Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 08/30/2018 11:33 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: > [...] >> I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in >> multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. > > I understand where you're coming from I'm coming from the time when OpenStack had a list on launchpad where everything was mixed. We did the split because it was really annoying to have everything mixed. > I was accustomed to communities where developers had one mailing > list, users had another, and whenever a user asked a question on the > developer mailing list they were told to go away and bother the user > mailing list instead (not even a good, old-fashioned "RTFM" for > their trouble). I don't think that's what we are doing. Usually, when someone does the mistake, we do reply to him/her, at the same time pointing to the correct list. > You're probably intimately familiar with at least > one of these communities. ;) I know what you have in mind! Indeed, in that list, it happens that some people are a bit harsh to users. Hopefully, the folks in OpenStack devel aren't like this. > As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is > actually an antisocial behavior pattern In the OpenStack lists, every day, some developers take the time to answer users. So I don't see what there is to fix. > I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the > development work which is underway, come to understand it, and > become part of that process. Users are very much welcome in our -dev list. I don't think there's a problem here. > Requiring them to have their > conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message. In many places and occasion, we've sent the correct message. On 08/30/2018 11:45 PM, Jimmy McArthur wrote: > IMO this is easily solved by tagging. If emails are properly tagged > (which they typically are), most email clients will properly sort on > rules and you can just auto-delete if you're 100% not interested in a > particular topic. This topically works with folks used to send tags. It doesn't for new comers, which is what you see with newbies coming to ask questions. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo) ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
I think the more we can reduce the ML sprawl the better. I also recall us discussing having some documentation or way of notifying net new signups of how to interact with the ML successfully. An example was having some general guidelines around tagging. Also as a maintainer for at least one of the mailing lists over the past 6+ months I have to inquire about how that will happen going forward which again could be part of this documentation/initial message. Also there are many times I miss messages that for one reason or another do not hit the proper mailing list. I mean we could dive into the minutia or start up the mountain of why keeping things the way they are is worst than making this change and vice versa but I am willing to bet there are more advantages than disadvantages. On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:45 PM Jimmy McArthur wrote: > > > Jeremy Stanley wrote: > > On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: > [...] > > I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in > multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. > > IMO this is easily solved by tagging. If emails are properly tagged > (which they typically are), most email clients will properly sort on rules > and you can just auto-delete if you're 100% not interested in a particular > topic. > Yes, there are definitely ways to go about discarding unwanted mail automagically or not seeing it at all. And to be honest I think if we are relying on so many separate MLs to do that for us it is better community wide for the responsibility for that to be on individuals. It becomes very tiring and inefficient time wise to have to go through the various issues of the way things are now; cross-posting is a great example that is steadily getting worse. > SNIP > > As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is > actually an antisocial behavior pattern, and actively harmful to the > user base. I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the > development work which is underway, come to understand it, and > become part of that process. Requiring them to have their > conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message. > > I really and truly believe that it has become a blocker for our > community. Conversations sent to multiple lists inherently splinter and we > end up with different groups coming up with different solutions for a > single problem. Literally the opposite desired result of sending things to > multiple lists. I believe bringing these groups together, with tags, will > solve a lot of immediate problems. It will also have an added bonus of > allowing people "catching up" on the community to look to a single place > for a thread i/o 1-5 separate lists. It's better in both the short and > long term. > +1 > > Cheers, > Jimmy > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: > openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribehttp://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators > -- Kind regards, Melvin Hillsman mrhills...@gmail.com mobile: (832) 264-2646 ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
Jeremy Stanley wrote: On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: [...] I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. IMO this is easily solved by tagging. If emails are properly tagged (which they typically are), most email clients will properly sort on rules and you can just auto-delete if you're 100% not interested in a particular topic. SNIP As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is actually an antisocial behavior pattern, and actively harmful to the user base. I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the development work which is underway, come to understand it, and become part of that process. Requiring them to have their conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message. I really and truly believe that it has become a blocker for our community. Conversations sent to multiple lists inherently splinter and we end up with different groups coming up with different solutions for a single problem. Literally the opposite desired result of sending things to multiple lists. I believe bringing these groups together, with tags, will solve a lot of immediate problems. It will also have an added bonus of allowing people "catching up" on the community to look to a single place for a thread i/o 1-5 separate lists. It's better in both the short and long term. Cheers, Jimmy __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: [...] > I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in > multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. I understand where you're coming from, and I used to feel similarly. I was accustomed to communities where developers had one mailing list, users had another, and whenever a user asked a question on the developer mailing list they were told to go away and bother the user mailing list instead (not even a good, old-fashioned "RTFM" for their trouble). You're probably intimately familiar with at least one of these communities. ;) As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is actually an antisocial behavior pattern, and actively harmful to the user base. I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the development work which is underway, come to understand it, and become part of that process. Requiring them to have their conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message. -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 2018-08-30 12:57:31 -0600 (-0600), Chris Friesen wrote: [...] > Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list? That > could be a busy list for someone who's just asking a simple usage > question. A counterargument though... projecting the number of unique posts to all four lists combined for this year (both based on trending for the past several years and also simply scaling the count of messages this year so far based on how many days are left) comes out roughly equal to the number of posts which were made to the general openstack mailing list in 2012. > Alternately, if we are going to merge everything then why not just > use the "openstack" mailing list since it already exists and there > are references to it on the web. This was an option we discussed in the "One Community" forum session as well. There seemed to be a slight preference for making a new -disscuss list and retiring the old general one. I see either as an potential solution here. > (Or do you want to force people to move to something new to make them > recognize that something has changed?) That was one of the arguments made. Also I believe we have a *lot* of "black hole" subscribers who aren't actually following that list but whose addresses aren't bouncing new posts we send them for any of a number of possible reasons. -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 08/30/2018 08:57 PM, Chris Friesen wrote: > On 08/30/2018 11:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > >> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list >> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other >> four. > > Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list? I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. Thomas ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 08/30/2018 11:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other four. Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list? That could be a busy list for someone who's just asking a simple usage question. Alternately, if we are going to merge everything then why not just use the "openstack" mailing list since it already exists and there are references to it on the web. (Or do you want to force people to move to something new to make them recognize that something has changed?) Chris ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
Absolutely support merging. Jeremy Stanley wrote: The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides: 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different place than many of the people who have the answers to those questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users deeper). 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap between them; combining those lists would have been a better solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be. 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which they're subscribed, 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of the various cross-posts if these lists were combined. The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates, distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average, after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]). None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera. As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version we're currently using. Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;) [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators