you can enable on 
> mailman directly?
> You don't need 

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-27 Thread Luigi Toscano


- Original Message -
> Excerpts from Shamail Tahir's message of 2017-02-27 00:44:44 -0500:
> > Hi Clint,
> > 
> > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 12:25 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> > 
> > > Excerpts from Matt Riedemann's message of 2017-02-26 19:48:50 -0600:
> > > > On 2/26/2017 6:52 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
> > > > > During some productive discussions in the Stewardship Working Group
> > > > > PTG
> > > > > room, the subject of the mailing list came up. The usual questions
> > > > > around whether or not we should have per-project lists came up and
> > > > > the
> > > > > reasons we don't were re-affirmed. To recap those reasons:
> > > > >
> > > > >   * Cross posting is the pits
> > > > >   * People don't always know at the beginning of a thread that a
> > > > > discussion will need to go wider, leading to silos and confusion.
> > > > >
> > > > > So we turned to ways to help reduce peoples' load while reading
> > > > > e-mail,
> > > > > since many (most?) tend to opt out of reading openstack-dev.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are a number of ways that we can help, including teaching
> > > > > people
> > > > > to have more efficient workflows and use specific mail reading tools
> > > > > (don't worry, we're not adding an NNTP gateway.. yet). But one that
> > > > > received positive feedback from the room was to have moderated
> > > > > business-only mailing lists for each project.
> > > > >
> > > > > Basically, there are things that we _do_ know will not go wider when
> > > > > the thread begins. Just running through the threads on the February
> > > > > thread index, there are a few obvious classes:
> > > > >
> > > > >   * Mascots
> > > > >   * Social meetups
> > > > >   * Meeting logistics
> > > > >   * Core team membership
> > > > >
> > >
> > I'm curious as to how much of the traffic (such as the examples given)
> > generates message fatigue on new users but I do appreciate that we are
> > trying to find solutions to make it easier to enter into the mailing lists
> > around OpenStack without having to resort to digests.
> > 
> 
> I think it's worth analyzing it, if somebody has time. I do not. My wild
> ass guess is between 1 and 5 percent of all messages, but probably more
> like 5-10 percent of threads, as a lot of them are the shorter, less
> interesting threads.
> 
> These seem like small numbers, but cognitive load is not linear and the
> number of threads people end up reading varies whether or not they use
> tags.

I share the feeling too that those messages are the minority of the total 
amount of real discussions, so moving them away won't address the problem and 
lead to more complication to the rest of the world.

> 
> > > > There are likely others. The idea is that these messages would go into
> > > > a
> > > > > ${project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org. Said list would be moderated
> > > by
> > > > > a team of the PTL's choosing, and we would admonish moderators to
> > > reject
> > > > > soundly any threads not obviously single project business related.
> > >
> > In this approach, we could send messages that fall within the ${
> > project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org to the dev ML as well.  This would
> > allow people who want only the ${project}-business news to get the content
> > without having to get all messages from the dev ML but at the same time
> > allow threads to be available to both subscribers (dev and
> > ${project}-business}.
> > 
> > I hope we still advocate for subscribing to the openstack-dev mailing list
> > even if a contributor is only starting with a single project (and not
> > interested in cross-project things) because it allows for people to see
> > conversations they might have expertise in or find a new project they want
> > to contribute to based on learning something new about it.
> > 
> 
> Wow, I must have failed in my wording ,sorry about that, because you
> got it 100% backwards. The idea is that everyone stays in openstack-dev
> for _all_ discussions (single-project as well). Only the most mundane
> but necessary emails go on per-project "business lists". So there would
> be zero point in ever subscribing to the business lists without also
> subscribing to openstack-dev, and likewise, republishing business lists
> to openstack-dev would defeat the entire point.

But why not educate people about the *topic* filtering that you can enable on 
mailman directly?
You don't need filters on your client, just go to your mailman page and select 
the topics.

Ciao
-- 
Luigi

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-26 Thread Shamail Tahir
Thanks Clint!

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 2:41 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:

> Excerpts from Shamail Tahir's message of 2017-02-27 00:44:44 -0500:
> > Hi Clint,
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 12:25 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> >
> > > Excerpts from Matt Riedemann's message of 2017-02-26 19:48:50 -0600:
> > > > On 2/26/2017 6:52 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
> > > > > During some productive discussions in the Stewardship Working
> Group PTG
> > > > > room, the subject of the mailing list came up. The usual questions
> > > > > around whether or not we should have per-project lists came up and
> the
> > > > > reasons we don't were re-affirmed. To recap those reasons:
> > > > >
> > > > >   * Cross posting is the pits
> > > > >   * People don't always know at the beginning of a thread that a
> > > > > discussion will need to go wider, leading to silos and
> confusion.
> > > > >
> > > > > So we turned to ways to help reduce peoples' load while reading
> e-mail,
> > > > > since many (most?) tend to opt out of reading openstack-dev.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are a number of ways that we can help, including teaching
> people
> > > > > to have more efficient workflows and use specific mail reading
> tools
> > > > > (don't worry, we're not adding an NNTP gateway.. yet). But one that
> > > > > received positive feedback from the room was to have moderated
> > > > > business-only mailing lists for each project.
> > > > >
> > > > > Basically, there are things that we _do_ know will not go wider
> when
> > > > > the thread begins. Just running through the threads on the February
> > > > > thread index, there are a few obvious classes:
> > > > >
> > > > >   * Mascots
> > > > >   * Social meetups
> > > > >   * Meeting logistics
> > > > >   * Core team membership
> > > > >
> > >
> > I'm curious as to how much of the traffic (such as the examples given)
> > generates message fatigue on new users but I do appreciate that we are
> > trying to find solutions to make it easier to enter into the mailing
> lists
> > around OpenStack without having to resort to digests.
> >
>
> I think it's worth analyzing it, if somebody has time. I do not. My wild
> ass guess is between 1 and 5 percent of all messages, but probably more
> like 5-10 percent of threads, as a lot of them are the shorter, less
> interesting threads.
>
> These seem like small numbers, but cognitive load is not linear and the
> number of threads people end up reading varies whether or not they use
> tags.
>
+1


>
> > > > There are likely others. The idea is that these messages would go
> into a
> > > > > ${project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org. Said list would be
> moderated
> > > by
> > > > > a team of the PTL's choosing, and we would admonish moderators to
> > > reject
> > > > > soundly any threads not obviously single project business related.
> > >
> > In this approach, we could send messages that fall within the ${
> > project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org to the dev ML as well.  This would
> > allow people who want only the ${project}-business news to get the
> content
> > without having to get all messages from the dev ML but at the same time
> > allow threads to be available to both subscribers (dev and
> > ${project}-business}.
> >
> > I hope we still advocate for subscribing to the openstack-dev mailing
> list
> > even if a contributor is only starting with a single project (and not
> > interested in cross-project things) because it allows for people to see
> > conversations they might have expertise in or find a new project they
> want
> > to contribute to based on learning something new about it.
> >
>
> Wow, I must have failed in my wording ,sorry about that, because you
> got it 100% backwards. The idea is that everyone stays in openstack-dev
> for _all_ discussions (single-project as well). Only the most mundane
> but necessary emails go on per-project "business lists". So there would
> be zero point in ever subscribing to the business lists without also
> subscribing to openstack-dev, and likewise, republishing business lists
> to openstack-dev would defeat the entire point.
>

Makes sense!  Sorry if I missed the intent.  In this case, I am in
agreement with the original approach as well... my (unfounded) concern was
about what it would do to openstack-dev traffic.

>
> __
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
>



-- 
Thanks,
Shamail Tahir
t: @ShamailXD
tz: Eastern Time
__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-26 Thread Clint Byrum
Excerpts from Shamail Tahir's message of 2017-02-27 00:44:44 -0500:
> Hi Clint,
> 
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 12:25 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:
> 
> > Excerpts from Matt Riedemann's message of 2017-02-26 19:48:50 -0600:
> > > On 2/26/2017 6:52 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
> > > > During some productive discussions in the Stewardship Working Group PTG
> > > > room, the subject of the mailing list came up. The usual questions
> > > > around whether or not we should have per-project lists came up and the
> > > > reasons we don't were re-affirmed. To recap those reasons:
> > > >
> > > >   * Cross posting is the pits
> > > >   * People don't always know at the beginning of a thread that a
> > > > discussion will need to go wider, leading to silos and confusion.
> > > >
> > > > So we turned to ways to help reduce peoples' load while reading e-mail,
> > > > since many (most?) tend to opt out of reading openstack-dev.
> > > >
> > > > There are a number of ways that we can help, including teaching people
> > > > to have more efficient workflows and use specific mail reading tools
> > > > (don't worry, we're not adding an NNTP gateway.. yet). But one that
> > > > received positive feedback from the room was to have moderated
> > > > business-only mailing lists for each project.
> > > >
> > > > Basically, there are things that we _do_ know will not go wider when
> > > > the thread begins. Just running through the threads on the February
> > > > thread index, there are a few obvious classes:
> > > >
> > > >   * Mascots
> > > >   * Social meetups
> > > >   * Meeting logistics
> > > >   * Core team membership
> > > >
> >
> I'm curious as to how much of the traffic (such as the examples given)
> generates message fatigue on new users but I do appreciate that we are
> trying to find solutions to make it easier to enter into the mailing lists
> around OpenStack without having to resort to digests.
> 

I think it's worth analyzing it, if somebody has time. I do not. My wild
ass guess is between 1 and 5 percent of all messages, but probably more
like 5-10 percent of threads, as a lot of them are the shorter, less
interesting threads.

These seem like small numbers, but cognitive load is not linear and the
number of threads people end up reading varies whether or not they use
tags.

> > > There are likely others. The idea is that these messages would go into a
> > > > ${project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org. Said list would be moderated
> > by
> > > > a team of the PTL's choosing, and we would admonish moderators to
> > reject
> > > > soundly any threads not obviously single project business related.
> >
> In this approach, we could send messages that fall within the ${
> project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org to the dev ML as well.  This would
> allow people who want only the ${project}-business news to get the content
> without having to get all messages from the dev ML but at the same time
> allow threads to be available to both subscribers (dev and
> ${project}-business}.
> 
> I hope we still advocate for subscribing to the openstack-dev mailing list
> even if a contributor is only starting with a single project (and not
> interested in cross-project things) because it allows for people to see
> conversations they might have expertise in or find a new project they want
> to contribute to based on learning something new about it.
> 

Wow, I must have failed in my wording ,sorry about that, because you
got it 100% backwards. The idea is that everyone stays in openstack-dev
for _all_ discussions (single-project as well). Only the most mundane
but necessary emails go on per-project "business lists". So there would
be zero point in ever subscribing to the business lists without also
subscribing to openstack-dev, and likewise, republishing business lists
to openstack-dev would defeat the entire point.

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-26 Thread Shamail Tahir
Hi Clint,


On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 12:25 AM, Clint Byrum  wrote:

> Excerpts from Matt Riedemann's message of 2017-02-26 19:48:50 -0600:
> > On 2/26/2017 6:52 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
> > > During some productive discussions in the Stewardship Working Group PTG
> > > room, the subject of the mailing list came up. The usual questions
> > > around whether or not we should have per-project lists came up and the
> > > reasons we don't were re-affirmed. To recap those reasons:
> > >
> > >   * Cross posting is the pits
> > >   * People don't always know at the beginning of a thread that a
> > > discussion will need to go wider, leading to silos and confusion.
> > >
> > > So we turned to ways to help reduce peoples' load while reading e-mail,
> > > since many (most?) tend to opt out of reading openstack-dev.
> > >
> > > There are a number of ways that we can help, including teaching people
> > > to have more efficient workflows and use specific mail reading tools
> > > (don't worry, we're not adding an NNTP gateway.. yet). But one that
> > > received positive feedback from the room was to have moderated
> > > business-only mailing lists for each project.
> > >
> > > Basically, there are things that we _do_ know will not go wider when
> > > the thread begins. Just running through the threads on the February
> > > thread index, there are a few obvious classes:
> > >
> > >   * Mascots
> > >   * Social meetups
> > >   * Meeting logistics
> > >   * Core team membership
> > >
>
I'm curious as to how much of the traffic (such as the examples given)
generates message fatigue on new users but I do appreciate that we are
trying to find solutions to make it easier to enter into the mailing lists
around OpenStack without having to resort to digests.

> > There are likely others. The idea is that these messages would go into a
> > > ${project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org. Said list would be moderated
> by
> > > a team of the PTL's choosing, and we would admonish moderators to
> reject
> > > soundly any threads not obviously single project business related.
>
In this approach, we could send messages that fall within the ${
project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org to the dev ML as well.  This would
allow people who want only the ${project}-business news to get the content
without having to get all messages from the dev ML but at the same time
allow threads to be available to both subscribers (dev and
${project}-business}.

I hope we still advocate for subscribing to the openstack-dev mailing list
even if a contributor is only starting with a single project (and not
interested in cross-project things) because it allows for people to see
conversations they might have expertise in or find a new project they want
to contribute to based on learning something new about it.

> >
> > > Thoughts? If this sounds good, I'll go ahead and write up a spec.
> > > (openstack-specs?)
> > >
> > > 
> __
> > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:
> unsubscribe
> > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
> > >
> >
> > So business as in like parliamentary procedure business and not business
> > as in synergizing growth for the bottom line in a global economy?
> >
>
> Parliamentary procedure, as the original message suggests. Things that
> are not likely to grow into something bigger.
>
> > I care about more than just the nova project, so I also pay attention to
> > non-nova specific stuff in other projects, mostly neutron, cinder,
> > ironic, glance, keystone and QA. If I want to know about their business
> > (can we say businazz to jazz it up?) I not only need to be in the
> > openstack-dev list but also their project-specific list? It's all going
> > to filter to the same folders I already have, but then I have to be in
> > several more mailing lists.
> >
> > Who is the actual audience for this change? Is it to get the mundane
> > every day project stuff out of the openstack-dev list so people don't
> > have to read it and if so, who are those people and why can't they just
> > filter or ignore threads they don't care about properly?
> >
> > I'm a -1 on this unless I'm missing how it makes things much much better
> > somehow.
> >
>
> This isn't for you, or for me.
>
> For instance, I use a highly efficient mail workflow with offlineimap and
> "sup" that lets me read the whole mailing list and aggressively filter
> threads without losing my mind and while still retaining useful search
> ability. I do not use folders other than putting anything with a List-Id
> into "lists". I published a little bit of it here btw:
>
> https://github.com/SpamapS/ferk (Firehose Email Reading Kit)
>
> But I never finished publishing docs or useful templates for sup config.
>
> And really, I don't expect every new participant in OpenStack to adopt
> such a 

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-26 Thread Clint Byrum
Excerpts from Matt Riedemann's message of 2017-02-26 19:48:50 -0600:
> On 2/26/2017 6:52 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
> > During some productive discussions in the Stewardship Working Group PTG
> > room, the subject of the mailing list came up. The usual questions
> > around whether or not we should have per-project lists came up and the
> > reasons we don't were re-affirmed. To recap those reasons:
> >
> >   * Cross posting is the pits
> >   * People don't always know at the beginning of a thread that a
> > discussion will need to go wider, leading to silos and confusion.
> >
> > So we turned to ways to help reduce peoples' load while reading e-mail,
> > since many (most?) tend to opt out of reading openstack-dev.
> >
> > There are a number of ways that we can help, including teaching people
> > to have more efficient workflows and use specific mail reading tools
> > (don't worry, we're not adding an NNTP gateway.. yet). But one that
> > received positive feedback from the room was to have moderated
> > business-only mailing lists for each project.
> >
> > Basically, there are things that we _do_ know will not go wider when
> > the thread begins. Just running through the threads on the February
> > thread index, there are a few obvious classes:
> >
> >   * Mascots
> >   * Social meetups
> >   * Meeting logistics
> >   * Core team membership
> >
> > There are likely others. The idea is that these messages would go into a
> > ${project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org. Said list would be moderated by
> > a team of the PTL's choosing, and we would admonish moderators to reject
> > soundly any threads not obviously single project business related.
> >
> > Thoughts? If this sounds good, I'll go ahead and write up a spec.
> > (openstack-specs?)
> >
> > __
> > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
> >
> 
> So business as in like parliamentary procedure business and not business 
> as in synergizing growth for the bottom line in a global economy?
> 

Parliamentary procedure, as the original message suggests. Things that
are not likely to grow into something bigger.

> I care about more than just the nova project, so I also pay attention to 
> non-nova specific stuff in other projects, mostly neutron, cinder, 
> ironic, glance, keystone and QA. If I want to know about their business 
> (can we say businazz to jazz it up?) I not only need to be in the 
> openstack-dev list but also their project-specific list? It's all going 
> to filter to the same folders I already have, but then I have to be in 
> several more mailing lists.
> 
> Who is the actual audience for this change? Is it to get the mundane 
> every day project stuff out of the openstack-dev list so people don't 
> have to read it and if so, who are those people and why can't they just 
> filter or ignore threads they don't care about properly?
> 
> I'm a -1 on this unless I'm missing how it makes things much much better 
> somehow.
> 

This isn't for you, or for me.

For instance, I use a highly efficient mail workflow with offlineimap and
"sup" that lets me read the whole mailing list and aggressively filter
threads without losing my mind and while still retaining useful search
ability. I do not use folders other than putting anything with a List-Id
into "lists". I published a little bit of it here btw:

https://github.com/SpamapS/ferk (Firehose Email Reading Kit)

But I never finished publishing docs or useful templates for sup config.

