Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-06-22 06:11:39 -0400 (-0400), Sean Dague wrote: [...] > It doesn't look like either (pinned repos or topics) are currently > available over the API (topics in get format are experimental, but no > edit as of yet). The pinned repositories aren't such a big deal, we're > talking a handful

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-06-22 05:54:41 -0400 (-0400), Sean Dague wrote: > On 06/22/2017 04:33 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: [...] > > Jeremy is right that the GitHub mirroring goes beyond an infrastructure > > service: it's a marketing exercise, an online presence more than a > > technical need. As such it needs to

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Thierry Carrez
Samuel Cassiba wrote: >> On Jun 22, 2017, at 03:01, Sean Dague wrote: >> The micro repositories for config management and packaging create this >> overwhelming wall of projects from the outside. I realize that git repos >> are cheap from a dev perspective, but they are expensive

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Samuel Cassiba
> On Jun 22, 2017, at 03:01, Sean Dague wrote: > > On 06/21/2017 09:52 PM, Chris Hoge wrote: >> >>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 2:35 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: >>> >>> On 2017-06-21 13:52:11 -0500 (-0500), Lauren Sell wrote: >>> [...] To make this

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Sean Dague
On 06/21/2017 05:35 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2017-06-21 13:52:11 -0500 (-0500), Lauren Sell wrote: > [...] >> To make this actionable...Github is just a mirror of our >> repositories, but for better or worse it's the way most people in >> the world explore software. If you look at OpenStack

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Flavio Percoco
On 21/06/17 16:27 -0400, Sean Dague wrote: On 06/21/2017 02:52 PM, Lauren Sell wrote: Two things we should address: 1) Make it more clear which projects are “officially” part of OpenStack. It’s possible to find that information, but it’s not obvious. I am one of the people who laments the

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Sean Dague
On 06/21/2017 09:52 PM, Chris Hoge wrote: > >> On Jun 21, 2017, at 2:35 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: >> >> On 2017-06-21 13:52:11 -0500 (-0500), Lauren Sell wrote: >> [...] >>> To make this actionable...Github is just a mirror of our >>> repositories, but for better or worse it's

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Sean Dague
On 06/22/2017 04:33 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Sean Dague wrote: >> [...] >> I think even if it was only solvable on github, and not cgit, it would >> help a lot. The idea of using github project tags and pinning suggested >> by Lauren seems great to me. >> >> If we replicated the pinning on

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Thierry Carrez
Jeremy Stanley wrote: > [...] > This is one of my biggest concerns as well where high-cost (in the > sense of increasingly valuable Infra team member time) solutions are > being tossed around to solve the "what's official?" dilemma, while > not taking into account that the overwhelming majority of

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-22 Thread Thierry Carrez
Sean Dague wrote: > [...] > I think even if it was only solvable on github, and not cgit, it would > help a lot. The idea of using github project tags and pinning suggested > by Lauren seems great to me. > > If we replicated the pinning on github.com/openstack to "popular > projects" here -

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Chris Hoge
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 2:35 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > > On 2017-06-21 13:52:11 -0500 (-0500), Lauren Sell wrote: > [...] >> To make this actionable...Github is just a mirror of our >> repositories, but for better or worse it's the way most people in >> the world explore

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-06-21 16:27:14 -0400 (-0400), Sean Dague wrote: [...] > I'd still also like to see us using that structure well, and > mirroring only things we tag as official to github.com/openstack, > and the rest to /openstack-ecosystem or something. [...] I can understand the sentiment, but we'd need

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-06-21 13:52:11 -0500 (-0500), Lauren Sell wrote: [...] > To make this actionable...Github is just a mirror of our > repositories, but for better or worse it's the way most people in > the world explore software. If you look at OpenStack on Github > now, it’s impossible to tell which

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Sean Dague
On 06/21/2017 02:52 PM, Lauren Sell wrote: > Two things we should address: > > 1) Make it more clear which projects are “officially” part of > OpenStack. It’s possible to find that information, but it’s not obvious. > I am one of the people who laments the demise of stackforge…it was very > clear

