Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-09-01 Thread Thierry Carrez
James Polley wrote: I'm fairly certain the buzzing sound I can hear is a bee in my bonnet... so I suspect that I'm starting to sound like someone chasing a bee that only they can hear. I'm not sure if it's helpful to keep this discussion on this list - would there be a better forum somewhere

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-31 Thread James Polley
I'm fairly certain the buzzing sound I can hear is a bee in my bonnet... so I suspect that I'm starting to sound like someone chasing a bee that only they can hear. I'm not sure if it's helpful to keep this discussion on this list - would there be a better forum somewhere else? On Fri, Aug 29,

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-29 Thread Thierry Carrez
James Polley wrote: However, Thierry pointed to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/Structure which still refers to Project Technical Leads and says explicitly that they lead individual projects, not programs. I actually have edit access to

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-28 Thread Thierry Carrez
James Polley wrote: Point of clarification: I've heard PTL=Project Technical Lead and PTL=Program Technical Lead. Which is it? It is kind of important as OpenStack grows, because the first is responsible for *a* project, and the second is responsible for all

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-28 Thread James Polley
On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Thierry Carrez thie...@openstack.org wrote: James Polley wrote: Point of clarification: I've heard PTL=Project Technical Lead and PTL=Program Technical Lead. Which is it? It is kind of important as OpenStack grows, because the

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-27 Thread James Polley
On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Rochelle.RochelleGrober rochelle.gro...@huawei.com wrote: /flame-on Ok, this is funny to some of us in the community. The general populace of this community is so against the idea

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread Thierry Carrez
OK, now that we have evacuated the terminology issue (we'll use liaison or janitor or secretary, not czar), and side-stepped the offtopic development (this is not about suppressing PTLs, just a framework to let them delegate along predetermined lines if they want to)... which of those unnamed

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread Flavio Percoco
On 08/26/2014 11:13 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: OK, now that we have evacuated the terminology issue (we'll use liaison or janitor or secretary, not czar), and side-stepped the offtopic development (this is not about suppressing PTLs, just a framework to let them delegate along predetermined

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread Doug Hellmann
On Aug 26, 2014, at 5:13 AM, Thierry Carrez thie...@openstack.org wrote: OK, now that we have evacuated the terminology issue (we'll use liaison or janitor or secretary, not czar), and side-stepped the offtopic development (this is not about suppressing PTLs, just a framework to let them

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread Kyle Mestery
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:19 PM, John Dickinson m...@not.mn wrote: I think Anne makes some excellent points about the pattern being proposed being unlikely to be commonly implemented across all the programs (or, at best, very difficult). Let's not try to formalize another best practice that

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread Kyle Mestery
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs On 08/23/2014 06:35 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: I agree as well. PTL is a servant of the community, as any good leader is. If the PTL feels they have to drop the hammer, or if an impass is reached where they are asked

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread Doug Hellmann
On Aug 26, 2014, at 10:10 AM, Kyle Mestery mest...@mestery.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:19 PM, John Dickinson m...@not.mn wrote: I think Anne makes some excellent points about the pattern being proposed being unlikely to be commonly implemented across all the programs (or, at best,

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread Anita Kuno
On 08/26/2014 05:13 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: OK, now that we have evacuated the terminology issue (we'll use liaison or janitor or secretary, not czar), and side-stepped the offtopic development (this is not about suppressing PTLs, just a framework to let them delegate along predetermined

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread David Kranz
On 08/26/2014 10:04 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote: On Aug 26, 2014, at 5:13 AM, Thierry Carrez thie...@openstack.org wrote: OK, now that we have evacuated the terminology issue (we'll use liaison or janitor or secretary, not czar), and side-stepped the offtopic development (this is not about

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread Matthew Treinish
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 10:04:41AM -0400, Doug Hellmann wrote: On Aug 26, 2014, at 5:13 AM, Thierry Carrez thie...@openstack.org wrote: OK, now that we have evacuated the terminology issue (we'll use liaison or janitor or secretary, not czar), and side-stepped the offtopic development

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-26 Thread Doug Hellmann
On Aug 26, 2014, at 11:28 AM, Matthew Treinish mtrein...@kortar.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 10:04:41AM -0400, Doug Hellmann wrote: On Aug 26, 2014, at 5:13 AM, Thierry Carrez thie...@openstack.org wrote: OK, now that we have evacuated the terminology issue (we'll use liaison or

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Alan Kavanagh
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs On 08/23/2014 06:35 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: I agree as well. PTL is a servant of the community, as any good leader is. If the PTL feels they have to drop the hammer, or if an impass is reached where they are asked

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Thierry Carrez
Anne Gentle wrote: Rochelle.RochelleGrober wrote: /flame-on Let's call spades, spades here. Czar is not only overkill, but the wrong metaphor. /flame-off I'm with Rocky on the anti-czar-as-a-word camp. We all like clever names to shed the corporate stigma but this word

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Thierry Carrez
Zane Bitter wrote: On 22/08/14 12:45, Dolph Mathews wrote: I'm all for getting a final decision, but a 'final' decision that has been imposed from outside rather than internalised by the participants is... rarely final. The expectation of a PTL isn't to stomp around and make final

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Thierry Carrez
Tim Bell wrote: As part of the user feedback loop, we've found the PTL role extremely useful to channel feedback. The operator PTL discussions during the Atlanta summit helped to clarify a number of areas where the PTL can then take the points back to the design summit. It is not clear how

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Flavio Percoco
On 08/25/2014 12:30 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Zane Bitter wrote: On 22/08/14 12:45, Dolph Mathews wrote: I'm all for getting a final decision, but a 'final' decision that has been imposed from outside rather than internalised by the participants is... rarely final. The expectation of a PTL

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Zane Bitter
On 22/08/14 21:02, Anne Gentle wrote: I'm with Rocky on the anti-czar-as-a-word camp. We all like clever names to shed the corporate stigma but this word ain't it. Liaison or lead? +1. The only time you hear the word 'czar' in regular life (outside of references to pre-revolutionary Russia)

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Doug Hellmann
On Aug 23, 2014, at 6:35 PM, Clint Byrum cl...@fewbar.com wrote: Excerpts from Dolph Mathews's message of 2014-08-22 09:45:37 -0700: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Zane Bitter zbit...@redhat.com wrote: On 22/08/14 11:19, Thierry Carrez wrote: Zane Bitter wrote: On 22/08/14 08:33,

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Rochelle.RochelleGrober
Zane Bitter wrote: On 22/08/14 21:02, Anne Gentle wrote: I'm with Rocky on the anti-czar-as-a-word camp. We all like clever names to shed the corporate stigma but this word ain't it. Liaison or lead? +1. The only time you hear the word 'czar' in regular life (outside of references to

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2014-08-25 19:39:30 + (+), Rochelle.RochelleGrober wrote: Or, how about Secretary? [...] While we're painting this particular bike shed, I have a preference for janitor, drudge, mule, valet, slogger or similar terms which make it apparent that there is nothing at all glamorous nor

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Zane Bitter
On 25/08/14 06:30, Thierry Carrez wrote: Zane Bitter wrote: On 22/08/14 12:45, Dolph Mathews wrote: I'm all for getting a final decision, but a 'final' decision that has been imposed from outside rather than internalised by the participants is... rarely final. The expectation of a PTL

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Stefano Maffulli
On Mon 25 Aug 2014 03:38:18 PM CDT, Zane Bitter wrote: I'd say we've done fairly well, but I would attribute that at least in part to the fact that we've treated the PTL as effectively the temporary release management contact more than the guy who will resolve disputes for us. In other words,

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Rochelle.RochelleGrober
Zane Bitter [August 25, 2014 1:38 PM] wrote: . . . snip I'd say we've done fairly well, but I would attribute that at least in part to the fact that we've treated the PTL as effectively the temporary release management contact more than the guy who will resolve disputes for us. In other

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-25 Thread Stefano Maffulli
On 08/22/2014 08:19 PM, John Dickinson wrote: I think Anne makes some excellent points about the pattern being proposed being unlikely to be commonly implemented across all the programs (or, at best, very difficult). Let's not try to formalize another best practice that works many times and

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-24 Thread Kashyap Chamarthy
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 02:33:27PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: [Snip some well articulated thoughts.] Enter the Czar system: each project should have a number of liaisons / official contacts / delegates that are fully responsible to cover one aspect of the project. We need to have Bugs

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-24 Thread Jay Pipes
On 08/23/2014 06:35 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: I agree as well. PTL is a servant of the community, as any good leader is. If the PTL feels they have to drop the hammer, or if an impass is reached where they are asked to, it is because they have failed to get everyone communicating effectively, not

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-24 Thread Adam Young
On 08/22/2014 09:02 PM, Anne Gentle wrote: /flame-on Let's call spades, spades here. Czar is not only overkill, but the wrong metaphor. /flame-off I'm with Rocky on the anti-czar-as-a-word camp. We all like clever names to shed the corporate stigma but this word ain't it.

