Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2016-01-14 Thread Davanum Srinivas 
LOL Tom :)

-- Dims

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 2:32 AM, Tom Fifield  wrote:
> On 14/01/16 15:22, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
>>
>> On 2016-01-14 08:13, Tom Fifield wrote:
>>>
>>> So, I'm prompted by another 20 oslo release emails to dredge up this
>>> thread :)
>>>
>>> There appears to be broad consensus that those shouldn't be going to the
>>> announce list ... what do we need to do to get that to change to posted
>>> to "-dev + batched inside the weekly -dev digest from thingee" as
>>> Thierry suggested?
>>
>>
>> So, those 20 odd olso release emails all went to -dev, the release team
>> changed the logic, see also
>>
>> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-January/083749.html
>
>
> Apologies to all. Maybe its time to visit the optometrist for me ... I
> haven't been once in my life yet, could be scary :)
>
>
>
>> Not sure about the "Batching inside the weekly digest from thingee",
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On 14/12/15 17:12, Tom Fifield wrote:

 ... and back to this thread after a few weeks :)

 The conclusions I saw were:
 * Audience for openstack-announce should be "users/non-dev"
 * Service project releases announcements are good
 * Client library release announcements good
 * Security announcements are good
 * Internal library (particularly oslo) release announcements don't fit

 Open Questions:
 * Where do Internal library release announcements go? [-dev or new
 -release list or batched inside the weekly newsletter]
 * Do SDK releases fit on -announce?


 Regards,


 Tom


 On 20/11/15 12:00, Tom Fifield wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to get your thoughts about the OpenStack-Announce list.
>
> We describe the list as:
>
> """
> Subscribe to this list to receive important announcements from the
> OpenStack Release Team and OpenStack Security Team.
>
> This is a low-traffic, read-only list.
> """
>
> Up until July 2015, it was used for the following:
> * Community Weekly Newsletter
> * Stable branch release notifications
> * Major (i.e. Six-monthly) release notifications
> * Important security advisories
>
> and had on average 5-10 messages per month.
>
> After July 2015, the following was added:
> * Release notifications for clients and libraries (one email per
> library, includes contributor-focused projects)
>
> resulting in an average of 70-80 messages per month.
>
>
> Personally, I no longer consider this volume "low traffic" :)
>
> In addition, I have been recently receiving feedback that users have
> been unsubscribing from or deleting without reading the list's posts.
>
> That isn't good news, given this is supposed to be the place where we
> can make very important announcements and have them read.
>
> One simple suggestion might be to batch the week's client/library
> release notifications into a single email. Another might be to look at
> the audience for the list, what kind of notifications they want, and
> chose the announcements differently.
>
> What do you think we should do to ensure the announce list remains
> useful?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Tom
>
>
> __
>
>
>
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe:
> openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev




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-- 
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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2016-01-13 Thread Andreas Jaeger 

On 2016-01-14 08:13, Tom Fifield wrote:

So, I'm prompted by another 20 oslo release emails to dredge up this
thread :)

There appears to be broad consensus that those shouldn't be going to the
announce list ... what do we need to do to get that to change to posted
to "-dev + batched inside the weekly -dev digest from thingee" as
Thierry suggested?


So, those 20 odd olso release emails all went to -dev, the release team 
changed the logic, see also 
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-January/083749.html


Not sure about the "Batching inside the weekly digest from thingee",

Andreas




Regards,


Tom

On 14/12/15 17:12, Tom Fifield wrote:

... and back to this thread after a few weeks :)

The conclusions I saw were:
* Audience for openstack-announce should be "users/non-dev"
* Service project releases announcements are good
* Client library release announcements good
* Security announcements are good
* Internal library (particularly oslo) release announcements don't fit

Open Questions:
* Where do Internal library release announcements go? [-dev or new
-release list or batched inside the weekly newsletter]
* Do SDK releases fit on -announce?


Regards,


Tom


On 20/11/15 12:00, Tom Fifield wrote:

Hi all,

I'd like to get your thoughts about the OpenStack-Announce list.

We describe the list as:

"""
Subscribe to this list to receive important announcements from the
OpenStack Release Team and OpenStack Security Team.

This is a low-traffic, read-only list.
"""

Up until July 2015, it was used for the following:
* Community Weekly Newsletter
* Stable branch release notifications
* Major (i.e. Six-monthly) release notifications
* Important security advisories

and had on average 5-10 messages per month.

After July 2015, the following was added:
* Release notifications for clients and libraries (one email per
library, includes contributor-focused projects)

resulting in an average of 70-80 messages per month.


Personally, I no longer consider this volume "low traffic" :)

In addition, I have been recently receiving feedback that users have
been unsubscribing from or deleting without reading the list's posts.

That isn't good news, given this is supposed to be the place where we
can make very important announcements and have them read.

One simple suggestion might be to batch the week's client/library
release notifications into a single email. Another might be to look at
the audience for the list, what kind of notifications they want, and
chose the announcements differently.

What do you think we should do to ensure the announce list remains
useful?



Regards,


Tom

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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2016-01-13 Thread Tom Fifield 
So, I'm prompted by another 20 oslo release emails to dredge up this 
thread :)


There appears to be broad consensus that those shouldn't be going to the 
announce list ... what do we need to do to get that to change to posted 
to "-dev + batched inside the weekly -dev digest from thingee" as 
Thierry suggested?



Regards,


Tom

On 14/12/15 17:12, Tom Fifield wrote:

... and back to this thread after a few weeks :)

The conclusions I saw were:
* Audience for openstack-announce should be "users/non-dev"
* Service project releases announcements are good
* Client library release announcements good
* Security announcements are good
* Internal library (particularly oslo) release announcements don't fit

Open Questions:
* Where do Internal library release announcements go? [-dev or new
-release list or batched inside the weekly newsletter]
* Do SDK releases fit on -announce?


Regards,


Tom


On 20/11/15 12:00, Tom Fifield wrote:

Hi all,

I'd like to get your thoughts about the OpenStack-Announce list.

We describe the list as:

"""
Subscribe to this list to receive important announcements from the
OpenStack Release Team and OpenStack Security Team.

This is a low-traffic, read-only list.
"""

Up until July 2015, it was used for the following:
* Community Weekly Newsletter
* Stable branch release notifications
* Major (i.e. Six-monthly) release notifications
* Important security advisories

and had on average 5-10 messages per month.

After July 2015, the following was added:
* Release notifications for clients and libraries (one email per
library, includes contributor-focused projects)

resulting in an average of 70-80 messages per month.


Personally, I no longer consider this volume "low traffic" :)

In addition, I have been recently receiving feedback that users have
been unsubscribing from or deleting without reading the list's posts.

That isn't good news, given this is supposed to be the place where we
can make very important announcements and have them read.

One simple suggestion might be to batch the week's client/library
release notifications into a single email. Another might be to look at
the audience for the list, what kind of notifications they want, and
chose the announcements differently.

What do you think we should do to ensure the announce list remains
useful?



Regards,


Tom

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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2016-01-13 Thread Tom Fifield 

On 14/01/16 15:22, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On 2016-01-14 08:13, Tom Fifield wrote:

So, I'm prompted by another 20 oslo release emails to dredge up this
thread :)

There appears to be broad consensus that those shouldn't be going to the
announce list ... what do we need to do to get that to change to posted
to "-dev + batched inside the weekly -dev digest from thingee" as
Thierry suggested?


So, those 20 odd olso release emails all went to -dev, the release team
changed the logic, see also
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-January/083749.html


Apologies to all. Maybe its time to visit the optometrist for me ... I 
haven't been once in my life yet, could be scary :)




Not sure about the "Batching inside the weekly digest from thingee",

Andreas




Regards,


Tom

On 14/12/15 17:12, Tom Fifield wrote:

... and back to this thread after a few weeks :)

The conclusions I saw were:
* Audience for openstack-announce should be "users/non-dev"
* Service project releases announcements are good
* Client library release announcements good
* Security announcements are good
* Internal library (particularly oslo) release announcements don't fit

Open Questions:
* Where do Internal library release announcements go? [-dev or new
-release list or batched inside the weekly newsletter]
* Do SDK releases fit on -announce?


Regards,


Tom


On 20/11/15 12:00, Tom Fifield wrote:

Hi all,

I'd like to get your thoughts about the OpenStack-Announce list.

We describe the list as:

"""
Subscribe to this list to receive important announcements from the
OpenStack Release Team and OpenStack Security Team.

This is a low-traffic, read-only list.
"""

Up until July 2015, it was used for the following:
* Community Weekly Newsletter
* Stable branch release notifications
* Major (i.e. Six-monthly) release notifications
* Important security advisories

and had on average 5-10 messages per month.

After July 2015, the following was added:
* Release notifications for clients and libraries (one email per
library, includes contributor-focused projects)

resulting in an average of 70-80 messages per month.


Personally, I no longer consider this volume "low traffic" :)

In addition, I have been recently receiving feedback that users have
been unsubscribing from or deleting without reading the list's posts.

That isn't good news, given this is supposed to be the place where we
can make very important announcements and have them read.

One simple suggestion might be to batch the week's client/library
release notifications into a single email. Another might be to look at
the audience for the list, what kind of notifications they want, and
chose the announcements differently.

What do you think we should do to ensure the announce list remains
useful?



Regards,


Tom

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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-12-14 Thread Tom Fifield 

... and back to this thread after a few weeks :)

The conclusions I saw were:
* Audience for openstack-announce should be "users/non-dev"
* Service project releases announcements are good
* Client library release announcements good
* Security announcements are good
* Internal library (particularly oslo) release announcements don't fit

Open Questions:
* Where do Internal library release announcements go? [-dev or new 
-release list or batched inside the weekly newsletter]

* Do SDK releases fit on -announce?


Regards,


Tom


On 20/11/15 12:00, Tom Fifield wrote:

Hi all,

I'd like to get your thoughts about the OpenStack-Announce list.

We describe the list as:

"""
Subscribe to this list to receive important announcements from the
OpenStack Release Team and OpenStack Security Team.

This is a low-traffic, read-only list.
"""

Up until July 2015, it was used for the following:
* Community Weekly Newsletter
* Stable branch release notifications
* Major (i.e. Six-monthly) release notifications
* Important security advisories

and had on average 5-10 messages per month.

After July 2015, the following was added:
* Release notifications for clients and libraries (one email per
library, includes contributor-focused projects)

resulting in an average of 70-80 messages per month.


Personally, I no longer consider this volume "low traffic" :)

In addition, I have been recently receiving feedback that users have
been unsubscribing from or deleting without reading the list's posts.

That isn't good news, given this is supposed to be the place where we
can make very important announcements and have them read.

One simple suggestion might be to batch the week's client/library
release notifications into a single email. Another might be to look at
the audience for the list, what kind of notifications they want, and
chose the announcements differently.

What do you think we should do to ensure the announce list remains useful?



Regards,


Tom

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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-12-14 Thread Tom Fifield 

On 14/12/15 19:33, Thierry Carrez wrote:

Tom Fifield wrote:

... and back to this thread after a few weeks :)

The conclusions I saw were:
* Audience for openstack-announce should be "users/non-dev"
* Service project releases announcements are good
* Client library release announcements good
* Security announcements are good
* Internal library (particularly oslo) release announcements don't fit

Open Questions:
* Where do Internal library release announcements go? [-dev or new
-release list or batched inside the weekly newsletter]


I'd say -dev + batched inside the weekly -dev digest from thingee (and
crosspost that one to -announce). Even if the audience is "users" I
think getting a weekly digest from the -dev ML can't hurt ?


Yup, feedback I have says it's enjoyed cross-discipline :)


* Do SDK releases fit on -announce?


I guess they could -- how many of those are we expecting ?



So far it looks close to zero emails :) PythonSDK is the only one that's 
in the OpenStack namespace I can see at quick search.


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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-12-14 Thread Dean Troyer 
On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 6:28 AM, Tom Fifield  wrote:

> On 14/12/15 19:33, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>
>> Tom Fifield wrote:
>
> * Do SDK releases fit on -announce?
>>>
>>
>> I guess they could -- how many of those are we expecting ?
>>
>>
> So far it looks close to zero emails :) PythonSDK is the only one that's
> in the OpenStack namespace I can see at quick search.


I think they do, the Python SDK is intended for application and user-facing
use, that fits the -announce audience.

dt

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dtro...@gmail.com
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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-12-14 Thread Thierry Carrez 
Tom Fifield wrote:
> ... and back to this thread after a few weeks :)
> 
> The conclusions I saw were:
> * Audience for openstack-announce should be "users/non-dev"
> * Service project releases announcements are good
> * Client library release announcements good
> * Security announcements are good
> * Internal library (particularly oslo) release announcements don't fit
> 
> Open Questions:
> * Where do Internal library release announcements go? [-dev or new
> -release list or batched inside the weekly newsletter]

I'd say -dev + batched inside the weekly -dev digest from thingee (and
crosspost that one to -announce). Even if the audience is "users" I
think getting a weekly digest from the -dev ML can't hurt ?

> * Do SDK releases fit on -announce?

I guess they could -- how many of those are we expecting ?

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-12-02 Thread Jeremy Stanley 
On 2015-11-20 11:41:43 +0100 (+0100), Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Tom Fifield wrote:
[...]
> > * Important security advisories
> 
> Actually it's all security advisories, not just "important" ones.
[...]

I would counter that the VMT don't bother to write and publish
"unimportant" security advisories, as it would be a waste of all our
time and we already have plenty of other things to do. ;)
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-11-20 Thread Dean Troyer 
On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 4:41 AM, Thierry Carrez 
wrote:

> We could definitely go back to "the place users wanting to keep up with
> upstream news directly affecting them should subscribe to", and post only:
>
> - user-facing service releases (type:service deliverables), on stable
> branches or development branches
> - security vulnerabilities and security notes
> - weekly upstream development news (the one Mike compiles), and include
> a digest of all library/ancillary services releases of the week in there
>
> Library releases are not "directly affecting users", so not urgent news
> for "users wanting to keep up with upstream news" and can wait to be
> mentioned in the weekly digest.
>

Matthieu mentioned the following a bit later:

> I however like being informed of projects and clients releases.
> They don't happen often and they are interesting to me as an
> operator (projects) and consumer of the OpenStack API (project
>  clients).

Libraries are not directly affecting users, but clients are: python-*client
and OSC and the like.  I'd be on the fence re the SDK (when it becomes
official) but it is intended for downstream consumers, app devs mostly
rather than end-users and operators.

dt

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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-11-20 Thread Thierry Carrez 
Tom Fifield wrote:
> I'd like to get your thoughts about the OpenStack-Announce list.
> 
> We describe the list as:
> 
> """
> Subscribe to this list to receive important announcements from the
> OpenStack Release Team and OpenStack Security Team.
> 
> This is a low-traffic, read-only list.
> """
> 
> Up until July 2015, it was used for the following:
> * Community Weekly Newsletter
> * Stable branch release notifications
> * Major (i.e. Six-monthly) release notifications
> * Important security advisories

Actually it's all security advisories, not just "important" ones.

> and had on average 5-10 messages per month.
> 
> After July 2015, the following was added:
> * Release notifications for clients and libraries (one email per
> library, includes contributor-focused projects)
> 
> resulting in an average of 70-80 messages per month.
> 
> Personally, I no longer consider this volume "low traffic" :)
> 
> In addition, I have been recently receiving feedback that users have
> been unsubscribing from or deleting without reading the list's posts.
> 
> That isn't good news, given this is supposed to be the place where we
> can make very important announcements and have them read.
> 
> One simple suggestion might be to batch the week's client/library
> release notifications into a single email. Another might be to look at
> the audience for the list, what kind of notifications they want, and
> chose the announcements differently.
> 
> What do you think we should do to ensure the announce list remains useful?

-announce was originally designed as an "all-hands" channel for
announcements affecting everyone. It then morphed into the place users
wanting to keep up with upstream news directly affecting them would
subscribe to. Since only the Release management team (back when it
included the VMT and stable maint) would post to it, it became a
"release announcement" mailing-list. So when we started to make
intermediary releases of "stuff" we just posted everything there.

Mailing-lists are not primarily defined by their topic, they are defined
by their audiences. The problem we have now with -announce is that we
forgot that and started to define it by topic. So we need to take a step
back and redefine it by audience, and then see which topics are appropriate.

We could definitely go back to "the place users wanting to keep up with
upstream news directly affecting them should subscribe to", and post only:

- user-facing service releases (type:service deliverables), on stable
branches or development branches
- security vulnerabilities and security notes
- weekly upstream development news (the one Mike compiles), and include
a digest of all library/ancillary services releases of the week in there

Library releases are not "directly affecting users", so not urgent news
for "users wanting to keep up with upstream news" and can wait to be
mentioned in the weekly digest.

The community weekly newsletter is not "upstream news directly affecting
users" but more of a general digest on openstack news & blogposts, and
would be posted on the openstack blog.

How does that sound ?

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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[openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-11-19 Thread Tom Fifield 

Hi all,

I'd like to get your thoughts about the OpenStack-Announce list.

We describe the list as:

"""
Subscribe to this list to receive important announcements from the 
OpenStack Release Team and OpenStack Security Team.


This is a low-traffic, read-only list.
"""

Up until July 2015, it was used for the following:
* Community Weekly Newsletter
* Stable branch release notifications
* Major (i.e. Six-monthly) release notifications
* Important security advisories

and had on average 5-10 messages per month.

After July 2015, the following was added:
* Release notifications for clients and libraries (one email per 
library, includes contributor-focused projects)


resulting in an average of 70-80 messages per month.


Personally, I no longer consider this volume "low traffic" :)

In addition, I have been recently receiving feedback that users have 
been unsubscribing from or deleting without reading the list's posts.


That isn't good news, given this is supposed to be the place where we 
can make very important announcements and have them read.


One simple suggestion might be to batch the week's client/library 
release notifications into a single email. Another might be to look at 
the audience for the list, what kind of notifications they want, and 
chose the announcements differently.


What do you think we should do to ensure the announce list remains useful?



Regards,


Tom

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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-11-19 Thread Mathieu Gagné 
On 2015-11-19 11:00 PM, Tom Fifield wrote:
>
> Personally, I no longer consider this volume "low traffic" :)
> 
> In addition, I have been recently receiving feedback that users have
> been unsubscribing from or deleting without reading the list's posts.
> 
> That isn't good news, given this is supposed to be the place where we
> can make very important announcements and have them read.
> 
> One simple suggestion might be to batch the week's client/library
> release notifications into a single email. Another might be to look at
> the audience for the list, what kind of notifications they want, and
> chose the announcements differently.
> 
> What do you think we should do to ensure the announce list remains useful?
> 

I think we should first look into the target audience.

I don't see "dev" in the list name and I suspect non-developers people
subscribe in hope to get "important announcements".

I however like being informed of projects and clients releases. They
don't happen often and they are interesting to me as an operator
(projects) and consumer of the OpenStack API (project clients).

I unfortunately don't care much about oslo libraries which are internal
projects consumed by the OpenStack developers as dependencies of the
other major projects. Receiving ~15-25 per week for such releases is too
much for me.

If people care about releases, maybe there should be a openstack-release
list where you can subscribe to tags you care about.

On a side note, I subscribed to openstack-security in hope to receive
security notices but instead they are sent to openstack-announce and
lost among all those release notices.

However, if we move security notices to openstack-security and release
notices to openstack-release, I don't know what's left to read about in
openstack-announce except the "OpenStack Community Weekly Newsletter".

Not much strong suggestion on my side. Maybe we should restrict it to
security notices and major project milestone and stable releases.

-- 
Mathieu

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Re: [openstack-dev] OpenStack-Announce List

2015-11-19 Thread Clint Byrum 
Excerpts from Tom Fifield's message of 2015-11-19 20:00:20 -0800:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'd like to get your thoughts about the OpenStack-Announce list.
> 
> We describe the list as:
> 
> """
> Subscribe to this list to receive important announcements from the 
> OpenStack Release Team and OpenStack Security Team.
> 
> This is a low-traffic, read-only list.
> """
> 
> Up until July 2015, it was used for the following:
> * Community Weekly Newsletter
> * Stable branch release notifications
> * Major (i.e. Six-monthly) release notifications
> * Important security advisories
> 
> and had on average 5-10 messages per month.
> 
> After July 2015, the following was added:
> * Release notifications for clients and libraries (one email per 
> library, includes contributor-focused projects)
> 
> resulting in an average of 70-80 messages per month.
> 
> 
> Personally, I no longer consider this volume "low traffic" :)
> 
> In addition, I have been recently receiving feedback that users have 
> been unsubscribing from or deleting without reading the list's posts.
> 
> That isn't good news, given this is supposed to be the place where we 
> can make very important announcements and have them read.
> 
> One simple suggestion might be to batch the week's client/library 
> release notifications into a single email. Another might be to look at 
> the audience for the list, what kind of notifications they want, and 
> chose the announcements differently.
> 

+1 for that. Or just move them to openstack-dev, and include a summary in
the newsletter. I personally have them auto-archived (something I almost
never do) because I can't actually do anything with the information
in them.

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