Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
On 06/30/2017 04:38 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Mike Perez wrote: >> [...] >> What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a >> champion volunteer to each goal to help? > It feels like most agree that having champions would help. Do we have > any volunteer for the currently-proposed Pike goals ? As a reminder, > those are: > > * Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1] > * Move policy and policy docs into code [2] I can champion the policy docs changes. > > [1] > https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html > [2] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/469954/ > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Thierry Carrezwrote: > Mike Perez wrote: >> [...] >> What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a >> champion volunteer to each goal to help? > > It feels like most agree that having champions would help. Do we have > any volunteer for the currently-proposed Pike goals ? As a reminder, > those are: > > * Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1] I would like to volunteer for Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects . > * Move policy and policy docs into code [2] > > [1] > https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html > [2] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/469954/ > Thanks, Chandan Kumar __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
Mike Perez wrote: > [...] > What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a > champion volunteer to each goal to help? It feels like most agree that having champions would help. Do we have any volunteer for the currently-proposed Pike goals ? As a reminder, those are: * Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1] * Move policy and policy docs into code [2] [1] https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html [2] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/469954/ -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
On 06/27/2017 04:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > gordon chung wrote: >> do we know why they're not being completed? indifference? lack of resources? > > I would say it's a mix of reasons. Sometimes it's a resource issue, but > most of the time it's a prioritization issue (everyone waiting for > someone else to pick it up), and in remaining cases it's pure > procrastination (it's not that much work, I'll do it tomorrow). > >> i like the champion idea although i think its scope should be expanded. >> i didn't mention this in meeting and the following has no legit research >> behind it so feel free to disregard but i imagine some of the >> indifference towards the goals is because: >> >> - it's often trivial (but important) work >> many projects are already flooded with a lot of non-trivial, >> self-interest goals AND a lot trivial (and unimportant) copy/paste >> patches already so it's hard to feel passionate and find motivation to >> do it. the champion stuff may help here. >> >> - there is a disconnect between the TC and the projects. >> it seems there is a requirement for the projects to engage the TC but >> not necessarily the other way around. for many projects, i'm fairly >> certain nothing would change whether they actively engaged the TC or >> just left relationship as is and had minimal/no interaction. i apologise >> if that's blunt but just based on my own prior experience. >> >> i don't know if the TC wants to become PMs but having the goals i feel >> sort of requires the TC to be PMs and to actually interact with the PTLs >> regularly, not just about the goal itself but the project and it's role >> in openstack. maybe it's as designed, but if there's no relationship >> there, i don't think 'TC wants you to do this' will get something done. >> it's in the same vein as how it's easier to get a patch approved if >> you're engaged in a project for some time as oppose to a patch out of >> the blue (disclaimer: i did not study sociology). > When we look at goals, the main issue is generally not writing the > patches, it's more about getting that prioritized in code review and > tracking completion. That's where I think champions will help. Sometimes > teams will need help writing patches, sometimes they will just need > reminders to prioritize code review up. Someone has to look at the big > picture and care for the completion of the goal. Having champions will > also make it look a lot less like 'TC wants you to do this' and more > like 'we are in this together, completing this goal will make openstack > better'. ++ Having worked on a number of things that have touched a bunch of projects, it turns out that the needs of every project are different. The reason that multi project efforts seem to take so long, or die out, is they need a reasonable amount of project management to be effective. There are lots of demands on teams, and having someone that can represent a bigger goal, knows what it looks like when complete, and can go to the affected teams with "here is the next one thing I need from you to make this whole" really speeds up the process. At least 2 - 3x (if not more). -Sean -- Sean Dague http://dague.net __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
gordon chung wrote: > do we know why they're not being completed? indifference? lack of resources? I would say it's a mix of reasons. Sometimes it's a resource issue, but most of the time it's a prioritization issue (everyone waiting for someone else to pick it up), and in remaining cases it's pure procrastination (it's not that much work, I'll do it tomorrow). > i like the champion idea although i think its scope should be expanded. > i didn't mention this in meeting and the following has no legit research > behind it so feel free to disregard but i imagine some of the > indifference towards the goals is because: > > - it's often trivial (but important) work > many projects are already flooded with a lot of non-trivial, > self-interest goals AND a lot trivial (and unimportant) copy/paste > patches already so it's hard to feel passionate and find motivation to > do it. the champion stuff may help here. > > - there is a disconnect between the TC and the projects. > it seems there is a requirement for the projects to engage the TC but > not necessarily the other way around. for many projects, i'm fairly > certain nothing would change whether they actively engaged the TC or > just left relationship as is and had minimal/no interaction. i apologise > if that's blunt but just based on my own prior experience. > > i don't know if the TC wants to become PMs but having the goals i feel > sort of requires the TC to be PMs and to actually interact with the PTLs > regularly, not just about the goal itself but the project and it's role > in openstack. maybe it's as designed, but if there's no relationship > there, i don't think 'TC wants you to do this' will get something done. > it's in the same vein as how it's easier to get a patch approved if > you're engaged in a project for some time as oppose to a patch out of > the blue (disclaimer: i did not study sociology). When we look at goals, the main issue is generally not writing the patches, it's more about getting that prioritized in code review and tracking completion. That's where I think champions will help. Sometimes teams will need help writing patches, sometimes they will just need reminders to prioritize code review up. Someone has to look at the big picture and care for the completion of the goal. Having champions will also make it look a lot less like 'TC wants you to do this' and more like 'we are in this together, completing this goal will make openstack better'. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