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-23 Thread Tim Bell
-Original Message- From: John Dickinson [mailto:m...@not.mn] Sent: 23 August 2014 03:20 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs I think Anne makes some excellent points about

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-23 Thread Clint Byrum
Excerpts from Dolph Mathews's message of 2014-08-22 09:45:37 -0700: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Zane Bitter zbit...@redhat.com wrote: On 22/08/14 11:19, Thierry Carrez wrote: Zane Bitter wrote: On 22/08/14 08:33, Thierry Carrez wrote: We also still need someone to have the

[openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Thierry Carrez
Hi everyone, We all know being a project PTL is an extremely busy job. That's because in our structure the PTL is responsible for almost everything in a project: - Release management contact - Work prioritization - Keeping bugs under control - Communicate about work being planned or done - Make

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Russell Bryant
On 08/22/2014 08:33 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, We all know being a project PTL is an extremely busy job. That's because in our structure the PTL is responsible for almost everything in a project: - Release management contact - Work prioritization - Keeping bugs under control

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Russell Bryant
On 08/22/2014 09:40 AM, Russell Bryant wrote: Another area worth calling out is a gate czar. Having someone who understands infra and QA quite well and is regularly on top of the status of the project in the gate is helpful and quite important. Oops, you said this one, too. Anyway, +1. --

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Anita Kuno
On 08/22/2014 07:33 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, We all know being a project PTL is an extremely busy job. That's because in our structure the PTL is responsible for almost everything in a project: - Release management contact - Work prioritization - Keeping bugs under control

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Daniel P. Berrange
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 02:33:27PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, We all know being a project PTL is an extremely busy job. That's because in our structure the PTL is responsible for almost everything in a project: - Release management contact - Work prioritization - Keeping

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Flavio Percoco
On 08/22/2014 02:33 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, We all know being a project PTL is an extremely busy job. That's because in our structure the PTL is responsible for almost everything in a project: - Release management contact - Work prioritization - Keeping bugs under control

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Zane Bitter
On 22/08/14 08:33, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, We all know being a project PTL is an extremely busy job. That's because in our structure the PTL is responsible for almost everything in a project: - Release management contact - Work prioritization - Keeping bugs under control -

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Thierry Carrez
Russell Bryant wrote: On 08/22/2014 09:40 AM, Russell Bryant wrote: Another area worth calling out is a gate czar. Having someone who understands infra and QA quite well and is regularly on top of the status of the project in the gate is helpful and quite important. Oops, you said this

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Thierry Carrez
Daniel P. Berrange wrote: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 02:33:27PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, We all know being a project PTL is an extremely busy job. That's because in our structure the PTL is responsible for almost everything in a project: - Release management contact - Work

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Thierry Carrez
Zane Bitter wrote: On 22/08/14 08:33, Thierry Carrez wrote: We also still need someone to have the final say in case of deadlocked issues. -1 we really don't. I know we disagree on that :) People say we don't have that many deadlocks in OpenStack for which the PTL ultimate power is

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Mark McLoughlin
On Fri, 2014-08-22 at 11:01 -0400, Zane Bitter wrote: I don't see that as something the wider OpenStack community needs to dictate. We have a heavyweight election process for PTLs once every cycle because that used to be the process for electing the TC. Now that it no longer serves this

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Jay Pipes
On 08/22/2014 08:33 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, We all know being a project PTL is an extremely busy job. That's because in our structure the PTL is responsible for almost everything in a project: - Release management contact - Work prioritization - Keeping bugs under control -

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread John Griffith
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Jay Pipes jaypi...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/22/2014 08:33 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, We all know being a project PTL is an extremely busy job. That's because in our structure the PTL is responsible for almost everything in a project: - Release

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Zane Bitter
On 22/08/14 12:45, Dolph Mathews wrote: I'm all for getting a final decision, but a 'final' decision that has been imposed from outside rather than internalised by the participants is... rarely final. The expectation of a PTL isn't to stomp around and make final decisions, it's to step in when

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Rochelle.RochelleGrober
/flame-on Ok, this is funny to some of us in the community. The general populace of this community is so against the idea of management that they will use the term for a despotic dictator as a position name rather than manager. Sorry, but this needed to be said. /flame-off Specific comments

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread Anne Gentle
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Rochelle.RochelleGrober rochelle.gro...@huawei.com wrote: /flame-on Ok, this is funny to some of us in the community. The general populace of this community is so against the idea of management that they will use the term for a despotic dictator as a

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [ptls] The Czar system, or how to scale PTLs

2014-08-22 Thread John Dickinson
I think Anne makes some excellent points about the pattern being proposed being unlikely to be commonly implemented across all the programs (or, at best, very difficult). Let's not try to formalize another best practice that works many times and force it to work every time. Here's an alternate