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Lauren Sell
Several folks on this thread have talked about the different constituencies and problems we’re trying to solve with naming. Most of the people following this thread understand all of the terminology and governance we’ve defined, but that's still a very small percentage of people who care about

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-06-19 08:42:04 -0700 (-0700), Chris Hoge wrote: [...] > Why not bring back the name Stackforge and apply that to > unofficial projects? It’s short, descriptive, and unambiguous. [...] Logistical points aside, that name is strikingly similar to another and previously much more popular but

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-06-21 09:20:42 -0700 (-0700), Clark Boylan wrote: [...] > A few days ago I suggested a variant of Thierry's suggestion below. Get > rid of the 'openstack' prefix entirely for hosting and use stackforge > for everything. Then officially governed OpenStack projects are hosted > just like any

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Chris Hoge
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Clark Boylan wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017, at 08:48 AM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote: >> On 06/19/2017 05:42 PM, Chris Hoge wrote: >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 5:57 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Sean Dague

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Clark Boylan
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017, at 08:48 AM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote: > On 06/19/2017 05:42 PM, Chris Hoge wrote: > > > > > >> On Jun 15, 2017, at 5:57 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > >> > >> Sean Dague wrote: > >>> [...] > >>> I think those are all fine. The other term that popped into

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Dmitry Tantsur
On 06/19/2017 05:42 PM, Chris Hoge wrote: On Jun 15, 2017, at 5:57 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Sean Dague wrote: [...] I think those are all fine. The other term that popped into my head was "Friends of OpenStack" as a way to describe the openstack-hosted efforts that

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread joehuang
t; stack here. Best Regards Chaoyi Huang (joehuang) From: Flavio Percoco [fla...@redhat.com] Sent: 21 June 2017 15:44 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "bigtent"

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread Flavio Percoco
Flavio Percoco [fla...@redhat.com] Sent: 20 June 2017 17:44 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "bigtent" terminology On 20/06/17 00:33 +, joehuang wrote: I think openstack community provide

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-21 Thread joehuang
...@redhat.com] Sent: 20 June 2017 17:44 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "bigtent" terminology On 20/06/17 00:33 +, joehuang wrote: >I think openstack community provides a flat project mar

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-20 Thread Flavio Percoco
On 20/06/17 00:33 +, joehuang wrote: I think openstack community provides a flat project market place for infrastructure is good enough: all projects are just some "goods" in the market place, let the cloud operators to select projects from the project market place for his own

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-19 Thread joehuang
tack is "OPEN" stack. Best Regards Chaoyi Huang (joehuang) From: Matt Riedemann [mriede...@gmail.com] Sent: 19 June 2017 22:56 To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent"

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-19 Thread Chris Friesen
On 06/16/2017 02:57 AM, Julien Danjou wrote: On Thu, Jun 15 2017, Doug Hellmann wrote: One of the *most* common complaints the TC gets from outside the contributor community is that people do not understand what projects are part of OpenStack and what parts are not. We have a clear definition

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-19 Thread Graham Hayes
On 19/06/17 16:11, Jay Pipes wrote: > On 06/16/2017 05:18 AM, Graham Hayes wrote: >> On 15/06/17 22:35, Ed Leafe wrote: >>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: >>> For me it's one of the most annoying yet challenging/interesting aspects: free software

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-19 Thread Chris Hoge
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 5:57 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > > Sean Dague wrote: >> [...] >> I think those are all fine. The other term that popped into my head was >> "Friends of OpenStack" as a way to describe the openstack-hosted efforts >> that aren't official projects. It

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-19 Thread Jay Pipes
On 06/16/2017 05:18 AM, Graham Hayes wrote: On 15/06/17 22:35, Ed Leafe wrote: On Jun 15, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: For me it's one of the most annoying yet challenging/interesting aspects: free software development is as much about community and politics as

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-19 Thread Matt Riedemann
On 6/17/2017 10:55 AM, Jay Bryant wrote: I am responding under Tim's note because I think it gets at what we really want to communicate and takes me to what we have presented in OUI. We have Core OpenStack Projects and then a whole community of additional projects that support cloud

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-19 Thread gordon chung
On 19/06/17 07:32 AM, Flavio Percoco wrote: >> as an aside, in telemetry project, we did something somewhat similar >> when we renamed/rebranded to telemetry from ceilometer. we wrote several >> notes to the ML, had a few blog posts, fixed the docs, mentioned the new >> project structure in our

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-19 Thread Flavio Percoco
On 16/06/17 04:32 +, gordon chung wrote: On 15/06/17 06:28 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: i see, so this is less an existential question of 'what is openstack' > and more 'how to differentiate governance projects from a random repo > created last weekend' > > this might have been just me, but

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-19 Thread Andrea Frittoli
On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2017-06-15 11:15:36 +0200 (+0200), Thierry Carrez wrote: > [...] > > I'd like to propose that we introduce a new concept: "OpenStack-Hosted > > projects". There would be "OpenStack projects" on one side, and > >

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-17 Thread Jay Bryant
ent Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > Date: Thursday, 15 June 2017 at 14:57 > To: "openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org > > > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away fr

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-16 Thread Julien Danjou
On Fri, Jun 16 2017, Thierry Carrez wrote: > I should have made it clearer in my original post that this discussion > actually originated at the Board+TC+UC workshop in Boston, as part of > the "better communicating what is openstack" subgroup. This is still such a vague problem statement that

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-16 Thread Thierry Carrez
Matt Riedemann wrote: > On 6/15/2017 9:57 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: >> Obviously we are not the target audience for that term. I think we are >> deep enough in OpenStack and technically-focused enough to see through >> that. But reality is, the majority of the rest of the world is confused, >> and

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-16 Thread Graham Hayes
On 15/06/17 22:35, Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jun 15, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > >> For me it's one of the most annoying yet challenging/interesting >> aspects: free software development is as much about community and >> politics as it is actual software development

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-16 Thread Julien Danjou
On Thu, Jun 15 2017, Doug Hellmann wrote: > One of the *most* common complaints the TC gets from outside the > contributor community is that people do not understand what projects > are part of OpenStack and what parts are not. We have a clear > definition of that in our minds (the projects that

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-16 Thread Julien Danjou
On Fri, Jun 16 2017, gordon chung wrote: > *sigh* so this is why we can't have nice things :p > > as an aside, in telemetry project, we did something somewhat similar > when we renamed/rebranded to telemetry from ceilometer. we wrote several > notes to the ML, had a few blog posts, fixed the

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread gordon chung
On 15/06/17 06:28 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: >> i see, so this is less an existential question of 'what is openstack' >> > and more 'how to differentiate governance projects from a random repo >> > created last weekend' >> > >> > this might have been just me, but big tent was exactly 'big tent ==

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Amrith Kumar
I'm confused by the proposal; you've made a 1-1 substitution of "big tent" with "openstack project" and then there are some "openstack hosted projects". How does that clarify the situation? It does not help me answer the question "Is Trove part of OpenStack?" with any more clarity than before.

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from gordon chung's message of 2017-06-15 20:24:06 +: > > On 15/06/17 03:23 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > > > > We are very open with our hosting, allowing projects that have not > > yet, and may never, sign up to be governed by the TC to use our > > infrastructure services. We expect

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-06-15 16:35:15 -0500 (-0500), Ed Leafe wrote: [...] > I'm expecting responses that "of course you don't care", or > "OpenStack is people, and you're hurting our feelings!". So flame > away! Nah. Now SoylentStack on the other hand, that one _is_ people but have you actually tried it? Not

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Ed Leafe
On Jun 15, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > For me it's one of the most annoying yet challenging/interesting > aspects: free software development is as much about community and > politics as it is actual software development (perhaps more so). Another way to look at

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Arkady.Kanevsky
- From: Rochelle Grober [mailto:rochelle.gro...@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 3:21 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminolo

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Paul Belanger
On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 03:56:30PM +, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2017-06-15 11:48:42 -0400 (-0400), Davanum Srinivas wrote: > > We took that tradeoff before and have suffered as a result. I'd say > > it's the cost of getting a project under governance. > > Well, sort of. We took the slightly

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2017-06-15 15:22:14 -0500 (-0500), Matt Riedemann wrote: [...] > God I feel like I waste an inordinate amount of time each week > reading about what new process or thing we're going to call > something, rather than actually working on getting stuff done for > the release or reviewing changes.

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Davanum Srinivas
On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Matt Riedemann wrote: > On 6/15/2017 9:57 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: >> >> Obviously we are not the target audience for that term. I think we are >> deep enough in OpenStack and technically-focused enough to see through >> that. But reality is,

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread gordon chung
On 15/06/17 03:23 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > > We are very open with our hosting, allowing projects that have not > yet, and may never, sign up to be governed by the TC to use our > infrastructure services. We expect them to be related in some way, > but we have even imported projects when we've

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Matt Riedemann
On 6/15/2017 9:57 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Obviously we are not the target audience for that term. I think we are deep enough in OpenStack and technically-focused enough to see through that. But reality is, the majority of the rest of the world is confused, and needs help figuring it out.

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Rochelle Grober
OK. So, our naming is like branding. We are techies -- not good at marketing. But, gee, the foundation has a marketing team. And they end up fielding a lot of the confusing questions from companies not deeply entrenched in the OpenStack Dev culture. Perhaps it would be worth explaining

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from gordon chung's message of 2017-06-15 18:56:22 +: > > On 15/06/17 02:05 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > > Example from https://www.meetup.com/openstack/events/237621777/ > > "Platform9 recently open-sourced Project Mors and VM HA as part of the > > OpenStack Big Tent initiative." >

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread gordon chung
On 15/06/17 02:05 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > Example from https://www.meetup.com/openstack/events/237621777/ > "Platform9 recently open-sourced Project Mors and VM HA as part of the > OpenStack Big Tent initiative." ah i see, i imagine you could correct those who are corporate sponsors (and

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Davanum Srinivas
Sorry, re-reading my email :) On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 1:38 PM, gordon chung wrote: > > > On 15/06/17 01:17 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> [DIMS] Tons of folks confused about "Big-Tent", folks are confusing >> that label with "projects under governance". What i meant was "Folks are

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread gordon chung
On 15/06/17 01:17 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > [DIMS] Tons of folks confused about "Big-Tent", folks are confusing > that label with "projects under governance". wait, the big tent isn't the projects under governance? that's what i thought it was based on all the noise... more confused than i

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Michał Jastrzębski
First of all, we definitely need that distinction to be clear. Second, what are incentives to actually be an OpenStack project? 1. TC oversight - it's more a requirement than incentive 2. PTG space - definitely incentive ...anything else? What else? TC has an important role, we need oversight to

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Davanum Srinivas
On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, gordon chung wrote: > > > On 15/06/17 11:28 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> The purpose (my 2 cents) is to highlight what projects are under >> governance and those that are not. > > going down the rabbit hole, what does it mean to be under

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Tim Bell
e questions)" <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> Date: Thursday, 15 June 2017 at 18:36 To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent"

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread gordon chung
On 15/06/17 11:28 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > The purpose (my 2 cents) is to highlight what projects are under > governance and those that are not. going down the rabbit hole, what does it mean to be under governance? projects that want to use the openstack brand and were, at the time of

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Sean McGinnis
On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 03:41:30PM +, Tim Bell wrote: > OpenStack Nucleus and OpenStack Electrons? > > Tim > Hah, love it! __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe:

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Kirill Zaitsev
Not touching the separate gerrit topic, but I genuinely like the "community" name. In my opinion it very well covers the "projects not governed by TC" definition. Regards, Kirill > Le 15 июня 2017 г. à 18:28, Davanum Srinivas a écrit : > >> On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 11:17

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] Moving away from "big tent" terminology

2017-06-15 Thread Thierry Carrez