I think more than one champion is helpful in some cases, but its dangerous when you get more than two that each person thinks the other two will handle things unless they are very communicative with one another :) Somewhere else in this thread the idea of a committee and a chair was mentioned which seems like a good way of handling it. One primary point of contact that delegates to the others when they need help. -Kendall (diablo_rojo) On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 1:49 PM Lance Bragstadwrote: > > > On 06/22/2017 12:57 PM, Mike Perez wrote: > > Hey all, > > In the community wide goals, we started as a group discussing goals at the > OpenStack Forum. Then we brought those ideas to the mailing list to > continue the discussion and include those that were not able to be at the > forum. The discussions help the TC decide on what goals we will do for the > Queens release. The goals that have the most support so far are: > > 1) Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1] > 2) Move policy and policy docs into code [2] > > In the recent TC meeting [3] it was recognized that goals in Pike haven't > been going as smoothly and not being completed. There will be a follow up > thread to cover gathering feedback in an etherpad later, but for now the TC > has discussed potential actions to improve completing goals in Queens. > > An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions", who > are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with tracking > status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be interested > volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected goal and its > implementation to be a trusted person. > > What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a > champion volunteer to each goal to help? Are there ideas that weren't > mentioned in the TC meeting [3]? > > I like this idea. Some projects might have existing context about a > particular goal built up before it's even proposed, others might not. I > think this will help share knowledge across the projects that understand > the goal with projects who might not be as familiar with it (even though > the community goal proposal process attempts to fix that). > > Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be > distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated? > > > [1] - > https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html > [2] - > https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg106392.html > [3] - > http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-06-20-20.01.log.html#l-10 > > — > Mike Perez > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: > openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribehttp://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
On 22/06/17 01:57 PM, Mike Perez wrote: > An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions", > who are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with > tracking status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be > interested volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected > goal and its implementation to be a trusted person. > > What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a > champion volunteer to each goal to help? Are there ideas that weren't > mentioned in the TC meeting [3]? do we know why they're not being completed? indifference? lack of resources? i like the champion idea although i think its scope should be expanded. i didn't mention this in meeting and the following has no legit research behind it so feel free to disregard but i imagine some of the indifference towards the goals is because: - it's often trivial (but important) work many projects are already flooded with a lot of non-trivial, self-interest goals AND a lot trivial (and unimportant) copy/paste patches already so it's hard to feel passionate and find motivation to do it. the champion stuff may help here. - there is a disconnect between the TC and the projects. it seems there is a requirement for the projects to engage the TC but not necessarily the other way around. for many projects, i'm fairly certain nothing would change whether they actively engaged the TC or just left relationship as is and had minimal/no interaction. i apologise if that's blunt but just based on my own prior experience. i don't know if the TC wants to become PMs but having the goals i feel sort of requires the TC to be PMs and to actually interact with the PTLs regularly, not just about the goal itself but the project and it's role in openstack. maybe it's as designed, but if there's no relationship there, i don't think 'TC wants you to do this' will get something done. it's in the same vein as how it's easier to get a patch approved if you're engaged in a project for some time as oppose to a patch out of the blue (disclaimer: i did not study sociology). just my random thoughts. cheers, -- gord __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Sean Daguewrote: > On 06/23/2017 05:44 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: >> Lance Bragstad wrote: >>> Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be >>> distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated? >> >> I'm a bit torn on that. On one hand work can definitely (and probably >> should) be covered by multiple people. But I like the idea that it's >> someone's responsibility to ensure that progress is made (even if that >> person ends up delegating all the work). The trick is, it's easy for >> everyone to assume that the work is covered since someone has signed up >> for it. >> >> It's like the PTL situation -- work is done by the group and it's great >> to have a clear go-to person to keep track of things, until the PTL has >> to do everything because they end up as the default assignee for everything. > > I agree, there should be a single name here. They can delegate and > collect up a group, but at the end of the day one person should be > responsible for it. > Aye, this sounds much like a committee chair. Ideally, even if in name only, it provides a single point of communication for folks regardless of whether they are directly working on the goal or not. Two points: It may require some additional monitoring from the respective PTL and, we should have have a plan in place for shifting responsibilities if a given champion can no longer take on the role (illness, injury, work changes, etc...). - Harry > -Sean > > -- > Sean Dague > http://dague.net > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
On 06/23/2017 05:44 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Lance Bragstad wrote: >> Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be >> distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated? > > I'm a bit torn on that. On one hand work can definitely (and probably > should) be covered by multiple people. But I like the idea that it's > someone's responsibility to ensure that progress is made (even if that > person ends up delegating all the work). The trick is, it's easy for > everyone to assume that the work is covered since someone has signed up > for it. > > It's like the PTL situation -- work is done by the group and it's great > to have a clear go-to person to keep track of things, until the PTL has > to do everything because they end up as the default assignee for everything. I agree, there should be a single name here. They can delegate and collect up a group, but at the end of the day one person should be responsible for it. -Sean -- Sean Dague http://dague.net __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
Lance Bragstad wrote: > Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be > distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated? I'm a bit torn on that. On one hand work can definitely (and probably should) be covered by multiple people. But I like the idea that it's someone's responsibility to ensure that progress is made (even if that person ends up delegating all the work). The trick is, it's easy for everyone to assume that the work is covered since someone has signed up for it. It's like the PTL situation -- work is done by the group and it's great to have a clear go-to person to keep track of things, until the PTL has to do everything because they end up as the default assignee for everything. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
I like the idea, which means some projects lack of resources could benefit more from the whole community :) Cheers, Lingxian Kong (Larry) On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:57 AM, Mike Perezwrote: > Hey all, > > In the community wide goals, we started as a group discussing goals at the > OpenStack Forum. Then we brought those ideas to the mailing list to > continue the discussion and include those that were not able to be at the > forum. The discussions help the TC decide on what goals we will do for the > Queens release. The goals that have the most support so far are: > > 1) Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1] > 2) Move policy and policy docs into code [2] > > In the recent TC meeting [3] it was recognized that goals in Pike haven't > been going as smoothly and not being completed. There will be a follow up > thread to cover gathering feedback in an etherpad later, but for now the TC > has discussed potential actions to improve completing goals in Queens. > > An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions", who > are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with tracking > status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be interested > volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected goal and its > implementation to be a trusted person. > > What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a > champion volunteer to each goal to help? Are there ideas that weren't > mentioned in the TC meeting [3]? > > [1] - https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/ > split-tempest-plugins.html > [2] - https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists. > openstack.org/msg106392.html > [3] - http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017- > 06-20-20.01.log.html#l-10 > > — > Mike Perez > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
> > > > An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions", > > who are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with > > tracking status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be > > interested volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected > > goal and its implementation to be a trusted person. > > > I like this idea. Some projects might have existing context about a > particular goal built up before it's even proposed, others might not. I > think this will help share knowledge across the projects that understand > the goal with projects who might not be as familiar with it (even though > the community goal proposal process attempts to fix that). > > Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be > distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated? I like this idea, and I would think it would be "one or more champions" in some cases. I thought the uWSGI goal was a great example of the need for this. There were some that understood this very well and what needed to happen in each project. Some projects understood this too and were able to make the change easily, while others had (have) to do a lot of catching up to understand what needs to be done. Rather than making a bunch of people take this time to get up to speed, I think it makes a lot of sense to be able to have a few people just take care of it. Or at least be a good, and identified, resource for others to go to to understand what needs to be done. __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
On 06/22/2017 12:57 PM, Mike Perez wrote: > Hey all, > > In the community wide goals, we started as a group discussing goals at > the OpenStack Forum. Then we brought those ideas to the mailing list > to continue the discussion and include those that were not able to be > at the forum. The discussions help the TC decide on what goals we will > do for the Queens release. The goals that have the most support so far > are: > > 1) Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1] > 2) Move policy and policy docs into code [2] > > In the recent TC meeting [3] it was recognized that goals in Pike > haven't been going as smoothly and not being completed. There will be > a follow up thread to cover gathering feedback in an etherpad later, > but for now the TC has discussed potential actions to improve > completing goals in Queens. > > An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions", > who are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with > tracking status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be > interested volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected > goal and its implementation to be a trusted person. > > What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a > champion volunteer to each goal to help? Are there ideas that weren't > mentioned in the TC meeting [3]? I like this idea. Some projects might have existing context about a particular goal built up before it's even proposed, others might not. I think this will help share knowledge across the projects that understand the goal with projects who might not be as familiar with it (even though the community goal proposal process attempts to fix that). Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated? > > [1] > - https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html > [2] > - > https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg106392.html > [3] > - > http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-06-20-20.01.log.html#l-10 > > — > Mike Perez > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
[openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion
Hey all, In the community wide goals, we started as a group discussing goals at the OpenStack Forum. Then we brought those ideas to the mailing list to continue the discussion and include those that were not able to be at the forum. The discussions help the TC decide on what goals we will do for the Queens release. The goals that have the most support so far are: 1) Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1] 2) Move policy and policy docs into code [2] In the recent TC meeting [3] it was recognized that goals in Pike haven't been going as smoothly and not being completed. There will be a follow up thread to cover gathering feedback in an etherpad later, but for now the TC has discussed potential actions to improve completing goals in Queens. An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions", who are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with tracking status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be interested volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected goal and its implementation to be a trusted person. What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a champion volunteer to each goal to help? Are there ideas that weren't mentioned in the TC meeting [3]? [1] - https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html [2] - https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg106392.html [3] - http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-06-20-20.01.log.html#l-10 — Mike Perez __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev