Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-07-05 Thread Lance Bragstad


On 06/30/2017 04:38 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Mike Perez wrote:
>> [...]
>> What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a
>> champion volunteer to each goal to help?
> It feels like most agree that having champions would help. Do we have
> any volunteer for the currently-proposed Pike goals ? As a reminder,
> those are:
>
> * Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1]
> * Move policy and policy docs into code [2]
I can champion the policy docs changes.
>
> [1]
> https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html
> [2] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/469954/
>




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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-30 Thread Chandan kumar
On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Thierry Carrez  wrote:
> Mike Perez wrote:
>> [...]
>> What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a
>> champion volunteer to each goal to help?
>
> It feels like most agree that having champions would help. Do we have
> any volunteer for the currently-proposed Pike goals ? As a reminder,
> those are:
>
> * Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1]

I would like to volunteer for Split Tempest plugins into separate
repos/projects .

> * Move policy and policy docs into code [2]
>
> [1]
> https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html
> [2] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/469954/
>

Thanks,

Chandan Kumar

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-30 Thread Thierry Carrez
Mike Perez wrote:
> [...]
> What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a
> champion volunteer to each goal to help?

It feels like most agree that having champions would help. Do we have
any volunteer for the currently-proposed Pike goals ? As a reminder,
those are:

* Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1]
* Move policy and policy docs into code [2]

[1]
https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html
[2] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/469954/

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-27 Thread Sean Dague
On 06/27/2017 04:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> gordon chung wrote:
>> do we know why they're not being completed? indifference? lack of resources?
> 
> I would say it's a mix of reasons. Sometimes it's a resource issue, but
> most of the time it's a prioritization issue (everyone waiting for
> someone else to pick it up), and in remaining cases it's pure
> procrastination (it's not that much work, I'll do it tomorrow).
> 
>> i like the champion idea although i think its scope should be expanded. 
>> i didn't mention this in meeting and the following has no legit research 
>> behind it so feel free to disregard but i imagine some of the 
>> indifference towards the goals is because:
>>
>> - it's often trivial (but important) work
>> many projects are already flooded with a lot of non-trivial, 
>> self-interest goals AND a lot trivial (and unimportant) copy/paste 
>> patches already so it's hard to feel passionate and find motivation to 
>> do it. the champion stuff may help here.
>>
>> - there is a disconnect between the TC and the projects.
>> it seems there is a requirement for the projects to engage the TC but 
>> not necessarily the other way around. for many projects, i'm fairly 
>> certain nothing would change whether they actively engaged the TC or 
>> just left relationship as is and had minimal/no interaction. i apologise 
>> if that's blunt but just based on my own prior experience.
>>
>> i don't know if the TC wants to become PMs but having the goals i feel 
>> sort of requires the TC to be PMs and to actually interact with the PTLs 
>> regularly, not just about the goal itself but the project and it's role 
>> in openstack. maybe it's as designed, but if there's no relationship 
>> there, i don't think 'TC wants you to do this' will get something done. 
>> it's in the same vein as how it's easier to get a patch approved if 
>> you're engaged in a project for some time as oppose to a patch out of 
>> the blue (disclaimer: i did not study sociology).
> When we look at goals, the main issue is generally not writing the
> patches, it's more about getting that prioritized in code review and
> tracking completion. That's where I think champions will help. Sometimes
> teams will need help writing patches, sometimes they will just need
> reminders to prioritize code review up. Someone has to look at the big
> picture and care for the completion of the goal. Having champions will
> also make it look a lot less like 'TC wants you to do this' and more
> like 'we are in this together, completing this goal will make openstack
> better'.

++

Having worked on a number of things that have touched a bunch of
projects, it turns out that the needs of every project are different.
The reason that multi project efforts seem to take so long, or die out,
is they need a reasonable amount of project management to be effective.

There are lots of demands on teams, and having someone that can
represent a bigger goal, knows what it looks like when complete, and can
go to the affected teams with "here is the next one thing I need from
you to make this whole" really speeds up the process. At least 2 - 3x
(if not more).

-Sean

-- 
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http://dague.net

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-27 Thread Thierry Carrez
gordon chung wrote:
> do we know why they're not being completed? indifference? lack of resources?

I would say it's a mix of reasons. Sometimes it's a resource issue, but
most of the time it's a prioritization issue (everyone waiting for
someone else to pick it up), and in remaining cases it's pure
procrastination (it's not that much work, I'll do it tomorrow).

> i like the champion idea although i think its scope should be expanded. 
> i didn't mention this in meeting and the following has no legit research 
> behind it so feel free to disregard but i imagine some of the 
> indifference towards the goals is because:
> 
> - it's often trivial (but important) work
> many projects are already flooded with a lot of non-trivial, 
> self-interest goals AND a lot trivial (and unimportant) copy/paste 
> patches already so it's hard to feel passionate and find motivation to 
> do it. the champion stuff may help here.
> 
> - there is a disconnect between the TC and the projects.
> it seems there is a requirement for the projects to engage the TC but 
> not necessarily the other way around. for many projects, i'm fairly 
> certain nothing would change whether they actively engaged the TC or 
> just left relationship as is and had minimal/no interaction. i apologise 
> if that's blunt but just based on my own prior experience.
> 
> i don't know if the TC wants to become PMs but having the goals i feel 
> sort of requires the TC to be PMs and to actually interact with the PTLs 
> regularly, not just about the goal itself but the project and it's role 
> in openstack. maybe it's as designed, but if there's no relationship 
> there, i don't think 'TC wants you to do this' will get something done. 
> it's in the same vein as how it's easier to get a patch approved if 
> you're engaged in a project for some time as oppose to a patch out of 
> the blue (disclaimer: i did not study sociology).
When we look at goals, the main issue is generally not writing the
patches, it's more about getting that prioritized in code review and
tracking completion. That's where I think champions will help. Sometimes
teams will need help writing patches, sometimes they will just need
reminders to prioritize code review up. Someone has to look at the big
picture and care for the completion of the goal. Having champions will
also make it look a lot less like 'TC wants you to do this' and more
like 'we are in this together, completing this goal will make openstack
better'.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-23 Thread Kendall Nelson
I think more than one champion is helpful in some cases, but its dangerous
when you get more than two that each person thinks the other two will
handle things unless they are very communicative with one another :)

Somewhere else in this thread the idea of a committee and a chair was
mentioned which seems like a good way of handling it. One primary point of
contact that delegates to the others when they need help.

-Kendall (diablo_rojo)

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 1:49 PM Lance Bragstad  wrote:

>
>
> On 06/22/2017 12:57 PM, Mike Perez wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> In the community wide goals, we started as a group discussing goals at the
> OpenStack Forum. Then we brought those ideas to the mailing list to
> continue the discussion and include those that were not able to be at the
> forum. The discussions help the TC decide on what goals we will do for the
> Queens release. The goals that have the most support so far are:
>
> 1) Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1]
> 2) Move policy and policy docs into code [2]
>
> In the recent TC meeting [3] it was recognized that goals in Pike haven't
> been going as smoothly and not being completed. There will be a follow up
> thread to cover gathering feedback in an etherpad later, but for now the TC
> has discussed potential actions to improve completing goals in Queens.
>
> An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions", who
> are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with tracking
> status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be interested
> volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected goal and its
> implementation to be a trusted person.
>
> What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a
> champion volunteer to each goal to help? Are there ideas that weren't
> mentioned in the TC meeting [3]?
>
> I like this idea. Some projects might have existing context about a
> particular goal built up before it's even proposed, others might not. I
> think this will help share knowledge across the projects that understand
> the goal with projects who might not be as familiar with it (even though
> the community goal proposal process attempts to fix that).
>
> Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be
> distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated?
>
>
> [1] -
> https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html
> [2] -
> https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg106392.html
> [3] -
> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-06-20-20.01.log.html#l-10
>
> —
> Mike Perez
>
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-23 Thread gordon chung


On 22/06/17 01:57 PM, Mike Perez wrote:
> An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions",
> who are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with
> tracking status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be
> interested volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected
> goal and its implementation to be a trusted person.
>
> What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a
> champion volunteer to each goal to help? Are there ideas that weren't
> mentioned in the TC meeting [3]?

do we know why they're not being completed? indifference? lack of resources?

i like the champion idea although i think its scope should be expanded. 
i didn't mention this in meeting and the following has no legit research 
behind it so feel free to disregard but i imagine some of the 
indifference towards the goals is because:

- it's often trivial (but important) work
many projects are already flooded with a lot of non-trivial, 
self-interest goals AND a lot trivial (and unimportant) copy/paste 
patches already so it's hard to feel passionate and find motivation to 
do it. the champion stuff may help here.

- there is a disconnect between the TC and the projects.
it seems there is a requirement for the projects to engage the TC but 
not necessarily the other way around. for many projects, i'm fairly 
certain nothing would change whether they actively engaged the TC or 
just left relationship as is and had minimal/no interaction. i apologise 
if that's blunt but just based on my own prior experience.

i don't know if the TC wants to become PMs but having the goals i feel 
sort of requires the TC to be PMs and to actually interact with the PTLs 
regularly, not just about the goal itself but the project and it's role 
in openstack. maybe it's as designed, but if there's no relationship 
there, i don't think 'TC wants you to do this' will get something done. 
it's in the same vein as how it's easier to get a patch approved if 
you're engaged in a project for some time as oppose to a patch out of 
the blue (disclaimer: i did not study sociology).

just my random thoughts.

cheers,
-- 
gord
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-23 Thread Harry Rybacki
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Sean Dague  wrote:
> On 06/23/2017 05:44 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>> Lance Bragstad wrote:
>>> Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be
>>> distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated?
>>
>> I'm a bit torn on that. On one hand work can definitely (and probably
>> should) be covered by multiple people. But I like the idea that it's
>> someone's responsibility to ensure that progress is made (even if that
>> person ends up delegating all the work). The trick is, it's easy for
>> everyone to assume that the work is covered since someone has signed up
>> for it.
>>
>> It's like the PTL situation -- work is done by the group and it's great
>> to have a clear go-to person to keep track of things, until the PTL has
>> to do everything because they end up as the default assignee for everything.
>
> I agree, there should be a single name here. They can delegate and
> collect up a group, but at the end of the day one person should be
> responsible for it.
>
Aye, this sounds much like a committee chair. Ideally, even if in name
only, it provides a single point of communication for folks regardless
of whether they are directly working on the goal or not.

Two points: It may require some additional monitoring from the
respective PTL and, we should have have a plan in place for shifting
responsibilities if a given champion can no longer take on the role
(illness, injury, work changes, etc...).

- Harry

> -Sean
>
> --
> Sean Dague
> http://dague.net
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-23 Thread Sean Dague
On 06/23/2017 05:44 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Lance Bragstad wrote:
>> Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be
>> distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated?
> 
> I'm a bit torn on that. On one hand work can definitely (and probably
> should) be covered by multiple people. But I like the idea that it's
> someone's responsibility to ensure that progress is made (even if that
> person ends up delegating all the work). The trick is, it's easy for
> everyone to assume that the work is covered since someone has signed up
> for it.
> 
> It's like the PTL situation -- work is done by the group and it's great
> to have a clear go-to person to keep track of things, until the PTL has
> to do everything because they end up as the default assignee for everything.

I agree, there should be a single name here. They can delegate and
collect up a group, but at the end of the day one person should be
responsible for it.

-Sean

-- 
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http://dague.net

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-23 Thread Thierry Carrez
Lance Bragstad wrote:
> Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be
> distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated?

I'm a bit torn on that. On one hand work can definitely (and probably
should) be covered by multiple people. But I like the idea that it's
someone's responsibility to ensure that progress is made (even if that
person ends up delegating all the work). The trick is, it's easy for
everyone to assume that the work is covered since someone has signed up
for it.

It's like the PTL situation -- work is done by the group and it's great
to have a clear go-to person to keep track of things, until the PTL has
to do everything because they end up as the default assignee for everything.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)



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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-22 Thread Lingxian Kong
I like the idea, which means some projects lack of resources could benefit
more from the whole community :)


Cheers,
Lingxian Kong (Larry)

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:57 AM, Mike Perez  wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> In the community wide goals, we started as a group discussing goals at the
> OpenStack Forum. Then we brought those ideas to the mailing list to
> continue the discussion and include those that were not able to be at the
> forum. The discussions help the TC decide on what goals we will do for the
> Queens release. The goals that have the most support so far are:
>
> 1) Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1]
> 2) Move policy and policy docs into code [2]
>
> In the recent TC meeting [3] it was recognized that goals in Pike haven't
> been going as smoothly and not being completed. There will be a follow up
> thread to cover gathering feedback in an etherpad later, but for now the TC
> has discussed potential actions to improve completing goals in Queens.
>
> An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions", who
> are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with tracking
> status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be interested
> volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected goal and its
> implementation to be a trusted person.
>
> What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a
> champion volunteer to each goal to help? Are there ideas that weren't
> mentioned in the TC meeting [3]?
>
> [1] - https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/
> split-tempest-plugins.html
> [2] - https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.
> openstack.org/msg106392.html
> [3] - http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-
> 06-20-20.01.log.html#l-10
>
> —
> Mike Perez
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-22 Thread Sean McGinnis
> >
> > An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions",
> > who are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with
> > tracking status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be
> > interested volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected
> > goal and its implementation to be a trusted person.
> >
> I like this idea. Some projects might have existing context about a
> particular goal built up before it's even proposed, others might not. I
> think this will help share knowledge across the projects that understand
> the goal with projects who might not be as familiar with it (even though
> the community goal proposal process attempts to fix that).
> 
> Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be
> distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated?

I like this idea, and I would think it would be "one or more champions" in
some cases. I thought the uWSGI goal was a great example of the need for
this. There were some that understood this very well and what needed to
happen in each project. Some projects understood this too and were able to
make the change easily, while others had (have) to do a lot of catching up
to understand what needs to be done.

Rather than making a bunch of people take this time to get up to speed, I
think it makes a lot of sense to be able to have a few people just take
care of it. Or at least be a good, and identified, resource for others to
go to to understand what needs to be done.


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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all][ptl] Most Supported Queens Goals and Improving Goal Completion

2017-06-22 Thread Lance Bragstad


On 06/22/2017 12:57 PM, Mike Perez wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> In the community wide goals, we started as a group discussing goals at
> the OpenStack Forum. Then we brought those ideas to the mailing list
> to continue the discussion and include those that were not able to be
> at the forum. The discussions help the TC decide on what goals we will
> do for the Queens release. The goals that have the most support so far
> are:
>
> 1) Split Tempest plugins into separate repos/projects [1]
> 2) Move policy and policy docs into code [2]
>
> In the recent TC meeting [3] it was recognized that goals in Pike
> haven't been going as smoothly and not being completed. There will be
> a follow up thread to cover gathering feedback in an etherpad later,
> but for now the TC has discussed potential actions to improve
> completing goals in Queens.
>
> An idea that came from the meeting was creating a role of "Champions",
> who are the drum beaters to get a goal done by helping projects with
> tracking status and sometimes doing code patches. These would be
> interested volunteers who have a good understanding of their selected
> goal and its implementation to be a trusted person.
>
> What do people think before we bikeshed on the name? Would having a
> champion volunteer to each goal to help? Are there ideas that weren't
> mentioned in the TC meeting [3]?
I like this idea. Some projects might have existing context about a
particular goal built up before it's even proposed, others might not. I
think this will help share knowledge across the projects that understand
the goal with projects who might not be as familiar with it (even though
the community goal proposal process attempts to fix that).

Is the role of a goal "champion" limited to a single person? Can it be
distributed across multiple people pending actions are well communicated?
>
> [1]
> - https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/queens/split-tempest-plugins.html
> [2]
> - 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg106392.html
> [3]
> - 
> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-06-20-20.01.log.html#l-10
>
> —
> Mike Perez
>
>
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> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
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