And really, I don't expect every new participant in OpenStack to adopt
such a workflow. It's taken me at least 6 years to get it dialed in and
it's tuned to not only OpenStack but Debian and other smaller projects.

You have taken the folder approach, and that is a bit less complicated
to set up than sup+offlineimap, but still does require that you know
how to filter by tag. It also means that you are experiencing one of
the problems with cross posting whenever anybody adds a tag, as in
that setup each message is duplicated into each folder, or you have a
'first match' sieve and then tag order becomes significant. Either way,
you have to flip back and forth to read a thread. Or maybe somebody has
an answer? Nobody in the room at the SWG session had one.

Anyway, that's fine tuning for old-hats at managing openstack-dev. We
are still throwing hundreds of messages per week at anyone who dares to
try and be cross-project. For those involved with a few projects, it's
relatively simple to pick a few business lists to keep up with _once
you have reached that level of involvement_. Until then, what you want
on openstack-dev is development discussions.

Nobody is saying you can't announce things about each project on
the list. But there's obvious stuff that is just logistics about an

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-26 Thread Matt Riedemann

On 2/26/2017 6:52 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:

During some productive discussions in the Stewardship Working Group PTG
room, the subject of the mailing list came up. The usual questions
around whether or not we should have per-project lists came up and the
reasons we don't were re-affirmed. To recap those reasons:

  * Cross posting is the pits
  * People don't always know at the beginning of a thread that a
discussion will need to go wider, leading to silos and confusion.

So we turned to ways to help reduce peoples' load while reading e-mail,
since many (most?) tend to opt out of reading openstack-dev.

There are a number of ways that we can help, including teaching people
to have more efficient workflows and use specific mail reading tools
(don't worry, we're not adding an NNTP gateway.. yet). But one that
received positive feedback from the room was to have moderated
business-only mailing lists for each project.

Basically, there are things that we _do_ know will not go wider when
the thread begins. Just running through the threads on the February
thread index, there are a few obvious classes:

  * Mascots
  * Social meetups
  * Meeting logistics
  * Core team membership

There are likely others. The idea is that these messages would go into a
${project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org. Said list would be moderated by
a team of the PTL's choosing, and we would admonish moderators to reject
soundly any threads not obviously single project business related.

Thoughts? If this sounds good, I'll go ahead and write up a spec.
(openstack-specs?)

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev



So business as in like parliamentary procedure business and not business 
as in synergizing growth for the bottom line in a global economy?


I care about more than just the nova project, so I also pay attention to 
non-nova specific stuff in other projects, mostly neutron, cinder, 
ironic, glance, keystone and QA. If I want to know about their business 
(can we say businazz to jazz it up?) I not only need to be in the 
openstack-dev list but also their project-specific list? It's all going 
to filter to the same folders I already have, but then I have to be in 
several more mailing lists.


Who is the actual audience for this change? Is it to get the mundane 
every day project stuff out of the openstack-dev list so people don't 
have to read it and if so, who are those people and why can't they just 
filter or ignore threads they don't care about properly?


I'm a -1 on this unless I'm missing how it makes things much much better 
somehow.


--

Thanks,

Matt Riedemann

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


[openstack-dev] [all][swg] per-project "Business only" moderated mailing lists

2017-02-26 Thread Clint Byrum
During some productive discussions in the Stewardship Working Group PTG
room, the subject of the mailing list came up. The usual questions
around whether or not we should have per-project lists came up and the
reasons we don't were re-affirmed. To recap those reasons:

  * Cross posting is the pits
  * People don't always know at the beginning of a thread that a
discussion will need to go wider, leading to silos and confusion.

So we turned to ways to help reduce peoples' load while reading e-mail,
since many (most?) tend to opt out of reading openstack-dev.

There are a number of ways that we can help, including teaching people
to have more efficient workflows and use specific mail reading tools
(don't worry, we're not adding an NNTP gateway.. yet). But one that
received positive feedback from the room was to have moderated
business-only mailing lists for each project.

Basically, there are things that we _do_ know will not go wider when
the thread begins. Just running through the threads on the February
thread index, there are a few obvious classes:

  * Mascots
  * Social meetups
  * Meeting logistics
  * Core team membership

There are likely others. The idea is that these messages would go into a
${project}-busin...@lists.openstack.org. Said list would be moderated by
a team of the PTL's choosing, and we would admonish moderators to reject
soundly any threads not obviously single project business related.

Thoughts? If this sounds good, I'll go ahead and write up a spec.
(openstack-specs?)

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev